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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Michael Bell on May 28, 2004, at 19:43:08
For those who've tried both alchohol and GHB, which was more effective for anxiety? Which is more prosocial? Also, does tolerance build up to both quickly?
Posted by zeugma on May 28, 2004, at 21:01:16
In reply to GHB(xyrem) vs. ALCOHOL, posted by Michael Bell on May 28, 2004, at 19:43:08
Michael,
Have you never tried alcohol? As a social phobic, I find tolerance to the anti-phobic qualities of alcohol builds up frighteningly quickly- that 'comfortable feeling' i get around others after several drinks tends to be the signal that A) I am getting very drunk and B) that 'feeling' is in the process of dissipating, resulting in either resignation to the fact that social phobia/inhibition- though hardly sobriety- is about to descend, or a higher- and soon much higher- 'dose' is required. This shows that 'intoxication' and anti-phobic effects are discrete, and for me at least, alcohol is a promise that never really delivers.
GHB has been mentioned to me by my therapist, since although I have never been formally diagnosed, I seem to have a pretty bad case of narcolepsy. Its anti-cataplectic actions can be mimicked by TCA's and by Strattera, and its anti-social-phobic- though not pro-social- effects might be in the same league as clonazepam's (wouldn't it be great to have these two go head to head in a study?). I probably will never take it for my narcolepsy or social phobia, so I will probably never get to compare the two. I have heard that it is one of the most unpredictable of molecules. But I also cannot imagine alcohol 'working' for social phobia. Are there any social phobics who got more than momentary relief from their SP, before they wound up on the floor?
Posted by Michael Bell on May 28, 2004, at 21:43:09
In reply to Re: GHB(xyrem) vs. ALCOHOL » Michael Bell, posted by zeugma on May 28, 2004, at 21:01:16
>
Sure, I definitely drink alcohol. Not often, but I consume a lot on the occasions that I do drink. It is extremely prosocial for me, especially when taking Picamilon. However, the prosocial effects are short-lived and tolerance does build up quickly.Regarding GHB, I believe it is a substance already found in the body. So the question is, if it is so effective for social phobia, could there be a GHB receptor/transmitter disfunction that Xyrem "fixes"? I'll probably never know, or at least not until I have a full understanding of all the safety issues.
For me, social phobia = social anxiety + reward deficiency. Acute alcohol intake seems to address both aspects. Benzos take care of the anxiety, but are not prosocial (and even seem to add to anhedonia).
Michael,
>
> Have you never tried alcohol? As a social phobic, I find tolerance to the anti-phobic qualities of alcohol builds up frighteningly quickly- that 'comfortable feeling' i get around others after several drinks tends to be the signal that A) I am getting very drunk and B) that 'feeling' is in the process of dissipating, resulting in either resignation to the fact that social phobia/inhibition- though hardly sobriety- is about to descend, or a higher- and soon much higher- 'dose' is required. This shows that 'intoxication' and anti-phobic effects are discrete, and for me at least, alcohol is a promise that never really delivers.
>
> GHB has been mentioned to me by my therapist, since although I have never been formally diagnosed, I seem to have a pretty bad case of narcolepsy. Its anti-cataplectic actions can be mimicked by TCA's and by Strattera, and its anti-social-phobic- though not pro-social- effects might be in the same league as clonazepam's (wouldn't it be great to have these two go head to head in a study?). I probably will never take it for my narcolepsy or social phobia, so I will probably never get to compare the two. I have heard that it is one of the most unpredictable of molecules. But I also cannot imagine alcohol 'working' for social phobia. Are there any social phobics who got more than momentary relief from their SP, before they wound up on the floor?
Posted by zeugma on May 28, 2004, at 22:11:40
In reply to Re: GHB(xyrem) vs. ALCOHOL » zeugma, posted by Michael Bell on May 28, 2004, at 21:43:09
Sure, I definitely drink alcohol. Not often, but I consume a lot on the occasions that I do drink. It is extremely prosocial for me, especially when taking Picamilon. However, the prosocial effects are short-lived and tolerance does build up quickly.
