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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by brender on January 19, 2004, at 19:40:15
Hi,
Help! Does anyone have experience with petite mal seizures, or know what the following could be?I'm bipolar with ADD. I take lithium, neurontin, adderall. My doctor just upped my adderall (but spread it out over the day) and added wellbutrin XL 300mg. I was doing OK for the first few days--some hours of clarity but some crashes and fogginess. But then last night, I was writing, and my brain just slowed down dramatically. I couldn't really understand what I'd just written, because I couldn't remember from one word to the next. It just kept getting slower and foggier. This is all similar to what happens when I get too much dopamine (I have that paradoxical ADD thing), like when I accidentally take my meds twice. But this was extreme. And my brain started feeling stuffy(?) and I felt really stoned. And then I started having the sensation that my brain was just stopping altogether, like the thoughts were on a conveyor belt going by very slowly and then it froze...and I was in suspended animation for a while...and then it spluttered back to life, but I'd lost my train of thought. Like "Where is that other............shoe. Huh? What about a shoe? Oh yeah..."
It was happening every few minutes. It's starting to happen tonight again. Could someone help me figure this out? I called my doctor, but he never calls back.
Could this be a seizure, a side effect, or a sign of dopamine toxicity?
Posted by HappyGirl on January 19, 2004, at 20:59:50
In reply to Are these seizures? (Wellbutrin), posted by brender on January 19, 2004, at 19:40:15
Hi:
First of all, your system has a lot of 'stimulant' effect, because both Adderall and Wellbutrin are 'stimulant' effect, especally 'Adderall,' as seeing you have Bp. Besides this, WB XL 300 mg. as a starting dosage is, in my opinion, quite 'HIGH DOSAGE.' Normally, as for the add or AD, 150 mg. WB must be OK,... and after seeing some improvement, then gradually increase/move up to the level, in your case, ... 300 mg. that is supposed to take between 6 and 8 weeks' period.
In regard to 'Seizure,' I frankly can not answer for this, ... but with plenty of stimulant in your brain, it could be. In Bipolar, ADD is a part of Bipolar that I too have,... for this, in my case, WB SR 200 mg. along with other meds. has been helping, not perfect range, but around in so-so-level for me to comprehend the world around me.
H.G.
Posted by brender on January 19, 2004, at 21:16:02
In reply to Re: Are these seizures? (Wellbutrin), posted by HappyGirl on January 19, 2004, at 20:59:50
> First of all, your system has a lot
>of 'stimulant' effect, because both Adderall and >Wellbutrin are 'stimulant' effect,
>Besides this, WB XL 300 mg. as a starting dosage
>is, in my opinion, quite 'HIGH DOSAGE.'I agree. I don't know what it is with my pdoc--maybe he's just impatient or something--but he always seems to start high and then move low. And I just can't take too much dopamine. I know that from experience; it knocks me out. However, this thing with my brain freezing up is new, and I know seizures are a poss side effect of wellbutrin.
Today I took just the wellbutrin and skipped the adderall and it happened again, though not for as long and not as bad. I think it has stopped now. I called one of my friends while it was happening and he called back all panicked and said my message sounded "really weird." My dog was also acting weird and anxious and pacing, but he does that sometimes for other reasons.
> for this, in my case, WB SR 200 mg. along with
>other meds. has been helping, not perfect range,
>but around in so-so-level for me to comprehend
>the world around me.
> H.G.I really want wellbutrin to work. It was nice those first days to be able to function, although I felt pretty detached from my emotions. Thanks for the feedback.
Posted by Sebastian on January 19, 2004, at 22:23:26
In reply to Are these seizures? (Wellbutrin), posted by brender on January 19, 2004, at 19:40:15
Effects of the medicine. I get that all the time from wellbutrin SR. Usualy when the medicine is reaching peak concentrations. You didn't wake up on the floor in a mess did you? You were still conconsious? That sensation will get easyer in time. It just one of those thing I sort of notice now and know the medicine is in full force for the moment. Usualy at the same time after taking the pill. Just be carfull you are aware when it happens or happening and know you can get dizzy and you can get slightly faint if you stand up too fast. I almost thought I would at first but never happened. Just sort of grasp you footing slow down.
Posted by HappyGirl on January 19, 2004, at 22:31:09
In reply to Re: Are these seizures? (Wellbutrin), posted by brender on January 19, 2004, at 21:16:02
Hi:
Even you skipped other med., Adderall, ... WB effect is still in your system, at least a few more days. Then, your quote, 'freezing-up' is NOT surprising me!
In my personal experience along with reading the others, most of pdocs. seem to get the med. dosage at higher than your system needs, ... probably, because not making their patients disappoint on meds. they rx. Hence, the knowledge along with education through here, Forum or any other informative sites are VERY important for us to understand how/what the med. working effectively. In other words, you may need to become 'your own advocate/pdoc.' for your condition. No-body else more than "YOU" understand what/how effective all of those med. has been doing/helping the chemical of your brain, ... this is through my 'hard-earned' experience in regard to med. regimen.
