![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 69 to 93 of 93. Go back in thread:
Posted by colin wallace on April 13, 2003, at 13:35:54
In reply to Re: Colin's Cameo Appearance » colin wallace, posted by Ron Hill on April 12, 2003, at 9:52:53
> Hi Colin,
>
> Good to see ya.
>
> > Wondered how you and Ron are doing lately (Ron's Enada trial?);
>
> I'm doing well. Thanks for asking. I take a 2.5 mg tablet of Enada NADH once every four days and it is working well for my atypical depression. As always, I continue to take my 600 mg/day of Lithobid.
>
> > hope I haven't missed any posts adressed to me.
>
> There were a couple. We were wondering what happened to you, but we figured you were gone on holiday.
>
> > My Lamictal is still prone to fading though, and I'll need to hit it soon with another mood stabilizer-have been refused lithium, until I get to see my psych.(three ****** months!!)
>
> Last I heard, you were scheduled to see an expert in bipolar disorder. That didn't happen, huh?
>
> Be well Colin.
>
Hey there Ron,Good to see you're making steady progress still-
2.5mg every four days eh??I'd read that this stuff is best taken at spaced intervals throughout the week ,so obviously there's something in that;I think it's pretty unique in it's lasting effects(I liked it too, but as I said,it was a little too overpowering combined with Lamictal).
I guess you got some irritability taking in on alternate days?Seems you have it nailed down anyhow, so let's hope the effects last consistently.
Oddly, I've found that the dreaded Prozac has been pretty astounding with the Lamictal.It has smoothed out my mood(s),and made me far more sociable(Lamictal got me out of a 2year stupor,and got me socializing again, and Prozac goes the extra mile, and makes me *feel* like socializing).Helps with the SAD too.
It's early days yet, but I'm hoping to add a small dose of lithium shortly, as an extra safeguard.I've realized that there's no way on earth I'll ever get by without an AD, so I've just had to accept it(and any inherant risks).
No signs at all of hypomania, so fingers crossed here.Keep in touch,
Col.
ps.how's Amy??
Posted by colin wallace on April 13, 2003, at 13:57:39
In reply to Colin- your lamictal, posted by Peter S. on April 11, 2003, at 15:21:42
> Hi Colin,.
>
> You and I seem to be in similar boats. I'm currently taking Lamictal (50 mg) and Prozac (occasionally). I'm also taking 300mg of Neurontin which seems to curb the irritability related to the Lamictal and may act synergistically. I've been up and down on the Lam (highest dose was 600mg. Honestly sometimes I think a lower dose works better than a higher dose. I still haven't figured out the Prozac piece. It seems to cycle for me, but then sometimes I think it is helpful in small doses.
>
> Last weekend I took a med vacation because the effect had faded out to a large degree. I took 4 days off and restarted the LAM and Neurontin and the effect kicked in much better. One thing about Lam is that I notice effects about an hour after taking- great increase in energy and good improvement in mood. The only problem is that the effect fades in the afternoon. After my med vacation the effect has not been fading as much.
>
> Have you tried taking small vacations? I'm think that I might take 2 days off per week (maybe when I can afford to be in a lousy mood)
>
> Love to hear how things go for you and trade experiences.
>
> Peter
>
>Hi there Pete,
Yeah, we seem to be tinkering with much the same meds and zigzagging down (up?) the same path!
I liked Neurontin too, but I found that I was experiencing some wierd effects from it- irritability the following day, and some dissociative stuff too, so I binned it.Too risky for me.
Lamictal is a strange ol' med though, I'd agree.Total lifesaver, but so hard to fathom.
I'm back at 250mg now, and the effects are more consistent with Prozac, which I can now tolerate at 20mg on alternate days, with zero side-effects!!That much is true of Lamictal at least.
I think that Lamictal basically needs to be augmented, full-stop.It is prone to fading, but it seems to perform much better with a little outside help.
Gonna try adding lithium soon, as they seem to complement one another-for some.Next in line would be a small dose of Valproate, or maybe Trileptal, whilst keeping the Prozac in the mix.
I'm prepared to mess around with a few AD's if necessary, as they're much easier to tolerate with Lamictal.Will keep you posted.Keep well, and keep us informed.
Col.
ps...med vacations don't work for me at all, unfortunately.
Posted by colin wallace on April 13, 2003, at 14:00:35
In reply to Re: Colin- your lamictal » Peter S., posted by colin wallace on April 13, 2003, at 13:57:39
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 15, 2003, at 18:12:30
In reply to Re: DHEA Trial » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on April 10, 2003, at 10:01:54
> > I have come down suddenly with a nasty virus, and I feel like hell. How I feel is obviously tainted by uncontrolled variables. Today's report is cancelled.
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> So sorry that you feel poorly. Thanks for posting. Get well ASAP!Your good wishes were insufficient. I just got home from the hospital. I have pneumonia. See ya all later.
