![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 58 to 82 of 82. Go back in thread:
Posted by pullmarine on September 28, 2000, at 16:25:03
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed, posted by stjames on September 28, 2000, at 11:09:17
where did i read about the psychosis. i didn't read it, i witnessed it in four people including myself!
> Futhermore, and as you mentioned, there are many types of weed, with different potencies, moany of wich can no longer be considered as a soft drug, but as a hallucinogenic.
>
As for your comment about a finite number of receptors, and not being able to get higher beyond a certain point... I have no idea where u get this information. I do know that I was hospitalized and had to take neuroleptics for psychosis after I smoked a very large amount of pot. I had become convinced that people were following me and that everyone knew everything there was to know about me, and that people were going through my garbage to get data on me, etc...
definatly not a fun trip.
If you want more data on the negative effects of marijuana, check out the DSM IV, and you will see more (documented)information about how dangerous pot can be.
> james here.....
>
> Hallucinogenic, not really. It is hard to classify pot, chemically it looks somewhat
> like a psychedelic and as it potentaites
> other psychedelics, as do many psychedelics,
> so some call it a psychedelic. However no one
> will ever trip on pot alone. The body has THC receptor sites, a finite number, once they are filled you get no higher. The level to bring on visions is far above this level. Psychotic reactions from long term use.....that is not my experience from reading and otherwise. Some people
> do have negative reactions when they smoke pot, therefor they avoid it. Long term used does carry the possibility of amotavational syndrome. Where did you read this about long term and psychosis ?
>
> james
Posted by stjames on September 29, 2000, at 13:49:21
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed, posted by pullmarine on September 28, 2000, at 16:25:03
> >
> As for your comment about a finite number of receptors, and not being able to get higher beyond a certain point... I have no idea where u get this information.James here.....
Well, it is commonlly known. Many meds/drugs action is through receptor sites. GABA, opioids, and many other drugs/meds have receptor sites, and there are only so many sites in the body for a given med/drug. Therefor, finite. The drug/med fills the receptor sites till all are occupied.
Several factors determine how long the site is occupied and once the site opens up it can be refilled. It is common to think of this as a lock
and key, receptor sites only fit very specific molicules.In terms of pot, an interesting question is "why do we have a THC receptor ". I do not question that a few may have a psychotic reaction after short or long term, these numbers are very small. People have been smoking weed for thousands of years, no flipper babies yet.
James
Posted by JohnL on September 29, 2000, at 14:42:18
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed, posted by SteveL on September 27, 2000, at 17:43:28
This underscores very well my perception of correcting chemical imbalance. If someone has a particular chemical imbalance that marijuana corrects, then they may indeed find it useful as a type of medication, taken in a very similar fashion as a medication, and not taken to excess for getting high or recreation. In a person without a pre-existing marijuana-responsive chemicial imbalance however, that person will instead experience the full euphoria or marijuana and likely abuse it. It's kind of like Ritalin...if someone truly has ADHD or ADD brain chemistry, Ritalin will not get them high. It will instead make them feel more normal, because it is correcting something deficient. For someone without ADD chemistry however, they could like get a high that is similar to cocaine instead.
My psychiatrist told me that marijuana increases dopamine 6-fold. That partially explains the euphoria; sometimes psychosis-like symptoms; sometimes paranoid feelings; and sometimes rapid heartbeat...all results of massive dopamine flow. The effect is short lived however. But for a chronic marijuana user, such elevated dopamine levels cause down regulation of the receptors, so they are less and less responsive over time, and thus the tolerance buildup experienced by chronic users, and the need for larger quantities and higher quality to get high. Where a tiny pinjoint of mediocre weed used to do the job, the chronic user now needs a premium grade joint the size of a finger to get the same buzz.
Any way you look at it, I personally think marijuana has its merits, even though my pot days are behind me (too darn expensive, and risky to grow). If it works like a medication for someone, cool. If it works like a crutch, not cool. If it fixes a chemical imbalance, cool. If it elevates chemical balance beyond normal, not cool. For someone truly using it as a medication, it would be needed either on-demand--like benzos and anxiety attacks for example--or used in regularly scheduled equal size dosing routines just like a medicine. And if the user is getting high, they have gone beyond the point of medication.
John
Posted by SteveL on September 29, 2000, at 19:18:34
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed, posted by JohnL on September 29, 2000, at 14:42:18
A follow up to my earlier post:
In my non-medical use of cannabis, and the experience of many friends over a period of several decades, ever increasing doses are not required to attain the same effect. Even after a period of substantially heavier use backing off for a few days or less restores the original potency. Tolerance is real, but rather short term.
