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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by disney4 on May 2, 2003, at 10:39:52
About 3 years ago a suffered from serotonin syndrome. I had taken Luvox and tegretol and they increased each others effects to a toxic level. I am already med sensitive, so I suufered an acute reaction. I could not unclench my jaw, my body was jerking and I had terrible chills. My Dr took me off those meds and put me on Klonopin for support. I am now on Neurontin and klonopin, plus some natural things like fish oil, but I am still having problems at night. My muscles feel tense and I have a lot of anxiety. I can fall asleep with the medication, but it takes a while and is a restless sleep many nights. I wonder if there is a way to correct any damage done to my serotonin receptors. Does anyone know?
Posted by disney4 on May 2, 2003, at 10:46:11
In reply to Serotonin receptors may be damaged-help, posted by disney4 on May 2, 2003, at 10:39:52
I just got this off of Web MD. Do you think it would work for me?......
Bedtime Snacks: a Great Alternative to Sleeping Pills
A high-carbohydrate snack, such as crackers and fruit or toast and jam, triggers the release of a brain chemical called serotonin, which aids sleep. And although the traditional glass of warm milk, a protein-rich beverage, probably doesn't affect serotonin levels, the warm liquid soothes and relaxes you and makes you feel full, which might help facilitate sleep.
A new product on the market called 5-Hydroxy-L-tryptophan, or 5-HTP, is touted as a building block for serotonin, which is a mood elevator, brain stimulant, and sleep enhancer. However, since its safety is questionable and no optimal dose has been established, you're better off raising serotonin levels naturally with high-carbohydrate snacks.
Posted by stjames on May 2, 2003, at 11:31:10
In reply to Re: Serotonin boosters, posted by disney4 on May 2, 2003, at 10:46:11
Unless you know what Serotonin syndrome
is, it is harmful to suggest Serotonin "boosters".
I guess you do not realize SS can be deadly, esp.
with Serotonin "boosters".Given that SS is still not understood and can be quite serious, I would consult with a doc that has ttreated it.
Posted by charlie12 on May 2, 2003, at 14:58:36
In reply to Re: Serotonin boosters, posted by disney4 on May 2, 2003, at 10:46:11
I would AVOID 5-HTP!
pls see the following:
==> A Word of Caution About 5-Hydroxytryptophan or 5-HTP
Taken from the Life Extension Foundation newsletter
The reasons for the potential risks of 5-HT were brought to our attention by Steven B Harris, M.D. He explained that: 5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HT) is one step closer to serotonin than tryptophan. The Sequence is as follows.
Tryptophan > 5-Hydroxytryptophan > Serotonin
Based on the above metabolic sequence it would appear desirable to use 5-HT instead of tryptophan since 5-HT more readily converts to serotonin. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that is often deficient in the brains of depressed people. Boosting serotonin can alleviate depression in some people and reduce carbohydrate cravings in others, thus inducing weight loss. Here's why 5-HT will not work for most Americans, and could be lethal to some people: The blood-brain barrier does not allow significant absorption of serotonin from the blood. The brain does have a large neutral amino acid pump that freely allows tryptophan and 5-HT into the bran for conversion into serotonin. The process by which 5-H is converted into serotonin is called decarboxylation. If decarboxylation occurs before 5-HT is absorbed by the brain, than blood levels of serotonin will elevate significantly, but very little serotonin will enter the brain. When Europeans take 5-HT, they are often prescribed the dopa decarboxylase inhibitor carbidopa that prevents 5-HT from being converted into serotonin until it reaches the brain. Americans do not take carbidopa with 5-HT and the result is possible serotonin overload in the blood, with virtually no serotonin reaching the brain. We will describe later the dangers of overloading the blood with serotonin. Americans taking 5-HT are more vulnerable to blood serotonin overload because, unlike most Europeans who are vitamin deficient, Americans who use 5-HT usually take large doses of vitamin B6 as well. Vitamin B6 rapidly converts 5-HT into serotonin before it can reach the brain. Even when combined with carbidopa, high levels of vitamin B6 will break through the carbidopa barrier and insure that 5-HT converts into serotonin in the blood before the it can reach the brain The multiple health benefits of vitamin B6 are too important, we believe, to recommend that people avoid taking vitamin B6 just to enable them to try using 5-HT to boost brain serotonin levels. This may be difficult anyway without also taking carbidopa, which is only available in the US. as a prescription drug. At the very best, those who take vitamin B6 with 5-HT are probably wasting their money. Unfortunately, high serotonin in the blood in not benign. Anyone suffering from heart disease should avoid 5-HT because the elevation in blood serotonin could cause coronary artery spasm an/or abnormal platelet aggregation, which are risk factors for sudden death heart attack. Here is the real frightening aspect of serotonin overload, as described by Dr. Harris: "Serotonin causes not