Lar
Posted by noa on April 15, 2003, at 20:24:48
In reply to Re: Virus update, posted by Larry Hoover on April 15, 2003, at 18:12:30
Larry, best wishes--be well soon!
Posted by Ron Hill on April 15, 2003, at 20:29:30
In reply to Re: Virus update, posted by Larry Hoover on April 15, 2003, at 18:12:30
> Your good wishes were insufficient. I just got home from the hospital. I have pneumonia. See ya all later.
Shoot. Sorry to hear it Larry. I wish there was something I could do to get you well.That guy at the corner restaurant must have sold me a bum batch of chicken soup. He guaranteed it would work.
-- Ron
Posted by Jonathan on April 15, 2003, at 21:57:33
In reply to Re: Virus update, posted by Larry Hoover on April 15, 2003, at 18:12:30
Posted by Jota on June 1, 2003, at 9:33:55
In reply to Re: Cortisol and DHEA Balance, posted by jrbecker on April 7, 2003, at 16:09:26
I am considering testosterone supplementation (probably AndoGel). Might it make sense to try DHEA supplementation first?
> Just to add further confusion to the debate, I have used both pregnenolone and DHEA as daily supplements for atypical symptoms. I find that pregnenolone is much more potent than DHEA at equal dosages. Not sure why, but perhaps it's because pregnenolone is not only used to manufacture DHEA but also produce cortisol. Since I'm an atypical case, I don't believe Preg has a damaging effect on my depression due to its cortisol connection. Both preg and DHEA have been tested for its AD effects and have been found to be moderately helpful. However, it seems the preference is towards DHEA in most of the literature, and seems like the safer bet. In terms of dosages, when I first started taking it, I saw great benefits from 50mg or more. But after a couple of weeks, it seems that the effects had built up in my system and I had to keep lowering my dose because of increased anxiety/agitation. Dr. Sahelian has written something to this build-up effect, saying that it takes a little time to see the full effectiveness of low dosages. Now, I only use 2 mg of pregnenolone 2-3 x per week. Part of the reason why such a low dose works is b/c of the build-up effect I mentioned, but also because I recently started up Remeron again. It's my belief that alpha-2 antagonism of the med is synergizing with the effect Pregnenolone, DHEA and its metablites have on alpha-2 receptors. So two mentions of warning: 1) if you're taking DHEA or Preg, beware of the build-up effect over the first few weeks. If you are experiencing any increased anxiety, agitation, or hostility, you should probably lower the dose. 2) If you are taking any med that has adrenergic effects, it will synergize with the effects of the DHEA or pregnenonolone -- (e.g. Serzone and Remeron... and this list might also flag SNRIs like Effexor, NARIs like Strattera, MAOIs, TCAs, and Stims)
>
>
>
>
Posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 11:22:06
In reply to Re: Cortisol and DHEA Balance » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on April 7, 2003, at 13:46:12
Regarding pregnenalone and DHEA, please get your levels tested before taking. These are powerful hormones and you do not want to take too much. Let me tell you about my experience with them and what happened. I was tested by a naturopath and found to have very low DHEA levels. I started taking 10mg. Women need much less because of the potential conversion to testosterone. Didn't feel much different so gradually got up to 50mg, taking for about 6 months. Acne and jitters, but more energy at least, but still not feeling right. Thinking to balance all my hormones with 'the mother hormone', I then started taking pregnenalone at very small amounts. Shortly afterwards I began having breakthrough bleeding. Eventually I got alarmed and went to a gynocologist who detected a pre-cancerous buildup in the endometrium of my uterus. Caused by too much estrogen. I was already taking natural estrogen and progesterone for menopause, but the pregnenalone tipped the scales.
Pregnenalone does not deliver a standardized dose of any one hormone for which it supposedly is the 'mother'. Sometimes too much estrogen, and usually the dangerous kind, estrone, is affected rather randomly. It apparently is not very accurate in it's target. Too much DHEA can exacerbate anger, irritability, manic symptoms. The oily acne prone skin is not fun either. Not saying don't take them, but please have great respect for any hormone or hormonal precursor. It's too easy to mis-dose and effects are potent and can throw off your entire hormonal system - BarbaraCat.
Posted by Jota on June 2, 2003, at 20:41:05
In reply to Re: Cortisol and DHEA Balance, posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 11:22:06
Barbara,
Thanks for sharing your experience. Hope things are getting better.
Jota
Posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 22:48:34
In reply to Re: Cortisol and DHEA Balance, posted by Jota on June 2, 2003, at 20:41:05
Thanks Jota, yes things are better in that I had to go off all hormones to get my endometrium normal again. Back on much lower dosages of estrogen and increased progesterone. I was hot flashing like crazy for a few months and very irascible.
