![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 5:46:37
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.. » Chairman_MAO, posted by Sad Panda on June 3, 2004, at 0:32:36
I've met plenty of people for whom around 10-30mg of Dexedrine is calming. I doubt all of those people had ADD. I remember seeing footage on the history channel of some teenagers relaxing in a convertible on Benzedrine. Properly dosed, stimulants make many people calm. The "paradoxical calming" is not the absolute diagnostic tool it's made out to be.
Stimulants also can help make boring, repetative activities--or classes--more interesting.
Posted by zeugma on June 3, 2004, at 13:41:11
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.., posted by seeknsolace on June 2, 2004, at 19:59:13
> > > Please try something else.
> > >
> > > Stimulants are not what is needed< (Ritalin)
> > > Try no refined sugar products, no pop, cakes,
> > > candy etc....
> > >
> > > Adderal, Strattera, and Ritalin are bandaids that do not work. You childs brain and nervous system are still developing....it has been my experience that my wife and I had similiar diagnosis for our daughter....and we made the proper dietary changes and she became a different
> > > girl.
> > >
> > > We have great succces with smooth Herbal Teas
> > > natural fruits and vegetables and of course...plenty of exercise.
> > >
> > > Anything but Ritalin.
> > > PLease read article above concerning Paxil & Children..
> > >
> > > God bless
> > >
> > > Buckeye Fan
> > >
> > i respectfully disagree with the above post. I was diagnosed with ADD in an era that was much less 'med-happy' than today's. my parents were not inclined to take the then-outre step of using a stimulant to treat my condition. Instead I became the prey of a varying band of quacks, psychoanalysts, tried 'natural' cures like tryptophan, dietary changes, exercise.... they simply did not work and my academic carrer and self-esteem were dealt severe blows. ADD is a serious condition, and meds like Ritalin and Strattera do work. My life has been completely changed since I sought out a specialist in ADD who has been helping me on the pharmaceutical end of things, which I consider a precondition necessary IF your child does have a case of ADD serious enough to warrant intervention. I am in my mid 30's and for the first time have been able to hold down a full time job. ADD is not a condition to be treated lightly; it can ruin lives and lead to years wasted in misery.
> >
> >
> zeugma.. what does it feel like to be add? I want to try to understand my child a little more, all he shows me and expresses to me is that he is angry and hates me and hates the world, hates his life, but that doesnt tell me what the depth of his emotions are. How does it feel to be on ritalin? Do you feel drugged, lack emotion, feel like a different person.. for the worse or better?
>It's hard for me to answer the question at the beginning of this paragraph because I doubt I'm 'typical' ADD. I have lots of comorbidities, Non Verbal Learning Disorder, depression, narcolepsy (beginning at age 23, but my sleep was terrible long before that), and on and on. On a stimulant I felt all right, but was taken off because I lost weight quickly. On Strattera I do not feel remotely 'normal,' but it is better than nothing.
When I was 12 I expressed similar feelings to my parents which leads me to suspect that it is true ADD combined with anxiety/depression, and it needs to be taken seriously. The meds are not 'normalizers', but they do improve things in a few crucial areas. They are no cures, but they can help, and i strongly believe they should be used if the condition is serious enough to warrant their use.
> My son is too resistant to attempt any natural approach or any exercise. He is able to exhibit control most of the time, but that could have come from me constantly yelling and being angry over his behavior all these years. As it is now, when he has an explosive episode, when I get to yelling and screaming, then he calms but that only lasts a matter of minutes.
> When I was severely depressed/ exhibited ADD symptoms I could not exercise because my mind was too chaotic to plan anything. I have begun to exercise (and it is an excellent thing to do, of course) because my attention and depression have improved sufficiently for the rudiments of an exercise program to be followed. Your son might have better self-control on a stimulant or Strattera and these other strategies that Buckeye Fan advocates might be able to be implemented. That's how I would look at it.
Posted by zeugma on June 3, 2004, at 14:15:09
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.. » zeugma, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 2, 2004, at 19:57:26
> I never said that I agreed with the post, heh. It's just food for thought. I have ADD too, and being unmedicated is misery for me as well. But that does not mean that people do not use it as an excuse to medicate children to make them docile, even when they can concentrate just fine. You seem to acknowledge the point which I was trying to drive home by posting that column, which is that medication is serious business for children and one should make sure that it is being used in the interest of the CHILD, not the parents or school system.
