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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Arthurgibson on March 13, 2003, at 23:41:44
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I have been a great advocate of the fish oil to combat depression and mood swings, but oh dear, for the past few weeks I have been getting Atrial Fibrillation. I have stopped the fish oil and the heart palpiations stopped abruptly.
This could be a serious problem for us "fishies". I have read on other web sites that this is a side effect.
My attacks were quite serious. I fell on the floor, could only speak one word at a time and came close to passing out. Atrial fibrilation can cause fatal blood clots.
I had boosted my does over the past few weeks, so I shall either re-start at a lower does, or stop it altogether.
What do you people think about that? It's got me worried.
Posted by mrporter1 on March 14, 2003, at 0:58:21
In reply to Fish Oil causing Atrial Fibrillation, posted by Arthurgibson on March 13, 2003, at 23:41:44
how much were you taking and what kind?
Does anyone know why fish oil has an impact on heart rate and rhythm?
Posted by Ilene on March 14, 2003, at 9:38:59
In reply to Re: Fish Oil causing Atrial Fibrillation - WHY » Arthurgibson, posted by mrporter1 on March 14, 2003, at 0:58:21
> how much were you taking and what kind?
>
> Does anyone know why fish oil has an impact on heart rate and rhythm?
Wouldn't that affect people who eat a lot of fish? Inuits and so on?Are you taking anything else that might have a drug-like effect? Minerals, vitamins, supplements?
--I.
Posted by linkadge on March 14, 2003, at 9:53:10
In reply to Re: Fish Oil causing Atrial Fibrillation - WHY » mrporter1, posted by Ilene on March 14, 2003, at 9:38:59
I get palpatitions dose dependantly as well.
Just enough can be very good for the heart,
but I believe perhaps it's causing a
substantial change in dopamine function,
which in turn regulates heart activity.you can upset the fat ballence the other way
too. That is if you have too much omega
three and not enough omega 6.Perhaps reduce dose and/or combine it with
some omega 6??Linkadge
Posted by Ilene on March 14, 2003, at 10:04:53
In reply to Fish Oil causing Atrial Fibrillation, posted by Arthurgibson on March 13, 2003, at 23:41:44
> I have been getting Atrial Fibrillation. I have stopped the fish oil and the heart palpiations stopped abruptly.
>
> This could be a serious problem for us "fishies". I have read on other web sites that this is a side effect.
>
>
> What do you people think about that? It's got me worried.
Did you bookmark those websites? I did some quick and dirty searches and found fish oil is recommended to *prevent* fibrillation. Supposedly. Right now fish oil is reputed to do everything but bring raise the dead.This is what I think. (The operative word is "think", as in wild speculation, taking a guess, whatever.)
1) You may not have experienced atrial fibrillation. It could have been something that felt like it, but wasn't really. I am "not" saying "it's all in your head". I'm saying you should have it confirmed.
2) The fish oil-fibrillation association could be coincidence. It could be caused by something else entirely, maybe something you took or did at the same time.
3) It could be the combination of fish oil and something else.
4) It could be a contaminant.
--I.
Posted by hok on March 14, 2003, at 11:50:17
In reply to Fish Oil causing Atrial Fibrillation, posted by Arthurgibson on March 13, 2003, at 23:41:44
I have had the same issue of rapid heart beat/tachycardia while taking 4 g of fish oil per day in the morning. I never really noticed it by itself, but I have since added a lot of other supplements that also increase my heart rate, including pregnenolone and selegiline and/or NADH...not to mention the caffeine consumption.
In the last week, I have since reduced my fish oil intake to 2 g per day and have had a noticeable reduction in heart rate.
> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
>
> I have been a great advocate of the fish oil to combat depression and mood swings, but oh dear, for the past few weeks I have been getting Atrial Fibrillation. I have stopped the fish oil and the heart palpiations stopped abruptly.
>
> This could be a serious problem for us "fishies". I have read on other web sites that this is a side effect.
>
> My attacks were quite serious. I fell on the floor, could only speak one word at a time and came close to passing out. Atrial fibrilation can cause fatal blood clots.
>
> I had boosted my does over the past few weeks, so I shall either re-start at a lower does, or stop it altogether.
>
> What do you people think about that? It's got me worried.