One neglected aspect in all of the mood disorder discussion is the part hormones play. Most doctors are simply clueless about the delicate balance and the individual needs of hormones on our bodies. The party line is to prescribe the formulary synthetics which cause more problems than not. Sex hormones, thyroid hormones, cortisol stimulating hormones, prolactin, melatonin, etc. Any one of these systems gets off kilter and wow, do we feel it. We're a far way from putting all the puzzle pieces together, but this is one area no one seems to be looking at very seriously. It's really a no-brainer but the medical/psychiatric community is not ready or able to address it yet. -BarbaraCat
> Thanks for sharing your experience. Hope things are getting better.
>
> Jota
Posted by Ritch on June 3, 2003, at 12:41:18
In reply to Re: Cortisol and DHEA Balance, posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 11:22:06
>.... Too much DHEA can exacerbate anger, irritability, manic symptoms. The oily acne prone skin is not fun either. Not saying don't take them, but please have great respect for any hormone or hormonal precursor. It's too easy to mis-dose and effects are potent and can throw off your entire hormonal system - BarbaraCat.
Barb, it's interesting that you posted that. I tried some DHEA once (just a "standard" dose), and I got rather irritable and wacky on it. Also, I've always had troubles with acne breakouts and very oily skin. Wondering if I will have acne in my 60's! It seems to be worse when I'm experiencing manic symptoms... BTW, my endo didn't recommend DHEA supps in men over 40-he said there was an increased risk of prostate cancer.
Posted by Barbara Cat on June 3, 2003, at 13:01:50
In reply to Re: Cortisol and DHEA Balance » Barbara Cat, posted by Ritch on June 3, 2003, at 12:41:18
Thanks for mentioning that about men. My husband has been taking it and he's over 40. I've also noticed that when I'm revving my skin is oilier. Interesting. That makes me think maybe there's something going on hormonally that's affecting our nervous system. One good thing I can say about oily skin. I've had it all my life and am finally glad I did. I'm in my early 50's and have no wrinkles. Oh, the occasional zit now and then, but hey, it's a fair trade.
> >.... Too much DHEA can exacerbate anger, irritability, manic symptoms. The oily acne prone skin is not fun either. Not saying don't take them, but please have great respect for any hormone or hormonal precursor. It's too easy to mis-dose and effects are potent and can throw off your entire hormonal system - BarbaraCat.
>
> Barb, it's interesting that you posted that. I tried some DHEA once (just a "standard" dose), and I got rather irritable and wacky on it. Also, I've always had troubles with acne breakouts and very oily skin. Wondering if I will have acne in my 60's! It seems to be worse when I'm experiencing manic symptoms... BTW, my endo didn't recommend DHEA supps in men over 40-he said there was an increased risk of prostate cancer.
>
>
Posted by Ritch on June 3, 2003, at 23:02:42
In reply to Re: Cortisol and DHEA Balance » Ritch, posted by Barbara Cat on June 3, 2003, at 13:01:50
Yep, I feel certain that it is a neuro-endocrine problem at bottom and that further research into the hormonal "transmitters" associated with the neuro-endocrine system will reveal a mechanism that links it. Anytime they find something that works (a med), there ultimately (with enough time) is a very, very complex cascade of mechanisms going on in the background to account for it. I've got an information processing theory about it-but I think that even that is linked to the neuroendocrine system somehow.
> Thanks for mentioning that about men. My husband has been taking it and he's over 40. I've also noticed that when I'm revving my skin is oilier. Interesting. That makes me think maybe there's something going on hormonally that's affecting our nervous system. One good thing I can say about oily skin. I've had it all my life and am finally glad I did. I'm in my early 50's and have no wrinkles. Oh, the occasional zit now and then, but hey, it's a fair trade.
>
> > >.... Too much DHEA can exacerbate anger, irritability, manic symptoms. The oily acne prone skin is not fun either. Not saying don't take them, but please have great respect for any hormone or hormonal precursor. It's too easy to mis-dose and effects are potent and can throw off your entire hormonal system - BarbaraCat.
> >
> > Barb, it's interesting that you posted that. I tried some DHEA once (just a "standard" dose), and I got rather irritable and wacky on it. Also, I've always had troubles with acne breakouts and very oily skin. Wondering if I will have acne in my 60's! It seems to be worse when I'm experiencing manic symptoms... BTW, my endo didn't recommend DHEA supps in men over 40-he said there was an increased risk of prostate cancer.
