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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Pfinstegg on May 16, 2003, at 14:22:01
How many of us have hypothyroidism? I would be so curious to know how many people with depression and/or anxiety have had their thyroid function investigated. Also, how many have been found to be slightly hypothyroid, and been given synthroid supplements? In addition, how many people have added T3 to the T4 they were taking? Has the T4 helped? Has the T3 helped further?
Maybe slight thyroid dysfunction is as common as cortisol dysregulation in depressive and anxiety disorders. Perhaps we should all be screened routinely for this at the onset of our symptoms. Love to know what everyone thinks, and what their experiences have been!
Pfinstegg
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on May 16, 2003, at 14:36:30
In reply to PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID!, posted by Pfinstegg on May 16, 2003, at 14:22:01
> How many of us have hypothyroidism? I would be so curious to know how many people with depression and/or anxiety have had their thyroid function investigated.
----------------I had mine checked last year, and it was overactive (hy*per*). If enhanced thyroid function is a good thing, I should be a lot happier (instead, I'm just very skinny and anxious).
Posted by Pfinstegg on May 16, 2003, at 14:54:31
In reply to Re: PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID!, posted by Eddie Sylvano on May 16, 2003, at 14:36:30
Did you get treated for hyperthyroidism, or was it not considered severe enough? Untreated high T3-4 levels could certainly account for a good part of the anxiety you are experiencing, I would think.
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on May 16, 2003, at 15:03:10
In reply to Re: PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID! » Eddie Sylvano, posted by Pfinstegg on May 16, 2003, at 14:54:31
> Did you get treated for hyperthyroidism, or was it not considered severe enough? Untreated high T3-4 levels could certainly account for a good part of the anxiety you are experiencing, I would think.
--------------The same thing occurred to me, but my doctor didn't seem to think it was important. It takes a lot to concern her.
Posted by Squiggles on May 16, 2003, at 15:08:57
In reply to PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID!, posted by Pfinstegg on May 16, 2003, at 14:22:01
Hi,
This subject has interested me for some time;
i have lithium-induced hypothyroidism. It's
tricky to synchronized it with the lithium.BTW, i have wondered if my thyroid had anything
to do with my initial manic depressive breakdown.
I can recall periods of wild weight fluctuations
in my teens as well as sleeping as long as 16 hrs.Interesting research on that i think; i saw
some work at McMaster University some time ago.
Squiggles(i am interested in joining the discussion)
Posted by Snoozy on May 16, 2003, at 15:10:11
In reply to Re: PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID! » Pfinstegg, posted by Eddie Sylvano on May 16, 2003, at 15:03:10
I've always been hypo-thyroid, but I have a family member recently diagnosed with hyper-thyroid. I would wonder about the anxiety too. Do you know what your thyroid levels are?
> > Did you get treated for hyperthyroidism, or was it not considered severe enough? Untreated high T3-4 levels could certainly account for a good part of the anxiety you are experiencing, I would think.
> --------------
>
> The same thing occurred to me, but my doctor didn't seem to think it was important. It takes a lot to concern her.
>
Posted by Snoozy on May 16, 2003, at 15:18:18
In reply to PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID!, posted by Pfinstegg on May 16, 2003, at 14:22:01
Hands up here for the hypothyroid club. I was diagnosed with it when I was a teenager. Which also happens to be when I had one of my worst episodes of depression....hmmmmm. I'll have to really try to remember this, and see if there might be some correlation.
I've always taken Synthroid, in varying doses. One interesting thing is that several years ago I was on the highest dose, full thyroid replacement level. But my thyroid actually started working by itself again, and my dosage came down. I think this might be unusual - my dr was puzzled.
I wonder what the incidence of hypothyroidism is in the "general" population? Very interesting topic, I'd love to know more about it.
> How many of us have hypothyroidism? I would be so curious to know how many people with depression and/or anxiety have had their thyroid function investigated. Also, how many have been found to be slightly hypothyroid, and been given synthroid supplements? In addition, how many people have added T3 to the T4 they were taking? Has the T4 helped? Has the T3 helped further?
>
> Maybe slight thyroid dysfunction is as common as cortisol dysregulation in depressive and anxiety disorders. Perhaps we should all be screened routinely for this at the onset of our symptoms. Love to know what everyone thinks, and what their experiences have been!
>
> Pfinstegg
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on May 16, 2003, at 16:06:50
In reply to Re: hyperthyroid » Eddie Sylvano, posted by Snoozy on May 16, 2003, at 15:10:11
> I've always been hypo-thyroid, but I have a family member recently diagnosed with hyper-thyroid. I would wonder about the anxiety too. Do you know what your thyroid levels are?
----------------I wasn't shown the values, just told that they were relatively high. My doctor essentially said that there wasn't any decent treatment for such a condition beyond radioactive iodine, after which you usually end up hypothyroid and have to take synthroid. She thinks it'll go down as I age.
It used to be a lot worse, I believe. I remember shaking and sweating with palpitations, half delerious. Not that bad lately.
