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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 1980Monroe on December 21, 2003, at 10:31:32
Does it give you a intense feeling of peace, like barbituates, euphoria? If most benzo's do the same thing, then why arnt they addicting like xanax. Just like some experinces from exprienced users. Thanks
Posted by BackOfClass on December 21, 2003, at 12:07:21
In reply to why is xanax addicting, posted by 1980Monroe on December 21, 2003, at 10:31:32
But is a reason some may wish not to withdrawal. Benzo’s are physiologically addicting, not psychologically, so the calming effect is not the reason people have difficulty withdrawing.
Posted by KellyD on December 21, 2003, at 17:22:38
In reply to why is xanax addicting, posted by 1980Monroe on December 21, 2003, at 10:31:32
Xanax has a short half life, which means it doesn't "work" or remain in your system as long as some benzo's. The theory is frequent dosing may contribute to tolerance developing more quickly. I DO NOT necessarily believe this.
Benzo's used approiately, as drugs that treat the symptoms of a disorder, can be used for years without increase dosing or pitfalls that are so widely believed by some.
The dose of my benzo has DECREASED over a two year use for me.
Admittedly, I cannot speak about Xanax specifically, but I can speak about benzo's as a class of drugs as one who has had great success.
Posted by Viridis on December 21, 2003, at 18:08:43
In reply to why is xanax addicting, posted by 1980Monroe on December 21, 2003, at 10:31:32
Xanax is a great drug, but it does seem to have more potential for abuse than the other benzos. This is a very individual thing, just something to watch out for if you find yourself "enjoying" it. For me, it doesn't cause euphoria, but I developed tolerance quite suddenly, so I limit its use.
Klonopin is a pretty safe bet for anxiety relief with a low chance of tolerance, and minimal risk of "true" addiction. It's also much easier to get a prescription for than Xanax. I take Klonopin daily for anxiety and haven't had to increase the dose in over 2 1/2 years. I reserve Xanax for really high-anxiety episodes -- I never had a problem with it, but the rapid development of tolerance makes me cautious.
Posted by Kon on December 22, 2003, at 12:12:57
In reply to Re: why is xanax addicting » 1980Monroe, posted by Viridis on December 21, 2003, at 18:08:43
>I reserve Xanax for really high-anxiety episodes -- I never had a problem with it, but the rapid development of tolerance makes me cautious.
Viridis,
Just curious. Why didn't you just increase the Klonopin dosage when facing really high-anxiety situations instead of supplementing with Xanax. Is there any advantage of doing this way instead of just upping the klonopin dosage? Thanks.
Posted by scott-d-o on December 22, 2003, at 14:36:33
In reply to why is xanax addicting, posted by 1980Monroe on December 21, 2003, at 10:31:32
Xanax nor any benzo is addictive. There are people out there that are stupid enough to abuse even OTC medications; this doesn't imply that they are addictive. Tolerance and/or dependency may develop; do a search if you are confused with the definition of these words. Every 'addictive' drug raises dopamine levels in the nucleus accumbens resulting in some measure of euphoria. Everything from cigarettes to heroin and cocaine does this, and the degree to which they raise these levels is a measure of how addictive they are. Benzodiazepines potentiate the transmission of GABA which inhibits presynaptic release of all the monoamines. Therefore, benzodiazepines may actually even decrease dopamine via attenuation of dopamine release via the increase in GABA levels. This is why many will tell you that benzos make them depressed and less motivated if used in excess.
Posted by stjames on December 22, 2003, at 15:16:09
In reply to Umm, it's not addictive., posted by scott-d-o on December 22, 2003, at 14:36:33
> Xanax nor any benzo is addictive.
Ha ! Wrong. Totally.
Posted by scott-d-o on December 22, 2003, at 16:03:31
In reply to Re: Umm, it's not addictive., posted by stjames on December 22, 2003, at 15:16:09
> > Xanax nor any benzo is addictive.
