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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by bluedog on November 23, 2002, at 1:24:11
Larry
You appear to be in pretty hot demand due to your awesome research skills!!!!!
I have previously asked you about lipoic acid.You advised that this is one of the nutrients that EVERYONE should be taking. Now you gave me a link to a study that listed as one of the references another paper authored by Lester Packer PHD.
I have done some further research myself and I have also obtained a copy of a book by Lester Packer called the " The Antioxidant Miracle"
It appears that Dr Packer also has a web site
see http://www.thaiwave.com/networkantioxidants/scienceoverview.htmNow what I have read appears to be pretty sound advice and it appears that Dr Packer's credentials are pretty sound. He basically recommends certain antioxidants which he refers to as the NETWORK ANTIOXIDANTS that based on his research, although each separate nutrient being rather powerful in it's own right, act even more powerfully and in synergy with eachother when ALL these nutrients are taken together each day.
From what Dr Packer writes I believe that these antioxidants that he recommends could affect my depression just as powerfully as fish oil and should be given as high a priority as fish oil in my diet.
The antioxidants he particularly recommends that you should supplement each day are Lipoic Acid, Vitamin E, Vitamin C and Co-Enzyme Q10. He puts particular emphasis on Lipoic Acid.
Now, my question for you Larry is as follows:-
Do you believe that Dr Packer's recommendations are based on good and proper research or is he merely trying to sell supplements through his web site? I am considering ordering supplements through his web site and am wondering whether they represent good value. I am torn between his credentials being a Professor at Berkely and his apparent conflict in selling the same supplements he recommends through his website.
I am curious as to what your opinion is and whether there is further solid research to back up his claims?
Thanks Larry
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 23, 2002, at 8:52:14
In reply to Lipoic acid Network Anti-Oxidants --LARRY HOOVER, posted by bluedog on November 23, 2002, at 1:24:11
> Larry
>
> You appear to be in pretty hot demand due to your awesome research skills!!!!!I'm just glad people are interested.
> I have previously asked you about lipoic acid.You advised that this is one of the nutrients that EVERYONE should be taking.
(snip)
> Now what I have read appears to be pretty sound advice and it appears that Dr Packer's credentials are pretty sound. He basically recommends certain antioxidants which he refers to as the NETWORK ANTIOXIDANTS that based on his research, although each separate nutrient being rather powerful in it's own right, act even more powerfully and in synergy with eachother when ALL these nutrients are taken together each day.Quite correct, except they don't necessarily have to be taken at the same time.....they have to be in your tissues at the same time.
> From what Dr Packer writes I believe that these antioxidants that he recommends could affect my depression just as powerfully as fish oil and should be given as high a priority as fish oil in my diet.
They might have such an effect. You might also look at it more broadly, in the context of general health. Did I mention Dr. Pall? Do a search on him and peroxynitrite.
> The antioxidants he particularly recommends that you should supplement each day are Lipoic Acid, Vitamin E, Vitamin C and Co-Enzyme Q10. He puts particular emphasis on Lipoic Acid.
>
> Now, my question for you Larry is as follows:-
>
> Do you believe that Dr Packer's recommendations are based on good and proper research or is he merely trying to sell supplements through his web site?If he's selling the stuff, the good doctor has crossed a line. Unless there is compelling evidence that the commercial market is rampant with poor quality products, there is absolutely no reason to choose his products over others, unless they are cheaper than you can get at e.g. Walmart.
>I am considering ordering supplements through his web site and am wondering whether they represent good value.
I don't know that. It would be easy to go to e.g. iherb.com and do a cost comparison.
>I am torn between his credentials being a Professor at Berkely and his apparent conflict in selling the same supplements he recommends through his website.
I don't like doctors selling nutrients at large markups (typical case).
> I am curious as to what your opinion is and whether there is further solid research to back up his claims?
>
> Thanks LarryThe research is solid. But how does that make him a better nutrient salesman? Price is the only consideration at that point, IMHO.
You're welcome.