Posted by Arthurgibson on March 14, 2003, at 14:42:02
In reply to Re: Fish Oil causing Atrial Fibrillation, posted by hok on March 14, 2003, at 11:50:17
I take a swig every morning from a bottle of cod liver oil. Quite a big swig and lately I have been taking it in the evening as well. Probably I took too much.
The Atrial Fibrillation was confirmed by ECG and a heart specialist.
Maybe it is coincidence, buy I have gone several days without any trouble and I am increasingly thinking that stopping the fish oil has helped me. After a week or two I shall re-introduce it on a much lower does.
I notice that the drugs that control fibrillation also CAUSE the problem in some peole, so maybe fish oil does the same. Helps it in some people and causes it in others.
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on March 14, 2003, at 16:34:53
In reply to My dosage, posted by Arthurgibson on March 14, 2003, at 14:42:02
This is interesting in that many cases of A. Fib. are reported,although not all have EKG results.Fish oil can certainly affect the heart. One of its effects is to greatly reduce the sudden deaths that occur after heart attacks by helping to maintain normal heart rhythm.Those who got A. Fib. should contact a cardiologist immediately to try to get the heart into sinus rhythm.It is much more likely to be cardioverted successfully by getting early treatment,preferably within 48 hrs of onset.Atrial fibrillation is a common condition late in life in the normal course of events but it should be treated with respect.
Posted by Jaynee on March 14, 2003, at 17:59:51
In reply to Re: My dosage, posted by Ed O`Flaherty on March 14, 2003, at 16:34:53
Why cod liver oil? Aren't you getting way to much vitamin A?
I just started taking fish oil, mine is 1000mg, made from Anchovy, Mackerel, Sardine. I also started taking some homeopathic "calm" pill, but since taking both of these I have been feeling "really" good. I am also taking Celexa 20mg. I do know the last thing I need is atrial fibrillation. Apparently the doc's think that I may have had a heart attack in the past. I am only 38. So I don't need any heart side-effects.
I am now on a mission to look this up. I will definitely let you know what I find.
Posted by Jaynee on March 14, 2003, at 18:04:05
In reply to Fish Oil causing Atrial Fibrillation, posted by Arthurgibson on March 13, 2003, at 23:41:44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fish oil supplements are dietary supplements that contain oil from cold water fish such as mackerel, salmon, black cod, albacore tuna, sardines, and herring. The active ingredients in fish oil supplements are essential fatty acids known as omega-3 fatty acids. They typically include eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA).
The most commonly reported side effects of fish oil supplements include fishy odor on the breath, upset stomach, and greasy stools. A more serious side effect can be an increase in LDL cholesterol, a harmful form of cholesterol. Large doses of fish oil supplements may also cause weight gain and decrease the absorption of vitamins A, E, D, and K from the stomach. If you have diabetes, use caution when taking fish oil supplements, they are reported to increase blood sugar.Taking large amounts of fish oils over a long period of time may increase the risk of mild bleeding resulting in nosebleeds and bruising.
It's not a good idea to use cod liver oil as a fish oil supplement because it contains very high levels of vitamin A. High doses of vitamin A can cause headache, dry skin, itching, and liver damage.
Sources:
Fasching, P. "Fish Oil Supplementation Versus Gemfibrozil Treatment in Hyperlipidemic NIDDM. A Randomized Crossover Study," Hormonal and Metabolic Research 28 (1996).
Gray, D.R. "Fish Oil As An Adjuvant in the Treatment of Hypertension," Pharmacotherapy 16 (1996).
Micromedex Healthcare Series. Micromedex, Inc., 2001.
Posted by Krissy P on March 14, 2003, at 21:36:24
In reply to Fish Oil causing Atrial Fibrillation, posted by Arthurgibson on March 13, 2003, at 23:41:44
Well....... I've pretty much said what I thought about these fish oils. This week I have had salmon sandwiches, swordfish, and tonight Sushi. I just don't believe in taking a pill for something I can eat. Anyone have any Benzo-brownies????:-) JOKE
Are you sure it was atrial fibrilation?
Keep me posted please:-)
Kristen
==================================================================================================> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
>
> I have been a great advocate of the fish oil to combat depression and mood swings, but oh dear, for the past few weeks I have been getting Atrial Fibrillation. I have stopped the fish oil and the heart palpiations stopped abruptly.
>
> This could be a serious problem for us "fishies". I have read on other web sites that this is a side effect.
