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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on August 20, 2002, at 11:56:01
Am I the only one that has experienced these? I found maybe 4 other references in total from past posts about this, which seems scant.
It's not so pronounced anymore, but when I'd first started taking Effexor, every time I would yawn (which Effexor makes me do quite a bit), I would experience an intense, shivering sensation that seemed to start in the pit of my stomach, and radiate up towards my head and out towards my fingers, leaving me kind of dazed for several seconds. The previously mentioned posts described it as an orgasm, which is a rough approximation, but it doesn't really involve any genital sensations. More tickling/shivering than pleasurable, really.
Is this that unusual? Any theories as to just what yawns trigger or induce that could cause this?
Posted by Ritch on August 20, 2002, at 13:24:59
In reply to Bizarre sensations during yawns, posted by Eddie Sylvano on August 20, 2002, at 11:56:01
> Am I the only one that has experienced these? I found maybe 4 other references in total from past posts about this, which seems scant.
> It's not so pronounced anymore, but when I'd first started taking Effexor, every time I would yawn (which Effexor makes me do quite a bit), I would experience an intense, shivering sensation that seemed to start in the pit of my stomach, and radiate up towards my head and out towards my fingers, leaving me kind of dazed for several seconds. The previously mentioned posts described it as an orgasm, which is a rough approximation, but it doesn't really involve any genital sensations. More tickling/shivering than pleasurable, really.
> Is this that unusual? Any theories as to just what yawns trigger or induce that could cause this?Eddie,
I would tell your doctor about it. That doesn't sound so strange except you mentioned that you felt dazed for several seconds afterwards. Some people might think that suggestive of a possible partial seizure. SSRI's/Effexor do something similar to me. In my case, if someone says something really funny, it will make me laugh hard, and then I see spots temporarily and I get dizzy and sometimes have to lean on something to keep from falling down (if I am standing). It could just be from the rush of oxygen from the yawning (or in my cause, laughter).
Mitch
Posted by IsoM on August 20, 2002, at 14:32:11
In reply to Re: Bizarre sensations during yawns » Eddie Sylvano, posted by Ritch on August 20, 2002, at 13:24:59
Mitch, just a small note about laughter & how it affects you. Check over http://www.sleepdisorderchannel.net/narcolepsy/symptom.shtml especially the cataplexy part. Note that it may not be obvious to others & the fact it happens during intense emotional states. Mine occured with laughter coupled with previous stress or exhaustion.
You may have mild narcolepsy & not be aware of it. It's not nearly as uncommon as many think.
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on August 20, 2002, at 14:47:28
In reply to Weakness from Laughter » Ritch, posted by IsoM on August 20, 2002, at 14:32:11
> Mitch, just a small note about laughter & how it affects you. Check over http://www.sleepdisorderchannel.net/narcolepsy/symptom.shtml especially the cataplexy part. Note that it may not be obvious to others & the fact it happens during intense emotional states. Mine occured with laughter coupled with previous stress or exhaustion.
>
> You may have mild narcolepsy & not be aware of it. It's not nearly as uncommon as many think.That's an interesting link. It mentions sleep paralysis and hypnopompic hallucinations, both of which I get on occasion (as well as excessive daytime sleepiness). Sleep paralysis (and the accompanying hallucinations) are easily the creepiest and most disturbing things that ever happen to me.
Posted by IsoM on August 20, 2002, at 15:12:23
In reply to Bizarre sensations during yawns, posted by Eddie Sylvano on August 20, 2002, at 11:56:01
SSRIs seem to increase yawning in some people. I know it has in me but I yawned excessively even before I took ADs. Yawning is NOT a reaction of the body to decreased oxygen levels or increased CO2 levels. Research has shown people yawn even when breathing 100% oxygen. It is known that yawning and stretching increase blood pressure & heart rate & also flexes muscles and joints. Probably adrenaline (epinephrine) is released too.
Even though a lot of research has been done on yawning, the mechanism is still not fully understood. What is known is that it originates in the paraventricular nucleus of the hypothalamus. When yawning occurs, different neurotransmitters are released such as dopamine, glycine, oxytocin, excitatory amino acids, nitric oxide & ACTH, & some neuropeptides.
Yawning will occur when the brain switches attention or focus to another task too. Perhaps the neurotransmitters released facilitate attention & focus. Yawning does serve to "wake up" the brain & shivering can occur with an increase in excitement & focus.