I agree completely that meds are being overprescribed, and I think that there are so many interests at work (pharm companies, parents, schools) that it is hard to make sure it is truly in the child's interest. Psychiatrists practice in a field that is closer to advertising than medicine.... in my opinion the quality of antidepressants has drastically declined from the days when they were only prescribed to hospital inpatients (TCA's and MAOI's). Strattera is too new to pass judgment on it, but I can say, comparing it to the TCA nortriptyline, that the TCA is the drug I would prefer to be on for the rest of my life. I need to figure out some way to stay on a stimulant; I am trying exercise to build up some mass so i don't have to take Strattera, which is partially redundant with a TCA anyway, to manage my ADD. I can say categorically that, for me, the TCA, which was essentially discovered by accident, is far superior to the 'rationally developed', 'clean', 'targeted' Strattera (the whole Prozac mythology, which I despise.)I think AD's should only be prescribed to those who need them. The pharm companies have a stake in making as many people need them as possible.
>
> There is also the possibility that there is nothing wrong with people like us; we just have hardware that isn't well-suited for most jobs and life-task scenarios in this society, and certain drugs help us out. This is not the forum to get into the finer points of concept of mental illness, but it suffices to say that Thomas Szasz is a genius, whether or not you agree with him. I personally think he is overzealous, but he could argue any of us into the ground ... Do you not think that his reference to masturbatory insanity was relevant at all?Yes. His analogy is flawed in this respect, however. Masturbation was a violation of a moral code, and the hypothesis that implicated it in the etiology of insanity was in retrospect a miserably transparent and self-serving (pun intended) falsehood. ADD, on the other hand, is a complex of behaviors, and at least involves the right organ for the cause of a mental illness.
One way he scores points is by profiting on our ignorance of what ADD, and for that matter depression, is. But just as I know when I'm depressed, I can feel the inattention oppress me, yet I can observe others whose behavior does not seem affected by this oppression. So I take medication for the condition, in the attempt to emulate those I see whose functioning appears efficient and unimpaired. Can Szasz explain the fatigue, the low threshold for stimulation, the terrible drain it is for me to plan an hour in advance? He might deny that these are symptoms of any underlying disorder. But as he says, names mean nothing. I am distressed by my symptoms. They cause functional impairment in society. I have to live in society, because I don't have ready access to an alternate reality at the moment (maybe before the drugs I did). So I search for remedies. What could Szasz say to that?
Posted by linkadge on June 3, 2004, at 14:28:10
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.. » Chairman_MAO, posted by zeugma on June 3, 2004, at 14:15:09
Doing a simple MRI can determine which children have and which ones do not have genuine ADD.
With a child with ADD/ADHD there is extremely low activity in the left prefrontal cortex. This hypoactivity is seen throuought a variety of tasks. This is not BS created by the drug companies to make money, nor is it an excuse to make kids docile. When the medication works in a child it turns on these hypoactive areas, and its not the drug which calms them down but rather the activation of their own prefrontal cortex.
Remeber when Dr. Kramer described an ocasional case of AD,s makeing people better than well?? After this book was released, saying you were on prozac had absolutely no merrit. People thought you were just trying to get a legal buzz.
You have to realize that just like true depression exists, true ADD exists and we must not condem the drug but rather the misuse of it.
If your child responds to dietery aproaches, great. But some don't respond to it.
It's just like the dweens who point out the dangers of ECT. Any baffoon can raise a flag. But I would like to see one person with a genuine and functional solutuion for those who do not respond the the fairy approaches.
These kids cannot concentrate because the part of the brain that concentrates is not working. And sitting around and doing nothing for them is only going to amplify the situation down the road.
Linkadge
Posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 14:47:35
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.. » Chairman_MAO, posted by zeugma on June 3, 2004, at 14:15:09
The Szasz point is not that your suffering does not exist. In fact, he probably would concede that it's likely many so-called "mental illnesses" have a biological basis. He would also defend your right to have drugs to ease your suffering, and that you have the right to have said drugs without a "prescription"--really a permission slip--signed by a doctor. His point is that there are no external validating criteria that objectively confirm or deny the presence of any mental illness. None. There are only correlates between brain and behavior. We have absolutely no understanding of how neural activity gives rise to consciousness, and any understanding thereof requires an entirely new [meta]physics.
If any psychiatric illnesses really were "brain diseases", they would be designated as NEUROLOGICAL DISORDERS. Neurosyphilis and Alzheimer's are two examples of diseases that used to be the domain of psychiatry, but now are in the domain of neurology. Therefore, if neurology is the domain of medicine that handles diseases of the brain, what, praytell, does psychiatry handle? Biological psychiatry purports to treat disorders with a biological basis that have no identified biological basis. This is logically impossible, and thus biological psychiatry is absurd.
