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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by jrbecker on March 4, 2003, at 11:23:09
In reply to Re: chat room » Ilene, posted by Ilene on February 27, 2003, at 19:36:57
Androog, or any other fellow Chicagoans... wondering if you had found a pdoc who was comfortable with alternative therapies such as opioid treament. Dr. Bodkin had recommended a few psychopharmacologists, but no one who does private practice.
Let me know if you had any success. My email is: jrbecker76@hotmail.com
thanks
JRB
Posted by androog on March 4, 2003, at 12:02:20
In reply to Re: androog, others..any luck with a Chicago pdoc?, posted by jrbecker on March 4, 2003, at 11:23:09
hi jr,
my guy is very UNcomfortable with prescribing alternative treatments for major depressive disorders. although he gives me a script for ultram, he only did it after i yipped at him like a toy poodle.
i, too, would be very interested in finding a chicagoland pdoc who is willing to give other treatments a go.
although i get the maximum daily dose of ultram, i need to take twice that amount in order for it to be effective. i'd really like to give the buprenorphine a try so i don't have to scrounge for more drugs than prescribed.
androog
Posted by jrbecker on March 4, 2003, at 22:15:02
In reply to Re: androog, others..any luck with a Chicago pdoc?, posted by androog on March 4, 2003, at 12:02:20
Thought this was interesting. The link below provides a directory to doctors accredited for opioid treatments. Unfortunately, this list of physicians refer to specialists who treat opiate addiction. But perhaps they might be somewhere to start in trying to find someone who will consider opioids for depression treatment...
http://manisses.com/2online/PUAlert/PA.html#clinical%20Updates
----------------------------------
Online directory of doctors
prescribing buprenorphine createdThe Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) recently announced the formation of an online directory of physicians who can prescribe buprenorphine — approved by the FDA in October — for the treatment of opiate addiction. The online directory will be updated daily as physicians send their credentials to SAMHSA and are issued an identification number by the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA). Physicians seeking information on how to receive training and become credentialed can call (866) 287-2728. The directory can be accessed at "www.buprenorphine.samhsa.gov" [SAMHSA]
Posted by blah on March 5, 2003, at 23:42:13
In reply to Directory of docs prescribing buprenorphine , posted by jrbecker on March 4, 2003, at 22:15:02
I just got my shipment of Ultram (actually generic Ultram) tonight. I've only taken one 50mg pill so far and haven't felt much, but it might have helped a bit (then again I say that at the early small doses of almost every med, then as the dose goes up, "Horror!")Tomarrow I guess I'll go up to 100mg, but don't know how often I should take it. Does anyone know how many times a day I should take Ultram, and how far apart the doses should be? Anyway we'll see how well it works in the coming week.
Posted by Ilene on March 6, 2003, at 9:10:49
In reply to Glory be to thailand, posted by blah on March 5, 2003, at 23:42:13
> I just got my shipment of Ultram (actually generic Ultram) tonight.
Where do you live? I've heard of a drug called amineptine (survector or maneon) that was pulled from the market because it makes people feel good. Good enough that it was "abused" by a few people.
If your drugs don't go thru customs, do they come and arrest you?
--I
Posted by Ilene on March 6, 2003, at 9:16:59
In reply to Re: Glory be to thailand, posted by Ilene on March 6, 2003, at 9:10:49
> Where do you live? I've heard of a drug called amineptine (survector or maneon) that was pulled from the market because it makes people feel good. Good enough that it was "abused" by a few people.
>
>
> --I
>PS: there's a related drug called tianeptine (stablon, coaxil).
Posted by ShelliR on March 6, 2003, at 10:19:48
In reply to Re: Glory be to thailand, posted by Ilene on March 6, 2003, at 9:10:49
> If your drugs don't go thru customs, do they come and arrest you?
>
> --INo arrests :-)
When my overseas order didn't go through customs, I got a letter saying that I could appeal the decision. Which of course I didn't.Shelli
Posted by Ilene on March 6, 2003, at 11:24:17
In reply to Re: Glory be to thailand » Ilene, posted by ShelliR on March 6, 2003, at 10:19:48
> No arrests :-)
> When my overseas order didn't go through customs, I got a letter saying that I could appeal the decision. Which of course I didn't.
>
> Shelli
>
>
What did you order?