Posted by Pfinstegg on May 16, 2003, at 23:46:52
In reply to Re: hyperthyroid, posted by Eddie Sylvano on May 16, 2003, at 16:06:50
It sounds like your doctor's clinical intuition was good, if your symptoms are gradually subsiding. Were you in your teens when they were at their worst?
Pfinstegg
Posted by Pfinstegg on May 16, 2003, at 23:54:23
In reply to Re: PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID! » Pfinstegg, posted by Snoozy on May 16, 2003, at 15:18:18
That's so interesting! As your thyroid levels became more normal, did your depression improve also? I have been informally following what people post here about their thyroid function for about nine months, but you are the first person that I know of whose thyroid got more normal on its own. Glad you posted that!
Pfinstegg
Posted by Pfinstegg on May 17, 2003, at 0:04:47
In reply to Re: PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID! » Pfinstegg, posted by Squiggles on May 16, 2003, at 15:08:57
What you were saying about your weight fluctuations and energy levels when you were a teenager do sound as if they could have been related to changes in thyroid levels; then, in addition, you now have lithium-induced hypothyroidism- another dimension to complcate things. Do you take just synthroid, or Cytomel as well? And do you have a specific TSH range that your doctor is aiming for?
Do you remember, just generally, what the research was at McMaster?
Pfinstegg
Posted by Squiggles on May 17, 2003, at 8:23:21
In reply to Re: PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID! » Squiggles, posted by Pfinstegg on May 17, 2003, at 0:04:47
Hi Pfinstegg,
The McMaster studies were done by a Dr. Joffe
and colleagues; they are studies relating
thyroid malfunction to bipolar disorder especially;
and i vaguely recall reading in the Kraeplin book
that thyroid was a suspect and that manic depression
very much seemed like a disorder of metabolism.If you are more interested i will look up the articles
when i have more time today;My thyroid level may have been high when i had
panic and anxiety - Synthroid was dropped from 0.155 to
the present 0.112 after a long story/crisis.Presently, i am hypo. but my dr. says it is only
sub-clinical - the numbers: last one recorded
TSH 5.960
FT4 10.07
Lithium 1.52 (i can't believe i'm reading this;
no wonder if felt sick - i am dropping one 1/3
every Sunday and feel better).Squiggles
Posted by noa on May 17, 2003, at 9:34:09
In reply to Re: PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID! » Pfinstegg, posted by Squiggles on May 17, 2003, at 8:23:21
Hypothyroid. Synthroid and Cytomel. Didn't start getting good results from ADs until hypothyroidism was treated aggressively.
BTW, see thyroid and depression folder (link at top of PB page). AND, please, ADD to the folder any NEW links you have!!! I haven't updated the folder in a very long time.
Posted by noa on May 17, 2003, at 9:38:01
In reply to Re: PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID!, posted by Eddie Sylvano on May 16, 2003, at 14:36:30
Eddie, you might find it helpful to read more about hyperthyroid at the about.com thyroid site. Mary Shomon provides a lot of good info.
My mom had hyperthyroid (and yes, apparently, hyper and hypo in same family can be connected). She took meds to control it, for about 2 years. Her doc wanted to avoid the radioactive iodine route. If the meds hadn't worked, that would have been the next step. But there are meds to treat it. However, if yours is just relatively high, that may be why your doctor is conservative? I don't know enough about the hyper end of things. But try the about.com site--it is sure to have good info.
Posted by Pfinstegg on May 17, 2003, at 9:49:53
In reply to Re: PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID! » Eddie Sylvano, posted by noa on May 17, 2003, at 9:38:01
What Noa and Squiggles said is completely new to me- that researchers suspect a strong connection between thyroid malfunction and bipolar disorder. The link were extremely helpful, also, although I haven't had time yet to explore them fully.
I have a unipolar depressive illness, but getting my TSH down to 0.38 using synthroid and Cytomel has been a big help, also.
Pfinstegg
Posted by Snoozy on May 17, 2003, at 9:53:39
In reply to PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID!, posted by Pfinstegg on May 16, 2003, at 14:22:01
Hi -
I was just catching up on the previous thread about thyroid. I happen to have my levels for the past 4 years, if you would find that of any interest.
uTSH 0.02
uTSH 0.05
uTSH 0.02
uTSH 0.03
uTSH <0.02
uTSH 0.049
ref range 0.47 to 5.01The earlier numbers are when my thyroid started its comeback - I was reducing Synthroid dose until the last reading. It's been a while since it was last checked, I'm having it done next month.
Posted by Squiggles on May 17, 2003, at 10:01:59
In reply to Re: PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID!, posted by noa on May 17, 2003, at 9:34:09
Sorry, i must have missed something --
where is the PB page?tx
Squiggles
Posted by Pfinstegg on May 17, 2003, at 10:06:47
In reply to Re: TSH numbers » Pfinstegg, posted by Snoozy on May 17, 2003, at 9:53:39
Thanks for posting your TSH numbers- this gives our informal survey a more scientific air! Seriously, though, they haven't gotten back to even low normal yet, have they? I hope you will continue posting this information as your TSH and replacement levels change. as well as whether you think those two values can be directly related to your moods. Just from these few posts, it's clear that the connection between bipolar illness and thyroid function is much more complex and important than I (for one) ever knew.
