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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ace on July 24, 2003, at 23:40:59
Hey Kids, I'm doing a bit of research on the MAOIs. I have plenty of Nardil success story anecdotes but I need more on Parnate. I am actually doing some statiscal work on the two as compared to other AD's.
Questions...(assuming Parnate was great for you)
1. How long did it take to kick in?
2. What dose did it kick in on?
3. Have you been on Nardil? If so, what is better, Nardil or Parnate?
4. How long have you been on the Parnate?
5. Other comments?Thanks guys, much appreciated. Hope the Parnate is great for you all still.
Ace.
Posted by cubbybear on July 25, 2003, at 4:09:47
In reply to PARNATE Success stories - ALL please, posted by ace on July 24, 2003, at 23:40:59
> Hey Kids, I'm doing a bit of research on the MAOIs. I have plenty of Nardil success story anecdotes but I need more on Parnate. I am actually doing some statiscal work on the two as compared to other AD's.
>
> Questions...(assuming Parnate was great for you)
>
> 1. How long did it take to kick in?In separate trials over the course of 20 years, usually 3-4 weeks.
>
> 2. What dose did it kick in on?
40 mg. I decreased it to my regular 30 mg. maintenance dose about one month ago.
>
> 3. Have you been on Nardil? If so, what is better, Nardil or Parnate?
> Never been on Nardil> 4. How long have you been on the Parnate?
First trial about 20 years ago; tried on a few occasions to stop it to see how I would do, but depression always relapsed. Last year, I tried Remeron, Zoloft, and Moclobemide to see if they'd be as good as Parnate. All 3 were given up for various reasons. Resumed Parnate on March 2, 2003; it kicked in after 3 weeks. Feeling fine again.
>
>
> 5. Other comments?
Side effects-- low blood pressure at the beginning only; dry mouth at the beginning, increased craving for sweets and carbohydrates and weight gain. Reduced need for sleep, but no problematic insomnia. No interference with libido or sexual performance.Why exactly are you doing the survey? And can you do it really scientifically, like, what percentage of success stories involved weight loss vs. weight gain, did any include hypertensive crises (the main argument put forth to deter patients from taking Parnate), what were the highest doses tolerated?, etc. --all that kind of stuff.
Posted by MelD on July 25, 2003, at 18:45:34
In reply to PARNATE Success stories - ALL please, posted by ace on July 24, 2003, at 23:40:59
>> Questions...(assuming Parnate was great for you)
>
> 1. How long did it take to kick in?
Less than a week
> 2. What dose did it kick in on?
20 mg, with full effect at 40> 3. Have you been on Nardil? If so, what is better, Nardil or Parnate?
I felt ill on Nardil. It relieved depression, but i had "brain fog" and felt generally unwell. For me, Parnate is the brilliant one, as Nardil is for you (we are very fortunate people, are we not?)> 4. How long have you been on the Parnate?
4 months
>
> 5. Other comments?
>
Parnate started to poop out on me at 40mg, increased to 60 and it is working well again.
Main "complaint" is muscle tension and edema. Both minor and merely annoying, Libido is definitely enhanced. At age 53 i am having more and better sex than i did in my 20s (responsible sex of course and only with my husband - can you tell im a MOM? LOL)
>
> Thanks guys, much appreciated. Hope the Parnate is great for you all still.
>
> Ace.Anything for you, dear Ace. Good luck with your studies.
Posted by ace on July 25, 2003, at 20:15:32
In reply to Re: PARNATE Success stories - ALL please, posted by MelD on July 25, 2003, at 18:45:34
> >> Questions...(assuming Parnate was great for you)
> >
> > 1. How long did it take to kick in?
> Less than a week
> > 2. What dose did it kick in on?
> 20 mg, with full effect at 40
>
> > 3. Have you been on Nardil? If so, what is better, Nardil or Parnate?