Regarding GHB, I believe it is a substance already found in the body. So the question is, if it is so effective for social phobia, could there be a GHB receptor/transmitter disfunction that Xyrem "fixes"? I'll probably never know, or at least not until I have a full understanding of all the safety issues.
For me, social phobia = social anxiety + reward deficiency. Acute alcohol intake seems to address both aspects. Benzos take care of the anxiety, but are not prosocial (and even seem to add to anhedonia). >
Anhedonia is a prominent symptom of my depression. Even when not depressed, I feel 'reward deficient' in the sense that it never seems worth my while to initiate social activity: I desire to isolate at all costs, although when I actually spend time with others it is not always with anhedonic results. So maybe the difficulty is with motivation, or with the self confidence necessary to initiate social actions? I already know I have serious dopamine issues- severe ADD and melancholia (reasonably fixed mood, when depressed it stays DOWN no matter what) which responds to NE- active TCA's, but only as far as far as mood and cognition go- they don't touch the desire for isolation/fear of initiating activity.
The GHB dyfunction theory is interesting. I believe a similar theory has been advanced to justify long-term benzodiazepine treatment, namely that some people with chronic anxiety unresponsive to other treatments (like me) have sub-sensitive GABA receptors. I actually believe this theory, since only a benzodiazepine has made it possible to make casual conversation with neighbors, etc. And closer relationships, once I get over the inordinate difficulty of beginning them (I have literally had nervous breakdowns trying to start relationships with people, it is a large reason i have suffered a relapse of depression recently) are only as problematic as might be expected when they involve someone with my ridiculous number of comorbidities. Could social initiative somehow be a function of a 'GHB' receptor/transmitter?
The next item on my list, however, is a stimulant, since my lack of initiative could also be related to chronic fatigue from narcolepsy. It is interesting, and maybe suggestive, that GHB, whick is now approved for narcolepsy, and stimulants (with a similar indication) have both been reported to be highly 'pro-social.'
Posted by btnd on May 29, 2004, at 13:49:16
In reply to Re: GHB(xyrem) vs. ALCOHOL » Michael Bell, posted by zeugma on May 28, 2004, at 21:01:16
> Have you never tried alcohol? As a social phobic, I find tolerance to the anti-phobic qualities of alcohol builds up frighteningly quickly-.......and for me at least, alcohol is a promise that never really delivers.
As a social-phobic I never actually tried using Alcohol as a "treatment" - I've only experienced it from the usage "from-time-to-time". And it was very-effective for SP/SA there. ALTHOUGH i need to say that GHB, combined with amphetamines, is more-effective for SP/SA, less toxic (alcohol is 1 of the most toxic substances, even more toxic than 95% of all illicit drugs!), GHB is actually healthy - it is good for sleep, narcolepsy, lowers cholesterol, is an anti-aging med: slows down heart-beat + lowers temperature + increases growth-hormone levels up to 16x (the most potent HGH agonist!), increases libido + the "longevity" of sex (aphrodisiac, the most potent three are: Yohimbine, GHB and Selegiline ; oh and Cocaine). I might forgot few things about GHB but if I recall - I'll post. Oh, it's great anti-depressant too ;-)
> I seem to have a pretty bad case of narcolepsy. Its anti-cataplectic actions can be mimicked by TCA's and by Strattera, and its anti-social-phobic- though not pro-social- effects might be in the same league as clonazepam's (wouldn't it be great to have these two go head to head in a study?).
In head-to-head studies I would think that clonazepam would be:
- more-addictive long-term
- the same as far as dissolving the social-anxieties
- THE MORE PRO-SOCIAL than clonazepam definitely
- would be beneficial for health, which cannot be said about benzos
> I probably will never take it for my narcolepsy or social phobia, so I will probably never get to compare the two. I have heard that it is one of the most unpredictable of molecules.