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Barbara Cat on June 4, 2003, at 0:36:12
In reply to Re: Cortisol and DHEA Balance » Barbara Cat, posted by Ritch on June 3, 2003, at 23:02:42
I'd like to hear about your neuro-endocrine information processing theory. Having been a programmer and sytems analyst I would probably find it relevant. I've doing much research on reproductive hormones, wanting to understand and be proactive in my menopausal care. It's pretty amazing, the stuff we never hear about. Such as estrogen, in men and women, being crucial in the serotonin cascade. Progesterone as a GABA agonist, with insufficiency causing classic anxiety and panic disorder symptoms. The necessity of estrogen to 'prime' testosterone receptors. And then there's thyroid, which is affected by estrogen and on and on ad infinitum. So much to know. What's frustrating is that psych and endocrine specialists are obviously not communicating to each other. When I mention such things to my various docs they look mildly interested and and say things like 'hmmm, really?'.
> Yep, I feel certain that it is a neuro-endocrine problem at bottom and that further research into the hormonal "transmitters" associated with the neuro-endocrine system will reveal a mechanism that links it. Anytime they find something that works (a med), there ultimately (with enough time) is a very, very complex cascade of mechanisms going on in the background to account for it. I've got an information processing theory about it-but I think that even that is linked to the neuroendocrine system somehow.
>
>
> > Thanks for mentioning that about men. My husband has been taking it and he's over 40. I've also noticed that when I'm revving my skin is oilier. Interesting. That makes me think maybe there's something going on hormonally that's affecting our nervous system. One good thing I can say about oily skin. I've had it all my life and am finally glad I did. I'm in my early 50's and have no wrinkles. Oh, the occasional zit now and then, but hey, it's a fair trade.
> >
> > > >.... Too much DHEA can exacerbate anger, irritability, manic symptoms. The oily acne prone skin is not fun either. Not saying don't take them, but please have great respect for any hormone or hormonal precursor. It's too easy to mis-dose and effects are potent and can throw off your entire hormonal system - BarbaraCat.
> > >
> > > Barb, it's interesting that you posted that. I tried some DHEA once (just a "standard" dose), and I got rather irritable and wacky on it. Also, I've always had troubles with acne breakouts and very oily skin. Wondering if I will have acne in my 60's! It seems to be worse when I'm experiencing manic symptoms... BTW, my endo didn't recommend DHEA supps in men over 40-he said there was an increased risk of prostate cancer.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Ritch on June 4, 2003, at 9:55:33
In reply to Re: Cortisol and DHEA Balance » Ritch, posted by Barbara Cat on June 4, 2003, at 0:36:12
Oh, the "theory" I was thinking of doesn't involve the neuro-endocrine system directly. I was thinking of an information processing theory to explain mood swings that involves how the brain processes sense-data and utilizes memory. It seems that bipolar for me is an "energy-management" problem (as one poster put it). Also, the ease with which your brain can get tangential with thoughts when you are manic and how you can also get hyperfocused and productive tells me there is some kind of "hyper-associativity" that has to involve memory/retrieval. Somehow that state needs to be self-limiting for some reason. I liken it to series of "phantom processes" that are running simultaneously putting a demand on your memory resources, until it gets "used up" somehow. When that happens you "crash" and experience memory problems and cognitive deficits until the process "rights itself" or reaches a new equilibrium. Just speculating! :)
> I'd like to hear about your neuro-endocrine information processing theory. Having been a programmer and sytems analyst I would probably find it relevant. I've doing much research on reproductive hormones, wanting to understand and be proactive in my menopausal care. It's pretty amazing, the stuff we never hear about. Such as estrogen, in men and women, being crucial in the serotonin cascade. Progesterone as a GABA agonist, with insufficiency causing classic anxiety and panic disorder symptoms. The necessity of estrogen to 'prime' testosterone receptors. And then there's thyroid, which is affected by estrogen and on and on ad infinitum. So much to know. What's frustrating is that psych and endocrine specialists are obviously not communicating to each other. When I mention such things to my various docs they look mildly interested and and say things like 'hmmm, really?'.
>
> > Yep, I feel certain that it is a neuro-endocrine problem at bottom and that further research into the hormonal "transmitters" associated with the neuro-endocrine system will reveal a mechanism that links it. Anytime they find something that works (a med), there ultimately (with enough time) is a very, very complex cascade of mechanisms going on in the background to account for it. I've got an information processing theory about it-but I think that even that is linked to the neuroendocrine system somehow.
> >
> >
> > > Thanks for mentioning that about men. My husband has been taking it and he's over 40. I've also noticed that when I'm revving my skin is oilier. Interesting. That makes me think maybe there's something going on hormonally that's affecting our nervous system. One good thing I can say about oily skin. I've had it all my life and am finally glad I did. I'm in my early 50's and have no wrinkles. Oh, the occasional zit now and then, but hey, it's a fair trade.
> > >
> > > > >.... Too much DHEA can exacerbate anger, irritability, manic symptoms. The oily acne prone skin is not fun either. Not saying don't take them, but please have great respect for any hormone or hormonal precursor. It's too easy to mis-dose and effects are potent and can throw off your entire hormonal system - BarbaraCat.