>
> Ha ! Wrong. Totally.Okay, care to prove me wrong? If you have ever been addicted to cocaine or even cigarettes I'm sure you would know the difference between dependency and *craving* a drug like cocaine with every cell in your body. Everytime you experience any sensory perception (taste, smell, etc.) that reminds you of the experience of using, you get a little taste of what it was like to be high, like a wave of euphoria that travels all the way to your toes. It is this positive reinforcement that makes drugs addictive.
Take a benzo for a substantial amount of time and then taper off *too quickly* and your pre-existing anxiety, which has been suppressed for so long, comes back with a vengeance. Is this addiction? No. Does this occur with about every psychiatric drug that is *effective*, including SSRI's? Yes. However, more people may become *dependent* on benzo's because they actually *work* more often than SSRI's.
I'd appreciate you not making false claims unless you have the facts to back them up, however, I already know you cannot provide any justification for your remark.
Posted by stjames on December 22, 2003, at 16:14:46
In reply to Re: Umm, it's not addictive., posted by scott-d-o on December 22, 2003, at 16:03:31
> > > Xanax nor any benzo is addictive.
> >
> > Ha ! Wrong. Totally.
>
> Okay, care to prove me wrong? If you have ever been addicted to cocaine or even cigarettes I'm sure you would know the difference between dependency and *craving* a drug like cocaine with every cell in your body.You know nothing that is know, nor my experiences so do not comment on what you assume are my experiences.
Been there, done it, on meth, freebase, benzos, opioids, mdma, mda.
Posted by jms600 on December 22, 2003, at 16:22:54
In reply to why is xanax addicting, posted by 1980Monroe on December 21, 2003, at 10:31:32
Hi,
I think Scott-d-o hit the mark by stating that benzodiazepines are not psychologically adicitive. You don't crave the drug, but your body does become physically dependent on the drug.
If someone does become dependent on bezos, they continue to take the drug to avoid the withdrawal effects they would experience if they were to stop the drug suddenly. They don't take the drug because they crave and desire it.
Fortunately, I have never experienced dependence on benzos, but I have grown tolerant to them. Although Valium is a very effective drug for anxiety, I now have to take around 30mg before it has any effect on my anxiety. Quite an uncomfortable thought when I consider that I only take perhaps one or two doses, on average, a month.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 22, 2003, at 16:55:43
In reply to Umm, it's not addictive., posted by scott-d-o on December 22, 2003, at 14:36:33
> There are people out there that are stupid enough to abuse even OTC medications
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel put down, thanks.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by theo on December 22, 2003, at 18:33:06
In reply to Umm, it's not addictive., posted by scott-d-o on December 22, 2003, at 14:36:33
Then how do you explain people having seizures when stopping Xanax???
Posted by stjames on December 22, 2003, at 18:55:27
In reply to Re: Umm, it's not addictive., posted by scott-d-o on December 22, 2003, at 16:03:31
You know, WHO CARES ! I take the meds I need,
I could CARE LESS if they are "addictive".
After 20 years, all this hand wringing over inflamitory words like "addictive" is pointless.
Posted by scott-d-o on December 22, 2003, at 19:29:24
In reply to Re: Umm, it's not addictive., posted by stjames on December 22, 2003, at 16:14:46
> > Okay, care to prove me wrong? If you have ever been addicted to cocaine or even cigarettes I'm sure you would know the difference between dependency and *craving* a drug like cocaine with every cell in your body.
>
> You know nothing that is know, nor my experiences so do not comment on what you assume are my experiences.
> Been there, done it, on meth, freebase, benzos, opioids, mdma, mda.Could someone please help me decipher this post? I know nothing "that is know"?
Posted by scott-d-o on December 22, 2003, at 19:38:03
In reply to Then explain WD seizures » scott-d-o, posted by theo on December 22, 2003, at 18:33:06
> Then how do you explain people having seizures when stopping Xanax???
These seizures you refer to are caused by a physical *dependency*, not an *addiction*. I should add that these withdrawal symptoms are only experienced when the drug is not tapered off properly. Withdrawal symptoms resulting from abrupt discontinuation occur with almost all other psychiatric drugs as well (many even become suicidal during withdrawal from SSRI's.)
