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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Mr. Scott on February 29, 2004, at 22:11:23
I am convinced that the benzodiazepine I am taking is not doing me any good. In fact I have a suspicion that it is actually hurting me. I want to taper it off and discontinue.
I am currently taking .5mg of Klonopin daily (.25mg twice daily), but have been taking benzos for many many years.
Can anyone offer advice on how to complete this successfully without winding up in a psych hospital? I'm already depressed.
Thanks,
Scott
Posted by rainee on February 29, 2004, at 23:07:46
In reply to Benzo Taper Questions, posted by Mr. Scott on February 29, 2004, at 22:11:23
http://www.benzo.org.uk is full of info..
Posted by Sad Panda on March 1, 2004, at 1:29:33
In reply to Re: Benzo Taper Questions » Mr. Scott, posted by rainee on February 29, 2004, at 23:07:46
> http://www.benzo.org.uk is full of info..
http://www.benzo.org.uk are a bunch of benzophobes, but they do know how to get you off them. :)
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by rainee on March 1, 2004, at 2:11:43
In reply to Re: Benzo Taper Questions » rainee, posted by Sad Panda on March 1, 2004, at 1:29:33
well I for one have been though the hell that one can go through detoxing from benzos. Everyone is different I was hopsitalized and very ill for a long time. No joke.. some how your comment I found insulting.
Posted by Sad Panda on March 1, 2004, at 2:57:13
In reply to Re: Benzo Taper Questions » Sad Panda, posted by rainee on March 1, 2004, at 2:11:43
> well I for one have been though the hell that one can go through detoxing from benzos. Everyone is different I was hopsitalized and very ill for a long time. No joke.. some how your comment I found insulting.
>
>I apoligise if it sounds insulting, but Benzos are some of the safest drugs there is & certainly life savers for alot of people.
What caused you to become hospitalized?
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by alathea on March 1, 2004, at 3:06:39
In reply to Re: Benzo Taper Questions » Sad Panda, posted by rainee on March 1, 2004, at 2:11:43
OK, so this is my question. Are they ever a good idea? I have been freaking out in some kind of manic, mixed manic freaky thing for three weeks or something, and supposedly Lorazepam is supposed to stop me from doing anything really stupid and self destructive--but I REALLY don't want to take them for too long. What do you think is too long?
Next stop is atypical antipsychotics and no way will I be able to finish my quarter that sedated.
Posted by cubbybear on March 1, 2004, at 3:23:57
In reply to Re: Benzo Taper Questions, posted by alathea on March 1, 2004, at 3:06:39
Hey,
Scott asked for help with the tapering process and so far, no one has answered his question, right? So maybe he'd like to hear something like this:
Try to feel your own way, by decreasing a very small amount (.125 mg=1/4 of a pill) every week or two. If you get withdrawal anxiety or other symptoms, you might have to get back to this board for more advice.
Presently, I'm at the tail end of my taper. Although I consider the www.benzo.org people to be benzophobic, they do have experience with tapering. I decided to follow their advice in order to avoid withdrawal anxiety. Switch over to the equivalent dosage of *Valium* (diazepam). For a .50 mg. daily dose of Klonopin, that would be 10 mg. of Valium and follow their tapering schedule. I've been doing that and so far, it seems to be a good way to go.
Unfortunately, there's no way to predict how individual people respond to their tapering; some do much better than others and it depends on many factors. But the two most important rules are: never go cold turkey, and conversely, decrease your Klonopin dosage very slowly. Avoid the temptation to rush through it.
Posted by jlbl2l on March 1, 2004, at 7:20:45
In reply to Re: Benzo Taper Questions » Sad Panda, posted by rainee on March 1, 2004, at 2:11:43
i also found that comment very insulting. i was on klonopin and now i have seizures all the time after i tapered off. you guys call that site benzophobes (have you read the whole thing even???) so i guess i should call people taking benzos benzo-addicts. eh? hope you dont have seizures like me.
Posted by Mr. Scott on March 1, 2004, at 9:22:46
In reply to Re: Benzo Taper Questions, posted by jlbl2l on March 1, 2004, at 7:20:45
I did not mean to cause controversey here. I'm not a politician.
Benzo's are often necessary, and if there was something better for agitation, mixed states, or anxiety in every case, then we'd all be on that something.
