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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Simcha on December 18, 2003, at 22:11:49
I had this sent to me by a friend. I am a Mental Health Counselor who works with severely emotionally disturbed children here in the USA and I believe that this is misguided at best. At worst these children will BECOME suicidal.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4815700-110418,00.html
Posted by KarmaFairy on December 18, 2003, at 22:38:23
In reply to UK Has Banned Medication for Depressed Children?, posted by Simcha on December 18, 2003, at 22:11:49
Prescription medication for depressed children is often hastily prescribed...most adults aren't fully aware of the dangers of these prescriptions, so I think it's fair to say that children and adolescents would have trouble making informed decisions. Perhaps this is for the best?
Posted by Simcha on December 18, 2003, at 22:51:15
In reply to Re: UK Has Banned Medication for Depressed Children?, posted by KarmaFairy on December 18, 2003, at 22:38:23
> Prescription medication for depressed children is often hastily prescribed...most adults aren't fully aware of the dangers of these prescriptions, so I think it's fair to say that children and adolescents would have trouble making informed decisions. Perhaps this is for the best?
Um, no...
I work with depressed children. One boy comes to mind. He was nine. Every morning he would arrive at school wailing and screaming, "I want to be dead! I should be dead!" After we could calm him down a bit (a process that would take hours) he would sleep. He was clearly depressed.
We gave him plenty of therapy and counseling. If you are in California, these are your tax dollars hard at work.
We begged his Mom to have him evaluated by the County Psychiatrist. She refused because she thought that all of the antidepressants were addictive and she is a recovering addict herself.
Eventually, after months of this awful suffering for the child, she agreed to have her child assessed by the psychiatrist. The child was put on antidpressants and this cycle of suicidality stopped. Since then he has exhibited no signs of depression. We are going on a year now...
Most of the time it is the parents, IMHO, who stand in the way of good mental health for their children. Yes, this is because they are not educated about mental health issues and medications especially.
Working in this field I cannot imagine taking our children off of medications. Suicide would go up by leaps and bounds, I assure you. I believe this would be malpractice.
I hope that the British Government knows what it's getting itself into here. They have 50,000 little lives in their hands. They still have these souls among them. My suspicion is that suicidality will increase when these children are weaned off of meds that work for them.
Simcha
Posted by stjames on December 18, 2003, at 23:23:15
In reply to Re: UK Has Banned Medication for Depressed Children?, posted by KarmaFairy on December 18, 2003, at 22:38:23
> Prescription medication for depressed children is often hastily prescribed...most adults aren't fully aware of the dangers of these prescriptions, so I think it's fair to say that children and adolescents would have trouble making informed decisions. Perhaps this is for the best?
Your kidding, I hope. Not for me, & I am glad I had informed parents as ritilan was major turning point for me as a child.
Posted by stjames on December 18, 2003, at 23:24:24
In reply to Re: UK Has Banned Medication for Depressed Children?, posted by KarmaFairy on December 18, 2003, at 22:38:23
I think it's fair to say that children and adolescents would have trouble making informed decisions.
When do children get to decide the meds they are on ? They have no legal standing.
Posted by KarmaFairy on December 18, 2003, at 23:26:34
In reply to Re: UK Has Banned Medication for Depressed Children? » KarmaFairy, posted by Simcha on December 18, 2003, at 22:51:15
You say that parents are not educated about mental health and medications, but perhaps if they were they would be even LESS likely to agree to such treatment. Some of these medications have side-effects that are worse than the ailments they treat. If weight gain, acne, and somnolence don't depress a child, I wonder what would? I am not saying that all medications should be banned, but perhaps it's time we acknowledge that there are often better ways. Not all heartburn is indicative of acid reflux disease. Likewise, a child's sadness is not necessarily a product of poor brain chemistry.
One can successfully treat high blood pressure with pills, but most often diet and exercise can prevent and reverse such a condition. The policy will be a huge loss to a few...but for the most part, they'll just look for the new magic pill.
Posted by Simcha on December 18, 2003, at 23:36:51
In reply to Re: UK Has Banned Medication for Depressed Children?, posted by KarmaFairy on December 18, 2003, at 23:26:34
Ok, I challenge you (a friendly challenge) to volunteer to work with depressed children. I would love for everyone who is anti-med for children to work for one day with me. It's an eye-opener.
It's very comfortable to sit in an ivory tower reading only one side of the medical studies. It's quite different out there in the real world working with real children.
I'm not playing the numbers game that these scientists and drug companies are playing. I work with real kids and real problems in the real world. In the real world some children really do inherit their parent's brain chemistry.
Personally, I wish that when I was a child someone would have found out that I was extremely depressed and would have given me something beyond just the lousy school counselling that was available to me. Of course, almost none of these treatments were available when I was a child. I was one of the lucky ones. I made it to adulthood. (I'm 34.)
