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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 13, 2002, at 14:49:45
Hi All,
I think I'm back amongst the living again. Don't know why I had the nosedive, but I think it's plain reckoning with life stuff. So here's my plea for info. My brother's adopted 6 year old son has recently been dx'd with ADD along with some dyslexia. Very, very bright child, but shows all the disruptive signs of the disorder. Being adopted, we know that his birth mother did not treat herself well during the pregnancy, so there's got to be some in-utero brain harm, along with his early diet which consisted of formula. He clearly has not had necessary EFA's. I've heard that fish oil helps, but have not heard any true to life accounts. Any experience out there with this? I'd appreciate it alot.Oh, the fish oil is definitely helping me. Some WILD, I mean whoa, off the wall epic dreams, though. In fact I remember quite clearly from last night's dream a deep stentorian voice telling me I was now living alternate realities in my day/night life, and so I must 'abide if I slip back and forth'. Hmmmm. Pretty wild stuff. But I like it. - BarbaraCat
Posted by Shawn. T. on July 13, 2002, at 15:28:29
In reply to Fish oil and children's ADD? Need advice., posted by BarbaraCat on July 13, 2002, at 14:49:45
http://www4.infotrieve.com/search/databases/detailsNew.asp?artID=30201259
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 13, 2002, at 23:47:08
In reply to A recent study says no., posted by Shawn. T. on July 13, 2002, at 15:28:29
Thanks for the link. The study didn't seem to include EPA, however. I feel that there's a synergistic effect of EPA/DHA, and who knows what else in the whole fish is contributing vs. the isolated substances. I guess my nephew's response to it will be the best test.
Posted by Shawn. T. on July 14, 2002, at 1:01:54
In reply to Study was DHA only » Shawn. T., posted by BarbaraCat on July 13, 2002, at 23:47:08
Thanks so much for that tip. I appreciate your prompt response. I will let your nephew deal with this issue.
Shawn
Posted by ggg on July 17, 2002, at 23:34:47
In reply to Study was DHA only » Shawn. T., posted by BarbaraCat on July 13, 2002, at 23:47:08
Also, the study only used 345 mg a day. I don't know whether or not this had an impact on the results (especially since it was fairly long, 4 months), but I know more than a few people who take several grams of DHA and EPA a day.
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 18, 2002, at 0:12:25
In reply to Re: Study was DHA only, posted by ggg on July 17, 2002, at 23:34:47
Yes, I'm taking around 12 grams. The proof will be if I'm able to decrease my Remeron to nothing. I've never been able to go more than 6 months without an AD, so this will be interesting. Probably won't be able to go off lithium or another mood stabilizer, but you never know.
> Also, the study only used 345 mg a day. I don't know whether or not this had an impact on the results (especially since it was fairly long, 4 months), but I know more than a few people who take several grams of DHA and EPA a day.
Posted by Pogo on July 19, 2002, at 22:53:49
In reply to Fish oil and children's ADD? Need advice., posted by BarbaraCat on July 13, 2002, at 14:49:45
I just bought a book that explains the different sub types of ADD, there's six of them. The book describes symptoms associated with each type, as well as treatment alternatives-using meds, supplements, diet\exercise."Healing ADD. The Breakthrough Program That Allows You to See and Heal the
6 Types of ADD", Daniel G. Amen, M.D.Fish Oil is a suggested remedy for a sub type.
Symptoms of the sub types can be quite severe.
on line test of ADD types:
http://www.amenclinic.com/ac/addtests/subtype1.asp
Book Endorsement: -Joan BaezThe answer my friends is blowing in the wind.
The answer is blowing in the wind.
Posted by Shawn. T. on July 21, 2002, at 19:36:08
In reply to Re: Fish oil and children's ADD? Need advice. » BarbaraCat, posted by Pogo on July 19, 2002, at 22:53:49
Could you tell me if he suggests taking magnesium? For which sub-types?
Shawn
Posted by Pogo on July 22, 2002, at 16:31:49
In reply to Re: Fish oil and children's ADD? Need advice. » Pogo, posted by Shawn. T. on July 21, 2002, at 19:36:08
there's no specific mention of magnesium.type 1: classic add
type 2: inattention
symptoms: distracted, inattention, hyperactivem
daydreamy, bored, sluggish, spacey
meds:adderall, ritalin, dexedrine, cylert
supplements: l-tyrosine
type 3: overfocused
symptoms: worries, lock on negative thoughts,
compulsive behavoir, trouble shifting
attention.