If you concede that the above is correct, then the masturbatory insanity analogy becomes relevant, because there ceases to be anything wrong with the child's brain. What's left then, is, as Szasz puts it, "social control masquerading as medicine".
You really should hear this straight from the horse's mouth; my words are a flimsy reconstruction of his robust arguments. Check out www.szasz.com, especially the manifesto and "Szasz Materials".
I'm not proselytizing here; it's simply vital that anyone who's interested in mental illness be familiar with him. For a less extreme reactionary psychiatrist's view, read the excellent "Healing the Soul in the Age of the Brain" by Elio Frattaroli.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 15:07:55
In reply to There is something wrong with these children, posted by linkadge on June 3, 2004, at 14:28:10
There is a lot more to behavior and consciousness than simple pictures of glucose utilization in the brain, and no one can prove that this is a biological pathology yet. I am not anti-medication, nor do I think people with attentional problems are "making them up"; I am one of them. I am simply in favor of logic and good science, and there is no science which can show me that ADD is _CAUSED_ by a biological defect. There may be a biological defect, or perhaps some people's brains just work differently. Who is to say which SPECT scan pattern is "normal"? What's to keep the government from doing a SPECT scan on you and imprisoning you for having patterns indicative of certain political views? I'm not being paranoid, research is already being done to make this possible: http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/neuro/neuromarketing_nyt_apr20_04.html .
In the 1950s, biological psychiatrists got all excited because a lesion, dot, or something like that in a certain area of the brains of schizophrenics. This was the biological defect they'd been looking for! The excitement died down when investigators discovered it was the administration of Thorazine that created the lesion/dot.
Moral of the story is that scientific discoveries are exciting, but scientific proof is the goal of science.
Posted by linkadge on June 3, 2004, at 16:16:51
In reply to Re: There is something wrong with these children » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 15:07:55
Yes but it is fairly clear to us. Pretty much all drugs that enhance cognition turn on the prefrontal cortex. Criminals with little conscience lack prefrontal activity. As well, studies showing dammage to the prefrontal cortex results in impulsive behavior.
Alcohol can cause disinhibition by turning off the prefrontal cortex.
As well it has been shown that ADD'rs have abnormal PEA metabolism.
Sure, nothing is ever *sure* in water-world,
but clues do point to a certain cause. Please, by all means let another theory come allong to replace this one, but don't trash something that works.After all, ritalin worked first, then the theories about why it worked came into place.
Linkadge
Posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 17:00:06
In reply to Re: There is something wrong with these children, posted by linkadge on June 3, 2004, at 16:16:51
I'm not trashing the use of Ritalin per se, I'm questioning the diagnostic categories. Back when amphetamine was a decongestant in 1937, doctors found quite by accident that it calmed down "hyperactive" kids. However, "hyperactive" is a value judgement, and back then no one pretended that there was anything biologically wrong with the hyperactive kids--which is the notion I'm trashing. It is the NATURE of young children to be hyperactive! Sure, some kids perhaps have some biological abnormality in the brain. However, in using SPECT scans, one can never escape the value judgement of what is "normal" behavior. "Normal" with behavior, is ALWAYS social, and never medical. This is what I am opposing.
I am not opposing the use of drugs to help people live more functional and rewarding lives. If I opposed that in any way, you'd hardly find me trying my best to help people find the right medications. :)
Posted by linkadge on June 3, 2004, at 17:25:13
In reply to Re: There is something wrong with these children » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 17:00:06
Normal is what feels right.
Take it from the children. The ones who respond to the medication say things like, "for the first time I was able to think about weather or not to hit the other kid", or "I am able to focus on what is infront of me", or "finally my mind shut up".
I know the notion is that we want kids to be a certain way, and we are trying to drug them to make them that way. However, you will find that *if* these medications work, they help the child in many more ways than just in school such as:, on the playground, communicating their thoughts and feelings, more able to focus on their hobbies etc.
I knew one kid, that was so hyperactive, he couldn't even sit long enough to beat super mario brothers level 1-1. Even if this kid wasn't in school, he would have still found ritalin a life saver.
Ideally, the drugs are not used to force the children to be a certain way, but rather used to help the child take charge of his or her future, whatever that may be.