If even half of the sweeping claims of gross detrimental effects were true, many people I know, myself included, should be complete idiots by now, if not utterly insane; yet they are well regarded, working members of society with stable families and wide community involvement. I can’t think of anyone I’ve known who really screwed up their life with pot alone; no proof of complete harmlessness, of course. This can be powerful stuff, and I’ve seen it ill-used as well.
It’s worth pointing out that those of us who find our way to this site do not represent a statistically balanced cross section of the general population. Most of us have suffered some kind of significant neurological/psychological difficulties, some quite severe (near-fatal epileptic seizures and their after effects in my case), and should be careful about making unqualified generalizations from our own experiences, and those of our associates.
That said, I will only add that many people have found the ancient herb to be a very useful creative, even spiritual catalyst, and make no apologies. Call it “getting high” if you wish, but if the experiences or insights thus obtained pass the test of later, “non stoned” review, even objectively verifiable technological concepts (I’m not kidding), then what? I’ve gotten some of my best ideas this way, translated into essays, poetry, and even sophisticated working electronic devices, well reviewed by many others (non-users) who had no idea how I did it.
This is not meant as an advertisement for any drug, sanctioned or otherwise, and I stand by my earlier caveats. These matters are highly individual and personal, and ultimately we must all find our own way.
Thanks again for your comments, I wish you all well.
I really don’t think I’m quite psychotic yet, but I have to go now; my glorious alien masters are calling from the invisible Mothership--I hear and obey, Oh Great Ones!
Posted by Kath on September 30, 2000, at 8:44:19
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed, posted by stjames on September 28, 2000, at 11:09:17
Hi james,
I'm glad you mention amotivational syndrome. Obviously it doesn't happen to all pot-users. It's no small event, though. My 16-yr-old son's life pretty-well ground to a halt as a result of smoking pot for about a year.
He ended up dropping out of school with a Grade 9 education, doing serious damage to his relationship with his Dad & I, eventually getting kicked out of our home, eventually loosing all his friends & now feeling trapped, lonely, bored, etc.
At present, he's decided to take a pretty positive step for himself & will be away for a while to (hopefully) accomplish it. He's living here clean while he waits. He's a totally different person. Who knows what will happen. All I can do is pray.
Interesting point, though: Why do we have a THC receptor site? !!
Hope you're doing okay.
Cheers, Kath> Futhermore, and as you mentioned, there are many types of weed, with different potencies, moany of wich can no longer be considered as a soft drug, but as a hallucinogenic.
>
> james here.....
>
> Hallucinogenic, not really. It is hard to classify pot, chemically it looks somewhat
> like a psychedelic and as it potentaites
> other psychedelics, as do many psychedelics,
> so some call it a psychedelic. However no one
> will ever trip on pot alone. The body has THC receptor sites, a finite number, once they are filled you get no higher. The level to bring on visions is far above this level. Psychotic reactions from long term use.....that is not my experience from reading and otherwise. Some people
> do have negative reactions when they smoke pot, therefor they avoid it. Long term used does carry the possibility of amotavational syndrome. Where did you read this about long term and psychosis ?