>
> My attacks were quite serious. I fell on the floor, could only speak one word at a time and came close to passing out. Atrial fibrilation can cause fatal blood clots.
>
> I had boosted my does over the past few weeks, so I shall either re-start at a lower does, or stop it altogether.
>
> What do you people think about that? It's got me worried.
Posted by Krissy P on March 14, 2003, at 21:39:51
In reply to Re: Fish Oil causing Atrial Fibrillation - WHY » Arthurgibson, posted by mrporter1 on March 14, 2003, at 0:58:21
>>>Does anyone know why fish oil has an impact on heart rate and rhythm?
From: http://hypertension.newstrove.com/
From: http://www.vetheart.com/diseases.html
This one is good:
Lone Atrial Fibrillation Forum
http://www.yourhealthbase.com/lafforum.htmlHope this helps:-)
Kristen
Posted by Ilene on March 14, 2003, at 21:40:53
In reply to First post of more to come regarding side-effects, posted by Jaynee on March 14, 2003, at 18:04:05
>
> It's not a good idea to use cod liver oil as a fish oil supplement because it contains very high levels of vitamin A. High doses of vitamin A can cause headache, dry skin, itching, and liver damage.
>Bone damage too.
Cod liver oil is a source of vitamin D, which can also be toxic.
As far as I can tell, cod liver oil is a holdover from Victorian days, when vitamin deficiencies were serious problems. People knew that some foods had remarkable healing powers (e.g. citrus fruit, cod liver oil). Some of these have retained their reputations to this day, even though we know much more about nutrition. I suppose if you were eating dry bread and maggoty beef, cod liver oil would be just the thing.
--I.
Posted by mopey on March 15, 2003, at 18:28:19
In reply to Re: Fish Oil causing Atrial Fibrillation - WHY » mrporter1, posted by Ilene on March 14, 2003, at 9:38:59
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 15, 2003, at 22:16:36
In reply to Paging Larry Hoover! Can you help here? Thanks (nm), posted by mopey on March 15, 2003, at 18:28:19
I know that there is clear evidence of a preventative effect of omega-3 fatty acids on the incidence of ventricular fibrillation, but I've found no reference to atrial fibrillation and omega-3s. I didn't enter into the discussion as I didn't want to appear to be discounting people's experience. Perhaps the fish oil had a arrhythmogenic effect, but there could be other factors at play.
As far as I can tell, fish oil is being given a green light with respect to cardiac function and health. Here are a couple of reviews giving that position.
Lar
Lipids 2001;36 Suppl:S111-4
Myocardial membrane fatty acids and the antiarrhythmic actions of dietary fish oil in animal models.
McLennan PL.
Smart Foods Centre, Department of Biomedical Science, University of Wollongong, NSW, Australia. petermcl@uow.edu.au
Epidemiologic studies, animal studies, and more recently, clinical intervention trials all suggest a role for regular intake of dietary fish oil in reducing cardiovascular morbidity and mortality. Prevention of cardiac arrhythmias and sudden death is demonstrable at fish or fish oil intakes that have little or no effect on blood pressure or plasma lipids. In animals, dietary intake of fish oil [containing both eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA, 20:5n-3) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA, 22:6n-3)] selectively increases myocardial membrane phospholipid content of DHA, whereas low dose consumption of purified fatty acids shows antiarrhythmic effects of DHA but not EPA. Ventricular fibrillation induced under many conditions, including ischemia, reperfusion, and electrical stimulation, and even arrhythmias induced in vitro with no circulating fatty acids are prevented by prior dietary consumption of fish oil. The preferential accumulation of DHA in myocardial cell membranes, its association with arrhythmia prevention, and the selective ability of pure DHA to prevent ventricular fibrillation all point to DHA as the active component of fish oil. The antiarrhythmic effect of dietary fish oil appears to depend on the accumulation of DHA in myocardial cell membranes.
Am J Clin Nutr 2000 Jan;71(1 Suppl):202S-7S
Prevention of fatal cardiac arrhythmias by polyunsaturated fatty acids.Kang JX, Leaf A.
Department of Medicine, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, MA 02129, USA.