Posted by blah on March 6, 2003, at 12:14:37
In reply to Re: Glory be to thailand, posted by Ilene on March 6, 2003, at 9:10:49
From what I've heard they seize your package and send you a letter asking if you want to contest it (though more often than not it gets through). Sometimes they'll even send it back to you after a while. I heard one story of the DEA going to a guy's house to threaten him, but they still took no action. At worst you mainly risk seizure and loosing your money. There are american internet pharmacies that will give you a "doctor consultation" but they are much more expencive.
Posted by ShelliR on March 6, 2003, at 13:38:48
In reply to Re: Glory be to thailand » ShelliR, posted by Ilene on March 6, 2003, at 11:24:17
> What did you order?
buprenorphine (sublingual). I don't know if you can still order it from overseas--I had a hard time getting it after a while.
Shelli
Posted by Questionmark on March 7, 2003, at 22:33:39
In reply to Glory be to thailand, posted by blah on March 5, 2003, at 23:42:13
Hey, Ultram is an opioid right? If not, nevermind this. .. i don't have much first or 2nd hand experience with opiates, but from what i have experienced, it seems that tolerance to the nice psychological effects develops extremely fast (within weeks or even days). Maybe this isn't true with all people, but i think it is with most. For that reason (and since it can be addicting of course), i would think about just taking it every other day, or even once or twice a week or something. This might not leave you feeling good all the time, but at least you might be able to feel good, for sure, however many times a week. i dunno. i hope this drug helps you.
Posted by blah on March 9, 2003, at 7:42:46
In reply to Re: Glory be to thailand, posted by Questionmark on March 7, 2003, at 22:33:39
OK, after a few days my reaction to the Ultram hasn't been great. I got sweats and other problems. I'm not sure whether to just lower the dose or not, but I'm scarred to keep taking it now. I'm not really sure what to do I feel so alone. It seems no drug will work for me. I may have withdrawl for a few days but don't know whether to taper off or not. Maybe nothing will work for me. Maybe I'm just lost.
Posted by androog on March 9, 2003, at 13:16:19
In reply to Just tired, posted by blah on March 9, 2003, at 7:42:46
sorry to hear the tramadol is not doing it for you. i have to admit that i had my doubts since your depression seems to be part of a larger packet of problems. i think tramadol does the trick mainly for people who have depression as their primary problem. also, i think that people who have experienced relief from depression when taking opiod painkillers like vicodin or percodan are the ones most likely to have success with ultram.
as far as tapering off tramadol, i'd take one less per day until you're off. if you feel like you may be going through withdrawal, try taking one less every two days.
if anyone in the group has a more educated recommendation for getting off tramadol, please feel free to chime in. i only know what i have experienced personally and i realize that different people react in different ways.
Posted by ShelliR on March 9, 2003, at 16:32:15
In reply to Just tired, posted by blah on March 9, 2003, at 7:42:46
I know Elizabeth (who has been taking buprenorphine with effexor) found no relief when she tried to substitute ultram for buprenorphine.
I think the best idea is to go to a pain specialist, show him/her the buprenorphine article and proceed from there. I think pain specialists are more sympathetic when it comes to pain, than are pdocs. Even my present pdoc, who doesn't have a problem with me taking methadone, still won't prescribe it so I still go to both doctors--one for ADs and one for methadone.
Shelli
Posted by Questionmark on March 10, 2003, at 23:18:58
In reply to Just tired, posted by blah on March 9, 2003, at 7:42:46
That's too bad that it doesnt help much at all.
i know you said you took Nardil before, without much benefit, but another MAOI trial might be good. Do you have anxiety components as well? Maybe even if you do, or especially if you do not, low dose selegeline (l-deprenyl) could be a big help for you. i'm not sure, but check it out.
