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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by borderliner21 on January 23, 2003, at 1:37:35
I was on paxil for 2 years and I discontinued it 4 months ago. Now I have these strange tics that the doctor says could be tourrets also my sex drive is still not the same as it was before and orgasms suck.
Posted by Alara on January 23, 2003, at 3:35:21
In reply to can ssris cause permanent side effects?, posted by borderliner21 on January 23, 2003, at 1:37:35
Borderliner, are you getting as much sleep as you were getting before coming off Paxil?
Posted by ArthurGibson on January 23, 2003, at 4:40:04
In reply to can ssris cause permanent side effects?, posted by borderliner21 on January 23, 2003, at 1:37:35
Yes, SSRIs can leave permanant side effects, but not always. Your side effects may diminish in time, probably will.
PAXIL (SEROXAT) does seem to be a nasty drug. It was on our (UK) TV this morning that ex users want it banned.
I still think that PROZAC, although slow and a bit weak, is the best SSRI in terms of least side effects and easiest to come off.
Posted by Bill L on January 23, 2003, at 8:59:08
In reply to can ssris cause permanent side effects?, posted by borderliner21 on January 23, 2003, at 1:37:35
I have read a lot about these drugs and have never heard of permenant side effects. I'm sure you will be fine. Maybe it will take another couple of months.
Posted by djmmm on January 23, 2003, at 9:21:26
In reply to can ssris cause permanent side effects?, posted by borderliner21 on January 23, 2003, at 1:37:35
Sure, why not? I still experience the "electric--shock" sensation and I am consistantly on medication (Parnate now)...They started when I first discontinued Paxil (i was 15)....im 24 now...9 years seems fairly permanent. I think it's because of how young I was when I started.
I think it's naive to think that antidepressants don't cause some permanent side-effects, since the theory behind how these meds work, is based on downregulation and neuron growth.
Posted by ArthurGibson on January 23, 2003, at 9:32:11
In reply to Re: can ssris cause permanent side effects?, posted by djmmm on January 23, 2003, at 9:21:26
Ever since I started taking PROZAC I have been a reader and contributor to this board, so there is a permanant side effect for a start.
Posted by borderliner21 on January 23, 2003, at 11:42:46
In reply to Can, posted by ArthurGibson on January 23, 2003, at 9:32:11
you have permanent shock sensations from paxil?
Posted by agencypanic on January 23, 2003, at 14:02:07
In reply to Re: Can, posted by borderliner21 on January 23, 2003, at 11:42:46
If there is a psychiatrist or pharmacist on the list who can
comment on side effects I'd like to hear from them on this issue.
Posted by Jumpy on January 23, 2003, at 14:36:41
In reply to can ssris cause permanent side effects?, posted by borderliner21 on January 23, 2003, at 1:37:35
I think yes. We know antipsychotics can cause permenant side effects ... namely tardive dyskinesa. I wouldn't doubt that antidepressants may also leave some individuals with continuing side effects. They also may result in permenant benefits, like remission from depression ... remember may patients may go on a single course of an antidepressant, taper off and never have the depression return again.
Severe depression definately can cause permenant "side effects" as well. Memory difficulties, concentration problems, fatigue and death (suicide). So, antidepressants may prevent these side effects.
Overall, I think SSRI do much more good than harm. I say keep them around.
Jumpy
Posted by oracle on January 23, 2003, at 16:16:38
In reply to Re: can ssris cause permanent side effects? » borderliner21, posted by Jumpy on January 23, 2003, at 14:36:41
> Severe depression definately can cause permenant "side effects" as well. Memory difficulties, concentration problems, fatigue and death (suicide).
Can ? I think it is without question that severe depression causes permanent effects.
Posted by Creaky_Neurons on January 23, 2003, at 16:51:50
In reply to can ssris cause permanent side effects?, posted by borderliner21 on January 23, 2003, at 1:37:35
I say yes.
I have never been the same since my first round of zoloft. sleep patterns have been permanently hosed.
also, look up the "corkscrew neuron effect" similar to MDMA damage. not a good sign.
let's see: lack of sex drive, supression of rem, low artistic/romantic drives, emotional numbing.
but at least i wasn't depressed.
Posted by oracle on January 23, 2003, at 17:18:42
In reply to Re: can ssris cause permanent side effects?, posted by Creaky_Neurons on January 23, 2003, at 16:51:50
> also, look up the "corkscrew neuron effect" similar to MDMA damage. not a good sign.