I'm wondering if it's possible that Effexor has made the release of these chemicals more accentuated, causing the degree of shivering you experience. I know that my yawning is deep & frequent, causing my eyes to water & my nose to plug up. I'll often get shivers with it too, but not to your extent. The pathway your shivers take can be explained with the flow of blood out from the central region to the peripheral parts, very similar to the way an addict feels when shooting up their drug.
None of this sounds alarming but more a nuisance than anything. Still, mention it to your doctor when you see him/her next.
Posted by IsoM on August 20, 2002, at 15:18:15
In reply to Re: Weakness from Laughter, posted by Eddie Sylvano on August 20, 2002, at 14:47:28
You might want to bring it to the attention of your doctor. Expect resistance or disbelief, so come armed with lots of information printed out for him. I had too many doctors put off my questions because they didn't understand narcolepsy, thinking of it in its classic "fall asleep instantly" form. But that's a fairly rare reaction.
An intelligent, open-minded doctor should be able to diagnose it without going through all the trouble of sleep lab tests (which can take a long time to get booked for & all other meds need to be stopped before it can be done). If enough symptoms are there, a doctor can make the diagnosis on symptoms alone.
Posted by nikioct73 on August 20, 2002, at 16:47:07
In reply to Re: Bizarre sensations during yawns, posted by IsoM on August 20, 2002, at 15:12:23
Celesa and Effexor XL both made me yawn..for about the first month or so of TX...and yes it did feel 'Bizarre" to yawn all the time like that...
Posted by Ritch on August 20, 2002, at 23:06:55
In reply to Weakness from Laughter » Ritch, posted by IsoM on August 20, 2002, at 14:32:11
> Mitch, just a small note about laughter & how it affects you. Check over http://www.sleepdisorderchannel.net/narcolepsy/symptom.shtml especially the cataplexy part. Note that it may not be obvious to others & the fact it happens during intense emotional states. Mine occured with laughter coupled with previous stress or exhaustion.
>
> You may have mild narcolepsy & not be aware of it. It's not nearly as uncommon as many think.
Thanks IsoM,You have some very good points. The last couple of pdoc appts. I have been discussing this type of issue. My bipolar depressions are marked by difficulty concentrating, sleep disruption (at nite), and being sleepy and drowsy all day. When I tried Adderall a couple of years ago (for a wintertime bipolar depression), it was completely wiped out with just a single 5mg tab in the morning (and I slept a solid 7hrs a nite every nite). Unfortunately, I started to develop panic symptoms. But, I had dropped an SSRI to take the Adderall, so I may need to continue to take a low-dose SSRI to prevent the panic, regardless of what other meds I take. But, if I do get a little tired or exhausted due to lack of sleep (i.e.), and there is something that happens that is funny or threatening during the day I *do* get dizziness from it. If I can take something to keep me AWAKE during these depressions, I am NOT depressed. There is no doubt about that correlation. High doses of SSRI or tricyclics by themselves have never worked. The closest thing has been a low-dose combo of Zoloft + nortriptyline or Celexa + nortripytline + Wellbutrin. But, the bottom line is that I have to have something noradrenergic (esp.) to work. Even plain Dexedrine didn't work that well.
Mitch
Posted by Ritch on August 20, 2002, at 23:13:41
In reply to Weakness from Laughter » Ritch, posted by IsoM on August 20, 2002, at 14:32:11
> Mitch, just a small note about laughter & how it affects you. Check over http://www.sleepdisorderchannel.net/narcolepsy/symptom.shtml especially the cataplexy part. Note that it may not be obvious to others & the fact it happens during intense emotional states. Mine occured with laughter coupled with previous stress or exhaustion.
>
> You may have mild narcolepsy & not be aware of it. It's not nearly as uncommon as many think.
IsoM,I have also been thinking about this concept of "tactile hallucination" in the last several days. I have had several experiences during the daytime (esp. while I am driving for some reason), where it seems that I can "feel" the visual topography around me. It actually seems like the visual representation of the ground and scenery around me is attached to my *skin* somehow, and I can sense it's texture with my skin, although it is just a visual phenomenon. I don't know how that might tie-in to the narcolepsy stuff you unearthed, or whether that is some sort of temporal lobe anomaly.
Mitch
Posted by IsoM on August 21, 2002, at 1:24:42
In reply to Re: Tactile synesthesia » IsoM, posted by Ritch on August 20, 2002, at 23:13:41
Trust me to know about weird neurological disorders, Mitch. What you're describing sounds somewhat like Todd syndrome, also known as Alice-in-Wonderland syndrome for its strange distortions of perception. It's supposed to be rare but again, I wonder if it's not something that hasn't been described much & therefore not diagnosed much. I've never talked to or asked my doctors about it - I just accepted it, but as soon as I read about it, I knew that's what I had. My Mom has also described feeling similar & one son of mine has too.