But the truth of the matter is for me anyways...is that after many many years of benzo use, they probably make me more depressed and anxious than I would normally be today. However at one point I surely would have killed myself without them. The problem lies with available science and not with us individually, and for some long-time benzo users no problem exists at all.
Similarly...At this point SSRI's do more damage than good for me too after 12 years of taking them. Doesn't mean they aren't life savers for the majority.
All I want to know is how to get off of benzo's without paralyzing rebound and withdrawal and how others have managed. I'm not taking much so it shouldn't be too bad...I hope.
Scott
Posted by jlbl2l on March 1, 2004, at 9:56:02
In reply to Re: Benzo Taper Questions, posted by Mr. Scott on March 1, 2004, at 9:22:46
i'm telling you your all going to be happy when pregabalin comes out later this year, early next year. it was found more effective for GAD (very similar to SAD than Ativan. Ativan is a very strong benzo.
Posted by Sad Panda on March 1, 2004, at 10:23:24
In reply to Re: Benzo Taper Questions (pregabalin), posted by jlbl2l on March 1, 2004, at 9:56:02
> i'm telling you your all going to be happy when pregabalin comes out later this year, early next year. it was found more effective for GAD (very similar to SAD than Ativan. Ativan is a very strong benzo.
>
>I am sorry you find my opinion insulting but for every drug you can find a website dedicated to being anti-that drug. I am sorry you have seizures now after klonopin withdrawl but you are in the minority. A simple fact to remember about drugs is that none are 100% safe. I can't believe that that pregabalin is going to be good & make people happy when it doesn't have decades of testing behind it unlike Benzos.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by HIBA on March 1, 2004, at 22:58:20
In reply to Benzo Taper Questions, posted by Mr. Scott on February 29, 2004, at 22:11:23
0.5mg? And still you say it should be tapered? Come on guys. .5mg is the lowest available form of klonopin and I don't think one is going to be hospitalized if he is going off cold turkey. (Going off effexor or paxil cold turkey can definitely hospitalize you)
I used klonopin for a couple of years and my starting dose was 2 mg. After six months I came down to 1.5 and later 1mg. When I found a benzophobic psychiatrist, I had to quit it and I did it. I didn't follow any chart or expert advise. I just listened to my body. It told me there is nothing wrong in weaning off this substance and I didn't experience any withdrawal symptom. There was a slight dysphoric feeling but it soon passed. The stories of benzo.org are mostly inane and I don't think they have helped anyone come off benzos rather than complicating the issue. Anticipatory anxiety of a withdrawal symptom can itself make withdrawal symptoms worse. Don't let yourself trapped in any anti-benzo WEB. Listen to your body and do the needful. If you occassionally need a little bit of klonopin don't hesitate to medicate. 0.5mg is not going to imprison you for life. Never.
HIBA
Posted by cubbybear on March 2, 2004, at 0:23:48
In reply to Re: Benzo Taper Questions » Mr. Scott, posted by HIBA on March 1, 2004, at 22:58:20
>
> 0.5mg? And still you say it should be tapered? Come on guys. .5mg is the lowest available form of klonopinIf it needn't ever be tapered, then why is the .5 pill manufactured with a double scoring mark to facilitate a double cut to .125 mg? This is not for the purpose of making a nice-looking design on it. A number of people have had bigger problems coming off the tail end of their taper. If you read this board regularly, you'll learn that no two people are alike with their reactions/side effects/withdrawal from any drug.
> I used klonopin for a couple of years and my starting dose was 2 mg. After six months I came down to 1.5 and later 1mg. When I found a benzophobic psychiatrist, I had to quit it and I did it. I didn't follow any chart or expert advise. I just listened to my body. It told me there is nothing wrong in weaning off this substance and I didn't experience any withdrawal symptom.
More power to you, HIBA, you can consider yourself lucky. . .but as I've said, not everyone is built the same way. I for one have experienced guaranteed insomnia for 2 nights, every time I've reduced my dose by a mere .125 mg.