H.G.
Posted by brender on January 19, 2004, at 23:38:20
In reply to Re: Are these seizures? (Wellbutrin), posted by Sebastian on January 19, 2004, at 22:23:26
It felt like I was losing consciousness--all thought stopped and I wasn't aware of anything--or rather I kept feeling myself regain awareness and wondering what happened. Does this happen to you? The rest of the feelings were a lot like too much dopamine, but that was new. It was happening every few minutes or less. Now it's less often, I think.
I ended up paging my pdoc. He thought they were seizures but said if I could still talk I'd be all right and I should just drink a lot of gatorade and eat cheese and take some valium, because of something about sodium. I didn't get it all--something about soup, but not to take any more, obviously. My friend came over and I just choked in the middle of a sentence and couldn't continue and then later burst into tears for no reason. He seemed kind of worried. But I feel better knowing I don't have to go to the hospital.
Posted by HappyGirl on January 20, 2004, at 12:24:48
In reply to Re: Are these seizures? (Wellbutrin), posted by brender on January 19, 2004, at 23:38:20
Hi:
In my case, when I was on 300 mg. Wellbutrin SR, only bad/side-effect was 'dizziness' that occurred in the half-way on the road, then it made me 'REALLY' scared. Afterwards, I NEVER took that dosage, 300 mg. WB. To be honest and frank, however the 300 mg. WB gave me almost 'Normal' state with a lot of energy and motivation along with 'good concentration.' Hence, I truly miss that amount of dosage, however on the otherhand, I can NOT take any risk, such as reckless driving due to 'dizzy spell' experiencing on 300 mg. WB. That's my conclusion on WB and for this, I am quite happy!In your case, there is some more 'serious' going on as reading your description on WB. In my suggestion, try to lower down to 100 mg.-150 mg. that may NOT get tremendous 'bad-reaction' from WB. Besides this, if you're 'seizure tendency'(or someone in your family has, ...), then you might get seizure symptoms. I agree with your pdoc., however eating 'sodium-rich' foods,.... is it REALLY helping on your newly developing symptoms?
I take Lithium 900 mg., then in my system, there is a pleny of 'sodium,' that in turn might counteract WB's bad/side effect? I have no clue on this, ... but the best place for you to find a good solution on this is to go to your pdoc. and talk with him/her face to face, I believe. Just phone-conversation seems NOT enough to find appropriate answer to your worry/concern.
H.G.
Posted by brender on January 20, 2004, at 13:52:37
In reply to Re: Are these seizures? (Wellbutrin), posted by HappyGirl on January 20, 2004, at 12:24:48
Thank you,
>I agree with your pdoc., however eating 'sodium->rich' foods,.... is it REALLY helping on your >newly developing symptoms?
Well, I don't think he was suggesting I eat them in general, just to make the seizures stop right then. He said they were often exacerbated by dehydration (although I didn't think I was dehydrated) and so he said to drink water with alka seltzer or gatorade or something that would rehydrate me and to take valium or ativan. I think the sodium was just to make me hydrate faster, like how all those sports drinks have sodium in them. I also take lithium, but not much. I think the seizure side effect is rare, but more likely at higher doses.
>but the best place for you to find a good
>solution on this is to go to your pdoc. and talk
>with him/her face to face, I believe. Just phone-
>conversation seems NOT enough to find
>appropriate answer to your worry/concern.I agree. I just don't know when I can get in to see him again, though. I have an appointment in a few weeks. What I want to know now, though, is can I continue to take adderall, or should I lay off all dopamine agonists for a while? Is it the dopamine that causes the seizures?
Posted by HappyGirl on January 20, 2004, at 18:08:10
In reply to Re: Are these seizures? (Wellbutrin) » HappyGirl, posted by brender on January 20, 2004, at 13:52:37
Hi:
In answer to your question, the following;
>>> Is it the dopamine that causes the seizures? <<<
Seriously, I have no idea, except this is 'generic/family related.' However, there is a 'risk' at "higher-dosage" WB, from the reading/hearing. Then, if there is some suspicion on this, 'seizure,' the proc. normally does NOT rx in the first place.
Also, in regard to Adderall, I have no knowledge because I have never been on it. But, this med. like 'Ritalin' has a good portion of 'stimulant' then my pdoc. never got me on, even I complained about my concentration issue related to the Bp.
In my suggestion, if there is NO appt. with your pdoc. in the near future, then probably the safe thing is to take a VERY dosage of both med. whether they are REALLY helping your problem. Otherwise, if I were you, I just wait until I'm able to see the pdoc. Because, any med. has some adverse effect if it does not go with the chemical of your brain.
H.G.