Posted by scott-d-o on December 22, 2003, at 19:39:22
In reply to Re: please be civil » scott-d-o, posted by Dr. Bob on December 22, 2003, at 16:55:43
> > There are people out there that are stupid enough to abuse even OTC medications
>
> Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel put down, thanks.
>
> Bob
>
> PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.My apologies.
Posted by KarmaFairy on December 23, 2003, at 8:19:23
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by scott-d-o on December 22, 2003, at 19:39:22
As far as I'm concerned, any drug that one craves when he or she is without it and causes physical withdrawal upon discontinuing is addictive.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 23, 2003, at 9:04:15
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by scott-d-o on December 22, 2003, at 19:39:22
Posted by Viridis on December 24, 2003, at 1:11:47
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by KarmaFairy on December 23, 2003, at 8:19:23
Do you mean "craves" due to pleasurable effects, or simply because of the discomfort caused by sudden discontinuation?
If the latter ("craving" due to physical withdrawal resulting from medical dependency), then the definition of "addictive" drugs would have to be extended to include most antidepressants, insulin, various blood pressure meds, antacids, laxatives, and so on, all of which can cause withdrawal problems (some quite severe) for those who use them on a regular basis and then stop suddenly.
Posted by Viridis on December 24, 2003, at 1:53:27
In reply to Re: why is xanax addicting (Viridis), posted by Kon on December 22, 2003, at 12:12:57
I have occasionally taken an extra dose of Klonopin, and this works pretty well. However, since I generally do well at the same, fairly low dose of Klonopin, I'd rather take another med (Xanax) when I really need it and keep the level of Klonopin the same. Besides, I'd have to change the prescription, since I just get enough Klonopin for one dose/day. I'm sure that I could do this, but it might be more complicated ("take 1 mg/day except if you need more", etc.) than just having a second, small prescription for Xanax, PRN.
Also -- Xanax has a rapid onset of action and just "feels" different to me. Klonopin doesn't really feel like anything; it simply reduces anxiety. Xanax noticeably reduces anxiety very fast. I don't get a high from it, but I can actually feel the effects, and my tension dissipating. This is reassuring, and I like to have Xanax available for those occasions when I really need it.
Those episodes are sporadic, and I generally keep the use of Xanax to once every week or two, at most. I wouldn't want to use it any more often, because even at this level of use it requires a substantially greater dose to achieve the same effect than it did initially. This seems to have stabilized (at a dose that's still low by many people's standards), and given my infrequency of use it wouldn't be a problem for me to stop Xanax if my tolerance were to increase further.
It just seems to work best for me to have two distinctly different meds for anxiety, one for regular use and one for special cases.
Posted by zeugma on December 24, 2003, at 17:13:01
In reply to Umm, it's not addictive., posted by scott-d-o on December 22, 2003, at 14:36:33
Every 'addictive' drug raises dopamine levels in the nucleus accumbens resulting in some measure of euphoria. Everything from cigarettes to heroin and cocaine does this, and the degree to which they raise these levels is a measure of how addictive they are. Benzodiazepines potentiate the transmission of GABA which inhibits presynaptic release of all the monoamines. Therefore, benzodiazepines may actually even decrease dopamine via attenuation of dopamine release via the increase in GABA levels. This is why many will tell you that benzos make them depressed and less motivated if used in excess.
I wonder if this is the reason why i am feeling more depressed after a month and a half on clonazepam. I think I'm very sensitive to the inhibition of monoamines, because I have a narcolepsy-like sleep disorder (lots of sleep paralysis, hypnagogic hallucinations, etc.) and these symptoms are reduced by AD's which boost monoamine availability (especially norepinephrine). One of the first things I noticed on starting clonazepam was the return of these symptoms...
It seems that there are others who are not sensitive to benzo-induced depression. Maybe they don't have the same degree of noradrenergic dysregulation? My own suspicion is getting stronger that NE is at the root of my mood disorder, so I should avoid anything that decreases NE efficiency. it's unfortunate, since clonazepam IS an extremely effective med for social phobia and general anxiety.
This is the end of the thread.
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