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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by kka on July 15, 2003, at 23:15:45
Has anyone combined 5-HTP with Lexapro, I am thinking about beginning to take it with Lexapro, it has so many benefits, including weight loss. Has anyone had any experience taking this with a SSRI? Any input would be great! Thanks!!
Posted by Sabina on July 16, 2003, at 0:52:50
In reply to Lexapro and 5-HTP, posted by kka on July 15, 2003, at 23:15:45
I'm not an expert by a long shot, but I read and have been told that this combination is a no-no...too much of a good thing, etc.
Posted by Bill L on July 16, 2003, at 12:59:00
In reply to Lexapro and 5-HTP, posted by kka on July 15, 2003, at 23:15:45
There is a lot written about the great benefits of taking oral 5-HTP. But I have read a lot of posts from people who have actually tried it and they are generaly not very positive.
Posted by Peter S. on July 16, 2003, at 15:26:42
In reply to Re: Lexapro and 5-HTP, posted by Bill L on July 16, 2003, at 12:59:00
I have yet to hear personally of anyone who has benefited from 5-HTP. Anyone out there?
> There is a lot written about the great benefits of taking oral 5-HTP. But I have read a lot of posts from people who have actually tried it and they are generaly not very positive.
Posted by kka on July 16, 2003, at 15:37:36
In reply to Re: Lexapro and 5-HTP, posted by Bill L on July 16, 2003, at 12:59:00
Thanks for all the feeback, I don't think I 'll start taking any!!
Posted by jlo820 on July 16, 2003, at 16:25:19
In reply to Re: Lexapro and 5-HTP, posted by kka on July 16, 2003, at 15:37:36
Only thing it did for me was make me tired all the time, so I guess it could be good for sleep.
Posted by Sabina on July 16, 2003, at 18:24:06
In reply to 5 htp- all hype?, posted by Peter S. on July 16, 2003, at 15:26:42
I do think it helped me sleep better, but I wasn't on any meds at the time.
Posted by stjames on July 17, 2003, at 16:04:18
In reply to 5 htp- all hype?, posted by Peter S. on July 16, 2003, at 15:26:42
> I have yet to hear personally of anyone who has benefited from 5-HTP. Anyone out there?
>
> > There is a lot written about the great benefits of taking oral 5-HTP. But I have read a lot of posts from people who have actually tried it and they are generaly not very positive.Depression is not caused by a deficiency
of neurotransmitters, so supplementing to
make more is not a treatment. Also, feedback systems do not allow a one to one relationship between percursors and end product neurotransmitters. NO matter how much 5 htp
you take in you will not make more NT's, after a point.
Posted by Anton on July 17, 2003, at 17:52:51
In reply to Re: 5 htp- all hype?, posted by stjames on July 17, 2003, at 16:04:18
I thought depression was casued by serotonin depletion between neurons? A deficiency of serotonin or serotonin activity between neurons in the brain? 5-HTP which I had taken before taking any anti-depressents did deffently work on my serotonin levels by making me feel calmer, happier, and got rid of any headaches, it also helped for sleep. And it's a pretty good weight loss too. 5-htp also works on norepinephrine slightly, so it differs in that regard from tryptophan. I personally find 5-htp to be very useful when not taking any SSRI's or other prescribed anti-depressents. But you're probably not going to feel it do jack if you're already on an anti-depressent.
Posted by stjames on July 17, 2003, at 23:08:28
In reply to Re: 5 htp- all hype?, posted by Anton on July 17, 2003, at 17:52:51
> I thought depression was casued by serotonin depletion between neurons? A deficiency of serotonin or serotonin activity between neurons in the brain?
Maybe 20 years ago. We really don't know what causes depression. Depletion theories are far too simple.
Raising the levels of NT's at the clef does happen but it happens almost at once after taking an AD. If that was the issue, AD's would work at once. It seems that raising levels in one place causes a cacsade of events, down regulation, ect.The logic here is simple, if we really knew the specifics of depression it would have very effective treatments that worked for almost everyone.
Here, a well know researcher and pdoc says "we really don't know"
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030714/msgs/242749.html
Posted by SLS on July 18, 2003, at 7:08:55
In reply to Re: 5 htp- all hype?, posted by stjames on July 17, 2003, at 16:04:18
> Depression is not caused by a deficiency
> of neurotransmitters, so supplementing to
> make more is not a treatment.
