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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 2ndXround on July 1, 2004, at 22:03:47
Hi
I figure I can't be the only one suffering.
I have tried about 7-8 antidep over the last 30 years, and never had any permanent problems after stopping them....until I took Prozac.
On Prozac I suffered extremely bad movement and sleep problems. I had muscle jerks that would flip me out of bed onto the floor when I was asleep, I broke my nose when my knee jerked up and my head jerked down....:(....I couldn't write my name from shaking and twitching, I hallucinated, heard and saw things and had night paralysis and night terrors. I also stopped sweating, literally, and had heat stroke 6 times. The doctor said these were side effects and would go away...he also did not believe me about how bad they were.
I quit taking the Prozac after almost one year and most of the 'side efects' went away, or at least got better. However, I was left with RLS that has gotten progressively worse in the last 8 years. It is 24/7. I also still have ticks, jerks and shaking...but not all the time and not that bad...although my eyes bother me from winking so much and my leg muscles cramp and get sore from the RLS.
Has this happened to anyone? I would love to know how to get rid of these movement problems. I have stopped going to doctors because they just look at me and say they have no idea how this problem could have happened.
Amy advice?
Posted by Sad Panda on July 2, 2004, at 9:16:50
In reply to Anyone here with movement disorders, posted by 2ndXround on July 1, 2004, at 22:03:47
> Hi
> I figure I can't be the only one suffering.
> I have tried about 7-8 antidep over the last 30 years, and never had any permanent problems after stopping them....until I took Prozac.
> On Prozac I suffered extremely bad movement and sleep problems. I had muscle jerks that would flip me out of bed onto the floor when I was asleep, I broke my nose when my knee jerked up and my head jerked down....:(....I couldn't write my name from shaking and twitching, I hallucinated, heard and saw things and had night paralysis and night terrors. I also stopped sweating, literally, and had heat stroke 6 times. The doctor said these were side effects and would go away...he also did not believe me about how bad they were.
> I quit taking the Prozac after almost one year and most of the 'side efects' went away, or at least got better. However, I was left with RLS that has gotten progressively worse in the last 8 years. It is 24/7. I also still have ticks, jerks and shaking...but not all the time and not that bad...although my eyes bother me from winking so much and my leg muscles cramp and get sore from the RLS.
> Has this happened to anyone? I would love to know how to get rid of these movement problems. I have stopped going to doctors because they just look at me and say they have no idea how this problem could have happened.
> Amy advice
>
>Hiya :)
This is going to sound rude, but I would really like to know why you persevered with Prozac for nearly a year? Prozac gave me some grief too, but I didn't stay on it for nearly as long as you did. :)
An AD suggestion, have you tried Amitriptyline? It has potent antimuscarinic activity that may help your movement disorder & is the all time Number One most effective AD.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by Sad Panda on July 2, 2004, at 9:20:32
In reply to Anyone here with movement disorders, posted by 2ndXround on July 1, 2004, at 22:03:47
Another suggestion would be the MAOI L-deprenyl (Selegiline) which is used effectively in treating Parkinson's.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by King Vultan on July 2, 2004, at 9:24:48
In reply to Anyone here with movement disorders, posted by 2ndXround on July 1, 2004, at 22:03:47
It seems clear that your dopamine system has become disordered in some way, as this is the system most identified with movement disorders. Psychosis and antipsychotic drugs are areas I am not particularly familiar with (and anyone with better info, please feel free to correct me), but your side effects while on the Prozac also appear to be dopamine related--hallucinations are a psychotic effect and the reduction in sweating and heat stroke is a side effect of anti-psychotic drugs that block dopamine receptors. So is the restless leg syndrome, which is the most common EPSE (extrapyramidal side effect). Of course, these aren't side effects at all that one might expect from taking Prozac, which primarily works on serotonin, but it seems to me that your doctors should open up their minds and try to help you. Just because nobody's ever heard of a particular scenario doesn't mean that it's not possible.
I am no doctor, but for now, I think something that could be done is to at least treat you symptomatically. You have RLS (restless leg syndrome); one method of treating this is to add an anticholinergic. You can do a simple experiment yourself by trying Benadryl (diphenhydramine), which is an OTC antihistamine that is anticholinergic enough to have some use for the early stages of Parkinson's Disease and for treating EPSEs. I have one reference that suggests 25-50 mg three or four times a day for this particular application. The problem with this stuff is its propensity to make people drowsy, and I even use it as a sleep aid.