Posted by Viridis on January 21, 2004, at 4:19:52
In reply to Are these seizures? (Wellbutrin), posted by brender on January 19, 2004, at 19:40:15
I had a somewhat similar experience with Wellbutrin SR at 150 mg -- weird head pressure feeling, combined with severe anxiety, shaking, intense dizziness, disorientation, and other strange effects like light sensitivity etc. These episodes could come on very suddenly and were quite frightening. The GP who prescribed it said I was "imagining" this, but when I stopped it after two months (the side effects still hadn't gone away) the problems immediately disappeared.
The pdoc I saw after that said that these side effects aren't all that uncommon, and wasn't surprised since some other patients of his had reported similar experiences.
While I was taking WB I wasn't on any other meds, although later I tried a lower dose while on Klonopin. The side effects were similar but only about half as bad.
Now I take Adderall (with Klonopin) and that's fine. I actually find Adderall quite relaxing.
Coincidentally, a friend of mine started WB around the same time I did, and had such a severe panic reaction after her first dose that she thought she was having a heart attack. Luckily, her husband is a doctor and was able to get things under control (with some difficulty).
WB is great for some people, but it can be powerful stuff and not everyone reacts well. The ignorant GP who prescribed it for me had wanted me to start with 450 mg -- luckily I knew enough to limit it to 150 mg, and even that was intolerable for me both short- and long-term.
Posted by laurenn on January 22, 2004, at 0:45:33
In reply to Are these seizures? (Wellbutrin), posted by brender on January 19, 2004, at 19:40:15
over two years after paxil usage, i still have problems with my brain "freezing up" Or " locking up" as i call it. Dr's have said it sounds alot like neuronal misfiring. I have also lost most of my peripheral vision as a direct reaction to ssri's. These meds are dangerous for some people. your body and brain will give you clues if something doesn't seem right or feel right. Don't let the dr. put you off. Listen to your gut. I let a dr. keep me on meds and I ignored my own gut, and now i have permanennt neurological damage. Hindsight is always the best teacher . You know your body best. I hope your Dr. calls you back. Mine was terrified when he finally figured out what happened to me. A good friend of me and my fiance had taken wellbutrin for like 2 weeks and had a big seizure in front of his wife and kids. Sad, really. And a girlfriend of mine was a dancer at the time she was placed on celexa by her Dr. just because she was" turning 30 ". Yes, it's TRUE. Ridiculous as it seems. Well, anyway she was on stage and she said it felt like her brain was locking up. but it seemed like the eyes and brain weren't communicating properly when she turned her head on stage to look right or left. And another friend was on effexor and said he had to go off cause something did not feel quite right. I
t felt like he was losing his vision on med. As soon as he quit that feeling went away. These dr's have no clue what to do when their patients report bad effects from antidepressants because pharmaceutical reps do not inform them of these problems. it's very intersesting that thousands of people are reporting similar problems of Brain freezing, or or zaps. Just food for thought. Hope you do better off med . It might be worth the money to schedule an appointment with a good psychopharmacologist.
Posted by brender on January 22, 2004, at 10:34:42
In reply to Re: Are these seizures? (Wellbutrin), posted by laurenn on January 22, 2004, at 0:45:33
Thanks so much for your feedback. It's pretty scary to have strange things happening in your brain, isn't it?
>>I have also lost most of my peripheral vision
>>as a direct reaction to ssri's. These meds are
>>dangerous for some people.That's terrible about your peripheral vision. How long ago was it that you quit paxil? Maybe it will come back over time. I had vision problems from tegretol that didn't fully resolve until I'd been off of it for months. I can't take ssri's (or at least I'm unwilling to) because of the risk of mania, but wellbutrin is not an ssri; it's in its own class of antidepressants (works on dopamine more than seratonin, from what I understand).
>>I hope your Dr. calls you back. Mine was
>>terrified when he finally figured out what
>>happened to me.He did phone me back after I paged his answering service. He seemed to go with my assessment that they were seizures without asking too many quesitons. He told me to stop taking the wellbutrin, and I guess we're going to try strattera next. I wish I knew if they were really seizures because I'd be willing to try wellbutrin at a lower dose if it was just a normal side effect that might go away over time, but seizures are dangerous, I imagine.
>> it's very intersesting that thousands of
>>people are reporting similar problems of Brain
>>freezing, or or zaps. Just food for thought.I think "brain zaps" is the phrase they use to describe one of the side effects of abruptly stopping effexor or paxil or one of the short-half-life ssris. I don't think this is what I was experiencing. I didn't have any kind of electric or shocking sensation, or any sudden sensation at all. It was more like repeated feelings of "coming-to", out of a zoned out state, and continuing the interrupted thought I was having before, but getting more disoriented and disjointed as it wore on.
>>Hope you do better off med . It might be worth
>>the money to schedule an appointment with a
>>good psychopharmacologist.Thanks. I'm still on other meds because I'm bipolar and if I went off of all of them, I'd be in even worse shape, but the symptoms I described went away after I stopped taking wellbutrin. I still have a headache 2 days later, though, which can't be a good sign. My doctor is a psychopharmacologist, and I believe he is very knowledgeable, but he's also very busy and rarely returns phone calls.
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