>
> james
Posted by Joy Robins on October 3, 2000, at 0:42:37
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed, posted by JohnL on September 29, 2000, at 14:42:18
I was interested in what you wrote about Marijuana increasing dopamine levels 6 fold. My psychiatrist prescribed Seroquel for me at a low dosage to raise my dopamine levels--mostly I felt tired taking it, but sometimes felt as if I were stoned--may have just been tiredness. My question is if there is any antidepressant medication that would closely resemble or match the qualities of pot. I find the day after I have smoked pot I usually am much more relaxed, creative, positive, appreciative of life, open, sociable--I wish this were my normal state--marijuana is too draining for me to use on any kind of regular basis though--similar to caffeine in its effects for me--I can't handle caffeine either. Also, I don't like the lack of clarity with pot--but it certainly relieves any social anxiety I might have, and often makes me feel relaxed and more grounded. Any ideas input would be appreciated. Thanks, Joy
Posted by TK on October 11, 2000, at 22:54:56
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed » JohnL, posted by Joy Robins on October 3, 2000, at 0:42:37
> Hi Joy,
I have told my spouse and friends for about 10 yrs that pot alleviates my depression and anxiety and elevates my libido. Of course I am afraid to tell my MD that I use pot.I do wonder if it has negative effects on the anti-depressants I was recently put on. Does anyone know if pot interferes w/ Rxs such as: wellbutrin/ativan/zyorexa/effexor/seroquel? I am currently on just the wellbutrin/ativan as needed and started zyprexa x5 days ago for mood swings. Thanks for any input. TK
Posted by Chimera0 on March 28, 2001, at 18:03:42
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed, posted by TK on October 11, 2000, at 22:54:56
> > Hi Joy,
> I have told my spouse and friends for about 10 yrs that pot alleviates my depression and anxiety and elevates my libido. Of course I am afraid to tell my MD that I use pot.I do wonder if it has negative effects on the anti-depressants I was recently put on. Does anyone know if pot interferes w/ Rxs such as: wellbutrin/ativan/zyorexa/effexor/seroquel? I am currently on just the wellbutrin/ativan as needed and started zyprexa x5 days ago for mood swings. Thanks for any input. TK
Tell your MD about your marijuana use! Part of being an MD involves some sort of legally binding patient doctor confidentiality that will prohibit them from alerting authorities(if this is what concerns you). Your MD needs to know this information to correctly help you and will not hold it against you(i just got out of an evaluation in which i laid out my drug history without any negative affects, and i feel that it helped him understand my problems better).--Former heavy pot smoker
Posted by Kiki on March 29, 2001, at 12:28:36
In reply to BuSpar, posted by Sam on January 9, 2000, at 22:35:35
I also tried BuSpar. Not only did it not work, it made me groggy, moody, and very lightheaded.
Posted by wendy b. on November 21, 2001, at 10:33:02
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed » JohnL, posted by Joy Robins on October 3, 2000, at 0:42:37
This thread's been quiet a long time, and we've all had PLENTY of time to look for the answers (JahL, Cam, Mitchell, etc). Soooooo -
I'm wondering about the following:
Does Marijuana/cannabis/THC interfere with the mechanism of drug action of other prescription psychoactive drugs? If so, what is that mechanism? Is it true, as JohnL's doctor claimed, that smoking weed can increase dopamine levels 6-fold?
The reason I ask is because I had a terrible session yesterday with my therapist (who also prescribes meds, she is a nurse practitioner specializing in psychiatry). Besides not having much patience with my depression ("I'm not going to sit here and allow you to become a victim of this illness"), she won't alter my medication AT ALL until I am THC-free - no pot-smoking for at least one month since this is how long THC stays in the body. She is adamant that the THC is "interfering" with the other drugs at the receptor sites. I'm presently on Neurontin and Wellbutrin, with alprazolam (Xanax) as needed. I don't take much of the latter at all.
But as I have read, like in Mitchell's post in another cannabis thread, there other other compounds in marijuana. So if we only talk about THC, aren't we missing some other receptor sites?
Has any study found out how many THC receptor sites there are in the body?
The only reason I mentioned marijuana use at all to the therapist was because I was trying to explain to her the way smoking it made me feel, and I was asking her: isn't there a legal way to do this? When I am depressed like I am now, with anhedonia and lethargy, it produces energy for me, makes me interested in things ("oh, there's some laundry to fold! lovely!"), gives me a feeling of well-being. I ask you: aren't there drugs for this? Is it my dopamine levels that need a boost? What prescription drugs would anyone suggest?
I feel she is being punitive in not helping me by prescribing something right now, so I precisely DON'T HAVE TO smoke the weed, because I am already feeling that better to begin with. I feel like I'm in this Catch-22, where I take the pot to give me the desired effect, but I won't be given anything else to help me feel better until I QUIT the pot... Does anyone get this? I don't understand why I have to suffer needlessly. I am using the pot to self-medicate. So why can't I be given something legal so I don't have to? Or is this just pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking?