only harmless flushing and diarrhea, but people with serotonin secreting tumors (hindgut carcinoids) also have problems with fibrosis of the endocardium and valves of their right hearts with can cause heart failure. The effect can also be seen with dietary intake of only modest amounts of serotonin, and there has actually been described in the medical literature, a tribe of South Sea islanders with right heart fibrosis as a result of eating green banana mush, which poisons them with its serotonin content" Dr. Harris goes on to state that people who ingest several hundred milligrams a day of 5-HT with B6 and without a decarboxylase inhibitor would expect to see urinary excretion of a serotonin metabolite in the same range as a person with a serotonin secreting tumor. Based upon Dr. Harris' report the Foundation had its analysts conduct an extensive review of the medical literature and have come to the following preliminary conclusions. 1) For 5-HT to boost serotonin levels in the brain it is necessary to: a)Take 50 mg of carbidopa before each 5-HT dose. Carbidopa is a prescription drug. b)Limit vitamin B6 supplementation to a small dose taken at least six hours before or after 5-HT carbidopa dosing. c) Have a urinary test to measure a metabolite of serotonin called 5-hydroxy indoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) on a regular basis. As long as 5-HIAA levels are normal, than 5-HT intake would be safe. 2) Those with existing cardiovascular disease, including atrial fibrillation, coronary artery disease, congestive heart failure, cardiomyopathy, valvular disease or pulmonary hypertension may want to avoid 5-HT completely. One Foundation analyst felt that 81 mg a day of aspirin and 500 mg a day of magnesium would reduce the risk of 5-HT inducing a heart attack. 3)The effects of 5-HT by itself elevating blood serotonin levels are extremely individualistic. Some people may not experience any blood serotonin increase, while others could suffer from a lethal serotonin peripheral overload. 4) Despite the potential dangers of 5-HT, most FDA-approved drugs to treat depression and obesity appear to be more toxic. 5) At the time of this printing, we have not been able to verify whether 5-HT induced serotonin overload would cause fibrosis of the aortic valve and destruction of the heart muscle. Based on the potential health risks of ingesting 5-HIT, Bio Recovery has decided not to offer it tat this time. we encourage anyone seeking to use 5-HT to follow strictly the above protocol for safe 5-HT supplementation. We'll post further evidence regarding 5-HTP as soon as it becomes available. This warning applies only to 5-hydroxy tryptophan (5-HT), not tryptophan itself. Published studies show that tryptophan does not readily convert into serotonin in the blood, but that 5-HT does, since 5-HT can convert directly into serotonin while tryptophan has to go through one additional metabolic step which protects against blood serotonin overload.
Posted by Caleb462 on May 2, 2003, at 15:34:09
In reply to Serotonin receptors may be damaged-help, posted by disney4 on May 2, 2003, at 10:39:52
> About 3 years ago a suffered from serotonin syndrome. I had taken Luvox and tegretol and they increased each others effects to a toxic level. I am already med sensitive, so I suufered an acute reaction. I could not unclench my jaw, my body was jerking and I had terrible chills. My Dr took me off those meds and put me on Klonopin for support. I am now on Neurontin and klonopin, plus some natural things like fish oil, but I am still having problems at night. My muscles feel tense and I have a lot of anxiety. I can fall asleep with the medication, but it takes a while and is a restless sleep many nights. I wonder if there is a way to correct any damage done to my serotonin receptors. Does anyone know?
I doubt a single case of serotonin syndrome would cause any long-term damage to the receptors... but it's possible I suppose
Posted by disney4 on May 2, 2003, at 21:47:46
In reply to Re: Serotonin receptors may be damaged-help, posted by Caleb462 on May 2, 2003, at 15:34:09
Thanx Caleb
I think you were the only one to see what I was getting at with the Serotonin boosters. I feel a lot better knowing that there probably isn't any long term damage. I am going to try the toast and jam idea, but I'm just too full to start it tonight.
Posted by stjames on May 3, 2003, at 0:48:05
In reply to Re: Serotonin receptors may be damaged-help » Caleb462, posted by disney4 on May 2, 2003, at 21:47:46
> I think you were the only one to see what I was getting at with the Serotonin boosters.
If you boost Serotonin you are risking SS again. You might want to read a bit about SS before you start adding stuff. Lots
of things to avoid. Given that SS effects the autonomic nervious system, don't play around. An autonomic system crisis can be deadly. No BP or tempature regulation, for starters, muscle rigidity, ect.Everything I read on SS says avoid all Serotonin
agents and things that effect it, like DMX,
or risk relapse.Seems you want to head in to other direction.
Till the blood/brain barrier can be passed and 5HT get to the cleft supplements for 5HT precusrsors are so much qwack. Unfortunatally
5HT will build up in blood and can be quite bad.Also, no one seem to mention the feed back loop
that means you pee off excess precursors, the amino acids being the one that comes to mind.