meds: serotonin-enhance drugs- ie prozac, may need
stimulant
supplements: st. john wort, 5-hp, l-tryptophan,
inostal with l-tyrosinetype 4: temporal lobe
symptoms: temper, rage, confusion, panic, mild
paronoid, dark thoughts, memory
meds: anticonvulsants- depakote
supplements: gaba, ginko biloba, vitamin e,
piracetam, phosphatidyl serinetype 5: limbic
symptoms: moodiness, low energy
meds: stimulating ad
supplement: dl-phenylalanine, l-tyrosine, sam-etype 6: "ring of fire"
symptoms: too much brain activity. aggressive,
cyclic moods, mean, appears anxious
meds: anticonvulsants or antipsychotic
supplements: gaba, omega-3
Posted by McPac on July 23, 2002, at 18:53:13
In reply to Re: Fish oil and children's ADD? Need advice. » Shawn. T., posted by Pogo on July 22, 2002, at 16:31:49
"type 6: "ring of fire"
symptoms: too much brain activity. aggressive,
cyclic moods, mean, appears anxious
meds: anticonvulsants or antipsychotic
supplements: gaba, omega-3">>>>>>>>>>>These symptoms are the same for many bipolars........so how the Hell would somebody ever know if they had this type of ADD or bipolar????????????
Posted by Pogo on July 23, 2002, at 20:11:26
In reply to Re: Fish oil and children's ADD? Need advice., posted by McPac on July 23, 2002, at 18:53:13
>>>>>>>>>>>These symptoms are the same for many bipolars........so how the Hell would somebody ever know if they had this type of ADD or bipolar????????????
excerpt from the book may answer your
question(?s)."Differentiating "Ring of Fire" ADD from bipolar disorder is generally difficult in children and easy in adults. In children bipolar resembles severe add. Bipolar children tend to be cyclic in mood with behavior problems. At times the bipolar child is aggressive and irritable, other times they are calm with relatively normal behavior.
Contrasted to the ADD "Ring of Fire" kids, which tend to have the set of problems on a more consitent basis.
Adults with bipolar disorder have manic episodes,
while symptomatic Ring of Fire ADD people do not. Their ADD behavior tends to be consistent over longer periods of time. One can have both and some studies suggest that as many as half of the people with bipolar also meet the criteria for ADD.Patients with bipolar do not have the underlying core symptoms of ADD. In addition, their symptoms appear and disappear in a cyclic fashion. If the core symptoms are present over a long period of time, ADD must be suspected. We see "Ring of Fire"
pattern so commonly in our ADD patients that we feel it is a distinct ADD type and comfortable describing it as a distinct disorder."more info is found in www.brainplace.com.
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 23, 2002, at 23:38:25
In reply to Re: Fish oil and children's ADD? Need advice. » McPac, posted by Pogo on July 23, 2002, at 20:11:26
I have to echo Mike's frustration with how do you tell the difference. Not so much between ADD and bipolar, but bipolar and the different subtypes of depression. Agitated depression or depression with comorbid GAD looks so much like bipolar mixed states. While I agree with the definition of ADD being pretty much consistent, bipolars do not have to have yin and yang mania/depression cycles. In fact, many bipolars have mainly depression, but are labled bipolar because of a few manic episodes. Then there's the difference between classic bipolar depression which is heavy and empty, and the particularly dangerous mixed states. This is me, or so I've come to think. My mixed states bipolar hells are black despairing anguished and terrifying long-term depressions with precious few bouncy hypomanias. But then again I could very well have ADD running along side it because my life is always somewhat hectic and disorganized, only it gets much worse at times - but wait, maybe it's really GAD which is ALSO a contstant condition, much like ADD. And Lord knows, feeling tweaked out from GAD can sure make a person twitch and not sit still and lead to breakdowns.
With all repect to Dr. Amen and all the others who are valiantly attempting to define the myriad aspects of an affective disorder, where does the slicing and dicing stop? It must be horribly frustrating for the pdocs who have to come up with something to call it for the insurance companies while spending only 20 minutes with a patient every 2 months.
Some day, maybe in the 23rd Century, we'll have something analogous to Dr. Crusher's little thingie on Star Trek. You point it at the person and whoosh, everything's clear. We need to have PICTURES of the brain which will be worth at least 1,000 lables. But in my heart of hearts, I know it's the healthy reaction of my soul to the wasteland we're creating in our lives and on our planet. - BCat
Posted by Pogo on July 24, 2002, at 10:04:52
In reply to Re: Fish oil and children's ADD? Need advice. » Pogo, posted by BarbaraCat on July 23, 2002, at 23:38:25
With all repect to Dr. Amen and all the others who are valiantly attempting to define the myriad aspects of an affective disorder, where does the slicing and dicing stop?
***
It seems to me, Dr. Amen and the likes are concerned with treating symptoms. He decribes conditions, symptoms, gives brain scans to illustrate, then labels them into a differentiated sub type. He follows with treatment alternatives. He seems to me to be trying to help people mitigate or eliminate the symptoms as described. I thought the book to be pretty helpful. You feel otherwise. Whats most important to me, is I found the book to be pretty helpful. Which is the reason to post, maybe someone may find the same.
