![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by paxvox2000 on April 29, 2002, at 20:04:39
OK, here's the deal. I can't get to sleep at night, even with Tranzene, Have run the board on "mood stabilizers" from my Pdoc, but HATED them all (except Trazodone, however that exacerabted a urinary problem I have). Soooooo... I have gotten back on Ambien from my GP (he knows the other meds I am taking from Pdoc).
Problem: because of the very short half-life of Ambien (Sonata also) I can GET to sleep, but wake up about 4 hours later, and then wake, sleep on about a one hour cycle the rest of the night. I have tried splitting the Ambien dose, and tried adding another 5mg the first time I wake up (this has been on my own, w/o doc's knowledge). But I can't continue to up the dose w/o letting him know about it.
Question: Who else has this kind of problem with Ambien or Sonata? What have you done about it? I had taken Ambien before for several years when I had a different sleep schedule (I could stay in bed much later)w/o this having been a real problem. However, I wonder; is it better to get that 4 hours sleep, then struggle the rest of the night, or should I back off the Ambien, and try something else? If anyone says the latter, what else would you suggest I ask about? My Pdoc, as I have said, has tried at least 4 -5 other meds to help me sleep. Most I REALLY did not like: Neurontin, Depakote (UGGGHHHH!!!!) Topamax, Trazodone (as I mentioned was OK except for the urinary problem).
I really don't know what to do about this. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks!
PAX
Posted by johnj on April 29, 2002, at 22:23:34
In reply to Ambien and other chimera, posted by paxvox2000 on April 29, 2002, at 20:04:39
It is great for sleep, but I don't seem to be able to handle the grogginess of it. Some people have benefited greatly from it. Sorry if you already have tried this I am in the same boat and trying to find the right meds to stablize me. Take care .
John
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on April 29, 2002, at 22:40:52
In reply to Have you tried remeron?, posted by johnj on April 29, 2002, at 22:23:34
You could use Remeron 15 mg or possibly 7.5 mg as your sleeping pill.
The only problem is that the anti-histamine sleeping pill effect lasts into the next day, just about all day long. I always felt terrible all day long the next day after using Remeron 15 mg as an occasional sleeping pill, although it always did put me to sleep about an hour after taking it- probably one of the strongest sleep inducing pills out there w/ little tolerance compared to Ambien/Sonata. Remeron, for sure is much stronger than the lousy Sonata 10 mg i'm taking now!You might try a high dose of Halcion (Triazolam)- that is a pretty wicked benzodiazepine sleeping pill. I took 2 mg once & it knocked me out for a long very long time & when I awoke I couldn't walk, my pupils were as wide as saucers, & I was slurring my words like I was in a 14 drink drunken stupor! I stumbled downstairs to eat some Golden Grahams cereal & poured the milk into the cereal box & started eating it!
I don't think doctors prescribe it as much as when it first came out because (like Rohypnol/Flunitrazepam which has never been sold in the U.S.) it seems to cause temporary amnesia while it is working, as a side effect. It does, like Ambien, wear off fairly/moderately quickly, but I guess if you wake up in the middle of the night you could always take another one.
Soma, the muscle relaxer, also has a strong sedative effect & is good if you have muscle pain or spasms.
There is always the barbituates like Seconal, but you don't want to end up like Marilyn Monroe & countless others!
3 Beers...............
Posted by judy1 on April 30, 2002, at 0:27:05
In reply to Ambien and other chimera, posted by paxvox2000 on April 29, 2002, at 20:04:39
Posted by fachad on April 30, 2002, at 11:26:55
In reply to Ambien and other chimera, posted by paxvox2000 on April 29, 2002, at 20:04:39
I've been exploring that same problem over the past few months. First, although YMMV, let me tell you that some people say that Ambien is less likely to promote dependence, for me that was not true. Ambien was never reinforcing, but when I stopped I could not go to sleep without it.