Of course, there are other treatments, but as I said, I'm not a doctor. However, I would think an open minded and competent neurologist should be able to help you. In dealing with these doctors, I would focus more on your symptoms than ascertaining what the exact cause is. If it were me, I would tell the doctor that you've been left with this horrible RLS and other movement disorders, that it seems like too much of a coincidence that you were also on Prozac at the time these symptoms developed, but determining the cause is less important than obtaining relief, because you are truly suffering. I do wish you well with the doctors and hope you are able to find some kind of effective treatment for your unfortunate movement disorder.
Todd
Posted by Sad Panda on July 2, 2004, at 10:04:34
In reply to Re: Anyone here with movement disorders » 2ndXround, posted by King Vultan on July 2, 2004, at 9:24:48
> It seems clear that your dopamine system has become disordered in some way, as this is the system most identified with movement disorders. Psychosis and antipsychotic drugs are areas I am not particularly familiar with (and anyone with better info, please feel free to correct me), but your side effects while on the Prozac also appear to be dopamine related--hallucinations are a psychotic effect and the reduction in sweating and heat stroke is a side effect of anti-psychotic drugs that block dopamine receptors. So is the restless leg syndrome, which is the most common EPSE (extrapyramidal side effect). Of course, these aren't side effects at all that one might expect from taking Prozac, which primarily works on serotonin, but it seems to me that your doctors should open up their minds and try to help you. Just because nobody's ever heard of a particular scenario doesn't mean that it's not possible.
>
> I am no doctor, but for now, I think something that could be done is to at least treat you symptomatically. You have RLS (restless leg syndrome); one method of treating this is to add an anticholinergic. You can do a simple experiment yourself by trying Benadryl (diphenhydramine), which is an OTC antihistamine that is anticholinergic enough to have some use for the early stages of Parkinson's Disease and for treating EPSEs. I have one reference that suggests 25-50 mg three or four times a day for this particular application. The problem with this stuff is its propensity to make people drowsy, and I even use it as a sleep aid.
>
> Of course, there are other treatments, but as I said, I'm not a doctor. However, I would think an open minded and competent neurologist should be able to help you. In dealing with these doctors, I would focus more on your symptoms than ascertaining what the exact cause is. If it were me, I would tell the doctor that you've been left with this horrible RLS and other movement disorders, that it seems like too much of a coincidence that you were also on Prozac at the time these symptoms developed, but determining the cause is less important than obtaining relief, because you are truly suffering. I do wish you well with the doctors and hope you are able to find some kind of effective treatment for your unfortunate movement disorder.
>
> Todd
>
>That's a much better post than mine Todd, you are 100% right on getting relief for the symptoms & not actually worrying about weather or not Prozac caused it.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by Sad Panda on July 2, 2004, at 11:03:12
In reply to Anyone here with movement disorders, posted by 2ndXround on July 1, 2004, at 22:03:47
http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/split/Antideps-in-parkinsons.html
Posted by 2ndXround on July 2, 2004, at 23:24:25
In reply to Re: Anyone here with movement disorders » King Vultan, posted by Sad Panda on July 2, 2004, at 10:04:34
King and Panda
THANKYOU!
You both made such sense.
You are right...who cares how I got it, or where I got it...the fact is, I HAVE IT!
The doctors have seen have been focusing so much on the Prozac, they tend to get side tracked... they have forgotten there is still a person suffering who needs help.
In fact.....after reading your advice to me, I realized doctors have been known to make mistakes when they make assumptions about a patient's symptoms because of a previous diagnoses. By that I mean, if a person has suffered from anxiety and panic attacks all of their lives....a doctor might very likely assume that the chest pain and SOB the person is suffering from is caused by stress, when in auctuality they are having a heart attack.
They should never assume anything when a person has multiple symptoms. Having said that..
Perhaps I have a couple of things going on...and the relationship to the Prozac was a coincidence. Maybe Parkinsons (hopefully not)is something to be considered...or a genetic problem or an injury...
What do you think?
Posted by Sad Panda on July 4, 2004, at 10:16:59
In reply to Re: Anyone here with movement disorders » Sad Panda, posted by 2ndXround on July 2, 2004, at 23:24:25
> King and Panda
> THANKYOU!
> You both made such sense.
> You are right...who cares how I got it, or where I got it...the fact is, I HAVE IT!
> The doctors have seen have been focusing so much on the Prozac, they tend to get side tracked... they have forgotten there is still a person suffering who needs help.
> In fact.....after reading your advice to me, I realized doctors have been known to make mistakes when they make assumptions about a patient's symptoms because of a previous diagnoses. By that I mean, if a person has suffered from anxiety and panic attacks all of their lives....a doctor might very likely assume that the chest pain and SOB the person is suffering from is caused by stress, when in auctuality they are having a heart attack.