For narcolepsy it is very predictable. Read up www.xyrem.us . If you suffer from severe narcolepsy I'm 100% GHB (Xyrem) is THE MOST effective treatment for it, out of all meds available on the market.For social-phobia you need to watch your doses - not take more than (for me) 3g in less than 2 hours, and 2.5hrs-3hrs is the best for spacing the doses. YMMV
>But I also cannot imagine alcohol 'working' for social phobia. Are there any social phobics who got more than momentary relief from their SP, before they wound up on the floor?I cannot imagine either, that alcohol could be used long-term for SP/SA. And I'd like to bump the last q: Are there any social phobics who got more than momentary relief from their SP, before they wound up on the floor?
Posted by btnd on May 29, 2004, at 13:54:48
In reply to Re: GHB(xyrem) vs. ALCOHOL » zeugma, posted by Michael Bell on May 28, 2004, at 21:43:09
> >
> Sure, I definitely drink alcohol. Not often, but I consume a lot on the occasions that I do drink. It is extremely prosocial for me, especially when taking Picamilon. However, the prosocial effects are short-lived and tolerance does build up quickly.I havent tried Picamilon yet (i will definitely some-time soon). But I find Klonopin + 2/3 beers making me more pro-social. But amphetamines+GHB is better.
> Regarding GHB, I believe it is a substance already found in the body. So the question is, if it is so effective for social phobia, could there be a GHB receptor/transmitter disfunction that Xyrem "fixes"?Yes it is natural. The way GHB works via agonism at GHB receptors (the only anti-depressant that works via this agonism; although Amisulpride (Solian) has some action on it too) and GABA(B), probably GABA action is taking care of anxiety, and GHB receptor-action (which starts the process of building up the levels of dopamine) is making it so pro-social.
> For me, social phobia = social anxiety + reward deficiency. Acute alcohol intake seems to address both aspects.I agree. But only short-term I believe.
> Benzos take care of the anxiety, but are not prosocial (and even seem to add to anhedonia).
I also agree.
Posted by Michael Bell on May 29, 2004, at 14:06:29
In reply to Re: GHB(xyrem) vs. ALCOHOL » Michael Bell, posted by btnd on May 29, 2004, at 13:54:48
Thanks for the reply. What does Xyrem feel like in comparison to 2-3 beers? Also, how long have you been taking it for? Thanks.
> > >
> > Sure, I definitely drink alcohol. Not often, but I consume a lot on the occasions that I do drink. It is extremely prosocial for me, especially when taking Picamilon. However, the prosocial effects are short-lived and tolerance does build up quickly.
>
> I havent tried Picamilon yet (i will definitely some-time soon). But I find Klonopin + 2/3 beers making me more pro-social. But amphetamines+GHB is better.
>
> > Regarding GHB, I believe it is a substance already found in the body. So the question is, if it is so effective for social phobia, could there be a GHB receptor/transmitter disfunction that Xyrem "fixes"?
>
> Yes it is natural. The way GHB works via agonism at GHB receptors (the only anti-depressant that works via this agonism; although Amisulpride (Solian) has some action on it too) and GABA(B), probably GABA action is taking care of anxiety, and GHB receptor-action (which starts the process of building up the levels of dopamine) is making it so pro-social.
>
>
> > For me, social phobia = social anxiety + reward deficiency. Acute alcohol intake seems to address both aspects.
>
> I agree. But only short-term I believe.
>
>
> > Benzos take care of the anxiety, but are not prosocial (and even seem to add to anhedonia).
>
>
> I also agree.
>
Posted by btnd on May 29, 2004, at 15:49:10
In reply to Re: GHB(xyrem) vs. ALCOHOL » btnd, posted by Michael Bell on May 29, 2004, at 14:06:29
> Thanks for the reply.
No problem ;-)
> What does Xyrem feel like in comparison to 2-3 beers?
It feels more "genuine"/"less-health-toxic" than alcohol, more-empathic (GHB is considered one of empathogenics, like MDMA). You will sense a feeling of relaxation and well-being, accompanied by a benign wish to interact with other people.
PLUS, well, at the same time, you will notice that your ability to communicate intimately with people of other sex is simply there (normally I can't talk to women, which I haven't known for quite a while, I'm just too anxious+reward deficity symptom).The peculiar disinhibitive properties of GHB is also very probably related to another effect of GHB: especially depressed people will notice clearly that their (blocked) feelings return (FAST! the GHB begins to work in 5-10 mins).
