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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tex1 on May 2, 2002, at 8:33:39
Please read this link :
http://www.breggin.com/bzbkexcerpt.html
Best luck
Tex
Posted by n0matter on May 2, 2002, at 11:15:36
In reply to For whome is on BENZOs : read., posted by tex1 on May 2, 2002, at 8:33:39
Good information, thank you for posting. This is the sort of thing I would have liked to have been warned about years ago before I started taking these things.
Posted by tina on May 2, 2002, at 13:17:03
In reply to For whome is on BENZOs : read., posted by tex1 on May 2, 2002, at 8:33:39
Posted by n0matter on May 2, 2002, at 13:54:42
In reply to Re: Bunk.........IMHO (nm), posted by tina on May 2, 2002, at 13:17:03
Tina, I invite you to quit your benzos cold turkey for a few days, then return to the forum and share your withdrawal experiences with the rest of us. Anyone who's taken a benzo for an extended period of time should know the horror experienced when you have to go without your medication for a weekend because your Doc isn't in town to fill your script. Or when you accidentally leave your bag somewhere, prescription included, and find yourself the victim of a crippling panic attack because you can't think clearly enough to figure out what to do next. "Bunk", though a very insightful post in itself, just doesn't cut it for me. I'm assuming that your 12+ years experience has given you plenty of time to accept the drug as part of your daily life and probably inspires a defensive attitude when presented with the idea that you're quite capable of living without it should you attempt to pursue that endeavor.
Posted by crepuscular on May 2, 2002, at 14:16:24
In reply to Re: Bunk.........IMHO, posted by n0matter on May 2, 2002, at 13:54:42
i don't think *anybody* should quit cold-turkey *any* drug that has been taken for a long time - no matter what you think of it's addictive properties.
this is terrible, sadistic advice.
Posted by n0matter on May 2, 2002, at 14:37:08
In reply to Re: Bunk.........IMHO, posted by crepuscular on May 2, 2002, at 14:16:24
It's not advice. It was just a method of illustrating my point. The information in the study tex1 provided is legitimate and I can vouch for it from first-hand experience. What might be an example of poor, although inadvertant, advice would be for people to read that a 12+ year klonopin user is so secure with their prescription that they up and decide to take it themselves, completely ignoring the potential validity of the study tex1 provided. It's not "bunk". It IS addictive. It DOESN'T cure whatever it is that's giving you the anxiety in the first place. And the withdrawals ARE horrible.
Posted by Alan on May 2, 2002, at 14:58:22
In reply to Re: Bunk.........IMHO, posted by n0matter on May 2, 2002, at 13:54:42
> Tina, I invite you to quit your benzos cold turkey for a few days, then return to the forum and share your withdrawal experiences with the rest of us. Anyone who's taken a benzo for an extended period of time should know the horror experienced when you have to go without your medication for a weekend because your Doc isn't in town to fill your script. Or when you accidentally leave your bag somewhere, prescription included, and find yourself the victim of a crippling panic attack because you can't think clearly enough to figure out what to do next. "Bunk", though a very insightful post in itself, just doesn't cut it for me. I'm assuming that your 12+ years experience has given you plenty of time to accept the drug as part of your daily life and probably inspires a defensive attitude when presented with the idea that you're quite capable of living without it should you attempt to pursue that endeavor.
______________________________________________
No one is advocating cold turkey on bzd's.
And the results of disontinuing one's ssri (paxil), antiepileptic, mood stabiliser, even antihypertensive? Discontinuation syndromes! - as seen plastered all over this and other anxiety bboards. All psychotropic drugs need to be tapered as it turns out - a phenomenon not exclusive to BZD's. And most do not have any trouble tapering their drugs. There are a subset for each drug that will have trouble irrespective of the drug. Not to invalidate those people's experience but the "addiction" issue is a red herring and is not eclusive to BZD's.TOLERANCE does NOT = "addiction". Addiction is reserved for narcotics, alcohol, etc. PLEASE read my link about addiction vs, dependence:
http://panicdisorder.about.com/library/weekly/aa031997.htm
Also a very wise elizabeth of this bboard wrote her own version:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010618/msgs/67768.html
These kind of distinctions are made in medicine every day. Don't overlook them and rely on this "Dr. Breggin" or any other of these anti-BZD sites representing the cult fringe with their half truths and innuendo. Otherwise you will become not only the victim of your disease but the victim of scare tactics diabling one even further regarding freedom of choice when it comes to psychpharmotherapy.