In the severest cases of ADD, a person would be very unlikely to hold any job, simply because they lack the ability to plan anything out.
It is just like antipsychotics. They are often prescribed these days to help things much less than true psychosis. We don't even have the tools to identify what exactly is happeneing in the brain of the psychotic. But we're not going to deprive John Nash of cholopromazine simply because be don't know exactly how it works, or what is wrong with Nash to begin with.
Linkadge
Posted by zeugma on June 3, 2004, at 18:06:11
In reply to Re: There is something wrong with these children » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 17:00:06
> I'm not trashing the use of Ritalin per se, I'm questioning the diagnostic categories. Back when amphetamine was a decongestant in 1937, doctors found quite by accident that it calmed down "hyperactive" kids. However, "hyperactive" is a value judgement, and back then no one pretended that there was anything biologically wrong with the hyperactive kids--which is the notion I'm trashing. It is the NATURE of young children to be hyperactive! Sure, some kids perhaps have some biological abnormality in the brain. However, in using SPECT scans, one can never escape the value judgement of what is "normal" behavior. "Normal" with behavior, is ALWAYS social, and never medical. This is what I am opposing.
Any normative judgment whatsoever takes us out of the realm of 'science' as you are defining it. Personally the interest in SPECT scans escapes me. I KNOW there is something wrong with my nervous system. There is a normative element in biology that I would argue is irreducible. MY CNS makes it impossible to function properly in society, or even when in isolation, because my sleep/wake and appetitive cycles become distorted. The promising line in psychiatric research appears to be in identifying those whose genes dispose them to become depressed, ADD, schizophrenic, etc., just as certain genetic influences on animals (I am thinking of 'transgenic' mice whose NE transporters have been removed) causes them to be less disposed to exhibit behavioral deficits in learned helplessness experiments. Psychiatry will eventually become a branch of neurobiology, not a branch of neurology, which studies gross aberrations in brain macrostructure such as lesions.
>
> I am not opposing the use of drugs to help people live more functional and rewarding lives. If I opposed that in any way, you'd hardly find me trying my best to help people find the right medications. :)
Posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 21:51:48
In reply to Re: There is something wrong with these children, posted by zeugma on June 3, 2004, at 18:06:11
The interest in spect scans was in re: linkadge's last post (although he said MRI, but I believe what he meant was SPECT, or fMRI).
I empathize with you, as I've always felt all my life that my CNS is broken. My life story is 99.44% the classic "inattentive ADD" life story. Without something like stimulants or desipramine--which thank God I stumbled upon because I'm now politically prohibited from taking stimulants due to a past drug problem--I cannot even come close to actualizing myself. There are psychological factors involved in my ADD strife as well, e.g. my lack of concentration becoming a self fulfilling prophecy. I do not understand why everyone seems to think that my position is untenable if I recognize that these disorders exist.
I feel you are "explaining away" the existence of mind. You are no doubt aware of the philosophical distinction between mind and brain; you probably know a hell of a lot more about philosophy of science than I do, anyway. There are correlates between mind and brain, but ultimately we do not live in the brain, we live in the mind. Moreover, one can make a cogent argument that we do not possess the epistemic tools necessary to apprehend the mind-brain link and bridge the so-called "explanatory gap".
Psychiatry means "healing the soul". I do not understand how a discipline that heals the soul could ever be considered part of neurobiology. No psychiatric disorder exists in a biological vacuum: Patients with major depression with successful antidepressant outcomes and those with successful psychotherapy outcomes are known to undergo the same neural changes. Are you sure all that's at work here in your suffering and recovery are the medications? Believe me, I am all too aware of how seductive it is to look for an explanation for one's suffering in neurotransmitters and receptors. There is obviously a neurobiological substrate to it; there is a neurobiological substrate to all consciousness! Saying that one's suffering is wholly rooted in neurobiology is, in my view, just as mistaken as those counselors who kept steering you away from it, for there is always mind, and there is always brain.
Posted by seeknsolace on June 4, 2004, at 5:43:39
In reply to Re: mind/brain, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 21:51:48
> The interest in spect scans was in re: linkadge's last post (although he said MRI, but I believe what he meant was SPECT, or fMRI).
>
> I empathize with you, as I've always felt all my life that my CNS is broken. My life story is 99.44% the classic "inattentive ADD" life story. Without something like stimulants or desipramine--which thank God I stumbled upon because I'm now politically prohibited from taking stimulants due to a past drug problem--I cannot even come close to actualizing myself. There are psychological factors involved in my ADD strife as well, e.g. my lack of concentration becoming a self fulfilling prophecy. I do not understand why everyone seems to think that my position is untenable if I recognize that these disorders exist.