When I started Ambien, I had a sleep maintenance problem but my sleep onset was fine. When I stopped Ambien, I had both sleep onset and sleep maintenance problems.
I tried Restoral (temazepam); at 30 mg a day it was not effective at all. Then I tried Ativan (lorazepam) and at 2 mg it was moderately effective, but not as good as Ambien at putting me to sleep.
So now I take 5 or 10 mg Ambien and 1 or 2 mg of Ativan and that works pretty good.
I also tried Remeron and Surmontil (trimipramine), and each of them alone worked better than the Ambien/Ativan combo, but I am very susceptible to drug induced weight gain, and both of these drugs made me gain weight very quickly.
So I'm back to the Ambien/Ativan combo for now.
I personally think it makes sense because you use Ambien to get to sleep and a longer acting hypnotic to stay asleep. The other alternative is to use a high dose long acting drug for both, and that is going to cause more problems with next day grogginess, and with long term use at a higher dose, dependence and withdrawal issues.
> OK, here's the deal. I can't get to sleep at night, even with Tranzene, Have run the board on "mood stabilizers" from my Pdoc, but HATED them all (except Trazodone, however that exacerabted a urinary problem I have). Soooooo... I have gotten back on Ambien from my GP (he knows the other meds I am taking from Pdoc).
>
> Problem: because of the very short half-life of Ambien (Sonata also) I can GET to sleep, but wake up about 4 hours later, and then wake, sleep on about a one hour cycle the rest of the night. I have tried splitting the Ambien dose, and tried adding another 5mg the first time I wake up (this has been on my own, w/o doc's knowledge). But I can't continue to up the dose w/o letting him know about it.
>
> Question: Who else has this kind of problem with Ambien or Sonata? What have you done about it? I had taken Ambien before for several years when I had a different sleep schedule (I could stay in bed much later)w/o this having been a real problem. However, I wonder; is it better to get that 4 hours sleep, then struggle the rest of the night, or should I back off the Ambien, and try something else? If anyone says the latter, what else would you suggest I ask about? My Pdoc, as I have said, has tried at least 4 -5 other meds to help me sleep. Most I REALLY did not like: Neurontin, Depakote (UGGGHHHH!!!!) Topamax, Trazodone (as I mentioned was OK except for the urinary problem).
>
> I really don't know what to do about this. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
>
> PAX
Posted by paxvox2000 on April 30, 2002, at 17:49:31
In reply to Have you tried remeron?, posted by johnj on April 29, 2002, at 22:23:34
Yes, I did try Remeron, and it made me feel "spacey" and somewhat dazzed for the whole day after taking it, so after about 4 days, I quit.
PAX
Posted by paxvox2000 on April 30, 2002, at 17:53:01
In reply to re: Remeron as a sleeping pill, also Halcion, posted by 3 Beer Effect on April 29, 2002, at 22:40:52
Yes, been on the Halcion ride before. It worked great! I slept at least 7 hours straight. Unfortunately, after a month or so into using it, I began to become more "panicky" during the day, and this, unfortunately, is one of its side effects. I think it would be OK for now and again, but I don't think I could take it (or even get someone to prescribe it)on a nightly basis.
PAX
Posted by paxvox2000 on April 30, 2002, at 17:58:15
In reply to Ambien Deliema » paxvox2000, posted by fachad on April 30, 2002, at 11:26:55
Yes, the Ambien and Ativan worked well, but my Pdoc doesn't want my on EITHER of those, and as I said, my GP WILL give them to me, but then the pharmacy has to "butt in". I understand their concern on a general basis, but I think they should mind their own business unless evidence of abuse or other illegal activity is READILY APPARENT. I let my GP know EVERY med my Pdoc has prescribed me, so I wasn't double dipping, or doctor hopping.
PAX
Posted by fachad on April 30, 2002, at 20:42:25
In reply to Re: Ambien Deliema » fachad, posted by paxvox2000 on April 30, 2002, at 17:58:15
Does your pdoc have a specific reason why he does not want you taking Ambien or Ativan? Usually pdocs are better about that than GPs.