Breggin's is a very strident, political and moralistic group along with all of the other anti-bzd, anti-med, anti, choice groups.
You either believe the science and vast clinical experience or you don't.
Alan
Posted by Alan on May 2, 2002, at 15:04:14
In reply to Re: Bunk.........IMHO, posted by n0matter on May 2, 2002, at 14:37:08
>posted in another thread by n0matter:
> I believe I was improperly diagnosed and mistreated years ago and am currently benzo-dependent because of this. I constantly struggle against the idea of having to take these for the rest of my life. It's very self-defeating. And, while I agree with Alan re: the fact that these drugs don't CURE an affliction but merely help in controlling the symptoms, I do believe that the purpose intended in alleviating these symptoms is to allow us to root out the cause of our condition and resolve it. There was a time when the majority of us didn't have our depression, anxiety, OCD, etc. I was always under the impression that the ultimate and most favorable of scenarios involved us rediscovering that time and that way of thinking. Not finding a pill that masks our problems and being content with taking it for the rest of our lives.
_______________________________________________Perhaps it's the misprescribing and mismanagement at fault, not the drug itself as you say. It takes a great amount of knowledge to know when to prescribe these meds and effort in follow up continuing to manage them..
But I guess the question then becomes after you are finally through discontinuing it, what is the strategy for managing one's own anxiety? Actually, BZD's ARE used short term while one can get their head screwed on straight to be able to sort things out enabling them to go through therapy, whatever, to get to some roots of the problem, practice CBT and the like.
Unfortunately for a lot of us, the disorder/disease is biologically or familial based and trying to go off BZD's is the eqivalent of trying to go off insulin for diabetes, etc. So the return of symptoms is practically guaranteed (along with the hassle of withdrawing) so one is better off staying on the med in the first place.
Alan
Posted by kid47 on May 2, 2002, at 16:03:45
In reply to Re: Bunk.........IMHO (nm), posted by tina on May 2, 2002, at 13:17:03
Do I recall this particular doc as being considered a little "off the beam." I think Cam wrote about him once. Someone help me out here.
PS I have been taking bezos prn for about 3 years. I don't see why they can't be accepted more readily as lifelong treatment for those who need it. As long as a body doesn't exhibit dangerous drug seeking behaviour, why not. Is there a down side? Tina I'm with you. Klonopin has been the ONLY pmed to do its job without crippling side fx. My 2 cents
Posted by johnj on May 2, 2002, at 16:25:48
In reply to Re: Bunk.........IMHO, posted by n0matter on May 2, 2002, at 14:37:08
So, since insulin doesn't "cure" a diabetic they should wean off since they are medically "addictive"? Sorry, not buying it. Panic, anxiety is not wished away and it is real and as scary as anything I have ever felt. Next time you "need" your med remember you REALLY don't need it. Sorry, but I feel like crap today.
Posted by n0matter on May 2, 2002, at 16:41:04
In reply to OK, what about this (nomatter), posted by johnj on May 2, 2002, at 16:25:48
John, I didn't NEED my med until I was 19. Why not? Who knows. But I'd sure as hell like to find out. If it's possible for me to lead an anxiety-free(or at least under control) life without being dependant on medication, why wouldn't I want to pursue that? Disregarding my own thread above about conforming to a pill-fortified lifestyle, I must force myself to challenge the idea that this is "just the way things have to be...forever." If you want to believe that you were born destined to take benzodiazapines, that's fine. But lets not forget the fact that essentially every foreign, unnatural chemical introduced into the body will have some unfavorable side effects.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 2, 2002, at 17:17:38
In reply to Re: Bunk.........IMHO, posted by n0matter on May 2, 2002, at 14:37:08
> I'm assuming that your 12+ years experience has given you plenty of time to accept the drug as part of your daily life and probably inspires a defensive attitude
> It DOESN'T cure whatever it is that's giving you the anxiety in the first place. And the withdrawals ARE horrible.