Posted by bluedog on November 23, 2002, at 11:34:09
In reply to Re: Lipoic acid Network Anti-Oxidants -- » bluedog, posted by Larry Hoover on November 23, 2002, at 8:52:14
> > From what Dr Packer writes I believe that these antioxidants that he recommends could affect my depression just as powerfully as fish oil and should be given as high a priority as fish oil in my diet.
>
> They might have such an effect. You might also look at it more broadly, in the context of general health. Did I mention Dr. Pall? Do a search on him and peroxynitrite.
>Thanks for this research lead. I find Dr Pall's work extremely interesting because my GP thinks that my depression and burn-out may be linked to a chronic fatigue like syndrome. I will definitely spend some time reading through his research. Dr Packer also spends time in his book talking about nitric oxide and it's role in the ageing process etc. He mentioned that the 1998 Nobel Prize in physiology and Medicine was awarded to the scientists who discovered nitric oxide's role as a signaling molecule in the cardiovascular system.
> > The antioxidants he particularly recommends that you should supplement each day are Lipoic Acid, Vitamin E, Vitamin C and Co-Enzyme Q10. He puts particular emphasis on Lipoic Acid.
> >Dr Packer and his researchers were apparently the scientists that discovered that lipoic acid boosts glutathione levels and that lipoic acid is one of the very few substances that crosses the blood/brain barrier and that this substance can protect the brain from oxidative damage after a stroke.
>
> >I am torn between his credentials being a Professor at Berkely and his apparent conflict in selling the same supplements he recommends through his website.
>
> I don't like doctors selling nutrients at large markups (typical case).
>I forgot to mention that Dr Packer is not a medical doctor but has a PHD in microbiology and biochemistry with his area of research being cell biology. I am also uncomfortable with a scientist selling nutrients. It seems almost impossible to find researchers who don't have some sort of connection with a product or companies that sell products. Conflicts of interest appear to be the rule rather than the exception in the research industry and I find this extremely frustrating.
>
> The research is solid. But how does that make him a better nutrient salesman? Price is the only consideration at that point, IMHO.
>I agree with you. One redeeming feature about Dr Packer is that, although he obviously has his own supplements, he does offer the following advice on the question of where to buy supplements and which brands to buy, and I quote directly from his book. "......Today, high quality supplements can be found in pharmacies, discount stores,catalogs, on the internet, and.....health food stores......My advice is to buy your supplements wherever it is most economical and convenient." and "Select products offered by reputable manufacturers that take special steps to ensure safety and effectiveness." Sounds like good advice but I don't know if it's enough to save him from having "crossed over the line" you mentioned in your post.
Thanks for your response!!!!
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 23, 2002, at 12:04:32
In reply to Re: Lipoic acid Network Anti-Oxidants -- » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on November 23, 2002, at 11:34:09
> > > From what Dr Packer writes I believe that these antioxidants that he recommends could affect my depression just as powerfully as fish oil and should be given as high a priority as fish oil in my diet.
> >
> > They might have such an effect. You might also look at it more broadly, in the context of general health. Did I mention Dr. Pall? Do a search on him and peroxynitrite.
> >
>
> Thanks for this research lead. I find Dr Pall's work extremely interesting because my GP thinks that my depression and burn-out may be linked to a chronic fatigue like syndrome. I will definitely spend some time reading through his research. Dr Packer also spends time in his book talking about nitric oxide and it's role in the ageing process etc. He mentioned that the 1998 Nobel Prize in physiology and Medicine was awarded to the scientists who discovered nitric oxide's role as a signaling molecule in the cardiovascular system.For years, nobody believed that your body would purposefully create such a corrosive molecule (it is innately a free radical (but so is O2, the oxygen molecule)). Your body can ordinarily control it, but it can also escape control.
More broadly, NO and peroxynitrite fall under the rubric of oxidative stress. That might bring a lot more research to light, but it can also take you down many other tangents.
>
> Dr Packer and his researchers were apparently the scientists that discovered that lipoic acid boosts glutathione levels and that lipoic acid is one of the very few substances that crosses the blood/brain barrier and that this substance can protect the brain from oxidative damage after a stroke.Lipoic acid is soluble both in lipid and in the aqueous compartments (e.g. plasma and cytoplasm), based on its ability to be reduced to dihydrolipoate. It is probably the best candidate yet for the title of "universal antioxidant".