Posted by Squiggles on May 17, 2003, at 12:08:20
In reply to Re: PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID!, posted by Pfinstegg on May 17, 2003, at 9:49:53
It seems that Dr. Joffe's career has
propelled into a higher level - he is now
Dean of Psychiatry at McMaster and a philanthropist has
left tons of money for neurological research
to the university -
I'm moving to Hamilton, LOL!I found some of his early article titles which
i suppose are the foundational works, but there
are so many that i suggest you just do a
Google search. His work is now applied to
ajunct depression therapy, autism, and
treatment resistant depression; so i think he
has left the theoretical side of the role
of endocrinology (to my disappointment)
and worked on the practical, incl. the use of
SSRIs such as Effexor, nutritional aspects,
light therapy, etc., for depression treatment:(btw, i actually got an e-mail from the renown
Dr. Mogens Schou, answering my question on
endocrinology, and saying that the hormones
in the brain also has a great role to play
in mental illness - i was deeply humbled that
he wrote to me and should have bronzed the
e-mail, well, maybe electro-plated);
http://www.fhs.mcmaster.ca/psychiatryneuroscience/research/research/pub99/pub99.html
Squiggles
Posted by fanni on May 17, 2003, at 14:14:51
In reply to PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID!, posted by Pfinstegg on May 16, 2003, at 14:22:01
im meant to be going for a test for that hypothyroidism but i dunno if i can be arsed,whats the sympthoms?
Posted by Kari on May 17, 2003, at 14:49:20
In reply to PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID!, posted by Pfinstegg on May 16, 2003, at 14:22:01
I have suffered from hyperthyroidism in the past and mistaken it as a worsening of psychiatric problems (probably also a tendency for bipolar).
For years the symptoms have been more towards the hypo side. Now I am having strange symptoms of swelling and pain within the gland for several months , with shortness of breath and reflux problems. Has anyone experienced this?
Posted by Squiggles on May 17, 2003, at 15:43:14
In reply to Re: PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID!, posted by Kari on May 17, 2003, at 14:49:20
from "Manic Depressive Insanity and Paranoia"
by Emil Kraeplin of Munich (1856-1926), trans. by Barclay, ed. by
Robertson, Prof. at U. of Edinburgh.p. 48
Ch. III - BODILY SYMPTOMS
General State.-- Corresponding to the course of the body-weight
the general state of the patients usually experiences
striking changes. In the hypomanic periods the skin
acquires a fresh colour and tension; the movements
become elastic and vigorous; the scanty hair grows
afresh, even with renewed colour. In states of depression
on the contrary, the skin becomes pale, wrinkled, withered,
dry, rough; the eye becomes dull; the growth of nails
stops and becomes irregular, as Falcida has demonstrated;
the menses become scanty and intermittent; the secretion
of tears dries up; the whole being appears prematurely old.All these changes indicates that in manic-depressive
insanity marked [it] [DISORDERS OF METABOLISM] must
take place.......
p. 50Circulation--... Fairly frequenlty there are found murmurs
of the heart, extension of cardiac dullness, tendency to
congestion, erythemata, great perspiration, dermography.
In manic patients the face is often flushed, .....Not infrequently, one observes indications of
Basedow's phenomena, a soft [caps mine] SWELLING
OF THE THYROID GLAND with accelleration of the pulse,
tremor, and abundant perspiration, now and the also
occasional exophthalmos. Not at all infrequently and
in comparative youth arteriosclerosis is prsent.-----------------
The chapter on physical sympotms is worth reading
if compared to current physiological presentations
in bipolars is studied.Squiggles
Posted by noa on May 17, 2003, at 23:22:01
In reply to Re: PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID! » noa, posted by Squiggles on May 17, 2003, at 10:01:59
> Sorry, i must have missed something --
> where is the PB page?
>
> tx
>
> SquigglesWe're on it right now. PB=Psycho-babble
Sorry for not being clear.
Posted by cubbybear on May 18, 2003, at 4:50:16
In reply to PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID!, posted by Pfinstegg on May 16, 2003, at 14:22:01
My first post on this question never got onto the board. So I'll try again.
Several months ago, during a period of bad depression, I had to have a sample of blood tested for something else and decided that I might as well have a thyroid test done as well. The doctor phoned me a few days later and reported that my thyroid function was NORMAL.
Posted by Squiggles on May 18, 2003, at 8:13:48
In reply to Re: PLEASE JOIN PB INFORMAL STUDY ON THYROID!, posted by cubbybear on May 18, 2003, at 4:50:16
So, obviously in your case, a thyroid
malfunction is not necessarily related
to your depression. Nothing surprising
about that. I don't think there is only
one correlated physical symptom with
affective disorders in the med. literature.Squiggles
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