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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sugarpuss on February 28, 2004, at 4:15:11
I'm curious what the effects of the newer Stacker 2s without ephedra are. I'm interested in having something to wake me up, but having an extremely high heart rate and shaking/sweating doesn't sound pleasant, but I'm wondering, will those symptoms be eliminated now that there is no ephedra in them?
I can handle coke and meth fine, but neither of those make me NOTICE my elevated pulse, etc., because I'm high and I don't care/notice, and it's not something I can feel without actually checking my pulse. I know that plain caffeine pills like Vivarin used to make me feel like crap, but I haven't taken anything like that or this in years.
My friend picked me some up tonight but I'm a bit wary about taking them, since I am unsure of the side effects.
Should I start with a half? Should I avoid them altogether? I like the idea of a nice legal way to stay alert and bouncy, but it seems too easy to just run to the store and buy that without bad stuff happening. As you can tell, I'm uber-paranoid. Heh.
Anyone?
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 28, 2004, at 6:55:34
In reply to Ephedra Free Stacker 2s?, posted by sugarpuss on February 28, 2004, at 4:15:11
The ingredients:
Serving Size (cap) 1
Servings 100
-Proprietary Blend... 196mg (Kola Nut Seeds 3mg caffeine, Citrus Aurantium 2mg synepehrine, Cassia Mimosoides, White Willow Bark)
-Caffeine (anhydrous)... 200mg
-TriGuggulyptoid Complex... 25mg (green tea leaves <1mg caffeine group alkaloids, guggulsterone, gymnema.)As you can see, the only psychoactive ingredient is 200mg of anhydrous caffeine.
This is identical to Vivarin. If you want a legal energy boost that isn't caffeinated, look into ginseng, rhodiola rosea, NADH (expensive), picamilon, various amino acids, etc., etc. This post will be redirected to psycho-babble-alternative.Insofar as a legal high, you will find nothing like that advertised as such--or readily available. High people do not make good taxpayers.
Posted by eugenia on February 28, 2004, at 11:24:59
In reply to Re: Ephedra Free Stacker 2s? » sugarpuss, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 28, 2004, at 6:55:34
Isn't citrus auratium synephrine another form of psuedephedrine? I don't know latin, but maybe citrus auratium is bitter orange. And synephrine is definitely a stimulant like caffeine.
Everytime I have taken diet pills with ephedra I felt terrible and snippy. Of course, some of that is because I have a tendency to not let myself eat, but I really think ephedra-like substances can mess up your mood. I recently had to have a bunch of lidocaine injections for a dermatological procedure and the epinephrine in the shot gave me a major panic episode, complete with uncontrolled crying, feelings of doom and racing heart.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on February 29, 2004, at 10:35:46
In reply to Re: Ephedra Free Stacker 2s? » sugarpuss, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 28, 2004, at 6:55:34
According to http://www.ez-weightloss.com/ez-weightloss/productstacker2ephedrafree.html, the ingredients are quite a bit different than those C_MAO listed. One capsule contains:
~A proprietary blend of Citrus aurantium (from fruit supplying 6mg synephrine), Cassia nomane extract, kola nut extract (from seeds supplying 200mg caffeine), white willow bark, and chromium picolinate -- 520mg
I recently began taking two capsules of Twinlab's Ripped Fuel Ephedra Free during every meal. According to the labelling, two capsules contain:
~Bitter orange fruit [aka Citrus aurantium or zhi-shi] extract (standardized for 6% synephrine alkaloids [I believe this is a goof -- it should read "adrenergic alkaloids"; other alkaloids, such as octopamine, hordenine, and tyramine, are included in this 6%]) -- 325mg
~L-phenylalanine -- 50mg
~Guarana seed extract (22% caffeine) -- 800mg [176mg caffeine]
~A proprietary blend of St. John's wort extract (aerial parts; standardized for 0.9mg hypericin), green tea leaf extract, quercetin, citrus bioflavonoid complex, ginger root, and cayenne fruit -- 310mgNormally this genre of supplements is taken 30-60 minutes *before* eating to suppress appetite, but appetite suppression is not the ultimate purpose of the new "Synephrine Generation" pills, though it does occur for many who use it. It is hypothesized that it is the octopamine alkaloid which is responsible for this effect, as current belief is that this is the chemical responsible for influencing insects not to eat the fruit.
Synephrine (aka oxedrine) only resembles ephedrine in a few respects -- in my opinion, a standard dose of synephrine is to a standard dose of ephedrine what a few sprays of Neo-Synephrine (active ingredient phenylephrine -- not to be confused with synephrine) nasal spray is to a threshold effect dose of d-amphetamine.