> >
> > >I am torn between his credentials being a Professor at Berkely and his apparent conflict in selling the same supplements he recommends through his website.
> >
> > I don't like doctors selling nutrients at large markups (typical case).
> >
>
> I forgot to mention that Dr Packer is not a medical doctor but has a PHD in microbiology and biochemistry with his area of research being cell biology.Dr. Pall isn't a medical doctor either. Perhaps it helps to not have the belief structure of a medical doctor.
>I am also uncomfortable with a scientist selling nutrients. It seems almost impossible to find researchers who don't have some sort of connection with a product or companies that sell products.
Cashing in on their knowledge doesn't surprise me. My dad had a very weird 'brand loyalty'. Human nature is a weird thing.
>Conflicts of interest appear to be the rule rather than the exception in the research industry and I find this extremely frustrating.
I'm not so sure it's a conflict of interest unless they claim some sort of proprietary uniqueness, like the hypothetical "Dr. Parker's Miracle Formula". When the contents are identified, they simply become an easy source for the lazy.
> >
> > The research is solid. But how does that make him a better nutrient salesman? Price is the only consideration at that point, IMHO.
> >
>
> I agree with you. One redeeming feature about Dr Packer is that, although he obviously has his own supplements, he does offer the following advice on the question of where to buy supplements and which brands to buy, and I quote directly from his book. "......Today, high quality supplements can be found in pharmacies, discount stores,catalogs, on the internet, and.....health food stores......My advice is to buy your supplements wherever it is most economical and convenient." and "Select products offered by reputable manufacturers that take special steps to ensure safety and effectiveness." Sounds like good advice but I don't know if it's enough to save him from having "crossed over the line" you mentioned in your post.Unless he makes the same claims on his website, I suppose you're right.
Posted by johnj on November 24, 2002, at 21:44:41
In reply to Re: Lipoic acid Network Anti-Oxidants --, posted by Larry Hoover on November 23, 2002, at 12:04:32
Larry,
I was hoping to ask you a question and if you have any ideas maybe you could point me in the right direction. I have depression that was followed by a panic attack about 10 years ago. About a year after a bout of pnuemonia I began another workout regime. Just jogging lightly and increasing weekly. The 4th week my sleep became disrupted I was dizzy and somewhat spacey during the day. Almost felt like I had a hangover.I am on nortryptline 50 mg, some lithium to boost the AD, and 15 mg of tranzene. My doc doesn't see any connection between working out and my eventual mood disruption. I have tested this numerous times and it the same thing starts to happen. I was studying for an exam and did not work out or walk much more 3 weeks and I felt my best!(slept great too) I had a complete physical workup a year ago and no problems, just a high pulse rate. Through this sight I have found a few people with the same exact problem, but I have no idea what is going on. I feel like I should get stable and while I practice some yoga and meditation get off the TCA. Have you ever heard of such a med causing a paradox? Also since fish oil was a no go for me, I was looking at trying to optimize my health with some vitamins. I saw that you had some personal recommendations. Could you pass those on. I am trying to get things as best as I can and then hit my pdoc with the suggestion to cut down the TCA. I would like to know more about supplements for panic/anxiety disorder. Sorry to hit you with so much, but it seems you are well versed and I am a little confused right know. Thank you very much
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 25, 2002, at 9:05:19
In reply to Re: Lipoic acid Network Anti-Oxidants -- » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on November 24, 2002, at 21:44:41
> Larry,
> I was hoping to ask you a question and if you have any ideas maybe you could point me in the right direction. I have depression that was followed by a panic attack about 10 years ago. About a year after a bout of pnuemonia I began another workout regime. Just jogging lightly and increasing weekly. The 4th week my sleep became disrupted I was dizzy and somewhat spacey during the day. Almost felt like I had a hangover.The effects you note are not dissimilar to side-effects reported for those meds. Did you consider adjusting dose, or timing of dose?