> I felt ill on Nardil. It relieved depression, but i had "brain fog" and felt generally unwell. For me, Parnate is the brilliant one, as Nardil is for you (we are very fortunate people, are we not?)
>
> > 4. How long have you been on the Parnate?
> 4 months
> >
> > 5. Other comments?
> >
> Parnate started to poop out on me at 40mg, increased to 60 and it is working well again.
> Main "complaint" is muscle tension and edema. Both minor and merely annoying, Libido is definitely enhanced. At age 53 i am having more and better sex than i did in my 20sYou lucky thing! That's one prob with Nardil (as you've probably figured out from my other posts!)
(responsible sex of course and only with my husband - can you tell im a MOM? LOL)
I never knew, but I'm sure your a wonderful mother.
> > Thanks guys, much appreciated. Hope the Parnate is great for you all still.
> >
> > Ace.
>
> Anything for you, dear Ace. Good luck with your studies.So happy for you Mel. Thanks so much for responding. I've made the decision that as my main AD I'll never be on any other except Nardil or Parnate. Your posts are an inspiration to me.
With the minor s/effects have you considered swimming? Great exercise for muscle tension. Once again congrats on your find with Parnate- if I was you I'd stay on it for life.God Bless you Mel,
Andrew (Ace, The Nardil Man!).
Posted by ace on July 25, 2003, at 21:20:23
In reply to Re: PARNATE Success stories - ALL please, posted by cubbybear on July 25, 2003, at 4:09:47
> Why exactly are you doing the survey? And can you do it really scientifically, like, what percentage of success stories involved weight loss vs. weight gain, did any include hypertensive crises (the main argument put forth to deter patients from taking Parnate), what were the highest doses tolerated?, etc. --all that kind of stuff.
Yeah, my study will be a real cracker! I know all sorts of statistics so I can do it. It's gonna be all those types of things you mention plus how MAOIs compare to SSRIs and TCAs.I love anecdotes: your hearing right from the horses mouth. I have thousands of anecdotes in my files from responses from all sorts of psychiatric drugs. Clinical reports and reports from MDs sometimes can be distorted, not too mention grossly bias.
I mean some shrinks foolishly think an 'better looking' 'objective' patient is more important than a better feeling 'subjective patient'. Anyhow, most of them are objectively nuts in my opinion!
Take Care,
Ace.
Posted by djmmm on July 27, 2003, at 10:18:36
In reply to PARNATE Success stories - ALL please, posted by ace on July 24, 2003, at 23:40:59
> Hey Kids, I'm doing a bit of research on the MAOIs. I have plenty of Nardil success story anecdotes but I need more on Parnate. I am actually doing some statiscal work on the two as compared to other AD's.
>
> Questions...(assuming Parnate was great for you)
>
> 1. How long did it take to kick in?I only took it for a few months (4 I think), after a long run with Nardil
> 2. What dose did it kick in on?
I felt a significant difference when I increased from 30mg to 40mg
>
> 3. Have you been on Nardil? If so, what is better, Nardil or Parnate?In retrospect, Nardil was superior (for my particular problems) but Parnate was a wonderfully effective med, too.
> 4. How long have you been on the Parnate?
I took if for a few months, after being on Nardil for a few years, and then Parnate for a few months I quit MAOIs
>
> 5. Other comments?I'm Med free and symptom free....but keep in mind, I had been on medications for the greater part of 10 years.
>
>
>
> Thanks guys, much appreciated. Hope the Parnate is great for you all still.
>
> Ace.
Posted by cybercafe on July 27, 2003, at 22:28:14
In reply to PARNATE Success stories - ALL please, posted by ace on July 24, 2003, at 23:40:59
> Hey Kids, I'm doing a bit of research on the MAOIs. I have plenty of Nardil success story anecdotes but I need more on Parnate. I am actually doing some statiscal work on the two as compared to other AD's.