In animal feeding studies, and probably in humans, n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) prevent fatal ischemia-induced cardiac arrhythmias. We showed that n-3 PUFAs also prevented such arrhythmias in surgically prepared, conscious, exercising dogs. The mechanism of the antiarrhythmic action of n-3 PUFAs has been studied in spontaneously contracting cultured cardiac myocytes of neonatal rats. Adding arrhythmogenic toxins (eg, ouabain, high Ca(2+), lysophosphatidylcholine, beta-adrenergic agonist, acylcarnitine, and the Ca(2+) ionophore) to the myocyte perfusate caused tachycardia, contracture, and fibrillation of the cultured myocytes. Adding eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA: 5-15 micromol/L) to the superfusate before adding the toxins prevented the expected tachyarrhythmias. If the arrhythmias were first induced, adding the EPA to the superfusate terminated the arrhythmias. This antiarrhythmic action occurred with dietary n-3 and n-6 PUFAs; saturated fatty acids and the monounsaturated oleic acid induced no such action. Arachidonic acid (AA; 20:4n-6) is anomalous because in one-third of the tests it provoked severe arrhythmias, which were found to result from cyclooxygenase metabolites of AA. When cyclooxygenase inhibitors were added with the AA, the antiarrhythmic effect was like those of EPA and DHA. The action of the n-3 and n-6 PUFAs is to stabilize electrically every myocyte in the heart by increasing the electrical stimulus required to elicit an action potential by approximately 50% and prolonging the relative refractory time by approximately 150%. These electrophysiologic effects result from an action of the free PUFAs to modulate sodium and calcium currents in the myocytes. The PUFAs also modulate sodium and calcium channels and have anticonvulsant activity in brain cells.
Full text of the above report at:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/71/1/202
Posted by Krissy P on March 15, 2003, at 22:17:59
In reply to Re: Paging Larry Hoover! Can you help here? Thanks, posted by Larry Hoover on March 15, 2003, at 22:16:36
Did you try this????
Posted by mopey on March 16, 2003, at 9:27:15
In reply to Re: Paging Larry Hoover! Can you help here? Thanks, posted by Larry Hoover on March 15, 2003, at 22:16:36
Thanks for the info, Larry! All very interesting.
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 16, 2003, at 10:52:47
In reply to Re: Paging Larry Hoover! Can you help here? Thanks, posted by mopey on March 16, 2003, at 9:27:15
> Thanks for the info, Larry! All very interesting.
Is that what you were looking for, or was there something else?
Posted by Jaynee on March 16, 2003, at 13:37:12
In reply to Re: Paging Larry Hoover! Can you help here? Thanks, posted by Larry Hoover on March 16, 2003, at 10:52:47
Obviously it is important not to take too much fish oil. I don't think cod liver oil is the correct oil to take, and too much fish oil screws up the balance of things.
Here is the article:
Fish-Oil Supplements for Depression?
Epidemiologic data indicate that major depression is less common in populations that consume 0.5-1.0 g/day of omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids (found in seafood) than in populations that consume less. Researchers have begun to test the effectiveness of omega-3 fatty-acid supplementation for treating patients with schizophrenia (see Journal Watch Psychiatry Oct 24 2002) and mood disorders. Now, these researchers have assessed the antidepressant effect of supplementation with ethyl-eicosapentaenoic acid (E-EPA, a precursor of docosahexaenoic acid, the most important omega-3 fatty acid). In a double-blind fashion, researchers randomized 70 patients (recruited by family physicians) with moderate levels of depression despite antidepressant treatment of unstated duration to receive 12 weeks of adjunctive therapy with 1 of 3 E-EPA dosages (1, 2, or 4 g/day) or placebo.
Compared with the placebo group, the 1-g E-EPA group -- but not the 2-g and 4-g groups -- showed significant 12-week declines in scores on 3 depression scales. In intent-to-treat (efficacy) and completer (effectiveness) analyses, the 1-g group had the highest percentage of patients with 50% improvement in depression scores (range, 47%-69% for the 3 scales). E-EPA was well tolerated.Comment: Phospholipids, which contain fatty acids, constitute almost 60% of the brain's solid mass and have an important role in cellular signaling. Although the exact mechanism by which phospholipids might augment the effects of antidepressants is unclear, the authors cite research suggesting that higher doses of omega-3 supplements (or their precursors) can alter the balance between omega-3 and omega-6 levels; this balance may affect depression more than levels of either fatty acid alone. It is possible that the 1-g E-EPA dose was more effective than the others because it optimized this balance. We do not know whether omega-3 fatty acids would benefit the more severely ill patients seen in psychiatric practice.
