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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Michael Bell on June 4, 2003, at 21:46:15
For many with social phobia, it seems that no drug or combo of drugs comes close to the anti-anxiety and anti-depressive effects of a few drinks. In my own experience (someone with severe social phobia, now controlled for the most part), a few beers on their own are superior to any drug or supplement I've ever tried. Throw in a GABA based drug with those 2-3 beers, and forget it. I become EXTREMELY social, disinhibited (but not out of control), funny, confident, and yet not manic and in total control of myself. Socializing comes as naturally breathing, and it's like the words just form on their own. It's like I always have a response, and it's always the right thing to say. Sometimes I amaze myself!
This gives me hope. It means that there is a known substance that totally defeats social phobia, and one of the oldest beverages on earth no less. The question is, how do we gain the positive effects of alcohol without the negative. Are scientists studying what the exact neurochemical effects of alcohol are?
This is my project: I am going to compile as much information as possible regarding the exact neurochemical and physiological effects of alcohol. Then I'm going to try and identify which drugs come closest to mimicking each of these effects. Theoretically, a cocktail of these drugs, in their right dosages, should prove really effective for SP. I know this is all conjecture and theory, but I tell you this - right there in my fridge are three cans of a substance that turns me into a the person I want to be. Please don't take this as an encouragement to drink. Alcoholism is a debilitating, deadly illness. But maybe there's a reason why alcohol hasn't lost its popularity after thousands of years...
Posted by bookgurl99 on June 5, 2003, at 1:59:32
In reply to Within ALCOHOL may lie the answer, posted by Michael Bell on June 4, 2003, at 21:46:15
"I have made an important discovery…that alcohol, taken in sufficient quantities, produces all the effects of intoxication."
-- Oscar WildeWow, this is an interesting project. But I think alcohol as already been encapsulated in the benzos. I could be wrong however, as I have had moments of feeling quite alert.
I rarely drink, having been raised Baptist, but when I do, I find that I'm more able to 'let go,' of needing to be 'charming' to those around me. I am more able to relax and just dance, or listen, or just have fun.
But last time it was like I was hypomanic. Blah blah blah story after story I told. Augh I was embarrassed the next day!
Posted by samplemethod on June 5, 2003, at 4:33:01
In reply to Within ALCOHOL may lie the answer, posted by Michael Bell on June 4, 2003, at 21:46:15
Alcohol is pretty good I admit. The after affects arent as good.
At the moment I am looking into the NMDA part alcohol affects, and the relation of this to the amino acid Glycine. I seemed to get great results when I mixed glycine with a little alcohol actually.
Anyway you will be very interested in the pdf below. I found it while looking for info on glycine.
http://www.acnp.org/g5/p/SC100_1425-1444.pdf
EnjoysampleM
> For many with social phobia, it seems that no drug or combo of drugs comes close to the anti-anxiety and anti-depressive effects of a few drinks. In my own experience (someone with severe social phobia, now controlled for the most part), a few beers on their own are superior to any drug or supplement I've ever tried. Throw in a GABA based drug with those 2-3 beers, and forget it. I become EXTREMELY social, disinhibited (but not out of control), funny, confident, and yet not manic and in total control of myself. Socializing comes as naturally breathing, and it's like the words just form on their own. It's like I always have a response, and it's always the right thing to say. Sometimes I amaze myself!
>
> This gives me hope. It means that there is a known substance that totally defeats social phobia, and one of the oldest beverages on earth no less. The question is, how do we gain the positive effects of alcohol without the negative. Are scientists studying what the exact neurochemical effects of alcohol are?
>
> This is my project: I am going to compile as much information as possible regarding the exact neurochemical and physiological effects of alcohol. Then I'm going to try and identify which drugs come closest to mimicking each of these effects. Theoretically, a cocktail of these drugs, in their right dosages, should prove really effective for SP. I know this is all conjecture and theory, but I tell you this - right there in my fridge are three cans of a substance that turns me into a the person I want to be. Please don't take this as an encouragement to drink. Alcoholism is a debilitating, deadly illness. But maybe there's a reason why alcohol hasn't lost its popularity after thousands of years...
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 5, 2003, at 8:00:27
In reply to Within ALCOHOL may lie the answer, posted by Michael Bell on June 4, 2003, at 21:46:15
> In my own experience (someone with severe social phobia, now controlled for the most part), a few beers on their own are superior to any drug or supplement I've ever tried.
> This gives me hope. It means that there is a known substance that totally defeats social phobia, and one of the oldest beverages on earth no less. The question is, how do we gain the positive effects of alcohol without the negative. Are scientists studying what the exact neurochemical effects of alcohol are?
I spent a lot of time on this subject, because I have alcohol abuse both in my individual and in my family history. I wanted to understand some the motives (inferred) why I used it, so that I might, as you suggest, find alternative methods to satisfy the same motives.