Posted by blah on March 23, 2003, at 14:09:37
In reply to Re: Just tired, posted by Questionmark on March 10, 2003, at 23:18:58
Well I went to the hospital for about a week and a half. They tryed two more antipsychotics on me(geodon-seroquil), and like zyprexa they increased my depression and anxiety, killed my concentration, made me more suseptable to pain, and put me in a plastic fog. My "specialist pdoc" has an unwavering faith in them but i told him no more. It's obvious these drugs won't work, and are counter productive. I'm on a low dose of lamictal now but it so far does nothing. I met a girl in the hospital, it was forbiden love, we weren't alowed to touch. I left when she got out, and we spent the night together. She said she loved me, and that she couldn't belive she wasn't alone anymore, but its been three days and she still hasn't called me back. I called twice on the day after to invite her out and then once today. I don't think i'll call again, and i dought she will ever call me back. Despite her happieness and insecurity I guess my insecurity was still too scary. I don't want to go back to the hospital, that authoritarian atmosphere was getting me down anyway. But there is no where for me to go. I can't do anything anymore, my only goal seems to be get through the day, and i don't know how long i can keep that up. Survival doesn't seem realistic anymore. Even sleep is frightning. Soon I may be left with the only choice left for me to make. It just hurts so much, and i don't have the strength to fight anymore. I don't know what to do. I just want it all to stop.
Posted by ejaustin on July 20, 2003, at 23:50:02
In reply to Re: chat room » Dr. Bob, posted by Ilene on February 27, 2003, at 13:57:51
For those trying to make a connection without revealing their personal information like email address, there is an anonymous remailer service available at http://anon.twwells.com/help/index.html
They've been around for years and years and they have a good reputation. I've never used them, but I've known several people on on-line support groups who have. If the instructions are confusing, I'll see if I can get a copy of the simplified instructions that are posted periodically.
Oh, yeah... it's free.
Posted by crazyamy on August 20, 2003, at 22:41:42
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression, posted by androog on October 28, 2001, at 14:35:18
>>>>>>it is SO frustrating to me to know that there is something out there that will free me, but that our society has placed such powerful sanctions against it that one needs to become a criminal to obtain it. why should society care what i put in my body? we can place liquor. tobacco and double cheeseburgers with fries into our systems anytime we want, and well we should. but when it comes to opiates the attitude is stick 'em in prison or refer 'em to another doc >>>>
the reason is that "they" (read government) would rather have us all high on crack and cocaine. we as a society are much more productive for them (read more tax money coming in) when we are going and going from the high those types of drugs provide. they also make us angry and therefore we are out killing each other, which means there are more laws they can make, more jobs blah blah blah. think about it like this, if you wanted to go out and buy drugs, which would be easier to find- opium or speed?? we are living the american dream, go to work, buy a house, have some kids, spend your money (BUY SPEND SHOP), pay your taxes, work some more... and the REALLY REALLY sad part is that we are so beaten down by life that we are destroying OUR children. go look at a newspaper, how many children have been killed or abused in your local town. and the governments answer- it is the drugs...but who is supplying them to us??? if that isn't enough to make you depressed...."thou art but slave to fate", you only think you have a choice.... I wish you the best of luck in your life!! thanks for reading my rambling!! CrazyAmy
Posted by Craig Allen on August 21, 2003, at 16:27:37
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression, posted by crazyamy on August 20, 2003, at 22:41:42
> >>>>>>it is SO frustrating to me to know that there is something out there that will free me, but that our society has placed such powerful sanctions against it that one needs to become a criminal to obtain it. why should society care what i put in my body? we can place liquor. tobacco and double cheeseburgers with fries into our systems anytime we want, and well we should. but when it comes to opiates the attitude is stick 'em in prison or refer 'em to another doc >>>>
>
> the reason is that "they" (read government) would rather have us all high on crack and cocaine. we as a society are much more productive for them (read more tax money coming in) when we are going and going from the high those types of drugs provide. they also make us angry and therefore we are out killing each other, which means there are more laws they can make, more jobs blah blah blah. think about it like this, if you wanted to go out and buy drugs, which would be easier to find- opium or speed?? we are living the american dream, go to work, buy a house, have some kids, spend your money (BUY SPEND SHOP), pay your taxes, work some more... and the REALLY REALLY sad part is that we are so beaten down by life that we are destroying OUR children. go look at a newspaper, how many children have been killed or abused in your local town. and the governments answer- it is the drugs...but who is supplying them to us??? if that isn't enough to make you depressed...."thou art but slave to fate", you only think you have a choice.... I wish you the best of luck in your life!! thanks for reading my rambling!! CrazyAmy
what the hell are you talking about? the government has a whole plan on how to make money on us if we're on cocaine? absurd.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 21, 2003, at 19:16:56
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression » crazyamy, posted by Craig Allen on August 21, 2003, at 16:27:37
> what the hell are you talking about? the government has a whole plan on how to make money on us if we're on cocaine? absurd.