Huh ?The double standard, says neurotoxicologist Dr. James O'Callaghan, points to the nation's blind spot when it comes to Ecstasy.
Not necessarily true, says O'Callaghan, who works for the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. He says these ads are misleading because they leap beyond what we already know -- that administering the popular club drug, also known as MDMA, carries the aftereffect of temporarily decreasing serotonin. "It looks like a blank slate, but it comes back," says O'Callaghan. "I'm not saying that MDMA isn't bad. I'm just saying that there's no evidence that it destroys serotonin neurons."
Posted by worrier on January 23, 2003, at 20:08:43
In reply to No. They can not, posted by Bill L on January 23, 2003, at 8:59:08
> I have read a lot about these drugs and have never heard of permenant side effects. I'm sure you will be fine. Maybe it will take another couple of months.
Hey there, don't mean to be discouraging, but I have what are starting to appear to be permanent side effects from SSRI's...reacted badly to all AD's I've tried, but a mere 4 weeks on paxil damn near killed me. Serious serotonin overload problem that landed me in the ER after the worst panic attack ever...lasted 2 days with no let up. 9 months later I am still so far from normal...used to "just" have panic attacks but now have generalized constant anxiety controlled somewhat by xanax and still have the occasional panic attack. If I had it to do over I'd never have taken the paxil and kept my panic attacks. I had lived with them with no treatment for almost 20 years. Now every day is a struggle and I feel totally frustrated. Maybe it won't be permanent, my pdoc says there is no way to know. Again, I don't intend to frighten anyone or generalize about these drugs...they just need to be used with caution. They are not the harmless magic bullet the drug companies want us to think they are, but I know many people who benefit greatly from them with no side effects either while taking them or after. Worrier.
Posted by what? on January 23, 2003, at 20:55:07
In reply to Re: No. They can not » Bill L , posted by worrier on January 23, 2003, at 20:08:43
I had the same thing, I have also had E about 7x's(leaving smaller no orgasm laspes for a week each time). With me my orgasm came back after about 3 months. So neurotrans. rebound can take a while depending on how dependant your brain was on it.
Posted by ace on January 23, 2003, at 21:56:13
In reply to can ssris cause permanent side effects?, posted by borderliner21 on January 23, 2003, at 1:37:35
> I was on paxil for 2 years and I discontinued it 4 months ago. Now I have these strange tics that the doctor says could be tourrets also my sex drive is still not the same as it was before and orgasms suck.
Unfortunately I think the more time goes on the more this is the case. Dr. Stuart Shipko, from the Panic Disorders Institute, has mote some patients who have lost sexual ability and when the SSRI was removed It did not regain. Also he stated to have seen 23 y/o's with Parkinsons from SSRIs. He thinks there is a chance that in the future we will see a lot of ex-SSRI users with Parkinsons.
Posted by ace on January 23, 2003, at 22:08:00
In reply to Re: can ssris cause permanent side effects?, posted by djmmm on January 23, 2003, at 9:21:26
> Sure, why not? I still experience the "electric--shock" sensation and I am consistantly on medication (Parnate now)...They started when I first discontinued Paxil (i was 15)....im 24 now...9 years seems fairly permanent. I think it's because of how young I was when I started.
Djmmm - how long were you on the Paxil for? It's terrible that you stll get them. Do they annoy you a great deal? Used to them? When I went of Zoloft I had the same. Didn't really abate 'til I re-started Zft. But when I swithched to Nardil there were no probs whatsover. BTW, I was on Zoloft around 3 yrs 8months. Started it when I was around 19. I'm same age as you now (24) It's interesting -- I heard of someone who switched from Paxil to another AD but still needed 5mg Paxil to keep the withdrawal symptoms at bay. This is not good. Do you think this happens especially/only with Paxil?> I think it's naive to think that antidepressants don't cause some permanent side-effects, since the theory behind how these meds work, is based on downregulation and neuron growth.
But many 'specialists' are adamant that the receptors 'upregulate' again. Would you disagree?
Posted by Caleb462 on January 23, 2003, at 23:03:27
In reply to Re: can ssris cause permanent side effects? » djmmm, posted by ace on January 23, 2003, at 22:08:00
I don't know of all the research done, but it seems to be pretty certain that there is damage that occurs to serotonin neurons. Atleast, in animals, it happens. Dopamine turns into hydrogen peroxide in the brain and damages axons, or something like that. To what extent, and at what doses this happens to humans, etc. is what is unknown.