Many people whom achieve remission while taking an SSRI relapse when they are placed on a diet devoid of tryptophan and causing tryptophan depletion. Upon the reintroduction of tryptophan, the antidepressant effect is recaptured. This phenomenon has been replicated many times. However, I wouldn't venture to interpret this as proof of the efficacy of 5-HTP. It is definitely a salient finding, though.
- Scott
Posted by McPac on July 18, 2003, at 14:11:39
In reply to Re: 5 htp- all hype?, posted by SLS on July 18, 2003, at 7:08:55
Yep! Works for me!!!!!!!
LOL
Posted by stjames on July 18, 2003, at 14:27:35
In reply to Re: 5 htp- all hype?, posted by SLS on July 18, 2003, at 7:08:55
I would say, "well, duh". Of course if you deplete
NT's to the significant degree this test does then you will have mood problems. However, the converse does not hold
true. AD's increase, at the clef, NT's almost at once but mood tracks 4-6 weeks after. This test is an extreme case in
terms of levels of depletion. Nor does precursor supplementation show robust AD response. Nor does this test show
show that NT depletion, alone, is the cause of depression. Just that it is one of many events.
If depletion was the sole cause precursors or AD's would be highly successful. They are not.
There is not lack of precursors in even the worst diet. Aminos are everywhere.
Mood if far too a complex system to rely on one event. Scott, I would assume you have read enough
to realize simplistic depletion theories are decades old !
Posted by stjames on July 18, 2003, at 14:53:52
In reply to Re: 5 htp- all hype?, posted by stjames on July 18, 2003, at 14:27:35
Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1994 Nov;51(11):865-74. Related Articles, Links
Serotonin and the neurobiology of depression. Effects of tryptophan depletion in drug-free depressed patients.Delgado PL, Price LH, Miller HL, Salomon RM, Aghajanian GK, Heninger GR, Charney DS.
Department of Psychiatry, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Conn.
OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effects of tryptophan depletion in untreated depressed patients. Rapid dietary depletion of the precursor of serotonin synthesis, tryptophan, causes a transient return of depression in 67% of patients who have had a therapeutic antidepressant response. METHOD: Forty-three untreated depressed patients underwent tryptophan depletion in a double-blind, placebo-controlled cross-over study. After testing, they received open sequential antidepressant treatment. RESULTS: Mood did not change when tryptophan was depleted but did change on the day after the depletion test. Relative to the control test, 37% of the patients had 10-point or greater decrease in Hamilton Depression Rating Scale (Ham-D) score, while 23% had a 10-point or greater increase in Ham-D score on the day after the tryptophan depletion test. Change in mood was correlated to treatment response after testing. Patients whose condition worsened proved to be highly refractory to treatment while those who showed improvement were more likely to respond. CONCLUSIONS: That tryptophan depletion did not rapidly worsen depression argues that serotonin function is not linearly related to the level of depression and if reduced serotonin function does cause depression, then it is either as predisposing factor or due to a postsynaptic deficit in the utilization of serotonin.
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Controlled Clinical TrialPMID: 7944875 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7944875&dopt=Abstract
Posted by stjames on July 18, 2003, at 15:03:08
In reply to Re: 5 htp- all hype?, posted by stjames on July 18, 2003, at 14:27:35
The good bits:
in depressed patients who have responded to treatment suggest that, while interactions between NE and 5-HT are likely, neither of these 2 neurotransmitter systems is the final common pathway for the therapeutic effect of antidepressant drugs
!
Neither 5-HT nor NE depletion induced clinical depression in healthy subjects or worsened depression in unmedicated symptomatic patients with major depression. This finding suggests that the cause of depression is ****more complex than just an alteration in the levels of 5-HT and/or NE.****
!
We propose that antidepressant drugs may enhance neurotransmission in normal noradrenergic or serotonergic neurons and, through a time-dependent but as yet undiscovered process, restore function to brain areas modulated by monoamine neurons.
!james here.....
Note that this is saying that NE and 5-HT
are NIT the common pathway to depression.
But that is all we know about how the drugs work.