It says most people feel alarmed when they've experienced it, frightening them a great deal. But since I first experienced these sensations when I was 9 or so, & have had them irregularly off & on through my life, I simply "explored" the sensations when they came without feeling worried.
Anyway, here's a few more links to check out another interesting subject. Decide for yourself. I've never felt the need to worry about it or treat it.
http://rikkus.info/aiws.html
http://www.the-cma.org.uk/HTML/alice.htm
http://www.drhull.com/EncyMaster/A/Alice-in-Wonderland.html
http://neuro-www.mgh.harvard.edu/forum/GeneralNeurologyF/ToStevebutnotfromShaman.html (the last being a post from a neurology forum)The first site is the best & most complete. It's been said that this syndrome may be a result of a viral infection. This is interesting as the first time I experienced it I was ill with a high fever. But I think the tendency may be inherited seeing my mother & one son have experienced it too.
Posted by Ritch on August 21, 2002, at 9:31:44
In reply to Re: more on Tactile synesthesia » Ritch, posted by IsoM on August 21, 2002, at 1:24:42
> Trust me to know about weird neurological disorders, Mitch. What you're describing sounds somewhat like Todd syndrome, also known as Alice-in-Wonderland syndrome for its strange distortions of perception. It's supposed to be rare but again, I wonder if it's not something that hasn't been described much & therefore not diagnosed much. I've never talked to or asked my doctors about it - I just accepted it, but as soon as I read about it, I knew that's what I had. My Mom has also described feeling similar & one son of mine has too.
>
> It says most people feel alarmed when they've experienced it, frightening them a great deal. But since I first experienced these sensations when I was 9 or so, & have had them irregularly off & on through my life, I simply "explored" the sensations when they came without feeling worried.
>
> Anyway, here's a few more links to check out another interesting subject. Decide for yourself. I've never felt the need to worry about it or treat it.
> http://rikkus.info/aiws.html
> http://www.the-cma.org.uk/HTML/alice.htm
> http://www.drhull.com/EncyMaster/A/Alice-in-Wonderland.html
> http://neuro-www.mgh.harvard.edu/forum/GeneralNeurologyF/ToStevebutnotfromShaman.html (the last being a post from a neurology forum)
>
> The first site is the best & most complete. It's been said that this syndrome may be a result of a viral infection. This is interesting as the first time I experienced it I was ill with a high fever. But I think the tendency may be inherited seeing my mother & one son have experienced it too.
Well, that was an interesting bunch of info! It was peculiar that it is often associated with migraines. I haven't noticed it much for quite some time especially since I have switched from lithium to anticonvulsants. Depakote is indicated for migraines... perhaps a more conventional antimigraine medication such as sumatriptan would be helpful.. If I 'have' that it would be very mild. The two most prominent symptoms I have experienced are the scale distortions, not the shape ones. The scale distortions are me vs everything else, not an individual object, and it is subtle (perceptually). The best way to describe it is getting your prescription changed noticeably with a new pair of glasses, and walking outside the optometrist's office and your car seems "little". Also, I have been sitting in my living room and the entire room seems to be huge-walls far far away. Mind you, it doesn't really LOOK that huge, it FEELS huge. None of this frightens me, however (except the nighttime Prozac-induced car flying episode ;). Well, I have discussed the music thing here plenty. But, in your links it mentioned hearing 'echoes' of audible sensation. If my loud bleeping alarm clock goes off in the morning sometimes and I shut it off, I can still hear it almost as loud continuing to go off for several moments, sometimes minutes.thanks,
Mitch
Posted by IsoM on August 21, 2002, at 14:11:16
In reply to Re: more on Tactile synesthesia » IsoM, posted by Ritch on August 21, 2002, at 9:31:44
Yeah, Mitch, I never have had shape distortions either, just scale like you. It's the hardest thing to describe for others so when I've heard odd descriptions from others & starting asking them if it seemed like such-n-such, they'd nod excitedly, saying 'yes!'
Things may still 'look' the same but 'feel' completely different. While I experienced this first at 8 or 9, I never had a migraine till I was 20 & remember it vividly as I was intrigued why I had this weird flickering pattern in my vision (scintillating scotoma). I had no pain with this first occurence but did with subsequent ones.