>
> I feel you are "explaining away" the existence of mind. You are no doubt aware of the philosophical distinction between mind and brain; you probably know a hell of a lot more about philosophy of science than I do, anyway. There are correlates between mind and brain, but ultimately we do not live in the brain, we live in the mind. Moreover, one can make a cogent argument that we do not possess the epistemic tools necessary to apprehend the mind-brain link and bridge the so-called "explanatory gap".
>
> Psychiatry means "healing the soul". I do not understand how a discipline that heals the soul could ever be considered part of neurobiology. No psychiatric disorder exists in a biological vacuum: Patients with major depression with successful antidepressant outcomes and those with successful psychotherapy outcomes are known to undergo the same neural changes. Are you sure all that's at work here in your suffering and recovery are the medications? Believe me, I am all too aware of how seductive it is to look for an explanation for one's suffering in neurotransmitters and receptors. There is obviously a neurobiological substrate to it; there is a neurobiological substrate to all consciousness! Saying that one's suffering is wholly rooted in neurobiology is, in my view, just as mistaken as those counselors who kept steering you away from it, for there is always mind, and there is always brain.
>
>
>
>
So far these postings have been above my understanding but getting the grasp of it. One thing that hasnt been addressed but may merely be my own feelings and opinions.. cant ADD be caused by the individual's upbringing. Suffering from depression myself, I blame myself for my son's disposition. Maybe it was the lack of my parenting skills that catapulted him in being symptomatic of ADD. Tho the pdoc didnt say to me or my son "he is ADD". But explained to us how ritalin will help him, giving examples of an ADD person.Maybe its not strictly my fault. I can track hereditary depression back to my great grandma, everyone after her has been symptomatic of it.. it runs on both of my grandparents sides. But then again, looking back, maybe it was the parenting itself that caused the persons child to developed a depressed personality, hence passing it down to their child, but their own depression effecting their parenting skills.
So tough to say if it was the person or the disease. Or both. If I remember correctly, it only seems in the last ten years or so that the label of ADD has been frequently used.. it seems to be more prevelant in families that either are a single parent or families that have less then a quality standard of living/cohabitating.
I've worked with ADD children at the preschool level and their families so I have a little understanding but one glove doesnt fit everyone I know.
For me personally, I've noticed my son's decline at two seperate occassions, first when I had started working more frequently (always been a single parent), which was also a the time when he entered the school system and also more recently when his dad was imprisoned 5 yrs ago.. since then with passing time, he has become increasingly more difficult. Symptomatic of ADD. I feel my lack of being able to emotionally deal with him, but I still try my best, that my weaknesses added to his illness.
So with both he and I having a difficult upbringing as children, is it a disease of the brain or the disease of a social society that brought us where we are today?
Posted by sl on June 4, 2004, at 10:34:41
In reply to Re: mind/brain, posted by seeknsolace on June 4, 2004, at 5:43:39
> For me personally, I've noticed my son's decline at two seperate occassions, first when I had started working more frequently (always been a single parent), which was also a the time when he entered the school system and also more recently when his dad was imprisoned 5 yrs ago.. since then with passing time, he has become increasingly more difficult. Symptomatic of ADD. I feel my lack of being able to emotionally deal with him, but I still try my best, that my weaknesses added to his illness.
(I have a few things to add to this discussion but I wanted to first state that I'm depressive, with many symptoms of ADD either related to the depression or the meds I use to treat it.)
First, realize that during this time you are not the only thing in his life changing. He is growing up, hitting puberty, etc. The increase in problems with your son may have nothing to do with you. Puberty brings a big surge of hormones, remember, and this is also the point where society starts expecting more of him in terms of responsibility. It's not easy being a "young adult".
Second, have you thought about it the OTHER direction from "I'm causing it by not being there"?
Perhaps you being around helps him deal with his symptoms better. He has them all the time but when you're around you're able to give him enuf support that they aren't so obvious. I have friends like that, who can talk me out of a budding depression. I have my meds to keep me from going too far down, but the friends can help me live a more normal life.Third: Find yourself a support group!!! There are some, I'm sure you can find one to help you deal with these guilt issues.
> So with both he and I having a difficult upbringing as children, is it a disease of the brain or the disease of a social society that brought us where we are today?