Please don't be sarcastic, jump to conclusions about others or their experiences, post anything that others could take as accusatory, put others down, or exaggerate or overgeneralize. Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by Phil on May 2, 2002, at 17:51:48
In reply to Re: Peter Breggin M.D., posted by kid47 on May 2, 2002, at 16:03:45
It also shows how the information generated by scientific research, as well as forensic evidence, can be twisted by the unscrupulous and the ignorant. Most disturbingly, it is another example of the farcical nature of the judicial process as currently practiced in the US (not to say we're the worst, just that it ought to be better).
No suprise to see Peter Breggin among the professional witnesses. They way this man profits from pseudoscience, post hoc fallacy, the frailty of the mentally ill, and the ignorance of the general public is disgusting. If there were such a thing as justice, he would have spent all his ill-gotten cash on legal bills attempting to defend himself from liability. And he would have lost.
>
> This shows why law is an art and medicine is a science. - Cam W.
Phil
Posted by Alan on May 2, 2002, at 21:25:40
In reply to Re: Peter Breggin M.D.}}kid47 Cam's post, posted by Phil on May 2, 2002, at 17:51:48
Lets try to make this issue about the saftey and efficacy of bzd's (about the medicine), not about a personality. It's so much bigger than that.
The points I would like to make are all contained in the links I've posted and also the not so subtle hint that ssri's are currently the commercially driven rage for certain anxiety disorders. Well the standard company line for these AD's is that they are not "habit forming" - seen the zoloft and paxil commercials?
As it turns out these companies are being sued because initial research illustrated a tolerance (euphemistically known as poop out) and withdrawl (euphemistically known as discontinuation syndrome) and patients are mad as hell that the companies didn't disclose these facts or were overruled by other factions inside the company NOT to present the tests for approval to the FDA that demonstrated this. The company can choose which clinical trials are most favorable and toss the rest out without ANYONE knowing what those results were - no kidding.
So that's why one has the push by the major pharms and their CEO's and boards to recoup R & D for these ssri's and the first med to go down? The old fashioned OFF BRAND CHEAPER BZD! A sitting duck! So what do the skewed results translate to the patient? Presentation by the doctor of 1 med, an ssri, at the exclusion of the most successful anxiolytic of all time.
The patient doesn't know any better, sometimes the doctor doesn't know any better - they're just a subject of the onslaught - and the patient gets the raw deal in the end. Go through 5 different AD's. No luck or only partial response? - must be the patient. Go to a mood stabiliser or change the diagnosis. Response incomplete? Now start the antipsychotics up - Zyprexa, etc - even in small doses, increased side effects of TD for God's sake! All because of pure unadulterated benzophobia! Now that's making crazyness by the industry, the docs that don't make the distinction between addiction and medical dependence, and those that are too damn lazy to follow up on someone taking a "minor" controlled substance for fear of covering their ass.
Things are presently way out of balance in the world of psychopharmocolgy. You HAVE to go to someone that understands the anxiety disorders for a proper diagnosis, a pdoc that understands these medicines and how to prescribe them, and a doc that cares enough to take the time to follow through with your treatment and help you learn to manage your medication, that's all. Otherwise your are not giving yourself an EQUAL CLINICAL TRIAL for both medicines. They deserve to be compared on a level playing field if one is going to be given ALL of the information available to the patient. Isn't that the battle cry? Full disclosure so that WE can make up our own minds what makes us feel better, not a doctor that's an idealogue or goes by charts in a book or reads the prescribing info of the drug only.