> > > >
> > > > Barb, it's interesting that you posted that. I tried some DHEA once (just a "standard" dose), and I got rather irritable and wacky on it. Also, I've always had troubles with acne breakouts and very oily skin. Wondering if I will have acne in my 60's! It seems to be worse when I'm experiencing manic symptoms... BTW, my endo didn't recommend DHEA supps in men over 40-he said there was an increased risk of prostate cancer.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Barbara Cat on June 5, 2003, at 1:16:36
In reply to Re: Cortisol and DHEA Balance » Barbara Cat, posted by Ritch on June 4, 2003, at 9:55:33
That's pretty interesting. When you get more hits about it,I'd be real interested in hearing them. I feel that bipolar is an electrical dysfunction rather than chemical. Something is aggravating the excitatory potential or NMDA. It could be a neurotoxin ingested like aspartame. I also feel that there's a malfunction in the off switch like you mentioned. Perhaps dopamine is getting pumped out like crazy. There's definitely that phase of hyperfocus and energy that's like amphetamines. It feels great but it spins further out of control. The only way from there is a massive burn out crash, maybe serotonin gets clobbered by dopamine. But that suggests a chemical thing and bipolar isn't helped by SSRIs in the least. Oh well, speculation is fun.
> Oh, the "theory" I was thinking of doesn't involve the neuro-endocrine system directly. I was thinking of an information processing theory to explain mood swings that involves how the brain processes sense-data and utilizes memory. It seems that bipolar for me is an "energy-management" problem (as one poster put it). Also, the ease with which your brain can get tangential with thoughts when you are manic and how you can also get hyperfocused and productive tells me there is some kind of "hyper-associativity" that has to involve memory/retrieval. Somehow that state needs to be self-limiting for some reason. I liken it to series of "phantom processes" that are running simultaneously putting a demand on your memory resources, until it gets "used up" somehow. When that happens you "crash" and experience memory problems and cognitive deficits until the process "rights itself" or reaches a new equilibrium. Just speculating! :)
>
>
> > I'd like to hear about your neuro-endocrine information processing theory. Having been a programmer and sytems analyst I would probably find it relevant. I've doing much research on reproductive hormones, wanting to understand and be proactive in my menopausal care. It's pretty amazing, the stuff we never hear about. Such as estrogen, in men and women, being crucial in the serotonin cascade. Progesterone as a GABA agonist, with insufficiency causing classic anxiety and panic disorder symptoms. The necessity of estrogen to 'prime' testosterone receptors. And then there's thyroid, which is affected by estrogen and on and on ad infinitum. So much to know. What's frustrating is that psych and endocrine specialists are obviously not communicating to each other. When I mention such things to my various docs they look mildly interested and and say things like 'hmmm, really?'.
> >
> > > Yep, I feel certain that it is a neuro-endocrine problem at bottom and that further research into the hormonal "transmitters" associated with the neuro-endocrine system will reveal a mechanism that links it. Anytime they find something that works (a med), there ultimately (with enough time) is a very, very complex cascade of mechanisms going on in the background to account for it. I've got an information processing theory about it-but I think that even that is linked to the neuroendocrine system somehow.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Thanks for mentioning that about men. My husband has been taking it and he's over 40. I've also noticed that when I'm revving my skin is oilier. Interesting. That makes me think maybe there's something going on hormonally that's affecting our nervous system. One good thing I can say about oily skin. I've had it all my life and am finally glad I did. I'm in my early 50's and have no wrinkles. Oh, the occasional zit now and then, but hey, it's a fair trade.
> > > >
> > > > > >.... Too much DHEA can exacerbate anger, irritability, manic symptoms. The oily acne prone skin is not fun either. Not saying don't take them, but please have great respect for any hormone or hormonal precursor. It's too easy to mis-dose and effects are potent and can throw off your entire hormonal system - BarbaraCat.
> > > > >
> > > > > Barb, it's interesting that you posted that. I tried some DHEA once (just a "standard" dose), and I got rather irritable and wacky on it. Also, I've always had troubles with acne breakouts and very oily skin. Wondering if I will have acne in my 60's! It seems to be worse when I'm experiencing manic symptoms... BTW, my endo didn't recommend DHEA supps in men over 40-he said there was an increased risk of prostate cancer.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Ritch on June 5, 2003, at 9:38:06
In reply to Re: Cortisol and DHEA Balance » Ritch, posted by Barbara Cat on June 5, 2003, at 1:16:36
I also agree about the electrical dysfunction you talk about. Antimanics like lithium, Tegretol, and Depakote do act on ion channels (primarily sodium). I am curious about how this all manifests itself in a cognitively *functional* way. IOW, how does a "normal" mind/brain process sense-data, store it, retrieve it, form ideas, etc., and how is it *different* when someone is bipolar?