>I agree with what was mentioned above: I think it's a case of the brain-functioning not matching the pressures of our society and the available social roles. Perhaps he would have made an excellent hunter. :/
I'm going to TRY to do some research into how other cultures deal with these sort of things.
I'm not sure how much is written but I'm going to find out.And finally, I agree you should give meds a try. I also think he should take it every day. Besides having better effects when taken regularly, his symptoms may be affecting his life in ways he can't even notice, hampering friendships, keeping him from learning things he really WANTS to learn (like sports maybe?), etc. And plus if he tries it and hates how it makes him feel, then maybe he'll be more willing to try the diet & exercise thing. (meanwhile, you can explore simple substitutions in things you make, whole wheat pastry flour and splenda both come to mind as easy painless ways to reduce processed white flour and sugar.)
Posted by Sad Panda on June 4, 2004, at 12:59:11
In reply to Re: mind/brain, posted by seeknsolace on June 4, 2004, at 5:43:39
> One thing that hasnt been addressed but may merely be my own feelings and opinions.. cant ADD be caused by the individual's upbringing. Suffering from depression myself, I blame myself for my son's disposition.
>
>
>Don't blame yourself, he was most likely born with ADD. Things like ADD, BiPolar & the various Psychotic illnesses are most likely congenital IMHO. I think illness such as Unipolar depression, the various anxieties & PTSD are a mix of congenital pre-disposition & life events.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by zeugma on June 4, 2004, at 20:47:24
In reply to Re: mind/brain, posted by Chairman_MAO on June 3, 2004, at 21:51:48
> The interest in spect scans was in re: linkadge's last post (although he said MRI, but I believe what he meant was SPECT, or fMRI).
>
> I empathize with you, as I've always felt all my life that my CNS is broken. My life story is 99.44% the classic "inattentive ADD" life story. Without something like stimulants or desipramine--which thank God I stumbled upon because I'm now politically prohibited from taking stimulants due to a past drug problem--I cannot even come close to actualizing myself. There are psychological factors involved in my ADD strife as well, e.g. my lack of concentration becoming a self fulfilling prophecy. I do not understand why everyone seems to think that my position is untenable if I recognize that these disorders exist.
Of course there are psychological factors, and self fulfilling prophecies wherever we turn. I don't think your position is untenable, because you recognize that these disorders exist. It is Szasz who does not think that these disorders exist- or rather, that they merit the name of 'disorder.' If he puts ADD which is treated by stimulants or desipramine on a par with masturbation treated by some kind of chastity belt, it is his position which is untenable.
>
> I feel you are "explaining away" the existence of mind. You are no doubt aware of the philosophical distinction between mind and brain; you probably know a hell of a lot more about philosophy of science than I do, anyway. There are correlates between mind and brain, but ultimately we do not live in the brain, we live in the mind. Moreover, one can make a cogent argument that we do not possess the epistemic tools necessary to apprehend the mind-brain link and bridge the so-called "explanatory gap".
I wrote my senior thesis on Colin mcGinn's "The Problem of Consciousness", where he argues as you do, that we may not possess the epistemic tools necessary to bridge the 'explanatory gap' between the neural level and that of consciousness. I prefer McGinn's position to that of Daniel Dennett, who to my mind 'explains consciousness away' (in his book misleadingly titled "Consciousness Explained"). Psychiatry sits uneasily on the interface between McGinn's levels. We are involved in a much deeper debate than anything Szasz engages, who appears to have a simple 'pathogen' model of illness. Depression, ADD, etc., do not fit this model. So, they are not illnesses. I certainly accept that depression, etc., do not fit szasz' model. If they did, a cure would be forthcoming, and none will be. For a model of consciousness, however, that may deal with mental illness in a more direct way than the high-theoretical speculations of McGinn and Dennett, I would look at J.A. Hobson's AIM model of consciousness, which is certainly crude, but it's a start, and is fascinating (at least to me). See "Dreaming", "The Dream Drugstore", and other works.