>
> Questions...(assuming Parnate was great for you)
>
> 1. How long did it take to kick in?immediate stimulant euphoria .... 1 month
euphoria wore off, a little depressed for 2nd month
3rd month, anti-depressant anti-anxiety effects kicked in>
> 2. What dose did it kick in on?smallest! 30 mg... and i usually take highest dosages of SSRIs (e.g. 60 mg celexa, 300 mg effexor)
>
> 3. Have you been on Nardil? If so, what is better, Nardil or Parnate?no... but parnate ROCKED! only drug i could be awake on less than 7 hours of sleep.. PLUS killer libido ... plus ate less... plus more energy ... and i think much lower risk of mania than SSRIs
>
> 4. How long have you been on the Parnate?6 months?? i love that drug.... really miss it
>
>
> 5. Other comments?now that my anxiety is gone and i am entering into relations with women i am really looking back with nostalgia on that parnate libido man.... it made me feel 10 years younger....
and i mean zyprexa PUTS ME TO SLEEP, 10,11,12 hours a day... BUT with parnate i only needed a perfect 7 or 8 hours... VERY GOOD combination... i REALLY MISS parnate (and this was at only 30 mg!)
Posted by ace on July 27, 2003, at 22:46:54
In reply to Re: PARNATE Success stories - ALL please, posted by cybercafe on July 27, 2003, at 22:28:14
Cybersafe, why did you stop Parnate?
Ace.
Posted by Psychquackery on July 28, 2003, at 21:07:06
In reply to Re: PARNATE Success stories - ALL please, posted by djmmm on July 27, 2003, at 10:18:36
Parnate is really the only antidepressant that works for me. I assume the other MAOIs would work for me as well but Ive never tried anything but parnate. Parnate is a great antidepressant, however its a double edged sword. Its a really dangerous drug and if you dont play by the rules exactly, you can get seriously messed up by parnate. But if you follow the diet and are disciplined, you can have a wonderful experience and probably have a good chance of getting out of depression for a change.
Its really strong stuff, works most of the time in refractory depression but it is damn dangerous stuff and you must respect that drug.
Igor
Posted by theo on July 28, 2003, at 22:45:14
In reply to Parnate...double edged sword, posted by Psychquackery on July 28, 2003, at 21:07:06
Posted by craig getty on July 29, 2003, at 3:51:27
In reply to PARNATE Success stories - ALL please, posted by ace on July 24, 2003, at 23:40:59
Ace,
I think your "study" is a great idea. For me, personal anecdotes are just as important as scientific studies. I think Peter Kramer's Prozac books demonstrate that.
One suggestion...I think it would be beneficial for you to include the lack-of-success stories as well, just to give a well-rounded view.
Is there a way to see the information you gathered on Nardil?
Craig
Posted by Psychquackery on July 29, 2003, at 8:04:40
In reply to Re: Parnate...Why so dangerous?? (nm) » Psychquackery, posted by theo on July 28, 2003, at 22:45:14
Hi Theo,
Parnate as well as all irreversible MAOIs, are highly dangerous drugs. Why? Because they require a strict MAOI diet, which if you deviate from even a small amount can result in a hypertensive disaster and emergency. Also, you cannot take most types of drugs while on irreversible MAOIs such as Parnate/Nardil and Marplan. No cold medications...take a sudafed on parnate and there is a good chance you will have a stroke.
Ive personally experienced this, I have had two mild MAOI hypertensive crisises. Luckily, I have never had a "big one" that was life threatening or required a visit to the ER. But I did have to go off the parnate for a while when it happened.
But I still love parnate, because it gives such a euphoric antidepressant response and because its really the only chemical antidepressant Ive tried that works for me. I think ECT would work for me as well, but I havent tried that yet. I have good confidence testosterone might work for me, but Im not going to touch that until my T levels actually come off abnormally low.