End of rant.
Alan
Posted by johnj on May 2, 2002, at 21:57:46
In reply to Re: OK, what about this (nomatter), posted by n0matter on May 2, 2002, at 16:41:04
I didn't need any meds until I was 27, and why it happened I sometimes still wonder. I would LOVE to lead a med-less lifestyle. But right now I am struggling and if need to take something to get to sleep so I can go to work the next day and actually function I won't apologize. I am searching for alternate methods right now but the fact is without the meds I wouldn't be here right now. If you find something that works let me know I am open to anything within reason. Take care.
John
Posted by Phil on May 3, 2002, at 6:49:08
In reply to Re: BZD's, posted by Alan on May 2, 2002, at 21:25:40
Someone asked for Cam's post on Breggin. As far as I'm concerned, I would take Cam's advice over anyone's that's ever posted on babble. I've taken Clonazepam for about 5 years. Great drug.
I just feel the urge to point out Breggin's motives. Not to change the subject.
Posted by kid47 on May 3, 2002, at 16:00:15
In reply to Re: Peter Breggin M.D.}}kid47 Cam's post, posted by Phil on May 2, 2002, at 17:51:48
Posted by Squiggles on May 3, 2002, at 16:30:35
In reply to Re: Peter Breggin M.D.}}kid47 Cam's post, posted by Phil on May 2, 2002, at 17:51:48
Hi Cam,
The reference to Peter Breggin caught my eye.
That's because I know of his work through
my stay at Benzoland.Well, first I have to disagree with you
on the medicine point; I don't think medicine
is a science (maybe it should be) - I really
think it's an art, and in the case of psychiatry
possibly a very poorly practiced art.Anyway, to see this perspective on Breggin
is interesting. I noticed that he recently
won a suit for tardive dyskinesia for something
like $7 million dollars. I also just heard
(I live in CANADA) of a poor kid who was crushed
by a falling soccer stand, and won something
like six hundred and seventy-thousand dollars
in damages from the city (it may go up). My
husband said that is the difference between
the States and here - but you see the discrepancy.Anyway, what matters is not so much the money,
but that people who suffer from drug damage
are represented. I guess that is what he is doing.What I am curious about, is the statistics
on this matter of say how many benefit from
Prozac and how many are damaged -- this is something
I have not been able to find out on the net.
I think that it might be telling if the great
majority of Prozac takers do not suffer these
horrible effects - though that would not be legally
significant.Squiggles
Posted by Phil on May 3, 2002, at 17:02:39
In reply to Re: Peter Breggin M.D.}}kid47 Cam's post, posted by Squiggles on May 3, 2002, at 16:30:35
This was a post of Cam's from, I think, sometime last year. kid47 wanted to see it.
Posted by tina on May 3, 2002, at 23:44:06
In reply to Re: Bunk.........IMHO, posted by n0matter on May 2, 2002, at 13:54:42
> Tina, I invite you to quit your benzos cold turkey for a few days, then return to the forum and share your withdrawal experiences with the rest of us. Anyone who's taken a benzo for an extended period of time should know the horror experienced when you have to go without your medication for a weekend because your Doc isn't in town to fill your script. Or when you accidentally leave your bag somewhere, prescription included, and find yourself the victim of a crippling panic attack because you can't think clearly enough to figure out what to do next. "Bunk", though a very insightful post in itself, just doesn't cut it for me. I'm assuming that your 12+ years experience has given you plenty of time to accept the drug as part of your daily life and probably inspires a defensive attitude when presented with the idea that you're quite capable of living without it should you attempt to pursue that endeavor.
I can go without it for days even weeks at a time. I've never experienced physical withdrawals when stopping it for any extended period of time. PRN means as needed. If you're smart about using it, you don't get withdrawal. It's only if you let IT control YOU that it gets sticky.
Oh, and why would I ever want to get off of it permanently and live my life without it? If it works, don't mess with it is my philosophy.T
This is the end of the thread.
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