This can easily be accompanied by a REWARDING time spent CRYING! Processing traumata seems to be facilitated AND accelerated by GHB. (The last remark is based is not only on my own experience. The part of the crying is something I've read about on other's opinions.)In fact, in the first weeks of my GHB-therapy, I could clearly focus on a painful issue, and feel the sadness associated with it and cry about it.
But if suddenly someone would drop by, I could as easily put the issue on the shelf and be open to conversation with the person that came by, and take it off the shelf to process it further -as long as I felt it to be necessary - just at will.
GHB is stimulating action and multimodality pleasure along with relieving stress/anxiety.
And the last thing: you will probably notice a (dramatic) increase in self-confidence, and self-esteem. (I did; I believe it is again related to the funny disinhibition GHB invokes: I don't really worry about all kinds of things anymore. Instead, I rely more on my own opinion.)
I noticed that this attitude strongly reduced my stress level, and further opened my communication channels with the outside world, as I am much less afraid of criticism now.
This effect, plus the sociability (empathogenic) action (which you will also find to be very rewarding) make GHB an extremely effective anti-depressant.
>Also, how long have you been taking it for? Thanks.
I've been taking it in a combination with Adderall, since approximately 2 months (April 2004). But I've been experimenting with GHB for quite some time (around since October 2002).
Posted by zeugma on May 29, 2004, at 16:00:55
In reply to Re: GHB(xyrem) vs. ALCOHOL » zeugma, posted by btnd on May 29, 2004, at 13:49:16
Thanks for the info about xyrem, I have looked at the PI sheets and followed some of the links which are very useful.
It seems that Xyrem and benzodiazepines are contraindicted. Also, TCA's (because they are sedatives). Xyrem, like clonazepam, caused depression in some who participated in clinical trials, unsure what to make of this. Clonazepam may have aggravated my condition in some ways but improved it in others, I agree with you that it is not pro-social at all. In fact I want to isolate even more on it. But as I told my pdoc yesterday, it makes me feel more 'normal' around others, and nothing has ever had anything like this effect.
Have you ever tried Provigil? Does Provigil cause a pro-social effect, and if so, how does it compare to amphetamine?
Posted by Michael Bell on May 29, 2004, at 16:33:12
In reply to Re: GHB(xyrem) vs. ALCOHOL » btnd, posted by zeugma on May 29, 2004, at 16:00:55
>
I know you asked about Provigil. I haven't taken that, but I do have a lot of experience with Adrafinil. Taken in combo with Amisulpride & Klono, it works pretty well for SP. However, its prosocial effects were inconsistent and fleeting. Sort of like a toned down version of the Adderall I'm taking now. And that's really the problem, right? Other than Nardil,(and Xyrem, according to btnd and others), there really isn't a single drug that attacks both the anxiety and reward deficiency part of social phobia with great efficacy.Right now, I take Klono & Adderall. Many people have said this combo is very prosocial for them. However, I find that the Adderall is making me hyperfocus and somewhat *less* social. I'm wondering maybe I've become tolerant to the prosocial effects and if adding memantine to the combo will alleviate that. I'm expecting a shipment of memantine to arrive shortly, so I'll keep the board posted.
Thanks for the info about xyrem, I have looked at the PI sheets and followed some of the links which are very useful.
>
> It seems that Xyrem and benzodiazepines are contraindicted. Also, TCA's (because they are sedatives). Xyrem, like clonazepam, caused depression in some who participated in clinical trials, unsure what to make of this. Clonazepam may have aggravated my condition in some ways but improved it in others, I agree with you that it is not pro-social at all. In fact I want to isolate even more on it. But as I told my pdoc yesterday, it makes me feel more 'normal' around others, and nothing has ever had anything like this effect.
>
> Have you ever tried Provigil? Does Provigil cause a pro-social effect, and if so, how does it compare to amphetamine?