Posted by djmmm on January 24, 2003, at 8:46:23
In reply to Re: can ssris cause permanent side effects? » djmmm, posted by ace on January 23, 2003, at 22:08:00
> > Sure, why not? I still experience the "electric--shock" sensation and I am consistantly on medication (Parnate now)...They started when I first discontinued Paxil (i was 15)....im 24 now...9 years seems fairly permanent. I think it's because of how young I was when I started.
>
> Djmmm - how long were you on the Paxil for? It's terrible that you stll get them. Do they annoy you a great deal? Used to them? When I went of Zoloft I had the same. Didn't really abate 'til I re-started Zft. But when I swithched to Nardil there were no probs whatsover. BTW, I was on Zoloft around 3 yrs 8months. Started it when I was around 19. I'm same age as you now (24) It's interesting -- I heard of someone who switched from Paxil to another AD but still needed 5mg Paxil to keep the withdrawal symptoms at bay. This is not good. Do you think this happens especially/only with Paxil?
>
> > I think it's naive to think that antidepressants don't cause some permanent side-effects, since the theory behind how these meds work, is based on downregulation and neuron growth.
>
>
> But many 'specialists' are adamant that the receptors 'upregulate' again. Would you disagree?
>Initially I was on Paxil for about 2 months, and I quit because I thought I was "cured," when in reality, Paxil had just begun to work, and my depression/social anxiety was much better. I shouldn't have quit.
This is when the "zaps" began. I revisited Paxil later that same year, with little success, then I augmented, changed meds..I tried everything, and nothing worked as well as the first Paxil experience...I got minimal results from every other med/combo (including a Prozac/effexor combo)...all-the-while experiencing the "zaps"
I still experience them, although rarely now (Im on parnate) I don't believe that this side-effect is specific to Paxil, because a couple of times, when I ran out of Nardil, they cam back full force.
Im sure it's a "serotonin thing" a result of manipulating your serotonin system.
As far as up/downregulation, neurochemistry is tricky. Changes occur, via cellular adaptive tolerance, the same mechanism by which addicts become "tolerant" Most research shows that this adaptation/manipulation lasts far longer than the actual presence of the drug (antidepressant in this case)
I think the arguement by (at least the developers of these meds) is that these changes are permanent. My dr (a psychopharmacologist) insists that his patients be on an antidepressant at least 1 year after they have "recovered" to insure that these adaptive changes have become permanent.
Remember, this is all based on theory.
Posted by djmmm on January 24, 2003, at 8:57:24
In reply to Ecstasy, posted by Caleb462 on January 23, 2003, at 23:03:27
> I don't know of all the research done, but it seems to be pretty certain that there is damage that occurs to serotonin neurons. Atleast, in animals, it happens. Dopamine turns into hydrogen peroxide in the brain and damages axons, or something like that. To what extent, and at what doses this happens to humans, etc. is what is unknown.
>That is the current theory..when ecstasy depletes the serotonin stores, dopamine is still left in the synapse, and since there is a greater amount of dopamine (more easily/quickly produced, it is taken into the serotonin neuron, where MAO degrades it into H2O2, which is toxic to serotonin neurons/axon terminals.
It's difficult to measure the effects in humans because most ecstacy users are polydrug users. There is also a theory that people who use Ecstasy may already have serotonin deficits, thus this specific drug seeking behavior.
I think the best research comes from other serotonin releasers (most of which are neurotoxic in animals) and one specifically (fenfluramine) was shown to be neurotoxic in humans.
Posted by oracle on January 24, 2003, at 10:30:34
In reply to Ecstasy, posted by Caleb462 on January 23, 2003, at 23:03:27
http://www.maps.org/media/peoplesprozac.html
Not necessarily true, says O'Callaghan, who works for the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. He says these ads are misleading because they leap beyond what we already know -- that administering the popular club drug, also known as MDMA, carries the aftereffect of temporarily decreasing serotonin. "It looks like a blank slate, but it comes back," says O'Callaghan. "I'm not saying that MDMA isn't bad. I'm just saying that there's no evidence that it destroys serotonin neurons."
O'Callaghan thinks this view is too simplistic. He says that just because the drug affects serotonin doesn't mean the damage takes place in those neurons. The rewiring, he argues, stems from something other than injury. "The [pruning phenomenon] is not necessarily reflective of damage," he says, "just profound and long-lasting changes."