> That's pretty interesting. When you get more hits about it,I'd be real interested in hearing them. I feel that bipolar is an electrical dysfunction rather than chemical. Something is aggravating the excitatory potential or NMDA. It could be a neurotoxin ingested like aspartame. I also feel that there's a malfunction in the off switch like you mentioned. Perhaps dopamine is getting pumped out like crazy. There's definitely that phase of hyperfocus and energy that's like amphetamines. It feels great but it spins further out of control. The only way from there is a massive burn out crash, maybe serotonin gets clobbered by dopamine. But that suggests a chemical thing and bipolar isn't helped by SSRIs in the least. Oh well, speculation is fun.
>
> > Oh, the "theory" I was thinking of doesn't involve the neuro-endocrine system directly. I was thinking of an information processing theory to explain mood swings that involves how the brain processes sense-data and utilizes memory. It seems that bipolar for me is an "energy-management" problem (as one poster put it). Also, the ease with which your brain can get tangential with thoughts when you are manic and how you can also get hyperfocused and productive tells me there is some kind of "hyper-associativity" that has to involve memory/retrieval. Somehow that state needs to be self-limiting for some reason. I liken it to series of "phantom processes" that are running simultaneously putting a demand on your memory resources, until it gets "used up" somehow. When that happens you "crash" and experience memory problems and cognitive deficits until the process "rights itself" or reaches a new equilibrium. Just speculating! :)
> >
> >
> > > I'd like to hear about your neuro-endocrine information processing theory. Having been a programmer and sytems analyst I would probably find it relevant. I've doing much research on reproductive hormones, wanting to understand and be proactive in my menopausal care. It's pretty amazing, the stuff we never hear about. Such as estrogen, in men and women, being crucial in the serotonin cascade. Progesterone as a GABA agonist, with insufficiency causing classic anxiety and panic disorder symptoms. The necessity of estrogen to 'prime' testosterone receptors. And then there's thyroid, which is affected by estrogen and on and on ad infinitum. So much to know. What's frustrating is that psych and endocrine specialists are obviously not communicating to each other. When I mention such things to my various docs they look mildly interested and and say things like 'hmmm, really?'.
> > >
> > > > Yep, I feel certain that it is a neuro-endocrine problem at bottom and that further research into the hormonal "transmitters" associated with the neuro-endocrine system will reveal a mechanism that links it. Anytime they find something that works (a med), there ultimately (with enough time) is a very, very complex cascade of mechanisms going on in the background to account for it. I've got an information processing theory about it-but I think that even that is linked to the neuroendocrine system somehow.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks for mentioning that about men. My husband has been taking it and he's over 40. I've also noticed that when I'm revving my skin is oilier. Interesting. That makes me think maybe there's something going on hormonally that's affecting our nervous system. One good thing I can say about oily skin. I've had it all my life and am finally glad I did. I'm in my early 50's and have no wrinkles. Oh, the occasional zit now and then, but hey, it's a fair trade.
> > > > >
> > > > > > >.... Too much DHEA can exacerbate anger, irritability, manic symptoms. The oily acne prone skin is not fun either. Not saying don't take them, but please have great respect for any hormone or hormonal precursor. It's too easy to mis-dose and effects are potent and can throw off your entire hormonal system - BarbaraCat.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Barb, it's interesting that you posted that. I tried some DHEA once (just a "standard" dose), and I got rather irritable and wacky on it. Also, I've always had troubles with acne breakouts and very oily skin. Wondering if I will have acne in my 60's! It seems to be worse when I'm experiencing manic symptoms... BTW, my endo didn't recommend DHEA supps in men over 40-he said there was an increased risk of prostate cancer.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Ron Hill on June 5, 2003, at 10:21:21
In reply to Re: Cortisol and DHEA Balance, posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 11:22:06
Hi Barbcat (a kinder and gentler cousin of the Montana Bobcat),
Thanks for sharing your experience taking DHEA and preg. As usual, your post was informative and easy to read.
> Regarding pregnenalone and DHEA, please get your levels tested before taking. These are powerful hormones and you do not want to take too much.
This is the same conclusion I've come to as well. Given the fact that DHEA levels decline dramatically as we age, the temptation is for me to help Mother Nature out and supplement my DHEA intake. The problem is the biochemical reaction pathways are complicated and convoluted. In other words, if I were to artificially raise my DHEA levels using supplements, I may end up unintentionally altering the levels of other hormones all with unknown health consequences. The bottom line is that I don't know enough about the hormonal system to start mucking around with it. Perhaps a very low dosage, say around 5 mg/day, is safe but I don't know.
> Let me tell you about my experience with them and what happened. I was tested by a naturopath and found to have very low DHEA levels. I started taking 10mg. Women need much less because of the potential conversion to testosterone.
Just out of curiosity, does DHEA supplementation raise the female sex drive (due to increased testosterone)? No need to answer if my question is too personal. My wife asked me about it some time ago and I told her that I think it probably does.