With my first experience as a child, I could 'see' these two small rocks circling each other in the air. Sometimes they seemed to be tiny particles, other times like huge boulders. But when I tried to focus on them better, I realized that there wasn't any rocks there. I thought at that time I was simply delirious with my fever (I was a knowledgable kid then!). As I lay in bed sick, my hands resting on my stomach, they 'felt' huge, then small. My stomach felt close to my hands but also infinitely far away. The surface felt like a honeycomb of hard crusty matter but underneath, soft & spongey. It reminded me of the cap or cone of a morel mushroom (I was into botany back then in a child-like way).
I still occasionlly can lie in bed in a darkened room & looking at the ceiling, I see the light fixture so close & yet oddly, infinitely far away. It can flucuate like that at times. When it's close, I could reach out without extending my arm & touch it, though I know in reality I couldn't. Sometimes, it seems like the ceiling comes closer & closer. If I close my eyes, the perception is still there strangely. I can feel the 'plane' (2-dimensional plane) of whatever it is move closer & closer till it 'touches' the 'plane'of my eyes & pass beyond through the back of my head. A very strange feeling indeed, but very intriguing for me.
I, too, have these audio 'echoes', mostly voices though. Only once did I ever try to describe it to a doctor & he looked at me askance & started asking questions about schizophrenia. I never brought it up to any doctor after that.
Posted by Ritch on August 22, 2002, at 1:15:58
In reply to Re: my Tactile synesthesia descriptions » Ritch, posted by IsoM on August 21, 2002, at 14:11:16
I started checking into migraine headache prophlyaxis after my last post.
http://www.fpnotebook.com/NEU118.htmIt was interesting to find that "the most effective migraine prophylaxis medications" are:
propranolol, amitriptyline, valproic acid, and topiramate. I have been on three of the four (no propranolol). Depakote has had the most pronounced antimanic effect of any med I have taken, and I haven't had any scale distortions while I have been taking Depakote. So how does the TLE-migraine-mania thing connect together (if it does)? Interestingly, SSRI's (noted in the link above), are noted for aggravating the symptoms of migraine more often than not. SSRI's are the one group of meds that aggravate my intrusive music symptoms the worst. However, they (SSRI's) really seem to dampen down panic symptoms (only at low-doses, though).Mitch
> Yeah, Mitch, I never have had shape distortions either, just scale like you. It's the hardest thing to describe for others so when I've heard odd descriptions from others & starting asking them if it seemed like such-n-such, they'd nod excitedly, saying 'yes!'
>
> Things may still 'look' the same but 'feel' completely different. While I experienced this first at 8 or 9, I never had a migraine till I was 20 & remember it vividly as I was intrigued why I had this weird flickering pattern in my vision (scintillating scotoma). I had no pain with this first occurence but did with subsequent ones.
>
> With my first experience as a child, I could 'see' these two small rocks circling each other in the air. Sometimes they seemed to be tiny particles, other times like huge boulders. But when I tried to focus on them better, I realized that there wasn't any rocks there. I thought at that time I was simply delirious with my fever (I was a knowledgable kid then!). As I lay in bed sick, my hands resting on my stomach, they 'felt' huge, then small. My stomach felt close to my hands but also infinitely far away. The surface felt like a honeycomb of hard crusty matter but underneath, soft & spongey. It reminded me of the cap or cone of a morel mushroom (I was into botany back then in a child-like way).
>
> I still occasionlly can lie in bed in a darkened room & looking at the ceiling, I see the light fixture so close & yet oddly, infinitely far away. It can flucuate like that at times. When it's close, I could reach out without extending my arm & touch it, though I know in reality I couldn't. Sometimes, it seems like the ceiling comes closer & closer. If I close my eyes, the perception is still there strangely. I can feel the 'plane' (2-dimensional plane) of whatever it is move closer & closer till it 'touches' the 'plane'of my eyes & pass beyond through the back of my head. A very strange feeling indeed, but very intriguing for me.
>
> I, too, have these audio 'echoes', mostly voices though. Only once did I ever try to describe it to a doctor & he looked at me askance & started asking questions about schizophrenia. I never brought it up to any doctor after that.
Posted by IsoM on August 22, 2002, at 2:01:10
In reply to Re: my Tactile synesthesia descriptions » IsoM, posted by Ritch on August 22, 2002, at 1:15:58
I'll admit I'm completely baffled on how these things may connect or even if they are connected. Maybe there's more a close proximity in brain location or closeness in chromosome? I know I don't have mania but do have ADHD along with migraines, mild TLE symptoms. narcolepsy, & this 'Alice in Wonderland' syndrome. Don't understand why or how but it is interesting & keeps me wondering & reading.
Ah, but the exploration of our mind is a journey just beginning - something that I imagine will keep people learning more for many, many decades (or centuries perhaps).
This is the end of the thread.
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