Questioningly yours,
Wendy
> I was interested in what you wrote about Marijuana increasing dopamine levels 6 fold. My psychiatrist prescribed Seroquel for me at a low dosage to raise my dopamine levels--mostly I felt tired taking it, but sometimes felt as if I were stoned--may have just been tiredness. My question is if there is any antidepressant medication that would closely resemble or match the qualities of pot. I find the day after I have smoked pot I usually am much more relaxed, creative, positive, appreciative of life, open, sociable--I wish this were my normal state--marijuana is too draining for me to use on any kind of regular basis though--similar to caffeine in its effects for me--I can't handle caffeine either. Also, I don't like the lack of clarity with pot--but it certainly relieves any social anxiety I might have, and often makes me feel relaxed and more grounded. Any ideas input would be appreciated. Thanks, Joy
Posted by Cam W. on November 22, 2001, at 4:10:32
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed, posted by wendy b. on November 21, 2001, at 10:33:02
Wendy - I think that what your therapist is trying to get at is that your using marijuana is taking you beyond a therapeutic response to an altering of reality. Yes, smoking pot does make you feel better, but, as James said, it takes you beyond "normal" to the point of escapism. I would think that altering of your medication, as proposed by your therapist, once you are pot-free, would be an effort to try to relieve your depression symptoms. This would mean trying to "fix" your body's stress repsonse mechanism (ie. the HPA axis; the fight-or-flight reponses) so that when you are exposed to stress your body will be better able to cope with that stress, instead of escaping from it (as your are essentially doing with marijuana).
I believe that it is far better (and healthier) to deal with the stress than to escape from it. I would think that this is what your therapist is trying to convey to you.
I am not saying that the occasional escape from reality is not healthy. This can also reduce stress. But to escape from "reality" on a daily basis is not productive. It prevents one from living life to the fullest. Occasionally letting loose in the form of a few beers, or joints, or whatever while socializing friends does relieve stress.
This stress relief can also be done without "artificial joy", although sometimes; and I do stress "sometimes" an altered state of reality can make certain events (eg. a concert, a social gathering, etc.) more enjoyable. The key is not to alter reality on a daily basis. This is counter-productive to enjoying a full life.
The choice of the form of escape must also be made responsibly. The guideline that I use is how does the form escape affect one's health. Usually moderation is the key, but there are exceptions to this guideline.
I believe that one has to draw the line at taking anything that can potentially cause permanent damage to the body. For example, taking PCP would not be a choice I would make, neither is cocaine nor heroin. I have seen both destroy lives. Granted, cocaine and heroin, if pure and done in moderation, does not cause permanent damage to the body, but one has to consider the addictive potential of these drugs.
Each person must consider the addictive potential of the drug they may choose and also how much of an addictive personality that person has. Each drug used for escape has a different potential for addiction. For crack cocaine that addictive potential appears to be high; perhaps it is slightly less for methamphetamine; less still for nicotine; less stil for heroin; less still for alcohol; less still for marijuana; less still for caffiene; and less still for LSD and magic mushrooms. The order of this list is an example or generalization and will be different for each individual, depending upon their personality, genetic make-up and social influences.
So, I believe what your therapist is trying to tell you is that she will try to help you relieve your depressive symptoms, but not through escapism. She will do it by helping you to deal with what caused the depression by either helping you to resolve the problems that caused the depression in the first place (ie. a reactive depression due to an adverse life event) or teach to live within and cope with a chronic (eg. genetic defect or reactive depression that has been cycle accelerated).
I hope that this makes some sense. Again, my limited command of the english language has made it hard for me to explain the concepts that I am trying to convey. Perhaps someone may understand what I am trying to say, and be able to write it in a more understandable way (Mair, Scott, James, Elizabeth, etc - are you willing to give it a shot - I'd also be interested to hear your comments on this). - Cam
Posted by jazzdog on November 22, 2001, at 10:56:36
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed » wendy b., posted by Cam W. on November 22, 2001, at 4:10:32
I think there is an essential distinction between using drugs to achieve a 'cocktail effect' - a feeling of warmth, elation, release of inhibitions - and using drugs to get well. It's the difference between escaping from the world and learning to engage with it in a meaningful way. As people who suffer mood disorders, we are uniquely susceptible to the temptations of the former - alcoholism and addiction rates among people with major mood disorders are over 40%, as opposed to 10% in the general population. As Cam says, occasional social recreational drug use isn't harmful - unless, and it's a big unless, one is an alcoholic-addict, in which case occasional use will inevitably become frequent and disabling use. It seems to me that this is a big issue on this board, one that is prompting a lot of defensiveness and denial.- Jane
Posted by Mitchell on November 23, 2001, at 0:49:10
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed, posted by wendy b. on November 21, 2001, at 10:33:02
Joy,
First, the surgeon general's warning - smoking can be harmful to your health. Don't underestimate the risk of smoking, and if that is what you choose to do, realize that by the time you are 50 or 60, if not sooner, you might have any one of several respiratory disorders. If you are not familiar with the frustrating feeling of not being able to catch your breath, it can be hard to assess how difficult it might be to spend the last years of your life with a respiratory disorder.
