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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Leonora on April 5, 2000, at 17:44:58
I've been taking fat burner type products for about six months, and now find that when I do not, I feel like my brain is in a fog. I have no energy whatsoever. What's the best way to wean oneself from this stuff? Others out there beware!
Posted by AndrewB on April 5, 2000, at 21:20:54
In reply to Hooked on ephedra, posted by Leonora on April 5, 2000, at 17:44:58
Leonora,
Thanks for your ephedra warning. It sounds like a nasty thing to get habituated to. I have no medical training but I'll give you my opinion never the less on what may help you get off the stuff. Your andrenergic receptors have become less sensitive to stimulation due to the constant use of ephedra or possibly you just have norepinephrine depletion. Presumably if you quit cold turkey your body will eventually readjust, meanwhile you will be foggy headed and tired. If you can't handle cold turkey, a possibility is to start taking a norepinephrine boosting medicine like wellbutrin or reboxetine and once the medicine kicks in you probably could go off ephedra without withdrawel symptoms. Then presumably after awhile you could go off the medicine itself. By the way, people whose depression or poor energy or poor concentration are helped by ephedra, albeit temporarily, may have a good response to reboxetine or wellbutrin.
------------------------------------------------
http://www.mapoison.org/ctr/9607ephedra.htmlCLINICAL TOXICOLOGY REVIEW Vol. 18, No. 10 July 1996
Clinical Toxicology Review is published monthly by the Massachusetts Poison Control SystemEPHEDRA
Ephedrine is a sympathomimetic drug that stimulates both a- and B-adrenergic receptors. In addition to its direct effects, ephedrine also releases norepinephrine from its storage sites. When used in therapeutic doses, ephedrine primarily has respiratory and cardiovascular effects. Ephedrine acts as a bronchial smooth muscle relaxant by stimulating B2-adrenergic receptors. Positive inotropic effects of ephedrine are due to the stimulation of B1-adrenergic receptors in the heart. Ephedrine can have variable effects on the vasculature and can cause either vasodilation through stimulation of the B2-adrenergic receptors or vasoconstriction through stimulation of the a1-adrenergic receptors. The administration of therapeutic doses of ephedrine typically results in cardiac stimulation and an elevated systolic and diastolic blood pressure. However, when ephedrine is administered more frequently or for prolonged periods of time, tachyphylaxis to its effects on the heart, vasculature and bronchial smooth muscle may be observed. Depletion of norepinephrine stores by ephedrine is believed to be responsible for the tachyphylaxis that develops to the cardiac and pressor effects. However, this mechanism is not responsible for the decreased response of bronchial smooth muscle to ephedrine.(10
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Posted by DC on April 5, 2000, at 23:45:54
In reply to Re: Hooked on ephedra, posted by AndrewB on April 5, 2000, at 21:20:54
Ephedra is not a good thing to take long term because it can backfire as you experienced. I used to work at a health food store so I know a lot about supplements. The best ones to take for energy are the adaptogens: Ginseng, Ashwaganda, Garlic, royal jelly, etc. These herbs are good for stress and energy and they won't backfire like the ephedra.
Posted by michael on April 6, 2000, at 2:29:48
In reply to Re: Hooked on ephedra, posted by AndrewB on April 5, 2000, at 21:20:54
> Leonora,
>
> Thanks for your ephedra warning. It sounds like a nasty thing to get habituated to. I have no medical training but I'll give you my opinion never the less on what may help you get off the stuff. Your andrenergic receptors have become less sensitive to stimulation due to the constant use of ephedra or possibly you just have norepinephrine depletion. Presumably if you quit cold turkey your body will eventually readjust, meanwhile you will be foggy headed and tired. If you can't handle cold turkey, a possibility is to start taking a norepinephrine boosting medicine like wellbutrin or reboxetine and once the medicine kicks in you probably could go off ephedra without withdrawel symptoms. Then presumably after awhile you could go off the medicine itself. By the way, people whose depression or poor energy or poor concentration are helped by ephedra, albeit temporarily, may have a good response to reboxetine or wellbutrin.