Posted by btnd on May 29, 2004, at 19:30:56
In reply to Re: GHB(xyrem) vs. ALCOHOL memantine Q » zeugma, posted by Michael Bell on May 29, 2004, at 16:33:12
> >
> I know you asked about Provigil. I haven't taken that...I haven't taken it neither. Because of the price & my insurance doesn't cover it.
> I'm wondering maybe I've become tolerant to the prosocial effects and if adding memantine to the combo will alleviate that. I'm expecting a shipment of memantine to arrive shortly, so I'll keep the board posted.
Please do so! Or before your shipment arrives, you might try AmeSansVie's patent on DXM at 60mg/day (another NDMA antagonist, just like memantine) to lower tolerance to it.
Or maybe you would be better responder to Dexedrine.
>
>
> Thanks for the info about xyrem, I have looked at the PI sheets and followed some of the links which are very useful.
> >
> > It seems that Xyrem and benzodiazepines are contraindicted. Also, TCA's (because they are sedatives). Xyrem, like clonazepam, caused depression in some who participated in clinical trials, unsure what to make of this. Clonazepam may have aggravated my condition in some ways but improved it in others, I agree with you that it is not pro-social at all. In fact I want to isolate even more on it. But as I told my pdoc yesterday, it makes me feel more 'normal' around others, and nothing has ever had anything like this effect.
> >
> > Have you ever tried Provigil? Does Provigil cause a pro-social effect, and if so, how does it compare to amphetamine?
>
>
Posted by Carlos C on May 30, 2004, at 3:42:46
In reply to Re: GHB(xyrem) vs. ALCOHOL » zeugma, posted by btnd on May 29, 2004, at 13:49:16
@btnd
What country are you in? Has a doctor prescribed you Xyrem?
I am very pro-ghb. I think it's horrible how the media had demonized it. That along with many other substances. Purely out of ignorance and/or capitalism.
I have found GHB to save me from suicide quite a few times. Tolerance is not an issue. At least not with me or anyone else I've spoken to that has used it. I can not find a doctor is will prescribe me Xyrem. I also do not have insurance and the outragous price would surely put me further in debt. It's about the same price to obtain it "illegally" from the black-market. The risks have become to high as well.
Please let me know how you were able to find treatment. Thank you.
Posted by btnd on May 31, 2004, at 2:54:51
In reply to Re: GHB(xyrem) vs. ALCOHOL » btnd, posted by Carlos C on May 30, 2004, at 3:42:46
Posted by Carlos C on May 31, 2004, at 4:58:22
In reply to Re: GHB(xyrem).Poland.I used to get Xyrem.Now GHB (nm) » Carlos C, posted by btnd on May 31, 2004, at 2:54:51
If so, what other countries do you know where GHB is not illegal?
Posted by btnd on May 31, 2004, at 12:06:26
In reply to Is GHB legal in Poland? » btnd, posted by Carlos C on May 31, 2004, at 4:58:22
> If so, what other countries do you know where GHB is not illegal?
It is in the same category scheduled as Valium,Klonopin etc. GBL on the other hand is perfectly legal.I know that in France GHB is legal, in Russia, Ukraine. GBL is legal also in UK, and most eastern European countries.
Posted by Carlos C on May 31, 2004, at 16:40:48
In reply to Re: Is GHB legal in Poland? » Carlos C, posted by btnd on May 31, 2004, at 12:06:26
Thank you so much btnd. I plan to visit a eastern European country sometime soon for treatment. Could you please contact me through email? ppgt94@hotmail.com
Posted by hoover on June 7, 2005, at 3:19:04
In reply to Re: Is GHB legal in Poland? ?Carlos C, posted by btnd on May 31, 2004, at 12:06:26
> > If so, what other countries do you know where GHB is not illegal?
>
>
> It is in the same category scheduled as Valium,Klonopin etc. GBL on the other hand is perfectly legal.
>
> I know that in France GHB is legal, in Russia, Ukraine. GBL is legal also in UK, and most eastern European countries.RepublicDoes anyone know the legal status of GBL in the Czech Republic?
This is the end of the thread.
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