Hope the above info was thorough and clearcut...Igor
Posted by cubbybear on July 30, 2003, at 1:17:12
In reply to Re: Parnate...Why so dangerous??, posted by Psychquackery on July 29, 2003, at 8:04:40
> Hi Theo,
>
> Parnate as well as all irreversible MAOIs, are highly dangerous drugs. Why? Because they require a strict MAOI diet, which if you deviate from even a small amount can result in a hypertensive disaster and emergency. .I think that a number of people would disagree regarding the magnitude of the danger. Foods that were once considered absolute no-nos have been found to be safe when consumed in small amounts, while others that were considered "iffy", such as raisins, are now considered fully safe. A lot has been learned about the problematic foods over the past decade, and a number of posts on this board have links that spell out exactly how much tyramine will be produced by specific foods--info that was not available before. There is more of a leeway than was originally thought; and while you may have little or no leeway, that doesn't mean that this drug is as dangerous as you make it out to be for all people. Caution is definitely in order, but scare tactics and overly-strong advisories can be dangerous too--in keeping depressed patients away from MAOs--they have helped countless patients for more than 40 years with only a small percentage of "disasters."
>
>
Posted by stjames on July 31, 2003, at 20:49:50
In reply to Re: Parnate...Why so dangerous?? » Psychquackery, posted by cubbybear on July 30, 2003, at 1:17:12
Please see thread at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030728/msgs/246402.html
Posted by cubbybear on July 31, 2003, at 21:17:32
In reply to Re: Parnate...Why so dangerous, posted by stjames on July 31, 2003, at 20:49:50
I recall the above posting well. It doesn't say why the patient suffered the hypertensive crisis; for all we know he/she ate one or more of the forbidden foods in excess. It is an anecdote from one individual and does not represent the experiences of Parnate users in general. There is only a small minority for whom Parnate has proven "dangerous." I'll stick with my original stance on this medication. I've been taking it for 20+ years, am careful about what I eat and what medicines I take, and never once experienced high blood pressure.
Posted by ace on July 31, 2003, at 21:57:06
In reply to Re: PARNATE Success stories - ALL please » ace, posted by craig getty on July 29, 2003, at 3:51:27
> Ace,
>
> I think your "study" is a great idea. For me, personal anecdotes are just as important as scientific studies. I think Peter Kramer's Prozac books demonstrate that.
>
> One suggestion...I think it would be beneficial for you to include the lack-of-success stories as well, just to give a well-rounded view.
>
> Is there a way to see the information you gathered on Nardil?
>
> Craig
Man, my study will kick ass...I've been delayed due to Nardil probs (read below) but all you legends are going to know about it,Cheers bro!
Ace.
Posted by stjames on July 31, 2003, at 23:25:35
In reply to Re: Parnate...Why so dangerous » stjames, posted by cubbybear on July 31, 2003, at 21:17:32
There is only a small minority for whom Parnate has proven "dangerous." I'll stick with my original stance on this medication. I've been taking it for 20+ years, am careful about what I eat and what medicines I take, and never once experienced high blood pressure.
I think you are applying your experience to
everyone else. Considering the risk is a hypertensive crisis that can be life threating
(far more than high blood pressure) I have a problem with making light of the restrictions
when you take some MAOI's.I am not down on MAOI's, they are very effective
treatments for me. However, I am part rat and cannot give up cheese and other aged products.
A challange produced a pronounced hypertensive crisis, for me.
Posted by Anonne on August 1, 2003, at 1:25:27
In reply to Re: Parnate...Why so dangerous » stjames, posted by cubbybear on July 31, 2003, at 21:17:32
St.James, thanks for linking my post.
I didn't include what had precipitated the hypertensive reaction in that post, so I might as well venture a guess here. (I did post about that in detail last year, or perhaps early in 2003, but I have to find it to link to it)
The 1st hypertensive reaction I had in 1990 is probably linked to a bagel with alfalfa sprouts, tomatoes, and a small (!) slice of Swiss cheese. Oops! Well, the cheese may have been quite aged, I don't know. I had been able to eat pizzas w/ cheese (mozarella?) and pepperoni, and drink small quantities of beer (not dark ales) w/ no problem.