Anyway, take a look here at a write up I recently did about the inherent Catch-22 of asking for a Controlled Substance.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020416/msgs/103521.html
Does your pdoc have any reason not to trust you, or is he just "against BZDs on General Principle"?
And about this pharmacist, what is going on? How can a pharmacist keep you from getting a prescription that is written by a Physician?
Sure, they can call the physician to verify the prescription, but if the doc, says, "Yes, I wrote that RX, please dispense and stop bothering me" they need to fill it. If they don't, I'd raise a big stink to their management. There might even be a government authority you could complain to, like a Pharmacy Board or something.
If you have an M.D. behind you, be it your GP or pdoc, and the pharmacist remains obstinate, it would be worth your while to look into that. You may spare others in your geographical area some misery, if this jerk gets reprimanded.
> Yes, the Ambien and Ativan worked well, but my Pdoc doesn't want my on EITHER of those, and as I said, my GP WILL give them to me, but then the pharmacy has to "butt in". I understand their concern on a general basis, but I think they should mind their own business unless evidence of abuse or other illegal activity is READILY APPARENT. I let my GP know EVERY med my Pdoc has prescribed me, so I wasn't double dipping, or doctor hopping.
>
> PAX
Posted by Joy on May 2, 2002, at 18:43:03
In reply to Ambien and other chimera, posted by paxvox2000 on April 29, 2002, at 20:04:39
I had the same problem with Ambien. I was awake after four hours. Also, it costs a fortune. My doc gave me some and I have insurance, but I find .05 generic Xanax and just 50 mgs of Trazodone do the trick [and very inexpensively for those who do not have insurance].
Just another note, Alazaprolam [generic Xanax] is much better for anxiety than Buspar and less than 10% of the price! I just wanted to get that out. Thanks, guys.
Joy> OK, here's the deal. I can't get to sleep at night, even with Tranzene, Have run the board on "mood stabilizers" from my Pdoc, but HATED them all (except Trazodone, however that exacerabted a urinary problem I have). Soooooo... I have gotten back on Ambien from my GP (he knows the other meds I am taking from Pdoc).
>
> Problem: because of the very short half-life of Ambien (Sonata also) I can GET to sleep, but wake up about 4 hours later, and then wake, sleep on about a one hour cycle the rest of the night. I have tried splitting the Ambien dose, and tried adding another 5mg the first time I wake up (this has been on my own, w/o doc's knowledge). But I can't continue to up the dose w/o letting him know about it.
>
> Question: Who else has this kind of problem with Ambien or Sonata? What have you done about it? I had taken Ambien before for several years when I had a different sleep schedule (I could stay in bed much later)w/o this having been a real problem. However, I wonder; is it better to get that 4 hours sleep, then struggle the rest of the night, or should I back off the Ambien, and try something else? If anyone says the latter, what else would you suggest I ask about? My Pdoc, as I have said, has tried at least 4 -5 other meds to help me sleep. Most I REALLY did not like: Neurontin, Depakote (UGGGHHHH!!!!) Topamax, Trazodone (as I mentioned was OK except for the urinary problem).
>
> I really don't know what to do about this. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
>
> PAX
Posted by paxvox2000 on May 2, 2002, at 20:34:39
In reply to Bad Pharmacist The Controled Substance Catch 22 » paxvox2000, posted by fachad on April 30, 2002, at 20:42:25
Thanks for your response. I guess the problem between the GP and the pharmacy was that he CALLED in the Ativan. Then the pharmacist told him "well, you know he's taking Tranzene from Dr. *****, why are you giving him another benzo?" And I guess that caught my GP in an embarassing situation, as our state laws (South Carolina) are very archaic in the area of even C-IV and C-V meds. So he called me back and said for me to increase my Tranzene when I had more anxiety. It had been several months since my GP wrote the Ativan originally (the first time THAT particular pharmacist didn't say squat!). So, I guess I could have pushed the issue with my GP, but I felt he was "bending" the rules by prescribing me meds (Ambien, and then the Ativan) w/o my Pdoc's knowledge. I guess that's your "doctor shopping" deal. My catch-22 is similar, because if I push my Pdoc for additional benzos, or tell him I *need* the Ambien, he may cancel my CS card altogether. Sooooo......that's my situation.