If you choose to smoke, smoke wisely. Consider moderation, filtration systems and quality smoking materials.
But as for the psychotropic effects of cannabis, by my assessment, so little is known that most clinical professionals, social workers, teachers, bosses, D.A.R.E. instructors, parents, concerned friends or anybody else who claims to know what this drug is doing to your mind is speaking more out of well-intended prejudice than out of scientific knowledge.
The dangers of pyrolytic byproducts are well-known, but the psychotropic hazards associated with cannabis are not well-defined and have not been scientifically measured against a dispassionate assessment of potential benefits.
There are two other categories of risk associated with cannabis, one of which is probably a subset of whatever psychotropic risks there might be. One risk is addiction or dependence. The other is social - the drug can get you busted, you can lose your job, people can stigmatize you as a pot head and you can generally lose social status *among some people* for using cannabis.
Addictionology is a well-established field of study and a fair description of addiction hazards, as defined by those specializing in addictionology, is offered in another recent post in this thread. For my part, I have some strong opinions about this science of addictionology. The science seems to harbor some covert prejudices and cultural assumptions. Among addictionologists, some attachments are considered healthy, such as attachments to social success, to the accumulation of capital, to athletic performance, or to most forms of modern entertainment, while others are assumed to be pathological.
If I may speak from the heart, I would say I am deeply angered that leaders in our society promote such escapist habits as watching television, traveling hither and thither in ridiculously inefficient, dangerous and environmentally hazardous vehicles, competition for competition's sake, high risk individual sports or just about anything else that generates capital, while they claim some moral high ground when it comes to cannabis use.
There is no reason to assume that cannabis use is an escapist practice. My experience is that it helps some people to better engage the world around them. For some, it can replace the need to partake in many of these empty rituals of capitalist culture, like observing professional team sports or watching idle entertainment programs on television. Of course many people combine cannabis use with these practices, and I am not per se condemning anybody's choice to watch or practice sports, watch TV, tour the world in a gas-guzzling land or sea yacht or to practice any other of what I consider to be stupid human tricks.
From my experience, cannabis use, even regular cannabis use, can be a very engaging activity. For whatever unknown reason, my experience has been that some people who use it are more engaged with people and with nature. The ballyhoo about amotivational syndrome might have as much to do with who chooses to use cannabis than it does with the effects of cannabis. Some people choose to disengage from stupid human tricks and to become more engaged with their own contemplation. This can be labeled amotivational syndrome, whether they use cannabis or not. Chances are, those who choose to disengage in stupid human tricks are more likely to choose a drug that helps them to engage with their own thoughts, other people or nature.
I can't speak with authority to your situation with the therapist, but it seems to me that there is no way this person could have information about how these medications interact with cannabis. I dare say if you asked a clinical worker for studies that support claims that cannabis is interacting with prescribed drugs, they would be left speechless. My suspicion is the person is speaking from social prejudice, having already decided for whatever reason that cannabis use is a wrong choice.
It is my opinion that many clinical psychiatric workers are entirely too convinced of their ability to make people's lives picture perfect. Some, in my opinion, want to consider themselves omniscient healers of persons but they have their heads in the sand when it comes to social realities that are behind so many of the conditions that lead to psychiatric complaints. I believe many are way too quick to blame their clients for whatever it is in the client's life that the clinical worker cannot make conform to the clinical worker's ego-centric expectations.
I don't mean to say that therapy, medications or other psychiatric offerings are useless and don't work, or that a therapist or psychiatrist can never accurately assess that cannabis or some other non-clinical medication is causing problems for their clients. But your therapist is not a god. At some point, every person who does business with a paid healer has to decide how much trust to invest in the healer, and how much they will invest in their own sense of self-direction. It is really a matter of how much risk you want to assume by taking responsibility for your own choices, and whether the potential outcomes you expect from your choices are worth the risk.
Posted by Cam W. on November 23, 2001, at 2:22:14
In reply to Re: cannabis use, posted by Mitchell on November 23, 2001, at 0:49:10
Mitchell
> But as for the psychotropic effects of cannabis, by my assessment, so little is known that most clinical professionals, social workers, teachers, bosses, D.A.R.E. instructors, parents, concerned friends or anybody else who claims to know what this drug is doing to your mind is speaking more out of well-intended prejudice than out of scientific knowledge.
>
• Since there is evidence that cannabis is one of the first crops to be cultivated, with it's use dating back thousands of years, I believe that the long-term effects of the use of the plant have been fairly well established from a cultural standpoint. Much of this information is ignored, though.