> They should never assume anything when a person has multiple symptoms. Having said that..
> Perhaps I have a couple of things going on...and the relationship to the Prozac was a coincidence. Maybe Parkinsons (hopefully not)is something to be considered...or a genetic problem or an injury...
> What do you think?
>It might have more to do with your history of meth abuse. Methamphetamine tends to give dopamine receptors are good hiding as well as depleting dopamine & the adulterants could easily be worse than meth itself.
From here: http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofax/methamphetamine.html
"Over time, methamphetamine appears to cause reduced levels of dopamine, which can result in symptoms like those of Parkinson's disease, a severe movement disorder."Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by 2ndXround on July 5, 2004, at 1:35:14
In reply to Re: Anyone here with movement disorders » 2ndXround, posted by Sad Panda on July 4, 2004, at 10:16:59
Hi
I agree that meth abuse can cause movement disorders.....but I did not take any for about 25 years. In fact, I didn't smoke, drink or take any drugs at all. I was put on Prozac after I had been totally clean for at least 12-13 years....and up till then I had no movement problems. Then I took Prozac, the problems suddenly started up and have continued ever since.
I would think that any movement problems would have shown up within the 12-13 years I was clean.....
however....do you think the Prozac might have been a trigger? Perhaps my system had kept the problem under control until Prozac tipped the scale......what do you think?
It would be interesting to find out if a drug that was abused in a person's past could suddenly cause problems so many years later.
How sad....and a wake-up call for people who are abusing drugs now...(if true). It is hard enough getting old when you are in good health.
Thanks for your input. Let me know if you have anymore advice....I need it.
Take care
Posted by francesco on July 5, 2004, at 8:52:12
In reply to Re: Anyone here with movement disorders » Sad Panda, posted by 2ndXround on July 5, 2004, at 1:35:14
I don't know if this can help but I have just finished to read 'The antidepressant fact book' by Breggin and he says that he has seen in his clinical practice some movement disorder caused by Prozac. Best Wishes
Posted by Sad Panda on July 5, 2004, at 9:11:12
In reply to Re: Anyone here with movement disorders » Sad Panda, posted by 2ndXround on July 5, 2004, at 1:35:14
> Hi
> I agree that meth abuse can cause movement disorders.....but I did not take any for about 25 years. In fact, I didn't smoke, drink or take any drugs at all. I was put on Prozac after I had been totally clean for at least 12-13 years....and up till then I had no movement problems. Then I took Prozac, the problems suddenly started up and have continued ever since.
> I would think that any movement problems would have shown up within the 12-13 years I was clean.....
> however....do you think the Prozac might have been a trigger? Perhaps my system had kept the problem under control until Prozac tipped the scale......what do you think?
> It would be interesting to find out if a drug that was abused in a person's past could suddenly cause problems so many years later.
> How sad....and a wake-up call for people who are abusing drugs now...(if true). It is hard enough getting old when you are in good health.
> Thanks for your input. Let me know if you have anymore advice....I need it.
> Take care
>
>My understanding is that as you get older, receptor quantities diminish slowly, you only need 20% to move normally, but once you cross the line, movement disorders appear rapidly. I doubt that Prozac caused your problem, but it could very well have been the straw the broke the camel's back.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by 2ndXround on July 6, 2004, at 6:22:12
In reply to Re: Anyone here with movement disorders » 2ndXround, posted by Sad Panda on July 5, 2004, at 9:11:12
> > Hi
> > I agree that meth abuse can cause movement disorders.....but I did not take any for about 25 years. In fact, I didn't smoke, drink or take any drugs at all. I was put on Prozac after I had been totally clean for at least 12-13 years....and up till then I had no movement problems. Then I took Prozac, the problems suddenly started up and have continued ever since.
> > I would think that any movement problems would have shown up within the 12-13 years I was clean.....
> > however....do you think the Prozac might have been a trigger? Perhaps my system had kept the problem under control until Prozac tipped the scale......what do you think?
> > It would be interesting to find out if a drug that was abused in a person's past could suddenly cause problems so many years later.
> > How sad....and a wake-up call for people who are abusing drugs now...(if true). It is hard enough getting old when you are in good health.
> > Thanks for your input. Let me know if you have anymore advice....I need it.
> > Take care
> >
> >
>
> My understanding is that as you get older, receptor quantities diminish slowly, you only need 20% to move normally, but once you cross the line, movement disorders appear rapidly. I doubt that Prozac caused your problem, but it could very well have been the straw the broke the camel's back.
>
> Cheers,
> Panda.Hi
Oh, great...20% ahhh?
Animal lovers must hate me...I probably broke the camel's back...(:....
So is this irreversible?