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> http://www.mapoison.org/ctr/9607ephedra.html
>
> CLINICAL TOXICOLOGY REVIEW Vol. 18, No. 10 July 1996
> Clinical Toxicology Review is published monthly by the Massachusetts Poison Control System
>
> EPHEDRA
>
> Ephedrine is a sympathomimetic drug that stimulates both a- and B-adrenergic receptors. In addition to its direct effects, ephedrine also releases norepinephrine from its storage sites. When used in therapeutic doses, ephedrine primarily has respiratory and cardiovascular effects. Ephedrine acts as a bronchial smooth muscle relaxant by stimulating B2-adrenergic receptors. Positive inotropic effects of ephedrine are due to the stimulation of B1-adrenergic receptors in the heart. Ephedrine can have variable effects on the vasculature and can cause either vasodilation through stimulation of the B2-adrenergic receptors or vasoconstriction through stimulation of the a1-adrenergic receptors. The administration of therapeutic doses of ephedrine typically results in cardiac stimulation and an elevated systolic and diastolic blood pressure. However, when ephedrine is administered more frequently or for prolonged periods of time, tachyphylaxis to its effects on the heart, vasculature and bronchial smooth muscle may be observed. Depletion of norepinephrine stores by ephedrine is believed to be responsible for the tachyphylaxis that develops to the cardiac and pressor effects. However, this mechanism is not responsible for the decreased response of bronchial smooth muscle to ephedrine.(10
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------Ephedrine is made from ephedra, I believe. It's kind of a "refined" ephedra, so I think probably a bit more potent....
But as Andrew's post explains, ephedrine is a CNS stimulant, and releases the stored norepinephrine.
I would think that like other stimulants, if you've gotten used to taking it, and built up a tolerance, you'll probably experience some type of withdrawl if you stop suddenly. So perhaps trying to taper off - gradually reducing your dosage, rather than going cold turkey...? (I have no medical training either)
One other idea I'll toss out is another med I've been looking into lately - adrafinil. I've just started to look into it, but IF I understand correctly, it's essentially a stimulant, but not habit-forming.
It's more specific with respect to which receptors it stimulates - I think it focuses on norepinephrine, w/o stimulating the dopamine receptors, and thereby avoiding the habit forming tendency of some of the other stimulants...? Like I said, not exactly sure if all of that's correct...
Perhaps someone has a better handle on it and can confirm/deny the different aspects I've mentioned (or neglected to mention)? I hope all of that's at least somewhat coherent...
michael
Posted by FP on April 6, 2000, at 9:53:41
In reply to Hooked on ephedra, posted by Leonora on April 5, 2000, at 17:44:58
I'm not a doctor either, but I have taken a lot of either "natural" ephedra type products or OTC meds containing ephidrine. I agree with the posters who suggest a gradual reduction rather than cold turkey - as long as you're not the addictive type who'll drag it out indefinitely.
If you decide to go Cold Turkey, the good news is that the really bad fog seems to lift after a couple of days; meybe even less. (It's possible you might get an *incredible* headache during this period - treat with asprin / advil and a cup of coffee or two)
You might also want to read the laabel on the pills you'r taking. They probably also contain a *ton* of caffeine: it's in the ingredient "Guarana" (sp?). The label should have footnotes in tiny type saying how many milligrams of caffeine there actually is, but you may have to squint to read it.
I've seen some of these things that contained the equivelent of 4-6 cups of coffee per pill. That may also be why you feel "foggy."
If you find a depression setting in that doesn't lift after a few days, than the medicines other posters suggested - or Paxil, Welbutrin, Serzone, and some others I don't remember - all raise the body's norepinephrine (sp?) level, I believe. That's probably gist for another thread....
Good luck. Please, let us know how you make out with this problem.
FP
Posted by CarolAnn on April 6, 2000, at 10:24:26
In reply to Re: Hooked on ephedra, posted by FP on April 6, 2000, at 9:53:41
I'm curious about what kind of effect you all have gotten with ephedra products. I have taken a few different ones, and they never give me any energy at all. They just make my heart pound really hard and my hands shake, but I still can't get up off the couch and get anything done. Anyone else experience ephedra (ma huang) this way? CarolAnn
Posted by michael on April 6, 2000, at 18:18:26
In reply to Re: Hooked on ephedra (curious), posted by CarolAnn on April 6, 2000, at 10:24:26
> I'm curious about what kind of effect you all have gotten with ephedra products. I have taken a few different ones, and they never give me any energy at all. They just make my heart pound really hard and my hands shake, but I still can't get up off the couch and get anything done. Anyone else experience ephedra (ma huang) this way? CarolAnn
I've mainly had experience w/effedrine - have tried some of the herbals, and never got the same effect... Herbals left me w/more of a too much caffeine type feeling like you mentioned...Ephedrine affected me like it sounds like stimulants (ritalin/adderall/etc) affect the other people here - although I'm guessing it's less potent...