>
> If I may speak from the heart, I would say I am deeply angered that leaders in our society promote such escapist habits as watching television, traveling hither and thither in ridiculously inefficient, dangerous and environmentally hazardous vehicles, competition for competition's sake, high risk individual sports or just about anything else that generates capital, while they claim some moral high ground when it comes to cannabis use.
>
• I suppose that this escapism could extend to internet use; and the littering of landfills with obsolete personal computers could be considered environmentally damaging.
>
> From my experience, cannabis use, even regular cannabis use, can be a very engaging activity. For whatever unknown reason, my experience has been that some people who use it are more engaged with people and with nature. The ballyhoo about amotivational syndrome might have as much to do with who chooses to use cannabis than it does with the effects of cannabis. Some people choose to disengage from stupid human tricks and to become more engaged with their own contemplation. This can be labeled amotivational syndrome, whether they use cannabis or not. Chances are, those who choose to disengage in stupid human tricks are more likely to choose a drug that helps them to engage with their own thoughts, other people or nature.
>
• If I had a choice to be operated on by a surgeon who smokes marijuana on a regular basis and or one who doesn't, I think that I would opt for the surgeon who doesn't. This is not to say that there aren't surgeon's who do not operate high, but if they do, one can be reasonably assume that their perception is impaired. If it weren't, what would be the point of smoking a joint.• Also, does marijuana use lead to amotivation, or does amotivation lead to marijuana use? And, are thoughts after marijuana consumption really more profound, or do they just seem to be, at the time?
>Just a couple of observations. - Cam
Posted by Mitchell on November 23, 2001, at 19:25:50
In reply to Re: cannabis use » Mitchell, posted by Cam W. on November 23, 2001, at 2:22:14
> • Since there is evidence that cannabis is one of the first crops to be cultivated, with it's use dating back thousands of years, I believe that the long-term effects of the use of the plant have been fairly well established from a cultural standpoint. Much of this information is ignored, though.
The implication here is unclear to me. Drugs are not approved on the basis of cultural knowledge, and a therapist cannot logically conclude, on the basis of cultural knowledge, that approved medications interact with cannabinoids at any particular receptor site. Cultural knowledge brought us laws that allow alcohol and tobacco use, for better or for worse. Unless one is to conclude that the Muslim world is inherently inferior to the Western world on the basis of cannibas use throughout much of south Asia, cultural knowledge could support the conclusion that cannabis can be a useful component of a society's pharmacopia. My 1960 Time-Life book says cannabis use was at that time widespread in the Muslim world. I beleive more recent laws and publishing practices make it unlikely that we can find an accurate recent published account of cannabis use anywhere in the world. As you say, it has been around for thousands of years. Since I raised the subject, let's please not presume that despotic Muslim regimes are a product of cannabis or opiate use, or that Muslim nations always execute anybody caught "using drugs." Recent news suggests that some despotic regimes have in the past century come to power in some Muslim nations, but these regimes have almost always arisen in the wake of international interference. In other south Asian nations, western or industrial oriented governments are trying to stop cannabis use, but many of the same governments are trying to change the simple agrarian way of life often practiced by cannabis users. For the most part, cannabis seems to have been part of a simple, unassuming and uniquely caring culture throughout the Muslim world, perhaps for centuries.
> • I suppose that this escapism could extend to internet use; and the littering of landfills with obsolete personal computers could be considered environmentally damaging.My point, exactly. Though personal computers don't begin to approach the level of personal injury and environmental harm caused by the automotive industry.
> • If I had a choice to be operated on by a surgeon who smokes marijuana on a regular basis and or one who doesn't, I think that I would opt for the surgeon who doesn't. This is not to say that there aren't surgeon's who do not operate high, but if they do, one can be reasonably assume that their perception is impaired. If it weren't, what would be the point of smoking a joint.
If I had a choice of working on an assembly line where cannabis use was allowed, I might see no problem with it. Most people who have the choice of enjoying or avoiding entertainment in which cannabis users participated in the production continue to enjoy. I would not be particularly concerned about a surgeon who used cannabis. I would be more concerned about surgeons so driven by economic ambition that they do not slow down enough to make sure they removed the forceps or surgical cloths from my gut before they sew me back together. To Err Is Human, the NAS study, documented a pervasive tendency toward error in the medical industry, and attributed none of the errors to cannabis use. The few medical professionals I have known who used cannibas seemed among the more empathetic of their kind and probably are more willing to buck a system that put inappropriate levels of pressure on practitioners for profits' sake. Given a choice between flying with a pilot who had used cannabis and one who had not, I might choose not to fly. For pilots who do use cannabis, not flying for a few hours after use might be a wise choice. Either way, there is no evidence that allowing pilots to use cannabis would be any more dangerous than letting profit-motivated airlines take responsibility for the security of their passengers.