I know nerve cells, once dead, do not regenerate...but if the receptor cells are damaged, not dead, and the receptor quantities, although diminished, are normal for a person my age...do you think there might be something that can help?
I am thinking of the effects of smoking as a comparison.
The chemicals in cig smoke put the cilia to sleep so to speak. They are not dead, but are unable to function. The 'wake up' after a person has stopped smoking...and continue from where they left off....cleaning up things in the lungs so you can breath again.
What do you think???
>
>
>
Posted by Sad Panda on July 7, 2004, at 2:05:53
In reply to Re: Anyone here with movement disorders, posted by 2ndXround on July 6, 2004, at 6:22:12
> > > Hi
> > > I agree that meth abuse can cause movement disorders.....but I did not take any for about 25 years. In fact, I didn't smoke, drink or take any drugs at all. I was put on Prozac after I had been totally clean for at least 12-13 years....and up till then I had no movement problems. Then I took Prozac, the problems suddenly started up and have continued ever since.
> > > I would think that any movement problems would have shown up within the 12-13 years I was clean.....
> > > however....do you think the Prozac might have been a trigger? Perhaps my system had kept the problem under control until Prozac tipped the scale......what do you think?
> > > It would be interesting to find out if a drug that was abused in a person's past could suddenly cause problems so many years later.
> > > How sad....and a wake-up call for people who are abusing drugs now...(if true). It is hard enough getting old when you are in good health.
> > > Thanks for your input. Let me know if you have anymore advice....I need it.
> > > Take care
> > >
> > >
> >
> > My understanding is that as you get older, receptor quantities diminish slowly, you only need 20% to move normally, but once you cross the line, movement disorders appear rapidly. I doubt that Prozac caused your problem, but it could very well have been the straw the broke the camel's back.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Panda.
>
> Hi
> Oh, great...20% ahhh?
> Animal lovers must hate me...I probably broke the camel's back...(:....
> So is this irreversible?
> I know nerve cells, once dead, do not regenerate...but if the receptor cells are damaged, not dead, and the receptor quantities, although diminished, are normal for a person my age...do you think there might be something that can help?
> I am thinking of the effects of smoking as a comparison.
> The chemicals in cig smoke put the cilia to sleep so to speak. They are not dead, but are unable to function. The 'wake up' after a person has stopped smoking...and continue from where they left off....cleaning up things in the lungs so you can breath again.
> What do you think???
> >
> >
> >
>
>There is plenty of Parkinson drugs to try. If you are depressed/anxious I would start with Amitriptyline for your problems.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by LastDyingWish on July 8, 2004, at 21:22:51
In reply to Re: Anyone here with movement disorders » 2ndXround, posted by Sad Panda on July 4, 2004, at 10:16:59
Hey Panda, Iam just curious why you reccomend Elavil. Is this drug used in Parkinsons ? and i also thought TCAs are usually the last choice in treatment for depression.
I know this is off topic. But Iam going to ask you because you seem pretty knowledgeable. Why isnt synthetic testerone, or growth hormone used in degenerative nuero problems? It seems that these would help heal and restore any damage caused by say ,meth, or depression.
Posted by 2ndXround on July 9, 2004, at 7:37:20
In reply to Panda, posted by LastDyingWish on July 8, 2004, at 21:22:51
Hi Panda
I took Elavil for a couple of years almost 30 years ago. I was seriously depressed after detoxing from using speed. Very few meds were out then for depression.
During my RN training, interns at SF, Berkeley and Oakland hospitals introduced me to 'speed'. It was very common and easy to get. Remember, it was the 70's and I was in the center of the hippy/drug/make love not war phase.
Anyway, after a couple of years I had to stop the Elavil due to blurry vision, tremor, severe agitation. I then tried several other meds but never had a problem until I tried Prozac. The movement and sleep problems were unbelievable! (I already told you about them) The doctor said Prozac did not cause it, but new meds were coming out very fast and testing for all the different side effects was impossible. It was the first SSRI I had tried.
I have heard since then that Prozac and SSRI's in general have been known in rare cases to cause movement problems.....
But I wonder now if it was caused by a combination of things...starting with the damage done by my amphetamine abuse. This damage might have caused my brain to react differenty to SSRI's (Prozac specifically), resulting in the movement/sleeping problems.
I don't know....I have a need to understand why this is happening. If I knew I think I would be able to tolerate it better....as well as figure out what might help.
I am afraid of taking another med, even to treat the symptoms that keep me miserable and awake all night (it's 5:30AM and I am still up). What if a new med causes more problems? There just is not enough research yet.