We are way off track if we focus on that.
Much more is happening here.Precursors work great, because of strong placebo
effects and that many mistakenlly think depletion
is what causes depression. (However, if it works
for you, it matters not why !!!)Role of norepinephrine in depression
by
Delgado PL, Moreno FA
Department of Psychiatry,
University of Arizona Medical Center,
Tucson, USA.
delgado@u.arizona.edu
J Clin Psychiatry 2000; 61 Suppl 1:5-12ABSTRACT
This article reviews the role of norepinephrine (NE) and serotonin (5-HT) in depression and the therapeutic effects of antidepressant drugs from the perspective of human neurotransmitter depletion studies. The data reviewed suggest that both noradrenergic and serotonergic systems are involved in antidepressant action, but the specific impairment that underlies depression is unclear and is likely to vary among patients. Results from neurotransmitter depletion studies in depressed patients who have responded to treatment suggest that, while interactions between NE and 5-HT are likely, neither of these 2 neurotransmitter systems is the final common pathway for the therapeutic effect of antidepressant drugs. NE-selective antidepressant drugs appear to be primarily dependent on the availability of NE for their effects. Likewise, 5-HT-selective antidepressants appear to be primarily dependent on the availability of 5-HT for their effects. Antidepressants that cause effects on both noradrenergic and serotonergic systems-such as mirtazapine-may be dependent on the availability of both neurotransmitters for their effects. Neither 5-HT nor NE depletion induced clinical depression in healthy subjects or worsened depression in unmedicated symptomatic patients with major depression. This finding suggests that the cause of depression is more complex than just an alteration in the levels of 5-HT and/or NE. For some patients, depression may be more directly caused by dysfunction in brain areas or neuronal systems modulated by monoamine systems. We propose that antidepressant drugs may enhance neurotransmission in normal noradrenergic or serotonergic neurons and, through a time-dependent but as yet undiscovered process, restore function to brain areas modulated by monoamine neurons. Future research should focus on understanding the adaptive changes that follow enhancement of synaptic levels of monoamines in neuronal circuits of the frontal cortex, amygdala, and hippocampus. Research investigating the neurobiology of depression may be more informed if the focus is shifted to investigating areas of the brain modulated by monoamine systems rather than the monoamine systems themselves.
Posted by kka on July 18, 2003, at 15:50:14
In reply to Re: 5 htp- all hype?, posted by stjames on July 18, 2003, at 15:03:08
Why do AD's make you gain weight if they increase your serotonin levels and 5-HTP claims to help you loose weight be increasing your serotonin levels?????? Can someone explain this, you guys are knowledgeable!!!!
Posted by stjames on July 18, 2003, at 16:03:48
In reply to Re: 5 htp- all hype?, posted by kka on July 18, 2003, at 15:50:14
> Why do AD's make you gain weight if they increase your serotonin levels and 5-HTP claims to help you loose weight be increasing your serotonin levels?????? Can someone explain this, you guys are knowledgeable!!!!
It is fact more complex than "increase your serotonin levels".
Posted by SLS on July 18, 2003, at 19:24:27
In reply to Re: 5 htp- all hype?, posted by SLS on July 18, 2003, at 7:08:55
Oops.
I wanted to include this link in my previous post:
> > Depression is not caused by a deficiency
> > of neurotransmitters, so supplementing to
> > make more is not a treatment.
>
>
> Many people whom achieve remission while taking an SSRI relapse when they are placed on a diet devoid of tryptophan and causing tryptophan depletion. Upon the reintroduction of tryptophan, the antidepressant effect is recaptured. This phenomenon has been replicated many times. However, I wouldn't venture to interpret this as proof of the efficacy of 5-HTP. It is definitely a salient finding, though.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12813118&dopt=Abstract
Posted by SLS on July 18, 2003, at 19:35:02
In reply to Re: 5 htp- all hype?, posted by stjames on July 18, 2003, at 14:27:35
> Mood if far too a complex system to rely on one event.
At least it seems that no one event has yet been discovered.
> Scott, I would assume you have read enough
to realize simplistic depletion theories are decades old !Yup.
I think it is incumbent upon us to remember how little we yet understand about the neurobiology of the brain in health and disease.
- Scott
This is the end of the thread.
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