— Steven Dubovsky, MD
Published in Journal Watch Psychiatry December 4, 2002
Source
Peet M and Horrobin DF. A dose-ranging study of the effects of ethyl-eicosapentaenoate in patients with ongoing depression despite apparently adequate treatment with standard drugs. Arch Gen Psychiatry 2002 Oct; 59:913-9.
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Posted by mopey on March 16, 2003, at 20:14:36
In reply to Re: Paging Larry Hoover! Can you help here? Thanks, posted by Larry Hoover on March 16, 2003, at 10:52:47
No, that's good for me, thanks. I was about to buy fish oil capsules and try them for depression when I saw this heart debate and got a bit worried.
Did you have a recommended brand? I heard Omegabrite was the most palatable/tolerable...
any other suggestions? I guess all the types that are not cod liver oil have same benefits?OK, I guess I did have some more questions!
Thanks, Larry
Posted by johnj on March 16, 2003, at 20:27:53
In reply to Re: Paging Larry Hoover! Can you help here? Thanks, posted by Larry Hoover on March 16, 2003, at 10:52:47
Hi Larry,
I wanted to ask you a few questions and bounce a few things that are on my mind. Everybody out there please feel free to jump in too.
First, I asked you about mangesium before and I can't remember if I would have to up my calcuim intake if I take a supplement?? Sorry my memory is not so good as of late. You mentioned I should take one spoonful of cod liver oil. for some A and D too. I have been reading some posts and I wondered what your take is on people having some adverse affects to fish oil. I did have some sleep fragmentation so I know megadoses per day are most likely not for me.
Also, I have recently diagnosed with Peyronie's disease(google it and it will come up, it is quite embarrasing for me). I was told to try and take up to 1000 mg of vitamin E. Could Vitamin E affect my lithium, TCA, or benzo levels?
I have upped my B-complex like we discussed awhile back and I feel better. I still have the problem with excercise and this week I sat all day and worked and felt better when I was more sedentary(it should actually be the opposite!) I was thinking about supplemnts, etc., and wondered if you have ever thought why people such as myself would benefit from supplments? I think about evolution and times were a lot tougher way back when so why should I need more when in the past our ancestors made due with a lot less. Or did they? I wonder what you think about the Atkins diet, etc. I myself am going to give up some grains and see what happens.
My pdoc gave me the ok to try 5-htp and I was suprised since they caution about seretonin syndrome. But, I think I will give it a try anyway at a low dose.
I am going to try things one at a time, taurine, 5thp, mangesium, and the vitamin E(cod liver oil)
Also one last question. I take nortryptline a TCA and I tried to lower my dose from 50 to 40 a few months back. After 3 days I felt pretty horrible. I have been on it for 10 years. They say TCA's work on downregulation so I wonder if my body cannot get back to normal when taking an antidepressant? Do I somehow become dependent on it and my body adjusts to it? Or do I have to suffer for a month or two before my body might take back over what it is supposed to do? I am just throwing some questions out to see what you think since I appreciate your knowledge. I am sure there are no correct answers but hypothesis are out there. Thanks Larry.
johnj
Posted by Ilene on March 16, 2003, at 21:40:04
In reply to Questions for Larry Hoover » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on March 16, 2003, at 20:27:53
> Hi Larry,
>
> I wanted to ask you a few questions and bounce a few things that are on my mind. Everybody out there please feel free to jump in too.
>
> I think about evolution and times were a lot tougher way back when so why should I need more when in the past our ancestors made due with a lot less. Or did they? I wonder what you think about the Atkins diet, etc. I myself am going to give up some grains and see what happens.
>
>
>
>
I've given up grains (most days) and potatoes, eat more vegetables and meat, and pay attention to glycemic load. It's not an ultra-low carb diet, but I feel better than I did on a high-carb diet.The Atkins diet is too extreme for me. Apparently you *must* take vitamins and minerals, at least when you start it. That says the diet is unbalanced.
I have doubts about the research that supports a high-carb diet. I think vegetable intake is more significant than grains or tubers. Plus there is no bodily requirement for carbohydrate, whereas you *need* fat and protein. You will die if you don't eat fat. You won't die if you eat no carbohydrate. (Google "rabbit starvation".)
Our ancestors needed to use more energy than we do, so they ate more, and they took in more vitamins and minerals. They probably ate more greens and meat than we do, and no milk or grains.
--I.
This is the end of the thread.
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