My conclusion first. I don't think that there is a way to derive any similar effect as the effect of alcohol. Alcohol causes an acute disturbance in the balance of the brain's functioning. I used the words disturbance and balance because alcohol distorts the normal relationships between the activity of the neurotransmitters, and in some respects, induces a response which would ordinarily be triggered by experiencing a rewarding event, rather than by the ingestion of a toxicant.
Alcohol's effect on neurotransmitter activity has been well-studied. I don't think there's a known neurotransmitter that is not affected by alcohol use.
The primary and dominant effects of alcohol use are upon serotonin, dopamine, and GABA. There is a generalized flood of serotonin, which remains depleted for a significant time after alcohol use. Dopamine is released into the reward pathway. Ethanol is a direct agonist of GABA receptors.
Two further issues which bear on alcohol use are timing and dose. It takes a significant period of time (weeks, probably) between uses of alcohol for the brain to escape the regulatory effects of alcohol; alcohol use desensitizes the neurotransmitter receptors most responsible for the feel-good effects. And, as for dose, I don't think too much explanation is necessary.
There is some evidence that subsequent alcohol use does not have the same effect as the first use. In heroin addiction, there's a term "chasing the dragon", by which some mean the repetitive but unsuccessful attempts to recapture the "virgin" response to using heroin. I think alcohol has a virgin effect, too. How long does it take for *your* brain to "reload" its neurotransmitters, and re-adjust its receptors?
Bizarre as it may seem, much of the effect of alcohol is also a learned response. There is a significant effect of cognition, as discovered when experimental subjects were led to believe they were consuming alcohol, when in fact, there was virtually none in their drinks. The drinks were actually fruit juice, with a few drops of alcohol added to the surface of the drink just before serving, to give the "nose" of a mixed drink (the subjects had been told they were going to get vodka and OJ). Despite the near-absence of alcohol, the group showed the same pro-social activities we associate with ethanol intoxication, and after the "appropriate" number of drinks were consumed, some even developed physical symptoms of ethanol intoxication. All through suggestion.
To come back to the conclusion again.....I don't believe you can mimic the effects of alcohol, without involving substitute intoxicants. And, based on some of your own words, I'm a little concerned that you may show some of the attitudes towards drinking that may predispose towards alcohol abuse. The latter is a precautionary statement, not a judgment. Just beware.
Lar
Posted by Felicity on June 5, 2003, at 8:27:09
In reply to Re: Within ALCOHOL may lie the answer » Michael Bell, posted by Larry Hoover on June 5, 2003, at 8:00:27
I can't help you with the scientific aspects of your problem, but I do know exactly what you're talking about. I have tremendous social anxiety, but two - three drinks and I'm talkative, friendly and can be quite funny at times. It also helps calm my general anxiety and phobias, such as flying and water. Let me know if I can do anything to help.
Posted by KellyD on June 5, 2003, at 8:39:45
In reply to Re: Within ALCOHOL may lie the answer, posted by Felicity on June 5, 2003, at 8:27:09
So, unless I want to trade one problem for another, I choose to stay away. The crash can sometimes last for days. Think of the liver consequences, too.(Mine might be shot already - but labs are good) Most of us tax our livers enough with the meds we use. Nice thought, if it was safe and without big problems.
Posted by KimberlyDi on June 5, 2003, at 8:44:24
In reply to Re: Within ALCOHOL may lie the answer » Michael Bell, posted by Larry Hoover on June 5, 2003, at 8:00:27
Is this social phobia that I see everyone talking about shyness? If so, was I unfortunate or lucky as a child that I wasn't medicated to take care of the excessive shyness that plagued me most of my life? Alcohol, liquid courage... Be careful. Some studies have shown that alcoholics lack normal reward functions in their brains so that the first time they take a drink of alcohol is the first time they actually feel *normal*. I know this feeling. It took me only 6 years to go from an intelligent gifted person with unlimited opportunities to a broken alcoholic suffering the H*LL of withdrawal. If it takes alcohol for you to feel comfortable in your skin, something is wrong. Good luck, Kim
Posted by janejj on June 5, 2003, at 13:35:47
In reply to Re: Within ALCOHOL may lie the answer, posted by KimberlyDi on June 5, 2003, at 8:44:24
I used to drink alot from 16-21, but in the last couple of years I've really gone off it. I used to drink because it made me more comfortable in social situations and just because that is what everyone else was doing too!
Now I don't like the feeling it produces in me....feels like I am not in control. I am alot more self assured in social situations now anyway, so i don't really need to drink anymore.
Having said that when everyone is drinking it can be quite a laugh when everyone is making a twat of themselves....though the hangover is a different story !!
janejj
Posted by BWII on June 5, 2003, at 15:21:59
In reply to Within ALCOHOL may lie the answer, posted by Michael Bell on June 4, 2003, at 21:46:15
I agree but tolerance tends to turn that 3 beer social buzz into a 3 martini must-have to go out drug. Just keep it under control and not a daily activity. I actually used to have a few drinks before class (in college) so I would feel comfortable speaking up...