Side-effects are part of any treatment. Talk therapy has side-effects, especially if it is bad talk therapy.
Most people and children do not have bad side-effects from these medications. This site is great yet it is a bit slanted. We tend to be the ones who have problems with medications. There are millions of others who don't come here because they have no problem with these medications.
I really believe that if parents were in touch with their own mental illnesses and knew more about mental illness, genetics, and inheritance then they might be quicker to get their children help. Like I said, meds alone don't do it. Good therapy and proper medication works. Trust me, I see it every day in the real world.
Simcha
> You say that parents are not educated about mental health and medications, but perhaps if they were they would be even LESS likely to agree to such treatment. Some of these medications have side-effects that are worse than the ailments they treat. If weight gain, acne, and somnolence don't depress a child, I wonder what would? I am not saying that all medications should be banned, but perhaps it's time we acknowledge that there are often better ways. Not all heartburn is indicative of acid reflux disease. Likewise, a child's sadness is not necessarily a product of poor brain chemistry.
>
> One can successfully treat high blood pressure with pills, but most often diet and exercise can prevent and reverse such a condition. The policy will be a huge loss to a few...but for the most part, they'll just look for the new magic pill.
Posted by KarmaFairy on December 18, 2003, at 23:56:50
In reply to Re: UK Has Banned Medication for Depressed Children? » KarmaFairy, posted by Simcha on December 18, 2003, at 23:36:51
An IVORY TOWER? I WAS one of those children...I attended a school for the SED (Severely Emotionally Disturbed) and saw first and second hand how people could be destroyed by medications. My sister suffered terrible acne and weight gain from Lithium, but worse yet, she has permanent liver damage...
There are SOME who will suffer greatly from the loss of their meds, but there are other (maybe even effective) treatments out there.
Posted by Simcha on December 19, 2003, at 0:13:12
In reply to Re: UK Has Banned Medication for Depressed Children?, posted by KarmaFairy on December 18, 2003, at 23:56:50
I did not mean to offend. I certainly did not want to be uncivil. (The Ivory Tower comment.) It's just that I have so many reasons for believing the way I believe.
When we were children... Of course, I'm assuming you are as old as me... Bad assumption, I know.. Sorry if it offends. I just have no clue what age anyone is on this board.. I'm 34...
Anyway, when I was a child we did not have much in the way of medication. The meds that we had were MUCH more dangerous than the current meds are. My brother did not do well on Ritalin...
These days he's on Celexa, Remeron, and Buspar. He manages pretty well now...
I'm on Celexa, WellbutrinXL, and Neurontin...
Not having meds as children did not prevent us from having to resort to psychopharmacology as adults.
Medication saved my brother from suicide. It's saved me from ruining my life too. Of course, now we are adults. I just wonder how different my childhood would have been if we would have had the current meds. I just wonder if it would have been as miserable of a childhood.
Simcha
> An IVORY TOWER? I WAS one of those children...I attended a school for the SED (Severely Emotionally Disturbed) and saw first and second hand how people could be destroyed by medications. My sister suffered terrible acne and weight gain from Lithium, but worse yet, she has permanent liver damage...
> There are SOME who will suffer greatly from the loss of their meds, but there are other (maybe even effective) treatments out there.
Posted by KarmaFairy on December 19, 2003, at 0:27:06
In reply to Re: UK Has Banned Medication for Depressed Children? » KarmaFairy, posted by Simcha on December 19, 2003, at 0:13:12
I also know of the successes associated with drugs, and do not mean to discount those. I am mostly upset with the fact that virtually anyone (regardless of one's mental health) can obtain AD's if they wish, but when one wants solid answers to questions about these medications, often times there has been too little research. This is not the right way to do it at all. I suppose I am more upset with the politics of the drugs at the moment, than the drugs themselves. If a person displays sufficient need for a drug that has been proven safe, they should be able to have it. But I fear that too few of those 50,000 children really needed the drugs in the first place.
Posted by Simcha on December 19, 2003, at 0:50:48
In reply to Re: UK Has Banned Medication for Depressed Children?, posted by KarmaFairy on December 19, 2003, at 0:27:06
Karmafairy,
I agree that the politics stink. Availability is an issue. We in the western world seem to be fascinated with drugs and we seem to enjoy finding uses for them.
I hope you are right that most of those 50,000 children don't really need treatment with antidepressants. First that there really aren't 50,000 children suffering from mental illness. Second that if taken off of these meds these children will be fine.
I worry about treatment for children all the time. It is a main concern on my job and I was one of those kids too. I just hope that this rather radical step by the UK government is going to turn out OK.
Simcha
> I also know of the successes associated with drugs, and do not mean to discount those. I am mostly upset with the fact that virtually anyone (regardless of one's mental health) can obtain AD's if they wish, but when one wants solid answers to questions about these medications, often times there has been too little research. This is not the right way to do it at all. I suppose I am more upset with the politics of the drugs at the moment, than the drugs themselves. If a person displays sufficient need for a drug that has been proven safe, they should be able to have it. But I fear that too few of those 50,000 children really needed the drugs in the first place.