Posted by Jonathon on July 24, 2002, at 16:51:15
In reply to Re: Fish oil and children's ADD? Need advice. » Pogo, posted by BarbaraCat on July 23, 2002, at 23:38:25
barbcat
I also share in this terrible frustration.
Dr. Amen's statements cleared NOTHING up for me.
He talked about how easy to distinguish between bipolar and ADD, BUT, what if you have ADD and depression BOTH but don't know what kind of depression you have---be it bipolar, major depression, etc. Then his distinction means nothing because you are STILL left with trying to figure out WHICH KIND OF DEPRESSION you would have.
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 24, 2002, at 18:47:33
In reply to Re: Fish oil and children's ADD? Need advice. » Pogo, posted by Jonathon on July 24, 2002, at 16:51:15
Jonathan,
Yes, absolutely, Amen to that (er, maybe not Amen). I guess Dr. Amen is attempting to use all these labels to describe the differences he sees in his SPECT scans, but like you said, what if there are overlapping dysfunctions? The opposite ends of the classic bipolar/depression poles seem pretty straightforward. Major clinical depression usually means slowed down, dull empty apathetic sleep all day depressed symptoms. Classic bipolar symptoms are usually the books we read by famous people like Patty Duke, wild exhuberant creative madcap destructive frenzies. Schizophrenia in it's classic form is pretty straightforward. Things start blurring pretty badly as they move away from these clear-cut descriptions, be it bipolar, OCD, whatever.I don't care if they start naming roses after all these axes and subtypes (well, then again, maybe name weeds instead) as long as I'm getting meds that help me. But geez, all these years I've been getting SSRI's and come to find out that bipolar II's do terribly on them. Wish I'd known earlier but I didn't know I was bipolar and still don't. Wish I knew if a pstim or antipsychotic would work but sure don't want to mess around with something that serious if I don't need it. I just don't know and neither it seems does anyone else. Not that anyone is to blame, no, I don't really believe that. It all comes down to money and what the insurance companies are willing to pay. - Barbara
> barbcat
>
> I also share in this terrible frustration.
> Dr. Amen's statements cleared NOTHING up for me.
> He talked about how easy to distinguish between bipolar and ADD, BUT, what if you have ADD and depression BOTH but don't know what kind of depression you have---be it bipolar, major depression, etc. Then his distinction means nothing because you are STILL left with trying to figure out WHICH KIND OF DEPRESSION you would have.
Posted by Jonathon on July 24, 2002, at 19:39:40
In reply to Re: Fish oil and children's ADD? Need advice. » Pogo » Jonathon, posted by BarbaraCat on July 24, 2002, at 18:47:33
barbcat
"But geez, all these years I've been getting SSRI's and come to find out that bipolar II's do terribly on them."
>>>>>>barbcat, I am currently being labeled bipolar 2. Different opinions from different docs though. I have been on Zoloft, an SSRI, for 10 YEARS and I have felt GREAT on it! Could you please post me a link that says that bipolar 2's do terrible on them? I would love to copy it and take it to my doc. THANKS!!!
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2002, at 20:58:12
In reply to Re: Fish oil and children's ADD? Need advice. » Pogo, posted by Jonathon on July 24, 2002, at 16:51:15
> I also share in this terrible frustration...
When you're blocked, you're not supposed to post, so I'm going to extend your block.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, thanks.
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 24, 2002, at 22:21:43
In reply to Re: Fish oil and children's ADD? Need advice. » Pogo » Jonathon, posted by Jonathon on July 24, 2002, at 19:39:40
I don't have any posts about BP2 not doing well on SSRI's at my fingertips. In order to get a link to you I'd do a search here and on the web probably with the keywords SSRI and bipolar, but you could do this as well. I recall www.medscape.com/psychiatryhome has some stuff on it. At some point I'll do this search because others here have asked me the same thing. It's something that has become evident in the last year or two, maybe longer. Your pdoc should be aware of it.
I don't know the physiology on it and am interested in why. What I do know is that SSRI's sometimes cause real problems for BP2's with rapid cycling, anxiety, setting off mania, especially early on in the treatment. This has been the case for me. Only Remeron didn't cause panic attacks and wire me out when I was ramping up. I've also been on Zoloft (and many others) and eventually I did fine on it (6 years on Zoloft off and on), but every time I re-started after quitting for a while I'd be a textbook case of a BP2 not getting along with an SSRI. This is probably not true for everyone just like with any diagnosis.
If you're doing fine on it, don't worry about it - you're lucky. Stick with what works for you. I have to watch making blanket statements in my posts assuming that this rather radical topic is common knowledge. - BCat
This is the end of the thread.
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