I guess I am just tired....sorry
Posted by Sad Panda on July 9, 2004, at 10:10:49
In reply to Panda, posted by LastDyingWish on July 8, 2004, at 21:22:51
> Hey Panda, Iam just curious why you reccomend Elavil. Is this drug used in Parkinsons ? and i also thought TCAs are usually the last choice in treatment for depression.
>
>Elavil has potent antimuscarinic activity which makes it ideal for Parkinsons. TCA's are last choice purely because they are old & people can't make money by selling them.
> I know this is off topic. But Iam going to ask you because you seem pretty knowledgeable.
That's an illusion. :) I know a bit about Antidepressants, but not a great deal else.
> Why isnt synthetic testerone, or growth hormone used in degenerative nuero problems? It seems that these would help heal and restore any damage caused by say ,meth, or depression.
>
>I don't think all nerve cell damage can be healed, I think once they are gone it's too late.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by Sad Panda on July 9, 2004, at 10:17:54
In reply to Re: Panda, posted by 2ndXround on July 9, 2004, at 7:37:20
> Hi Panda
> I took Elavil for a couple of years almost 30 years ago. I was seriously depressed after detoxing from using speed. Very few meds were out then for depression.
> During my RN training, interns at SF, Berkeley and Oakland hospitals introduced me to 'speed'. It was very common and easy to get. Remember, it was the 70's and I was in the center of the hippy/drug/make love not war phase.
> Anyway, after a couple of years I had to stop the Elavil due to blurry vision, tremor, severe agitation. I then tried several other meds but never had a problem until I tried Prozac. The movement and sleep problems were unbelievable! (I already told you about them) The doctor said Prozac did not cause it, but new meds were coming out very fast and testing for all the different side effects was impossible. It was the first SSRI I had tried.
> I have heard since then that Prozac and SSRI's in general have been known in rare cases to cause movement problems.....
> But I wonder now if it was caused by a combination of things...starting with the damage done by my amphetamine abuse. This damage might have caused my brain to react differenty to SSRI's (Prozac specifically), resulting in the movement/sleeping problems.
> I don't know....I have a need to understand why this is happening. If I knew I think I would be able to tolerate it better....as well as figure out what might help.
> I am afraid of taking another med, even to treat the symptoms that keep me miserable and awake all night (it's 5:30AM and I am still up). What if a new med causes more problems? There just is not enough research yet.
> I guess I am just tired....sorry
>If Elavil is no good, then the MAOI Selegiline would be my next trial.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by ants on October 5, 2004, at 16:21:49
In reply to Anyone here with movement disorders, posted by 2ndXround on July 1, 2004, at 22:03:47
> Hi
> I figure I can't be the only one suffering.
> I have tried about 7-8 antidep over the last 30 years, and never had any permanent problems after stopping them....until I took Prozac.
> On Prozac I suffered extremely bad movement and sleep problems. I had muscle jerks that would flip me out of bed onto the floor when I was asleep, I broke my nose when my knee jerked up and my head jerked down....:(....I couldn't write my name from shaking and twitching, I hallucinated, heard and saw things and had night paralysis and night terrors. I also stopped sweating, literally, and had heat stroke 6 times. The doctor said these were side effects and would go away...he also did not believe me about how bad they were.
> I quit taking the Prozac after almost one year and most of the 'side efects' went away, or at least got better. However, I was left with RLS that has gotten progressively worse in the last 8 years. It is 24/7. I also still have ticks, jerks and shaking...but not all the time and not that bad...although my eyes bother me from winking so much and my leg muscles cramp and get sore from the RLS.
> Has this happened to anyone? I would love to know how to get rid of these movement problems. I have stopped going to doctors because they just look at me and say they have no idea how this problem could have happened.
> Amy advice?
This is a reply to a old post...hope it helps someone.I have Tourette's Syndrome, which is a neurogical movement disorder. I also have depression, which is related to the Tourette's. I have various tics, mostly shaking or waving my hand, blinking, and nodding. There are a few drugs that are prescribed to help alleviate the symptoms although none of them get rid of them completely. Maybe a drug such as one of these would help with the problem described above.
1.Clonidine-this is actually a blood pressure med but it is mildly effective in reducing motor tics in TS patients. It helps with mine. I still have them but they are mostly an "annoyance" rather than a big life altering issue.
2. pimozide-a neuroleptic also prescribed for Parkensons, I believe.
3. haloperidal-also a neuroleptic.
The neuroleptics have more side effects than the clonidine but are way more effective. I choose to take the "easier" med and deal with more movement.
If your psychiatrist and GP can't help you, try a neurologist or a neuro-psychologist who specializes in movement disorders.
Good Luck.
This is the end of the thread.
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