First, please respect the views of others, be sensitive to their feelings, and don't post anything that could lead them to feel put down:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Also, follow-ups regarding the government should be redirected to Psycho-Social-Babble. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 22, 2003, at 0:48:10
In reply to Redirect: and please be civil » Craig Allen, posted by Dr. Bob on August 21, 2003, at 19:16:56
> follow-ups regarding the government should be redirected to Psycho-Social-Babble.
Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030818/msgs/252983.html
Bob
Posted by Ima on August 23, 2003, at 16:07:05
In reply to Redirect: and please be civil » Craig Allen, posted by Dr. Bob on August 21, 2003, at 19:16:56
Wow, where were all you supportive people when I started a controversy with the thread ..good drugs, bad drugs? Oh well, I guess I came off less deserving of sympathy.
Im glad to see the support.
What I meant by the title good drug/ bad drug was just this hypocritical response you've gotten, androog, from docs, esp. pdocs about opiates. It isn't on the pet drug list. Sorry if I sound cynical.
I too, started taking opiates when I injured my back last year. As I've gotten better and tried to wean myself I've noticed my mood swings resurfacing. I hadnt thought about them for a while because, while taking percocet, I havent had them.
Now, I haven't tried all the ADS you've tried, but for different reasons, they scare me. The opiates dont mess up my head. I don't have to try 8 or 10 different ones to find one that works and suffer withdraws from each one. (as Ive read about on this site) Most opiates are pretty straight forward.(synthetic and other wise)Im on ultram now. But the percocet was stronger. I didnt have any problem withdrawing from the percocet. I went a little over a month with out pain meds to see if I could. The only problem was my back pain. The first 10 days I was really achy but with fibro, Im usually achy, so it wasn't a surprise. The research Ive read indicates that less than 2 % of pain med users end up "addicted"
I think that addiction is a subjective term.(phisycal dependency is more accurate) My father in law could diet in stead of taking high blood pressure meds. But there is no stigma associated with such medication so no one judges him. Is he addicted?
He would probably die without them.
I read a good article on a fibromyalgia site that said the difference between abuse and use is the user takes meds (anykind) to function. The abuser takes them to not function (cop out).
I don't want to go through the emotional turmoil of trying to convince someone I'm not a drug abuser (as even a few on this site have accused me of).
So my heart goes out to you. I am in the same predicament.
Just be careful. Keep your wife in the loop so she can help you monitor your outlook on the whole thing. My husband has been super. He's never believed I have a problem with this.Maybe the day will come when the pharm industries and pdocs will see the financial value in honesty (dont hold your breath). The only bad drugs are the ones they dont prescribe.
Good luck
Peace
Ima
Percocet is definately stronger, and you could take lower doses, but like you said, you have to find a doc that will help first.
Posted by Aurora on October 30, 2003, at 23:55:41
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression, posted by crazyamy on August 20, 2003, at 22:41:42
> >>>>>>it is SO frustrating to me to know that there is something out there that will free me, but that our society has placed such powerful sanctions against it that one needs to become a criminal to obtain it. why should society care what i put in my body? we can place liquor. tobacco and double cheeseburgers with fries into our systems anytime we want, and well we should. but when it comes to opiates the attitude is stick 'em in prison or refer 'em to another doc >>>>
>
Amy, (hope it's OK with you if I omit the "Crazy" in front of your name), I've got some good news for you. The FDA approved Suboxone (buprenorphine with naloxone) last October. The indication is for treatment of opioid dependence, but there is a fair amount of clinical articles and some research (Harvard 1995, for one) about buprenorphine's efficacy in treating depression. For lots more information on Suboxone and treatment of depression, please read my posting of earlier today, which I'm cut-and-pasting here:
Elizabeth-re opiates: Buprenorphine for depression » Chuckie
Posted by Aurora on October 30, 2003, at 22:36:22In reply to Re: elizabeth about dosing on opiates/ anyone, posted by Chuckie on October 30, 2003, at 15:10:05
Dear Chuckie and "reese1" (posted on October 24, 2002 "elizabeth about dosing on opiates/anyone")
I'm a new member and can share new information on buprenorphine. It is now available in sublingual tablet form, under the trade name of Suboxone (a 4:1 combination of buprenorphine and naloxone). Naloxone has no clinical effect when taken sublingually as directed--but if made into solution and injected, it induces immediate painful opiate withdrawal. Naloxone was added to prevent diversion to the street as a cash drug, and has been very successful in these first 9 months, according to the DEA.