>
> Psychiatry means "healing the soul". I do not understand how a discipline that heals the soul could ever be considered part of neurobiology. No psychiatric disorder exists in a biological vacuum: Patients with major depression with successful antidepressant outcomes and those with successful psychotherapy outcomes are known to undergo the same neural changes. Are you sure all that's at work here in your suffering and recovery are the medications? Believe me, I am all too aware of how seductive it is to look for an explanation for one's suffering in neurotransmitters and receptors. There is obviously a neurobiological substrate to it; there is a neurobiological substrate to all consciousness! Saying that one's suffering is wholly rooted in neurobiology is, in my view, just as mistaken as those counselors who kept steering you away from it, for there is always mind, and there is always brain.I don't know what the causes are of the changes I am undergoing. I don't even know if they are for the better or worse half the time! I do, however, console myself with thoughts that what seemed like contemptible weakness are in fact expressions of a disordered CNS. It also occurs to me that one of the things the mind can occupy itself is with the brain, and that this preoccupation brings benefits (greater understanding of what is going in one's own head, possible insights into how others' brains' [and by extension, minds] work) and harms ( it becomes an obsession in itself, albeit one that is relatively socially acceptable. It is also very time-consuming, as I struggle to understand texts that are mostly unintelligible to me. "The fascination of what's difficult", as yeats once said.) i hope i have addressed your key points.
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Posted by Buckeye Fan on June 7, 2004, at 6:30:06
In reply to There is something wrong with these children, posted by linkadge on June 3, 2004, at 14:28:10
Linkage,
I certainly do NOT propose "sitting around doing nothing".
There is NO conclusive evidence that alleged
ADD kids can be diagnosed through MRI's....there is tons of eveidence however that show the negative effects of too much TV, Video Games, Palm Pilots. Internet Use..etc...among the young.This combined with little or no exercise, and poor dietary habits go along way in explaining
some, not al, but some of these diagnoses.Proper Herbal therapies under the care of a qualified health practioner..has helped thousand of kids without exposing them to the lon and short term effects of Ritalin and Adderal.
I am NOT advocating a total drug-free approach
I am trying to say there are BETTER drugs available than the ones mentioned above.
My other posts on the Alternatives to Ritalin
give several web links for those drugs.Buckeye Fan
Posted by linkadge on June 7, 2004, at 19:40:36
In reply to Re: There is something wrong with these children, posted by Buckeye Fan on June 7, 2004, at 6:30:06
A wholistic approach is always the best. Exercise, and proper nutrition and the fundementals to proper health. Alternative medicine should always be given a whirl before meds like ritalin. When these fall short however (and they do in some cases) I have no problem with kids on ritalin.
Linkadge
Posted by alohashirt on June 7, 2004, at 20:12:42
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.., posted by seeknsolace on June 2, 2004, at 19:51:01
I saw a pdoc 9 months ago for adult ADHD. SInce then have been taking Strattera and Concerta to good effect. In the interim my career is going better, I feel as if I am getting more achieved and I am very appreciative of the chance to address these real symptoms of distraction effectively. Concerta is a delayed release Ritalin and has worked wonders for me.
Everyone is different - it may take some exploration before you find the right solution, but don't write off a specific medication without doing your own investigation.
Good luck.
Posted by alohashirt on June 7, 2004, at 20:16:04
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.., posted by seeknsolace on June 2, 2004, at 19:59:13
Speaking just for myself, I feel the same physically and emotionally but I notice that I get distracted much less and I complete more tasks. I also seem to be better at sticking with uncomfortable or boring activities, which is a necessary skill in the workplace.
Posted by PaulbWell on June 8, 2004, at 17:43:50
In reply to Re: What does it feel like to be on Ritalin? (nm), posted by PaulbWell on June 8, 2004, at 16:59:58
Sometimes it helps me sleep, by warming up my frontal lobe (yes i can feel it) sometimes it quickly improves my mood (one of its originally advertised 1956 indications)in as little as 10 mins when placed sublingually,but mostly it just calms, centres me, and allows me to take in my surroundings rationally, by effectively treating my ADD.
Posted by seeknsolace on June 22, 2004, at 10:58:13
In reply to my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.., posted by seeknsolace on June 2, 2004, at 19:20:03
> After approx. 2 months of my son being in counseling, the therapist decided he might need meds.. told me make a appt with the pdoc to evaluate him.. we had the appt today and the pdoc put him on 10 mgs of ritalin. My son shows classic symptoms of Oppositional Defiant Disorder but also has behavior of ADHD. He's always been difficult but thought he would grow out of it but this past year has been a living hell.
>
> I dont feel comfortable about him being on ritalin, maybe because of the bad rep it has had.
>
> Does anyone have kids that is now or was ever on ritalin and can tell me what to expect.. or any of you that have been on it yourself, can give me some insight to wether this a route we should try or something else?
>
> Thanks--------------------------
well we tried the ritalin for a couple weeks, turned out not to be a good thing.. gave him a quick rush and after two hours he would crash accompanied by fatigue and headache.. this was a daily occurence, the doc is now going to try lexapro.. starting thursday.. if anyone had any personal experience with lexapro or kids who have, will you let me know what to expect for my son? thanx.