> • Also, does marijuana use lead to amotivation, or does amotivation lead to marijuana use?
Is there a documented correlation between cannabis use and amotivation? The more motivated cannabis users I know almost universally refuse to acknowledge their use, for legal reasons, in any study, survey or personal conversation with anyone other than trusted confidants. That might just be one of those elements of cultural knowledge that has not been documented by research. But otherwise, I can suggest that cannabis might help some people avoid participating in behaviors that their peers would otherwise pressure them toward, such as economic competition at the expense of personal integrity. That is based mostly on my experience and my obervation of cannabis users I have known, though, not on any research.
> And, are thoughts after marijuana consumption really more profound, or do they just seem to be, at the time?
Profundity might not be the goal of some contemplation. I suspect that thoughts are more fluid shortly after cannabis use, perhaps because of the role of cannabinoid receptors in short term memory. A reduced attachment to the most recent thought might allow the mind to more quickly wander in search of other interesting stimulus. In a world where people are trying to manipulate my thoughts, through advertising, mechanical artifacts and cultural demands, a psychotropic that tends to break that spell seems to me to be useful. Unfortunately, it is illegal and I tend to suffer without.
> Just a couple of observations. - CamIt is important to be observant. Thanks - Mitchell
Posted by Mair on November 23, 2001, at 20:14:09
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed, posted by wendy b. on November 21, 2001, at 10:33:02
Wendy - if you don't quit smoking pot before you make a meds change, how will you be able to quantify the effects of the new drug? How will you know whether whatever you are feeling is the drug or the dope or the combination thereof, or an interaction between the new drug and the neurontin and WB you already take? This, I think is one reason my pdocs have always wanted to introduce new drugs one at a time. Maybe this wouldn't be necessary if you viewed the pot as a permanent part of your meds profile - then best to stay on it while you're trying to introduce something new. But it doesn't seem like a great long term solution to me and longer term solutions are probably what your therapist is looking for. IMHO
Mair
Posted by Cam W. on November 23, 2001, at 20:50:25
In reply to Re: cannabis use, posted by Mitchell on November 23, 2001, at 19:25:50
Posted by PattyG on November 24, 2001, at 9:57:37
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed, posted by SteveL on September 29, 2000, at 19:18:34
///Hello, Steve,
I posted this message on a "seizure thread" and then read this post from you........thought you'd be interested in the content, but I'd also like to know if your reference to your seizures meant that you've found pot to have medicinal purposes in this instance?
The following response came after a nurse/friend posted a question in the medical community asking if the use of pot could be interfering with Dilantin levels being raised to a therapeutic level.
Dr. Paul Consroe
Professor of Pharmacology and Toxicology
Arizona Health Sciences Center
University of Arizona
Tucson AZ 85721We studied this 'potential' drug interaction more than 25 years ago. As
I recall, in the majority of cases there was no change in dilantin
levels. This was unexpected since the pharmacology of marijuana on liver
enzymes would predict that there might be an INCREASE in dilantin
levels. On the clinical level, there was a potentiation of dilanton's
antiepileptic effect. In other words, marijuana was an anticonvulsant
itself, and when given with dilantin, there was a greater protective
effect against the recurrent (grand mal, and complex partial =
psychomotor) seizures.Thus, in your case below, maybe you should check for 'patient
compliance' of his his/her dilantin meds.
I hope that this helps.
Sincerely,
pc////Your thoughts?
PattyG
Posted by paxvox on November 30, 2001, at 13:21:35
In reply to Re: cannabis use, posted by Mitchell on November 23, 2001, at 19:25:50
I don't know.....this is getting kinda philisophical here. I think what one chooses to do is, well, their choice, as long as it DOESN'T ADVERSELY AFFECT SOMEONE ELSE. Can we clearly say this about THC? No more than you can about alcohol or other "recreational" meds.