The 2nd hypertensive event I couldn't wrap my head around; this was in 1998. I had Chinese food, take-out, w/ my family; supposedly NO MSG. It was "lemon chicken", w/ NO soy sauce, and white rice; a mango and some Haagen Daasz (sp.?) icecream (Dulce de Leche, yum!) for dessert. Monica Lewinsky was the topic of our conversation; it was quite funny, but the sudden scalp prickliness and shivers and heart palpitations were not. Within five minutes I realized what was going on, and to the ER we went. "Anxiety attack!" was the dx; mind you, Ativan or Xanax or Klonopin DO (or can) relieve the horrid headache; nothing was done about the Blood pressure, which was recorded there as 155/95 (my typical b.p. was 100/70, very low; plus I was taking a small amount of Aldactone (spironolactone), which further lowers blood pressure.
Event #3, last year: Indian food. Protein putrefication? Butter chicken and some kind of fish, also carry-out. Bad idea. I had eaten TONS of Indian food before w/ no ill effects. No one else got sick; the spices may have hid what was going on w/ the meat. Or else I got hypersensitive to tyramine. I don't know.
MAOIs can be life-saving; I LOVED my Nardil, although it did plateau out after a few years; the hypomania is something I don't get w/ Effexor XR or Remeron. I do wish I could have stayed on those little orange pills.
I am writing the FDA asking that MAO-I meds carry SPECIFIC instructions to E.R. and other health professionals, including instructions to patient on educating the health profs. Some ERs go by blood pressure figures alone; what may seem HYPERTENSIVE to me may not READ like a huge spike in numbers; however, the damage may be just as great.
If you do end up in an ER situation, DO DEMAND a head scan. Cerebrovascular accidents are apparently a great concern w/ hypertensive crises, or 'events'. Wish I'd known. Duh. Even my dx'ing psychiatrist NEVER suggested one, nor did he suggest a head CT. I was lucky the 3rd time.
I do not want to discourage others from taking these medications; I just want there to be uniformity in care, and precautionary tales for those who think it can't happen to them. It can, it may not. Do consider MEDIC ID bracelets, or some sort of ID. Do consider a WRITTEN EMERGENCY PLAN, along with medicine (Thorazine? Nifepidine seems to be hotly debated).
Do check out https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/medwatch/ for reporting adverse effects of drugs or medical devices.
> I recall the above posting well. It doesn't say why the patient suffered the hypertensive crisis; for all we know he/she ate one or more of the forbidden foods in excess. It is an anecdote from one individual and does not represent the experiences of Parnate users in general. There is only a small minority for whom Parnate has proven "dangerous." I'll stick with my original stance on this medication. I've been taking it for 20+ years, am careful about what I eat and what medicines I take, and never once experienced high blood pressure.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 1, 2003, at 17:36:32
In reply to Re: PARNATE Success stories - ALL please » craig getty, posted by ace on July 31, 2003, at 21:57:06
> Man, my study will kick *ss...
I've asked you before not to use language here that could offend others, so I'm going to block you from posting again. Last time it was for 2 weeks, so this time it's for 4.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 4, 2003, at 3:39:34
In reply to Re: blocked for 4 weeks » ace, posted by Dr. Bob on August 1, 2003, at 17:36:32
> PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration
Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20030508/msgs/247632.html
Bob
Posted by TapiocaMonk on August 5, 2003, at 15:15:57
In reply to Redirect: posting policies, posted by Dr. Bob on August 4, 2003, at 3:39:34
If you are fed up with the senseless language policing on this message board or if you are just looking for another source of supportive MAOI users, may I suggest trying the MAOI message board on yahoo.com.
I started out posting on psycho-babble months ago, but stopped entirely after finding this wonderful new message board and getting a bit fed up with Dr. Bob's censorship. Give it a try.
Here is the link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/maois/messagesHope to see you there.
This is the end of the thread.
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