Posted by linkadge on December 19, 2003, at 9:11:15
In reply to Re: UK Has Banned Medication for Depressed Children? » KarmaFairy, posted by Simcha on December 19, 2003, at 0:50:48
To ban these medications would be a mistake. I think the real problem is that these medications are targeted, and tested in adults. Oftentimes the doses of these drugs are those that are adequite for adults not children.
In my opinion, 5mg of prozac would be considered a childs dose, unfortunately the smallest dose available is a 10mg. Really more research should be done. I know that nutrition has a great deal to do with it as well. I could never remember feeling 'normal' until I added folic acid supplements to my diet. Unfortunately children are more accepting and trusting that adults are. If a adult feels like crap on a new drug then he might more easily put two and two together to say, this is the new drug's fault. However if a child is put on a new drug, and feels horrible, then is conceivably much more difficult for the child to realize this.
It is when you are growing up that you learn
and create your ideas of how the world is supposed to be. A child who is reacting horribly to a new drug might blame this on himself, friends, school whatever.I definately think the drugs should be used where appropriate, but we need some more child specific testing of these drugs. I know that I would be a lot more normal if somebody had treated my depression when it started. Back in grade 8, I was well liked in school and did well, however every day I contemplated deeply the ways I could end my life.
Linkadge
Posted by PoohBear on December 19, 2003, at 10:37:21
In reply to I agree with simcha, posted by linkadge on December 19, 2003, at 9:11:15
It's really a shame that the British government has seen the need to make this decision. However. this is a very confusing issue and there seems to be plenty of 'evidence' from all sides; too much perhaps.
Our western society IS too anxious to prescribe drugs (witness the overuse of antibiotics...), but I for one have inherited depression. My mother and all of her sisters died fairly early from the effects of depression and alcoholism. My salvation (no pun intended) has been my strong faith, but I recently turned to drugs to treat my depression. Why?
Because at 47 I want to live a 'normal' life without the darkness that was crowding out my ability to interact with others in a loving, caring way. As my Pdoc and I have tried different medications we have found that my system has a very low tolerance for drugs of ANY kind.
Could it be that many of the children are being over-medicated?
It's a sad day when ANY government feels the need to step into an issue like this, but obviously, it's a direct response to abuse. Too bad that its the children (and parents by association) of Britain that will suffer as a result.
TR
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 19, 2003, at 13:52:08
In reply to I agree with simcha, posted by linkadge on December 19, 2003, at 9:11:15
I'm having trouble finding reportsd of this in any other news source.. and I read a few daily so I'm auprised I missed this one. I'm also alerts from the British Society medicine and missed this on there.
I know they "suggested" that Seroxat (paxil) not be prescribed to under 18's.. and I know they were also going to "suggest" the same about Effexor..
But I'm not sure they have said that it will NOT BE ALLOWED under any circumstance to prescribe these.
I do know however that SSRI's can be dangerous.. I know that from first hand experience, and I know they are highly highly over prescribed here in UK, so I think ideas to curb their use is a good thing. Banning the, I agree, is wrong.
Nikki
Posted by Interject79 on December 19, 2003, at 16:59:04
In reply to Re: UK Has Banned Medication for Depressed Children?, posted by KarmaFairy on December 18, 2003, at 22:38:23
It looks like they're allowing Prozac but not others if the report is right. This probably has to do with discontinuation syndrome, which I suspect is responsible for many suicides by itself.
This is a really good discussion I think, and important to have. I'd come down in favor of banning for children honsetly, if Prozac is to be allowed still. Psychiatrists do valuable work, that's for sure, as do psychologists and counselors. But SSRIs have some very nasty side effects, many of which are likely not officially 'recognized'. Most of the people I know who've been treated with them (self included) remain depressed, obsessive, anxious, etc. And all (except two who've used Prozac) experienced near life-changing/threatening withdrawal symptoms. Suicide is a very understandable fear, though. One hopes other venues will be pursued. Other medications, interventions exist and perhaps they should be moved up the candidate list.
Posted by stjames on December 19, 2003, at 17:15:33
In reply to Re: UK Has Banned Medication for Depressed Children?, posted by Interject79 on December 19, 2003, at 16:59:04
You are ignoring the fact some kids do well on AD's and need them. I needed ritalin as a child and am glad I took it. Why hamstring all children
if some have problems ? Seems like this is an issue with proper prescribing of meds and not the meds, themselves.So, if you advocate cutting off meds for kids, will you be there to pick up the pieces ? Will you be there after the suicide ?
From you armchair it is easy to say there are other oprions ? How is counceling going to help
a Bi Polar child. DP is an organic, medical condition.
This is the end of the thread.
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