You pee them off for good reason, having too many
is not a good thing.If there is damage, ramming what you are missing
into the body is not going to work on a system this complex. At least until we can describe the entire system, completely. There is not proof
Serotonin site damage means the treatment is more
Serotonin. Ramming huge amounts (keep in mind
the body uses milla and nano levels of neurotransmitters) begs the question, how will it be regulated & given the one NT level effects
all others, how do you know how much to take ?
Remember, we don;t really know how much of each
NT a normal person should have, at least not in the sence we do know how much thyroid to give and can measure thyroid against norms at ml and nl levels.Also, the neurotransmitter deficency model of
mental illness was cast aside a decade ago.
It does not work. That is not to say NT's have nothing to do with mental illness.disney4, I too got your post. I know quite a bit
about SS, as I take 450 mgs of Effexor and 30 mgs
Remeron. I have to know about SS as very high doses of 5HT effecting AD's (Effexor is the higest)are the major cause of SS. Based on what I know, I saw you were thinmking for doing something dangerous. Given that you had SS in the past, I felt I had to warn you. Sorry you did not want to hear that.
Posted by disney4 on May 3, 2003, at 9:55:17
In reply to Re: Serotonin receptors may be damaged-help, posted by stjames on May 3, 2003, at 0:48:05
> > I think you were the only one to see what I was getting at with the Serotonin boosters.
>
> If you boost Serotonin you are risking SS again. You might want to read a bit about SS before you start adding stuff. Lots
> of things to avoid. Given that SS effects the autonomic nervious system, don't play around. An autonomic system crisis can be deadly. No BP or tempature regulation, for starters, muscle rigidity, ect.
>
> Everything I read on SS says avoid all Serotonin
> agents and things that effect it, like DMX,
> or risk relapse.
>
> Seems you want to head in to other direction.
>
> Till the blood/brain barrier can be passed and 5HT get to the cleft supplements for 5HT precusrsors are so much qwack. Unfortunatally
> 5HT will build up in blood and can be quite bad.
>
> Also, no one seem to mention the feed back loop
> that means you pee off excess precursors, the amino acids being the one that comes to mind.
> You pee them off for good reason, having too many
> is not a good thing.
>
> If there is damage, ramming what you are missing
> into the body is not going to work on a system this complex. At least until we can describe the entire system, completely. There is not proof
> Serotonin site damage means the treatment is more
> Serotonin. Ramming huge amounts (keep in mind
> the body uses milla and nano levels of neurotransmitters) begs the question, how will it be regulated & given the one NT level effects
> all others, how do you know how much to take ?
> Remember, we don;t really know how much of each
> NT a normal person should have, at least not in the sence we do know how much thyroid to give and can measure thyroid against norms at ml and nl levels.
>
> Also, the neurotransmitter deficency model of
> mental illness was cast aside a decade ago.
> It does not work. That is not to say NT's have nothing to do with mental illness.
>
> disney4, I too got your post. I know quite a bit
> about SS, as I take 450 mgs of Effexor and 30 mgs
> Remeron. I have to know about SS as very high doses of 5HT effecting AD's (Effexor is the higest)are the major cause of SS. Based on what I know, I saw you were thinmking for doing something dangerous. Given that you had SS in the past, I felt I had to warn you. Sorry you did not want to hear that.****************************
I was referring to the toast and jam when I asked if that could help. When I was thanking Caleb, I knew he had read the whole post before replying. If you see the second paragraph of my post, it refers to the fact that 5 HTP supplementation is not proven to be safe. I think I am okay with the toast and jam. Thanks for your concern, and I hear you loud and clear.
*********************************************
Bedtime Snacks: a Great Alternative to Sleeping PillsA high-carbohydrate snack, such as crackers and fruit or toast and jam, triggers the release of a brain chemical called serotonin, which aids sleep. And although the traditional glass of warm milk, a protein-rich beverage, probably doesn't affect serotonin levels, the warm liquid soothes and relaxes you and makes you feel full, which might help facilitate sleep.
A new product on the market called 5-Hydroxy-L-tryptophan, or 5-HTP, is touted as a building block for serotonin, which is a mood elevator, brain stimulant, and sleep enhancer. However, since its safety is questionable and no optimal dose has been established, you're better off raising serotonin levels naturally with high-carbohydrate snacks.
Posted by stjames on May 3, 2003, at 19:49:21
In reply to Re: Serotonin receptors may be damaged-help » stjames, posted by disney4 on May 3, 2003, at 9:55:17
> ****************************
> I was referring to the toast and jam when I asked if that could help. When I was thanking Caleb, I knew he had read the whole post before replying. If you see the second paragraph of my post, it refers to the fact that 5 HTP supplementation is not proven to be safe. I think I am okay with the toast and jam. Thanks for your concern, and I hear you loud and clear.
> *********************************************
Enjoy your snack ! The feer back systems I mentioned will make sure you are OK.
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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