> Eventually I got alarmed and went to a gynocologist who detected a pre-cancerous buildup in the endometrium of my uterus. Caused by too much estrogen. I was already taking natural estrogen and progesterone for menopause, but the pregnenalone tipped the scales.
Barb, what makes you think it was the pregnenalone that tipped the scale and not something already in the works caused by the HRT (estrogen and progesterone)?
> It's too easy to mis-dose and effects are potent and can throw off your entire hormonal system.Is it just me, or does it seem ironic that, on the one hand, medications are so strictly regulated in the U.S., and yet on the other hand, I can march right down to the corner store and buy all the DHEA and pregnenalone I want?
-- Ron
Posted by Barbara Cat on June 6, 2003, at 1:46:16
In reply to Re: Cortisol and DHEA Balance » Barbara Cat, posted by Ron Hill on June 5, 2003, at 10:21:21
> Hi Barbcat (a kinder and gentler cousin of the Montana Bobcat)
Hey, I like that. I can be an Oregon Barbcat.
> Just out of curiosity, does DHEA supplementation raise the female sex drive (due to increased testosterone)? No need to answer if my question is too personal. My wife asked me about it some time ago and I told her that I think it probably does.
>
I don't recall any unusually incendiary sex while taking it. Boy, do I wish!> Barb, what makes you think it was the pregnenalone that tipped the scale and not something already in the works caused by the HRT (estrogen and progesterone)?
Everything seemed to be OK until I started pregnenolone. It also happened once before. Started bleeding, stopped taking it and bleeding stopped. I've read that preg can be indiscriminating in the hormones it targets and is known to sometimes raise levels of estrone, the most potent kind of estrogen which can cause thickening in the uterine lining. It might also just be the way I metabolize estrogen. There's a condition called 'estrogen dominance' that's getting a lot of press lately. We're also getting bombarded with toxins in our environment that are hormone disruptors, and estrogen dominance is one of the results. In fact, in a study of Florida freshwater acquatic life, the males of the species were morphing into females and they attributed it to chlorine compounds. So maybe guys are gonna one day have to start checking THEIR breasts for lumps!
>
> Is it just me, or does it seem ironic that, on the one hand, medications are so strictly regulated in the U.S., and yet on the other hand, I can march right down to the corner store and buy all the DHEA and pregnenalone I want?
>
It's illegal in Canada but I'd hate to see more government regulations in the US on anything. I know what you mean, though. I think DHEA is probably a good thing if you get your levels tested prior and then monitor it. What I'd like to see are inexpensive home tests that let us check our hormones. It would be nice to start taking back more control over our own healthcare. I'm seeing more home saliva tests sold on the internet but they're not cheap. Suggestions on safe dosages I've heard is 25mg for men over 40 and women 5-10mg.
Posted by Neal on June 7, 2003, at 22:34:34
In reply to Re: Cortisol and DHEA Balance » Ron Hill, posted by Barbara Cat on June 6, 2003, at 1:46:16
I was taking 100mg DHEA last year. It made me feel confident and very "male". After a few weeks, I started having trouble going to sleep and I discontinued use. I think the problem was too high a dose. DHEA was the only thing I had ever taken which increased my sex drive. I have just started again and am taking 25mg right now as an experiment. I have noticed a slight increase in confidence and clarity. I have depression and dysthymia.
By the way, that tranquili-g seems pretty OK.-Neal
Posted by jrbecker on June 10, 2003, at 9:55:23
In reply to My experience with DHEA, posted by Neal on June 7, 2003, at 22:34:34
Disappointing Data Confound Claims For DHEA Effectiveness
Jim Rosack
In a small pilot study, DHEA doesn’t look promising as a treatment for Alzheimer’s disease, regardless of widespread claims that the neurosteroid has far-reaching neuroprotective effects.
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) does not significantly improve cognitive performance or overall ratings of change in severity of Alzheimer’s disease, according to a small-scale pilot study.
DHEA and its sulfate metabolite, DHEA-S, are the most abundant adrenal and gonadal steroids found in humans. Also synthesized in brain tissue, they are often referred to as "neurosteroids" and are known to bind to N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptors as well as gamma-amino-butyric acid type A (GABA-A) receptors. Previous laboratory and animal studies had yielded some evidence that DHEA may provide neuroprotection by decreasing oxidative stress and blocking excitatory neurotoxicity, as well as blocking corticosteroid-induced neuronal damage. In addition, some preliminary clinical trials with DHEA have indicated that it may have antidepressant qualities. Lastly, DHEA has also been associated with increased levels of hippocampal release of acetylcholine, known to be important in memory.
"We know that as we age, levels of DHEA begin to fall after about age 20 or so," said the current study’s lead author, Owen Wolkowitz, M.D., a professor of psychiatry at the University of California at San Francisco. "And by about age 65, those levels have fallen to 10 to 20 percent of those found in healthy young adults. Because of preclinical studies linking DHEA to neuroprotective effects and animal studies showing that higher levels of DHEA improve memory, we wanted to look at what effect the hormone would have in clinically diagnosed Alzheimer’s patients."