Posted by Boba Fat on June 6, 2003, at 4:40:41
In reply to Re: Within ALCOHOL may lie the answer, posted by BWII on June 5, 2003, at 15:21:59
Alcohol is good for my socialphobia but because of its sedating effects and my overall lethargy it is better combined with a stimulant I'm afraid. You don't have to be an alcoholic to be someone who uses alcohol for anxiety, although its easy for tolerance and psychological addiction to occur when you get so much benefit from it. Having said that I have been alcohol free for two weeks now because of the pesky diet I am on! I have oodles of energy (but no motivation to do anything with it!) and my liver must be thanking me - but my Social Anxiety is as bad as ever :/
Posted by Caleb462 on June 6, 2003, at 23:32:35
In reply to Within ALCOHOL may lie the answer, posted by Michael Bell on June 4, 2003, at 21:46:15
> For many with social phobia, it seems that no drug or combo of drugs comes close to the anti-anxiety and anti-depressive effects of a few drinks. In my own experience (someone with severe social phobia, now controlled for the most part), a few beers on their own are superior to any drug or supplement I've ever tried. Throw in a GABA based drug with those 2-3 beers, and forget it. I become EXTREMELY social, disinhibited (but not out of control), funny, confident, and yet not manic and in total control of myself. Socializing comes as naturally breathing, and it's like the words just form on their own. It's like I always have a response, and it's always the right thing to say. Sometimes I amaze myself!
>
> This gives me hope. It means that there is a known substance that totally defeats social phobia, and one of the oldest beverages on earth no less. The question is, how do we gain the positive effects of alcohol without the negative. Are scientists studying what the exact neurochemical effects of alcohol are?
>
> This is my project: I am going to compile as much information as possible regarding the exact neurochemical and physiological effects of alcohol. Then I'm going to try and identify which drugs come closest to mimicking each of these effects. Theoretically, a cocktail of these drugs, in their right dosages, should prove really effective for SP. I know this is all conjecture and theory, but I tell you this - right there in my fridge are three cans of a substance that turns me into a the person I want to be. Please don't take this as an encouragement to drink. Alcoholism is a debilitating, deadly illness. But maybe there's a reason why alcohol hasn't lost its popularity after thousands of years...
I don't know... makes me feel like crap, usually. Alcohol for me is actually anxiogenic, increases obsessions, increases depression, and makes me want to isolate myself. Not ALWAYS... but this has been my usual response. I respond very differently to this drug then most people I guess.
Posted by Questionmark on June 7, 2003, at 2:14:09
In reply to Within ALCOHOL may lie the answer, posted by Michael Bell on June 4, 2003, at 21:46:15
> This is my project: I am going to compile as much information as possible regarding the exact neurochemical and physiological effects of alcohol. Then I'm going to try and identify which drugs come closest to mimicking each of these effects. Theoretically, a cocktail of these drugs, in their right dosages, should prove really effective for SP. I know this is all conjecture and theory, but I tell you this - right there in my fridge are three cans of a substance that turns me into a the person I want to be. Please don't take this as an encouragement to drink. Alcoholism is a debilitating, deadly illness. But maybe there's a reason why alcohol hasn't lost its popularity after thousands of years...
Great points and awesome idea, but unfortunately to mimic the effects of alcohol you'd need a serotonergic drug, a dopaminergic drug, a GABAergic drug, a glutamate... inhibitor?, and who knows what else. Ah, tis sad indeed. Heck, even if you could make a non-odorous alcohol i'd be all for it. Then i could be a drunk and not have people know who i didn't want to know... okay not really.
They say that barbiturates were like alcohol in a pill. i doubt they were that similar though. Probably just stupifying and very relaxing.
It is my firm opinion that nothing good in this world is ever without a downside. There will never be a perfect soma. There will never be alcohol in a pill. There will never be... i better stop.
Posted by mmcasey on June 7, 2003, at 13:58:31
In reply to Re: , posted by Questionmark on June 7, 2003, at 2:14:09
I used to drink quite heavily in college, and though I did feel just so much more sociable and outgoing, I ended up making a complete a**hole of myself. I developed somewhat of a reputation. It ended up getting really embarrassing. I also have alcoholism in my family. So I cut back. I also thought that downing a few shots of vodka before a presentation once or twice would help relax me (speaking in front of people is my one very serious phobia, to the point that I often feel like I am going to pass out, hyperventilate, can barely speak, etc). But it didn't even help!
Now drinking is different for me. I feel quite mellow and chilled out, but not wild and off the wall like I used to. It actually tends to make me more depressed I think, so I pretty much lay off the alcohol, or only have maybe one drink now and then. I think it's better that way.
I really was tired of making a f**cking a**hole of myself.
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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