Posted by Maxime on June 22, 2004, at 11:59:22
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.. » seeknsolace, posted by seeknsolace on June 22, 2004, at 10:58:13
I would be VERY vigilant if my child was put on an antidepressant. I am sure you have been following the lastest news that ADs for kids can cause suicidal ideation and agitation and anger.
Did the doctor mention Adderall XR. It's a one dose in the morning stimulant so there is no crashing like on Ritalin. I would try it before an anti-depressant.
Maxime
> > After approx. 2 months of my son being in counseling, the therapist decided he might need meds.. told me make a appt with the pdoc to evaluate him.. we had the appt today and the pdoc put him on 10 mgs of ritalin. My son shows classic symptoms of Oppositional Defiant Disorder but also has behavior of ADHD. He's always been difficult but thought he would grow out of it but this past year has been a living hell.
> >
> > I dont feel comfortable about him being on ritalin, maybe because of the bad rep it has had.
> >
> > Does anyone have kids that is now or was ever on ritalin and can tell me what to expect.. or any of you that have been on it yourself, can give me some insight to wether this a route we should try or something else?
> >
> > Thanks
>
> --------------------------
> well we tried the ritalin for a couple weeks, turned out not to be a good thing.. gave him a quick rush and after two hours he would crash accompanied by fatigue and headache.. this was a daily occurence, the doc is now going to try lexapro.. starting thursday.. if anyone had any personal experience with lexapro or kids who have, will you let me know what to expect for my son? thanx.
Posted by seeknsolace on June 22, 2004, at 13:09:09
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.., posted by Maxime on June 22, 2004, at 11:59:22
> I would be VERY vigilant if my child was put on an antidepressant. I am sure you have been following the lastest news that ADs for kids can cause suicidal ideation and agitation and anger.
>
> Did the doctor mention Adderall XR. It's a one dose in the morning stimulant so there is no crashing like on Ritalin. I would try it before an anti-depressant.
>
> Maxime
>
> he alreayd has suicidal ideation, agitation and anger.Bipolar, anxiety/panick attacks, and in some cases hallucinations from mental illness runs on either my or his dad side of the family. I'm hoping to save him so he doesnt have to follow the hell I went thru in my teen years and it getting worse as an adult. I was clearly depressed even at his age and no one did anything to help me.
Posted by h on June 22, 2004, at 14:14:42
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.. » seeknsolace, posted by seeknsolace on June 22, 2004, at 10:58:13
I have taken ritalin myself. The initial feeling of "calm" is good but it doesn't last that long and the crash is very bad.
I know many people are against kids on meds, but I honestly believe that if I had had ADs as a young adult my life would have been much better. (Just my two cents on that one.)
One thing to consider: There are various time-release forms of ritalin that don't give you that up-crash thing. I believe that Concerta is one such, and there are others as well. If the Lexapro doesn't work out, you might want to look into those.
Peace and good wishes
h
Posted by Sad Panda on June 23, 2004, at 9:00:59
In reply to Re: my 12 yr old was prescribed ritalin today.. » seeknsolace, posted by seeknsolace on June 22, 2004, at 10:58:13
> > After approx. 2 months of my son being in counseling, the therapist decided he might need meds.. told me make a appt with the pdoc to evaluate him.. we had the appt today and the pdoc put him on 10 mgs of ritalin. My son shows classic symptoms of Oppositional Defiant Disorder but also has behavior of ADHD. He's always been difficult but thought he would grow out of it but this past year has been a living hell.
> >
> > I dont feel comfortable about him being on ritalin, maybe because of the bad rep it has had.
> >
> > Does anyone have kids that is now or was ever on ritalin and can tell me what to expect.. or any of you that have been on it yourself, can give me some insight to wether this a route we should try or something else?
> >
> > Thanks
>
> --------------------------
> well we tried the ritalin for a couple weeks, turned out not to be a good thing.. gave him a quick rush and after two hours he would crash accompanied by fatigue and headache.. this was a daily occurence, the doc is now going to try lexapro.. starting thursday.. if anyone had any personal experience with lexapro or kids who have, will you let me know what to expect for my son? thanx.
>
>Has he tried Nortriptyline or Desipramine? Both are NE reuptake inhibitors with some AD activity. I would try one of those before ever trying an SSRI on a child.
Cheers,
Panda.
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