At issue here, does THC benefit some people suffering from medical problems? Sure it does. Should it be given universal approval as a panacea? NO WAY! I am not speaking out of ignorance or naivte, I had many years of hands on experience,as it were. I think we, as a forum, need to be VERY CAREFUL in supporting the use of currently illegal substances. Many people reading this board are young, and are looking for experienced answers. I can attest for a fact that teenagers should not smoke pot, because it DOES affect learning and memory. This is not just my interpretation. Adults, hey, it's your choice, but look where you leap, the laws have changed dramatically since we were young in the 70's.
PAX
On the soap box
Posted by pinky on June 26, 2004, at 18:23:59
In reply to Re: cannabis use, posted by paxvox on November 30, 2001, at 13:21:35
im sure cannabis is beneficial to people suffering from certain physical probs, etc.
otherwise, i think it sucks. It makes you paranoid. once you reach a certain age, 21+, your mind is too complicated to be tampered with in that manner. YOu're simply too old for that kind of introspection.
Posted by S. Pavlik on June 28, 2004, at 9:01:05
In reply to Re: cannabis use, posted by pinky on June 26, 2004, at 18:23:59
I've had my share of bad highs in my lifetime. I wasnt comfortable around the people I was around while under the effects of cannabis. While I was alone in my room, I actually went from happy to sad, to normal atleast 4 times. Other times Cannabis has induced panic attacks. Oh yeah, it does give me paranoia.
> im sure cannabis is beneficial to people suffering from certain physical probs, etc.
>
> otherwise, i think it sucks. It makes you paranoid. once you reach a certain age, 21+, your mind is too complicated to be tampered with in that manner. YOu're simply too old for that kind of introspection.
Posted by starlight on July 2, 2004, at 12:13:47
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed, posted by Chimera0 on March 28, 2001, at 18:03:42
Don't tell your MD. I told my Pdoc who absolutely assured me that it wouldn't leave his office. I work in a hospital and ordered my medical records to read about a recent surgery that I had and I found everything that I had discussed with him about my use written in my records, coded and sent to my insurance company. I trusted him and he violated my privacy big time.
I find that when I'm really depressed, I naturally don't use. My body just doesn't want it and I find it interesting that it happens that way. I also find that it reflects how I'm feeling, so if I'm happy, it's great, but if I'm bumming on something it intensifies it. It's great for going on a walk and getting spiritual, playing music, watching music or a good movie. I also have found it to elevate my mood as well. I'm a productive, energetic and responsible person who holds a good job and has hobbies. I teach yoga as well.
starlight
Posted by starlight on July 2, 2004, at 12:22:35
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed ? wendy b., posted by Cam W. on November 22, 2001, at 4:10:32
I personally feel that alchohol and caffeine are much worse than marijuana. Some people come home and have a drink or a few, and wake up with a terrible hangover are dehydrated and suffer other residual effects from alcohol. Most people use alcohol to escape, and it's legal. Have you ever gone through caffeine withdrawl? Caffeine withdrawl is a horrible experience than can leave you feeling awful for about 10 days. Pot has no residual effects the next day at all. None.
I think it's wrong for your therapist to say that and think you should change. If you're self medicating then finding the right combo of meds might lessen your desire for pot. She's making a judgement and it's probably on an old school programming that says "it's bad..." Just my suggestions.
starlight
Posted by PattyG on July 2, 2004, at 13:06:03
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed, posted by starlight on July 2, 2004, at 12:13:47
> Don't tell your MD. I told my Pdoc who absolutely assured me that it wouldn't leave his office. I work in a hospital and ordered my medical records to read about a recent surgery that I had and I found everything that I had discussed with him about my use written in my records, coded and sent to my insurance company. I trusted him and he violated my privacy big time.
//Wow! So did your insurance company drop you or increase premiums? Yes, I'd say that was a HUGE violation of your confidentiality rights - did you talk with your pdoc about it?
>
> I find that when I'm really depressed, I naturally don't use. My body just doesn't want it and I find it interesting that it happens that way. I also find that it reflects how I'm feeling, so if I'm happy, it's great, but if I'm bumming on something it intensifies it. It's great for going on a walk and getting spiritual, playing music, watching music or a good movie. I also have found it to elevate my mood as well. I'm a productive, energetic and responsible person who holds a good job and has hobbies. I teach yoga as well.
> starlight
Posted by starlight on July 2, 2004, at 14:22:49
In reply to Re: the Evil Killer Weed, posted by PattyG on July 2, 2004, at 13:06:03
I'm talking to an attorney about it and my insurance can't drop me for that, but it's been horrible, especially in conjunction with all the other things he said about me.
starlight
This is the end of the thread.
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