He contends that if MDMA caused nerve-cell degeneration, star-shaped cells would form, leading to an increase of the glial fibrillary acidic protein, or GFAP. "Any chemical known to damage the brain has caused an increase in GFAP," explains O'Callaghan. "We don't see that response with MDMA." While detractors agree that GFAP is a valid indicator of brain damage, they still take issue with O'Callaghan's measurements. "MDMA is a potent brain neurotoxin. The entire field reads the literature as such," says Ricaurte. "Are all 100 nails in to shut the coffin? No. But are there 70, 85, 90? At what point do you look at the data and say it's met a certain criteria? That criteria's been met long ago."O'Callaghan doesn't get invited to speak at many conferences anymore -- even though he has been publishing extensively in this area for years. So politicians end up listening less to dissidents like him than to mainstreamers like Ricaurte and Dr. Alan Leshner, director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse. In a hearing before the Senate Subcommittee on Governmental Affairs this past July, Leshner stated, "There is substantial evidence to show that MDMA damages brain cells. Within the scientific community we cannot say with absolute certainty how and to what extent... but there is across-the-board agreement that brain damage does occur."
But O'Callaghan believes the whole idea of neurotoxicity -- of brain damage -- has been tossed around too freely. A single dose of reserpine, a prescription drug used to treat hypertension, markedly lowers serotonin levels for extended periods. "It's just as neurotoxic as MDMA, if you equate neurotoxicity with serotonin decrease," he says. "But if you look at damage as defined by loss of structure, you don't see it [with MDMA], even in whopping doses."
The long-term consequences of MDMA use are similarly ill-defined. "The evidence up to date has been pretty crummy," Dr. H. Valerie Curran, a psychopharmacology professor at University College London, told the NIDA conference in July, noting that the most consistent findings relate to learning and memory. "The effects are subtle, but have real implications." If MDMA does indeed cause brain damage by pruning the neuronal pathways, then a whole host of serotonin agents, including Prozac and Adderall, could be rewiring, and thus damaging, our brains. The latter -- often given to hyperactive children -- is particularly worrisome, say critics, because it also affects dopamine, which helps the immature brain develop normally. A paper co-authored by O'Callaghan in Brain Research last year concluded that all compounds acting on the brain's serotonin system can cause changes in serotonin neurons. O'Callaghan says the creation of these abnormalities, including corkscrew-shaped neurons, could be part of Prozac's desired therapeutic effect.
Posted by Peter S. on January 24, 2003, at 14:41:45
In reply to Re: Ecstasy, posted by oracle on January 24, 2003, at 10:30:34
I've had this sensation of electric shock going through my body since discontinuing SSRIs. It's not that unpleasant just somewhat disconcerting. This seems common to many people. Any theories as to the cause?
Posted by Marie416 on January 25, 2003, at 11:13:08
In reply to can ssris cause permanent side effects?, posted by borderliner21 on January 23, 2003, at 1:37:35
> I was on paxil for 2 years and I discontinued it 4 months ago. Now I have these strange tics that the doctor says could be tourrets also my sex drive is still not the same as it was before and orgasms suck.
Hey, I share your pain. I was on effexor for a year and then went on Wellbutrin for a while after until I stopped all meds about 6 months ago. My sex drive is still not the same, my sexual arousal does not feel the same and my orgasms are weaker. All doctors of course have said that they do not believe it to be the medication but that was the first to go when I started the meds and I still don't have it back. Its better than when I was on the meds but not nearly as good. I just keep praying that in time these damages will reverse themselves. In the meantime I search for a cure. It may not help that that I am 20 lbs heavier for the sex drive. Let me know if you find a cure.
Posted by Marilyn on February 26, 2004, at 9:00:04
In reply to can ssris cause permanent side effects?, posted by borderliner21 on January 23, 2003, at 1:37:35
Dear "Borderliner"
Side effects of SSRIs are complex and untransparent. For instance, it is only recently that "electrical shock" like phenomena are added to the Yellow Card Scheme (side effects reporting) in the UK. http://www.mca.gov.uk/ourwork/monitorsafequalmed/yellowcard/whattoreport.htm
For more information on (permanent, persistent) SSRI side effects I would like to suggest to read the following information:
http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/pinealstory.htm
http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/toxicity-brain-damage.htmMarilyn
> I was on paxil for 2 years and I discontinued it 4 months ago. Now I have these strange tics that the doctor says could be tourrets also my sex drive is still not the same as it was before and orgasms suck.
This is the end of the thread.
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