It just helped me to be able to concentrate, focus, get things finished, rather than just spinning my wheels, trying to finish... (at work or at home), to manage to get going and start doing whaterver... (instead of staying on the couch, putting it off again and again...) Just a little extra energy, mental & physical, but makes a big difference for me...
I also have a friend who's an accountant, and takes ephedrine the first three months of the year, when he's working 6 days a week, 8 - 12 hours a day. Helps him to be productive at work during the long hours (focus/concentration/etc.) Hope that answers your questions somewhat...
micahel
Posted by Lora on March 24, 2001, at 23:55:03
In reply to Re: Hooked on ephedra (curious), posted by michael on April 6, 2000, at 18:18:26
Just started Matabolite today..so far so good..feel like I could run circles around the house! hahaha.. Will keep you posted, Lora
Posted by JackieO on August 5, 2002, at 23:51:22
In reply to Re: Hooked on ephedra (curious), posted by michael on April 6, 2000, at 18:18:26
> > I'm curious about what kind of effect you all have gotten with ephedra products. I have taken a few different ones, and they never give me any energy at all. They just make my heart pound really hard and my hands shake, but I still can't get up off the couch and get anything done. Anyone else experience ephedra (ma huang) this way? CarolAnn
>
>
> I've mainly had experience w/effedrine - have tried some of the herbals, and never got the same effect... Herbals left me w/more of a too much caffeine type feeling like you mentioned...
>
> Ephedrine affected me like it sounds like stimulants (ritalin/adderall/etc) affect the other people here - although I'm guessing it's less potent...
>
> It just helped me to be able to concentrate, focus, get things finished, rather than just spinning my wheels, trying to finish... (at work or at home), to manage to get going and start doing whaterver... (instead of staying on the couch, putting it off again and again...) Just a little extra energy, mental & physical, but makes a big difference for me...
>
> I also have a friend who's an accountant, and takes ephedrine the first three months of the year, when he's working 6 days a week, 8 - 12 hours a day. Helps him to be productive at work during the long hours (focus/concentration/etc.) Hope that answers your questions somewhat...
> micahel
I have been taking Metabolife/Metabolite/Xenedrine and other products like those for approximately a year. Everyone knows that's a no-no, but I've become so... I guess "hooked" is the word. I don't think it's a physical addiction to me. It's more of a psychological one. I'm so afraid to go off of the pills because I've lost 55 pounds (the most I've ever lost with one method) and I feel wonderful. I'm getting compliments all the time, I can fit into clothes that I haven't fit into since high school and I just love the whole idea of being thin. At 165 pounds and 5'2", that's still pretty heavy, and I'd like to lose at least another 20 more pounds, and I don't want to stop taking the pills for fear that I will gain weight again. The scary part of that is that my doctor told me that this drug (efedrine) is one cause for perfectly healthy people to "drop dead" with no warning. So, obviously I need to stop taking this drug! I would never suggest that anyone even start to take this medication if there's even the slightest past personal history or family history of addiction. Addiction is quite common in my family and I believe that my problem is related to this.
Posted by irwind on April 16, 2004, at 17:15:13
In reply to Re: Hooked on ephedra, posted by AndrewB on April 5, 2000, at 21:20:54
what is the legal status of ephedrine now.
is all forms of ephedrine banned or is it just the tablet form from which - speed (methamphetamine) can be derived that is illegal.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 17, 2004, at 10:44:54
In reply to legal status of ephedra, posted by irwind on April 16, 2004, at 17:15:13
> what is the legal status of ephedrine now.
Let's redirect this thread to Psycho-Babble Alternative now. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040225/msgs/337143.html
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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