A wealth of information is available on the government's website: www.buprenorphine.samhsa.gov including a "Physician Locator". Also, you can call 1-877-SUBOXONE and clinical staff will answer your questions.
The FDA's indication is for treatment of opioid dependence, so you may need to educate your physician regarding treatment for depression with the clinical article's in Chuckie's posting of 10/30/03. A University of California psychiatrist (director of that UC's Dept. of Psychiatry), said he anticipates their greatest use of Suboxone will be for treatment of depression, not opioid dependence or pain (other possible uses). He had read the 1996 editorial published in "Biological Psychiatry", entitled "Buprenorphine for Depression: The Un-adoptable Orphan", which Chuckie included in his 10/30/03 posting. He said buprenorphine apparently has a very fast onset of AD action (2-4 hours) and with insurance companies' pressure for fast discharges from the hospital, it could be helpful both to patients (faster relief) and insurance companies (shorter hospital stays). He would then taper patients off buprenorphine (Suboxone) after a few weeks when their conventional AD had time to take effect.
The tablets come in 2 mg and 8 mg and it's once-a-day dosing (half-life ranges from 37-92 hours). It's probably too early to know what the average dosing is for depression (range is 4-32 mg for opioid dependence). Bottom line is: dose to effect. As a partial mu opioid agonist, buprenorpohine has a ceiling effect: taken alone, overdosing will not result in respiratory lethality, unlike full opioid agonists.
Another psychiatrist has successfully treated two patients with treatment resistant depression using Suboxone. They had tried everything. Nothing had worked. They had very fast results with Suboxone and have been on it about three months.
Obviously there is no one medication for everyone. Suboxone is working from some, and it's helpful to have another option when there are patients who haven't received relief from existing medications, or who have had incomplete response with an AD.
I hope this may be helpful to some. In any case, never give up your search for a successful treatment. As long as there's life, there's hope. We have to care enough about ourselves to keep trying. After decades of struggling with major depression, I met a pdoc I trusted and finally agreed to try ADs (since exercizing alone wasn't enough). It took trials on five ADs before I found the one right for me, and two years later, I needed to add Provigil for energy. It's a whole new life. I feel grateful and blessed--definitely worth the long journey.
Sending wishes for your healing,
Aurora
Posted by mbutka on April 8, 2004, at 7:10:32
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine-- bee happy, posted by androog on January 26, 2003, at 22:30:05
Briefly, the main problem with buprenorphine is it is not approved for treatment of depression, and cannot be used off-label. I am a family doctor who prescribes it and I have seen it work very well for depression related to drug abuse, but any doctor who prescribes it for anything other than addiction risks losing their license to prescribe it. Technically this is probably true for other opioids or Ultram, but in reality the DEA does not watch them closely.
Yes opioids may work, but while there are other treatments available with which we have more experience, I understand a psychiatrist's reluctance to prescribe something that has risk of addiction or overdose and with street value. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option, but I would limit it to someone I already know well.
Posted by buddhi on July 28, 2005, at 15:47:18
In reply to Opioids and anxiety...?, posted by Ame Sans Vie on January 27, 2003, at 4:14:08
> Well, in the past I've been prescribed Hycodan (Canadian formulation), propoxyphene HCl, codeine, and hydromorphone. The Hycodan (at a dose of 15mg q8hr) worked especially well-- it both relieved the anxiety, yet didn't have me throwing up all day. I'm interested in trying buprenorphine, and it shouldn't be difficult to obtain it (or hydrocodone) seeing as my pdoc already has me on Klonopin, Valium, Ativan, Xanax, and just a few days ago called in prescriptions for BuSpar and Marinol (which works incredibly well, I might add... I'd rather not be taking it though, on the basis of drug testing for when I finally get out to look for a job. I have the feeling that most employers would frown upon finding THC in your system, even if it were backed up by a Rx). Another consideration is Stadol (butorphanol) nasal spray-- anyone have any experience at all with this stuff? I've used it recreationally years ago, but that was before my disorder(s?) hit full force. TIA!
>
> --Michaelwondering how much marinol you took or are taking???? Thanks so much buddhi!!! you can write me back on this board or amy@pause.com
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