I don't agree with the general rationale and premises of www.benzo. org but I'd be foolish to reject helpful, practical info they've got (e.g. switching to Valium) regarding the taper. It's good to keep an open mind about others' special needs.
cubbybear
Posted by HIBA on March 2, 2004, at 22:39:21
In reply to Re: Benzo Taper Questions » HIBA, posted by cubbybear on March 2, 2004, at 0:23:48
Yes, withdrawal can be severe and debilitating to some and even 0.5mg of klonopin will be a lot for sensitive guys. I am not here to argue, but since we have a wonderful forum here to discuss our experiences with medicines, I don't think we will have to rely on a bunch of benzophobics who never might have helped anyone. Have you ever tried to check how many recognized experts are there on that board? Their valium substitution hypothesis is the contribution of Dr. Ashton who herself is a real benzophobic like my current psycdoc. (One word this valium thing shouldn't necessarily work for everyone and it is not at all a universally accepted method to taper xanax. From anecdotes and published studies, I do believe klonopin is much better to substitute xanax and it much easier than valium to withdraw. According to American Psychiatric Association Valim, Xanax and Ativan are the most reinforcing agents among benzos and subsequently have the most abuse potential.
I am not trying to play politics here. But relying on benzo.org will do more harm than good. We have psychobabble to support ourselves.
HIBA
Posted by cubbybear on March 3, 2004, at 3:23:39
In reply to Re: Benzo Taper Questions » HIBA » cubbybear, posted by HIBA on March 2, 2004, at 22:39:21
(One word this valium thing shouldn't necessarily work for everyone and it is not at all a universally accepted method to taper xanax. From anecdotes and published studies, I do believe klonopin is much better to substitute xanax and it much easier than valium to withdraw.
In my case, it's not Xanax that I've been tapering off of, but Klonopin, and regardless of what prejudiced views www.benzo.org has got, it makes sense to me that if someone has been having some difficulty weaning off Klonopin, going to a benzo with a much longer half-life, like Valium, might just make things a lot easier. As I've said before, no two people are alike, and some people will no doubt have it rougher getting off Valium than others will, getting off Klonopin. For me personally, I've been doing fine since I switched from Klonopin to Valium for the tail end of the taper, and expect to take the last tidbit this Friday. By the end of a couple of weeks, I'll have something more definitive to say about it.
Yes--I agree, it's better for us to share ideas using this board rather than rely on prejudiced "experts" on either side of the discussion. But, at the same time, my experiences may be a whole lot different than everyone else's.
Posted by judy1 on March 3, 2004, at 10:13:41
In reply to Re: Benzo Taper Questions, posted by Mr. Scott on March 1, 2004, at 9:22:46
klonopin can be a depressing benzo (much more than xanax). i have tapered off 6mg/day in the past- going at about 10%/ week- or less once i felt i could move on. some insomnia, nothing much more than that. you are on a fairly low dose and i suspect won't have much difficulty. at that dose i would space out your second dose (remember the half-life is what 36 hours?) and eventually drop it. at one point i took 2mg/day and got off in a week because i was pregnant- insomnia, panic attacks, etc. but i didn't die or have seizures- just went 2mg day 1, 1.75 mg day 2 , etc. since you don't have a timetable, then i would try my first suggestion. best of luck- judy
Posted by snarley on March 3, 2004, at 16:23:39
In reply to Re: Benzo Taper Questions, posted by Mr. Scott on March 1, 2004, at 9:22:46
Scott--
I'm one of those folks you mentioned who went through "paralyzing rebound and withdrawal" from benzos from doing it the WRONG way. I was on massive amounts of Ativan (that my idiot pdoc at the time was actually prescribing to me, i wasnt "abusing" it on my own, he was "abusing" me by prescribing me large doses i was supposed to take several times a day--i was dependent, bigtime). But i wont go into all the hell i went through getting off the ativan (and klonopin, which the guy prescribed to me at the same time).
What i do want to say is that tapering is a GOOD thing, go as slow as possible to minimize effects, as they can be really terrible. Realize that using benzos over a long period of time has probably reduced your ability to cope with your anxiety naturally, as it was just covering up symptoms. In fact, you might find your anxiety problems are worse once you get off than they were when you started the benzos. If there's one thing you should really try to work on as you taper off, it's dealing with your anxiety symptoms behaviorally. Consider getting a therapist who can give you weekly attention as issues come up, and give you tips and tricks to manage your anxiety yourself.