PAX
Posted by paxvox2000 on May 2, 2002, at 20:39:44
In reply to Re: Ambien and other chimera, posted by Joy on May 2, 2002, at 18:43:03
Yes, as I posted earlier, Trazodone worked OK, except that I am VERY sensitive to the anticholinergic effects of even Trazodone. I have a urinary retention problem due to chronic prostatitist. BUT...that combo of Traz with a benzo at low dose WAS OK for sleep. I guess I have to weigh one "evil" against another. I like that Ambien puts me out, but hate that it wakes me up too early. Thus, the ugly two-headed monster.
PAX
Posted by Elizabeth on May 3, 2002, at 2:18:32
In reply to Ambien and other chimera, posted by paxvox2000 on April 29, 2002, at 20:04:39
> OK, here's the deal. I can't get to sleep at night, even with Tranzene, Have run the board on "mood stabilizers" from my Pdoc, but HATED them all (except Trazodone, however that exacerabted a urinary problem I have). Soooooo... I have gotten back on Ambien from my GP (he knows the other meds I am taking from Pdoc).
Hi. How much Tranxene did you try taking? My father uses that one. Trazodone is considered an antidepressant (not a mood stabilizer) -- I found that it just stopped working every few days and I kept having to raise the dose.
> Problem: because of the very short half-life of Ambien (Sonata also) I can GET to sleep, but wake up about 4 hours later, and then wake, sleep on about a one hour cycle the rest of the night.
I have the same sort of problem. I wish that there was a drug available that acted like Ambien, only for a longer time. The only way I know of to deal with it is, when you wake up in the middle of the night, to take either Sonata, or another dose of Ambien. (Sonata is even shorter-acting.) A full dose, not half. For me, this would mean taking 40 mg of Ambien each night -- 120 pills a month. Most pdocs don't seem to be aware that some people need to take 20 mg, not 10, so I'm pretty much screwed if I want to get decent sleep. (Sorry, ranting.)
Once I got the depression really under control, the early-morning awakening stopped happening so often. It's still a problem, but less of one.
You could try using a sedating tricyclic (e.g., doxepin or trimipramine). Many antihistamines can also help with sleep (e.g., Atarax; and don't forget good old Benadryl). I think that at least one of these two options should work for you, since the trazodone worked. If not, there are other things you can try. Some people use antipsychotics to sleep -- I'd suggest Seroquel, probably, if you're looking in that direction. Clonidine and melatonin are also sometimes used for insomnia with success. (A lot of kids with ADD take clonidine at bedtime and it helps them; I'm not sure what an effective dose would be for an adult, though.) There are probably a bunch of other things but that's all I can think of.
-elizabeth
Posted by Iago Camboa on May 3, 2002, at 8:31:05
In reply to Re: Ambien and other chimera » paxvox2000, posted by Elizabeth on May 3, 2002, at 2:18:32
> Problem: because of the very short half-life of Ambien (Sonata also) I can GET to sleep, but wake up about 4 hours later, and then wake, sleep on about a one hour cycle the rest of the night.
Hi Elizabeth. So nice to 'have' you back at PB!
Please allow me to put forth that it is my experience that 5mg Ambien + .5mg Xanax is better than 10mg Ambien, so I would suggest 10mg Ambien + .5mg Xanax may be better than 20mg Ambien, so 2x10mg Ambien + 2x.5mg Xanax would 'defeat' even Your Ladyship's worst insomnias... Why not just give it a shot?