Synephrine is classified as a semi-selective sympathomimetic because it targets certain tissues (such as adipose, or fatty, tissue) to a far greater extent than others (the heart, for example).
Ephedrine, on the other hand, is a non-selective sympathomimetic which affects many tissues equally, leading to often undesirable and occasionally dangerous side effects. This occurs primarily when (ab)used in the doses often used for weight loss which typically far exceed the 8mg/dose; 24mg/day the FDA had set as a relatively safe limit before deciding to pull the plug altogether.
Long story short, research has shown that use of ephedra-containing supplements is often associated with cardiovascular side effects including hypertension and heart palpitations, while researchers at Mercer University in Atlanta have concluded that Citrus aurantium extract has no effect on heart rate, blood pressure, etc. It does, however, share the much more benign effects of ephedra which include lipolysis, thermogenesis, increased metabolism, and, in some, increased energy and mild anorectic effect. And even with this mild stimulant action, the combination of alkaloids in Citrus aurantium does not appear to exhibit the negative CNS effects of ephedra. This can be explained more technically by the specific affinity of zhi-shi alkaloids for only certain adrenergic receptors -- they vastly prefer stimulating beta-3 adrenergic receptors, unlike ephedra which strongly stimulates adrenergic receptors beta-1, -2, -3, and (to a lesser degree) alpha-1. It is the beta-3 receptor which is responsible for the beneficial effects of synephrine listed above, and it is the other receptors which lead to hyperstimulation of cardiac muscle, hypertension, CNS overstimulation, and very strong anorectic effects.
At least two clinical studies affirm synephrine-containing supplements as useful for promoting weight loss, and at least three support the theory that synephrine use results in enhanced thermogenesis (calorie expenditure). Researchers in the Department of Physiology at Georgetown University conclude that, "Citrus aurantium may be the best thermogenic substitute for ephedra."
As for the other ingredients in Stacker 2 EF:
1. Cassia nomane is the botanical name for a member of the cinnamon family which contains compounds that inhibit the enzyme lipase. Lipase is responsible for fat digestion, and so less fat is absorbed from the food you eat by about 30%. That would make this ingredient as potent as the prescription lipase inhibitor Xenical (orlistat).
2. Kola nut is just the source of caffeine they decided to use in this product -- it's usually either kola nut, guarana, yerba mate, or plain old anhydrous caffeine. Kola nut offers up plenty of other helpful alkaloids as well though -- theobromine, tannins, d-catechin, l-epicatechin, kolatin, kolanin, phlobabens, and perhaps most interestingly, betaine (aka trimethylglycine [TMG]). TMG is a popular nutritional supplement which, like SAMe, is a methyl donor and can have very positive effects on mood and energy utilization.
3. White willow bark completes the pseudo-ECA stack that this product is. An ECA stack consists of ephedra, caffeine, and aspirin, all of which act synergistically to promote weight loss. White willow bark is a source of salicin and other salicylates, which are precursors to acetyl salicylic acid -- better known as aspirin. But certain chemicals in white willow bark possess an advantage over synthetic aspirin when it comes to weight loss -- the tannins provide even more synergy, helping to elevate energy (calorie) expenditure via interference with prostaglandin production and inhibiting the breakdown of norepinephrine.
4. The chromium picolinate I personally wouldn't take. It's aggressively marketed for weight loss, but meticulously crafted studies have shown it useless for this -- it may, however, be helpful for type 2 diabetics or those at risk of developing it since it helps insulin "perform" more efficiently. Even studies regarding this have produced very mixed results. But that's not the reason I'd avoid it -- there is speculation resulting from laboratory studies that suggests chromium in its picolinate form may cause cancer by damaging genetic material. In fact, in May '03 the Food Standards Agency of England warned consumers not to take it for this reason. All that said, short-term use probably won't turn you into a mutant. :-)
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 29, 2004, at 17:40:19
In reply to Re: Ephedra Free Stacker 2s?, posted by Ame Sans Vie on February 29, 2004, at 10:35:46
Wow, you sure know a lot more about weight loss supplements than I do. However, this person wanted increased energy in the form of a "high", and the only significantly psychoactive chemical in there is caffeine. They were asking if it was different than Vivarin. For all intents and purposes, 200mg of caffeine with weight-loss bells and whistles is still 200mg of caffeine. They said they didn't like caffeine, so why would they use the product for psych. purposes?
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 4, 2004, at 7:51:54
In reply to Ephedra Free Stacker 2s?, posted by sugarpuss on February 28, 2004, at 4:15:11
> I'm curious what the effects of the newer Stacker 2s without ephedra are...
I'd like to redirect this thread to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040225/msgs/320043.html
Thanks,
Bob
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