Wolkowitz and his colleagues conducted a multisite, double-blind, placebo-controlled study of DHEA in 58 patients with Alzheimer’s over six months.
"The patients we studied were not allowed to be on any other drugs—cholinesterase inhibitors, and so on—that could confound the results, so that limited our patient population," Wolkowitz told Psychiatric News. Patients who were receiving any other steroid, including estrogen, were also excluded, as were patients with severe dementia (those with a Mini-Mental State Exam score of less than eight).
Twenty-eight patients were blindly chosen to receive 50 mg of DHEA twice a day for six months, and 30 patients received an identical-looking placebo. The dose of DHEA, Wolkowtiz said, was targeted to achieve blood levels of the hormone at or slightly above the top of the normal range of DHEA levels found in healthy young adults.
"Although we weren’t thinking that an age-dependent decline in DHEA was directly tied to the pathology of Alzheimer’s," Wolkowitz said, "we hypothesized that perhaps by boosting levels of the hormone back up to those seen when people are young and healthy, we might be able to harness some of the hormone’s inherent neuroprotective effects."
The main outcome variables were the Alzheimer’s Disease Assessment Scale-Cognitive (ADAS-Cog) and the Clinician’s Interview Based Impression of Change With Caregiver Input (CIBIC-Plus).
"What we saw was that numerically, DHEA did have a benefit on cognitive ratings, but overall, on the CIBIC-Plus, there was no significant benefit shown," Wolkowotz said. Specifically, Wolkowitz and his colleagues showed that at three months, the DHEA group, compared with placebo, showed a trend toward improvement on the ADAS-Cog, but the improvement only narrowly missed being statistically significant. On the CIBIC-Plus, no significant differences were noted between the DHEA and the placebo group.
"Obviously we were limited on the number of patients we were looking at, so that limited our statistical power," Wolkowitz told Psychiatric News. "But also, DHEA may simply not be effective as a stand-alone agent in Alzheimer’s."
Wolkowitz and his fellow investigators want to follow up these preliminary results with a larger study, potentially looking at the use of DHEA as an adjunct medication with a cholinesterase inhibitor like donepezil. In addition Wolkowitz would like to study DHEA’s reported antiglucocorticoid effects. In particular, DHEA has been reported to reduce cortisol, the so-called "stress hormone," which in response to stress is released in large quantities that have been linked to neuronal stress and damage.
An abstract of "DHEA Treatment of Alzheimer’s Disease: A Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Study" is posted on the Web at www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/60/7/1071.
Posted by buddhi on February 15, 2004, at 21:40:16
In reply to My experience with DHEA, posted by Neal on June 7, 2003, at 22:34:34
> I was taking 100mg DHEA last year. It made me feel confident and very "male". After a few weeks, I started having trouble going to sleep and I discontinued use. I think the problem was too high a dose. DHEA was the only thing I had ever taken which increased my sex drive. I have just started again and am taking 25mg right now as an experiment. I have noticed a slight increase in confidence and clarity. I have depression and dysthymia.
> By the way, that tranquili-g seems pretty OK.
>
> -NealQuestion for ya neal what brand of dhea do you use or did you use???? You can email me at amy@pause.com or post your answer Thanks buddhi
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 16, 2004, at 17:52:35
In reply to Re: My experience with DHEA » Neal, posted by buddhi on February 15, 2004, at 21:40:16
> Question for ya neal what brand of dhea do you use or did you use????
I'd like to redirect this thread to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040110/msgs/314229.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Cairo on April 14, 2004, at 16:15:06
In reply to Larry, Ron, jrbecker, posted by McPac on April 8, 2003, at 16:24:42
I tried fifty sessions of neurofeedback with little effect. I have atypical depression and Fibromyalgia with lots of fatigue, so I'm kind of waiting for CRH potentiators to come along as I do not do well on SSRIs, and Neurontin and TCAs only have minimal effect. What I really need is 6 months away from everything! Don't we wish.
Cairo
> I scanned the long 22-page study and was already aware of Hans Selye's ideas. Larry asked, "So what can we do about that?"
> Have any of you read about and tried Skilled Relaxation Therapy? I'm not just talking about passively listening to a tape with seagulls and the ocean in the background but rather "skilled relaxation" (can be many forms but the desired effect is to reach certain theta, even delta, states which releases the built up stress in the hippocampus). Herbert Benson's book "The Relaxation Response" is about this very process. It's not only for short-term effect but for long-term as well. The ancient Chinese practiced this 1,000's of years ago (meditation). The key is to achieve the lowered brainwave states. I could go on and on, just wondering if any of you have tried it?
>
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.