Also, electrolyte disturbances seem a possibility. Did you ensure that your were properly hydrated with something like a 'sports drink'? I'm thinking Gatorade, as an example. It contains potassium and sodium that are lost via sweating.
> I am on nortryptline 50 mg, some lithium to boost the AD, and 15 mg of tranzene. My doc doesn't see any connection between working out and my eventual mood disruption.
Well, you're the expert on your own body. I think you know there is a link.
>I have tested this numerous times and it the same thing starts to happen. I was studying for an exam and did not work out or walk much more 3 weeks and I felt my best!(slept great too) I had a complete physical workup a year ago and no problems, just a high pulse rate.
Nortripyline is associated with a high pulse rate.
>Through this sight I have found a few people with the same exact problem, but I have no idea what is going on. I feel like I should get stable and while I practice some yoga and meditation get off the TCA. Have you ever heard of such a med causing a paradox?
All meds are associated with paradoxical reactions. When you exercise, you fundamentally change the way your body supplies energy to the muscles. Your liver is involved, and I'm really not that knowledgeable about exercise physiology. I suggest you ask around at a gymnasium for ideas. You don't have to get into meds with them. You're interested in how your body reacts to training.
>Also since fish oil was a no go for me, I was looking at trying to optimize my health with some vitamins. I saw that you had some personal recommendations. Could you pass those on.
Geez, that's a big topic. There are so many nutrients to consider. One of the big things I do is I try to change one thing in my diet at a time. I want to know what that change does or does not do to me.
The core would have to be water-soluble nutrients, and minerals. These are essential for your enzymes to work right. For example, vitamin C. It is necessary to activate folic acid. You can have lots of folate in your diet, and it will do you no good without vitamin C. C is also essential for the transformation of amino acids into neurotransmitters. There are so many things to consider taking.....
B-complex (always supplement the B's together....they're together for a reason)...I suggest B-100 daily, plus added B-12 1,000 mcg/day.
Vitamin C.....2,000 mg/day, or more, as tolerated.
Minerals: zinc 40 mg/day. selenium 200 mcg/day. This on top of a multi-mineral tablet. Magnesium 200-600 mg/day (start low, and build).
That's the core idea.
>I am trying to get things as best as I can and then hit my pdoc with the suggestion to cut down the TCA. I would like to know more about supplements for panic/anxiety disorder.
Here, you're probably going to benefit from phospholipids. Soya lecithin is a good source of three of the four major phospholipids. I prefer the granules, which are available at health food stores. Six teaspoons, straight up. They have a pleasant nutty flavour. If they taste/smell weird, they're rancid. Don't eat rancid lecithin. The missing phospholipid is phosphatidylserine (PS). It is generally synthesized from soya lecithin, and costs a good deal more. However, it is the most important of the four. Each is not only a membrane constituent (which combines with fish oil in neuron membranes), but is also a signalling compound in its own right. PS is generally soothing. 200 mg/day
Magnesium will also help with the panic reaction.
>Sorry to hit you with so much, but it seems you are well versed and I am a little confused right know. Thank you very much
> johnjIf people find what I have to say useful, then great. Just remember to treat a supplement trial as an experiment. Consciously think to yourself, "OK, let's see what 200 mg of phosphatidylserine does." That kind of thing. Try things. Pay attention to the result. If you're not sure, stop taking it and see what happens (that's a new experiment in itself). Go back on it. Your body may or may not react to something that I do react to. Unless you've got oodles of money for lab tests, and a doctor who'll help you with that all, you're left with doing nutrient trials to see what helps your body work better. Maybe you *don't* need magnesium, but maybe you *do*.
Medical science, particulary Western medicine, does not consider nutrition as a treatment beyond avoiding deficiency states. The RDA (recommended daily allowance) is set to prevent 99% of people from having overt deficiency disease. There is *no consideration* of what the optimal intake would be. Nor does the medical establishment much consider interactions between nutrients.
I, personally, am doing way better today than I was five years ago, in my humble opinion, because my tortured stressed damaged body has been receiving enough nutrients to work better, helping my mind work better. Your brain/body may vary.
Lar
This is the end of the thread.
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