Confronting things that freaked me out in a slow, structured manner over time gave me ways to cope with the things that bothered me, and after several years of therapy and hard work after getting off of the benzos I have virtually zero anxiety symptoms. I'm on a bit of effexor now, and that seems to help as well. But i think that restructuring the way i "think" about certain things is what helped me most. IMHO benzos are just a "quick fix".
Snar
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 4, 2004, at 16:37:31
In reply to Re: Benzo Taper Questions, posted by jlbl2l on March 1, 2004, at 7:20:45
> http://www.benzo.org.uk are a bunch of benzophobes
>
> Sad Panda> I consider the www.benzo.org people to be benzophobic
>
> prejudiced views
> prejudiced "experts"
>
> cubbybear> The stories of benzo.org are mostly inane
>
> a bunch of benzophobics
> relying on benzo.org will do more harm than good.
>
> HIBAI'd like to start asking people here not to post anything that could lead those who agree with views expressed at benzo.org.uk to feel accused or put down. "www.benzo.org people" may be here, too.
> some how your comment I found insulting.
>
> rainee> i also found that comment very insulting.
>
> jlbl2lAnd of course not to post anything that could lead those who post here to feel accused or put down.
If you have any questions about this or comments about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways to express yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by cubbybear on March 5, 2004, at 2:37:55
In reply to Re: please be civil » rainee » jlbl2l, posted by Dr. Bob on March 4, 2004, at 16:37:31
That was a masterful stroke. Dr. Bob got *three* of us at the same time.
Posted by Sad Panda on March 5, 2004, at 3:11:14
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by cubbybear on March 5, 2004, at 2:37:55
> That was a masterful stroke. Dr. Bob got *three* of us at the same time.
>
>
>I count five. There are only three kinds of people in this world, those that can count & those that can't! :)
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by cubbybear on March 5, 2004, at 3:24:36
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob » cubbybear, posted by Sad Panda on March 5, 2004, at 3:11:14
> > That was a masterful stroke. Dr. Bob got *three* of us at the same time.
> >> >>
>
> I count five. There are only three kinds of people in this world, those that can count & those that can't! :)
>
> Cheers,
> Panda.You're right. .. .after I posted, I saw that Dr. Bob had indeed nailed 5 people in one shot.
So, since I seem to have developed a counting deficiency, I'd better be *real* careful when taking my pills.
>
>
>
Posted by micro on March 7, 2004, at 18:16:02
In reply to Re: Benzo Taper Questions, posted by Mr. Scott on March 1, 2004, at 9:22:46
> I did not mean to cause controversey here. I'm not a politician.
>
> Benzo's are often necessary, and if there was something better for agitation, mixed states, or anxiety in every case, then we'd all be on that something.
>
> But the truth of the matter is for me anyways...is that after many many years of benzo use, they probably make me more depressed and anxious than I would normally be today. However at one point I surely would have killed myself without them. The problem lies with available science and not with us individually, and for some long-time benzo users no problem exists at all.
>
> Similarly...At this point SSRI's do more damage than good for me too after 12 years of taking them. Doesn't mean they aren't life savers for the majority.
>
> All I want to know is how to get off of benzo's without paralyzing rebound and withdrawal and how others have managed. I'm not taking much so it shouldn't be too bad...I hope.
>
> ScottScott, Go incrementally slowly and make sure that you are supervised, your family is aware of your descision [you are preparing to do this] or your significant others. Consider using an exacto knife or pill cutter to make infinitely small changes in your dosage and stay at a level you can tolerate regardless of how small 2-4 weeks if necessary to allow your system to adjust. You will become very good at it once you start. If you begin mid-to early in the week you will have time over the weekend to adjust any symtoms. Just keep it very slow and soon you will realize an increasing ability to to think and you energy levels will increase. Please do not do this alone. Good Luck ! regards Micro
Do not do this with out your docs consent!
Posted by gabbix2 on March 7, 2004, at 18:44:07
In reply to Re: Benzo Taper Questions, posted by micro on March 7, 2004, at 18:16:02
Going off Klonopin was pretty easy for me, and I was terrified, cause I'd had a hellish time with ativan withdrawal. My biggest problem was insomnia which lasted for a few weeks.
Using a nailfile to cut down on the dosage helps, it sounds crazy but if you're med sensitive it helps to get get the doses really small. I didn't need it with klonopin though.
This is the end of the thread.
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