And if it is URGED that this method does not improve on the old one, then the answer is by pointing out that 10 mg Ambien + a 'certain' (small, take care kid!) amount of alcohol will be much better (as far as fighting insomnia is concerned) than 20 mg Ambien, and another 10mg Ambien after 4 hours (without any alcohol this time) will put to sleep even insomnia itself for the next 4+ hours. Just thinking aloud... And please don't forget to drink a 'wide-awake' coffee at wake up (or, better still, 5mg d-1-phenyl-2-aminopropane sulfate!).Yours,
Iago
Posted by Elizabeth on May 6, 2002, at 19:42:05
In reply to Re: Ambien and other chimera » Elizabeth, posted by Iago Camboa on May 3, 2002, at 8:31:05
Hi Iago....
> Please allow me to put forth that it is my experience that 5mg Ambien + .5mg Xanax is better than 10mg Ambien, so I would suggest 10mg Ambien + .5mg Xanax may be better than 20mg Ambien, so 2x10mg Ambien + 2x.5mg Xanax would 'defeat' even Your Ladyship's worst insomnias... Why not just give it a shot?
("Ladyship???" :-?)
I've tried various linear combinations of Xanax (or Klonopin) and Ambien. 10 mg Ambien + 0.5 mg Xanax isn't even noticeable to me; certainly it's not more effective than 20 mg Ambien. 20 mg Ambien + 1-2 mg Xanax is fairly effective for insomnia (though Klonopin, Tranxene, or Dalmane might be a better choice than Xanax); but I hesitate to try taking benzos on a regular basis for insomnia. The odds that I'd become tolerant are overwhelming, and aside from acute withdrawal symptoms, long-term benzo use can also cause EEG changes that persist for a long time after discontinuing the drugs. I don't think it's worth the risk.
> And if it is URGED that this method does not improve on the old one, then the answer is by pointing out that 10 mg Ambien + a 'certain' (small, take care kid!) amount of alcohol will be much better (as far as fighting insomnia is concerned) than 20 mg Ambien, and another 10mg Ambien after 4 hours (without any alcohol this time) will put to sleep even insomnia itself for the next 4+ hours.
I don't drink, except on those rare occasions when there's decent wine at the table (then I'll sometimes have 1/2 glass). Anyway, surely you know that drinking at night causes rebound insomnia. This strategy has quite a lot of potential to do more harm than good!
> Just thinking aloud... And please don't forget to drink a 'wide-awake' coffee at wake up (or, better still, 5mg d-1-phenyl-2-aminopropane sulfate!).
I'm a little rusty, but shouldn't that be d,1-methylphenethylamine? (I don't do that one either, anyway.)
-elizabeth
Posted by Iago Camboa on May 7, 2002, at 6:52:03
In reply to Re: Ambien and other chimera » Iago Camboa, posted by Elizabeth on May 6, 2002, at 19:42:05
Hi Elizabeth,
So happy with your response. I really mean it. :-)
Please don't take too literally all statements I make in these 'all-important' chats: I just happen to indulge myself sometimes in being 'teasing' (or even 'annoying') to people I really like...Just let me first speak about the (chemical) designation I chose for 'dexedrine' or 'd-amphetamine'. The designation I used, though not the most common, is indeed the best designation one can find, namely '1-phenyl-2-aminopropane' is much better than '1-methylphenethylamine' (I omit the d- for 'dextro' as we both agree on prefixing it to both designations).
Let us take the first and just write the formula for 'propane' which I took as the basis: CH3-CH2-CH3; let the left carbon atom be called number 1, the one carbon in the middle will of course then be number 2 and the right carbon number 3. Things cannot be more clear. Now substitute one of the H bond to C(1)(so to speak) by the radical phenyl (-C6H5) - we have now C6H5-CH2-CH2-CH3 or 1-phenylpropane - and now substitute one of the H bond to C(2) by the 'group' amine (-NH2): you get 1-phenyl-2-aminopropane. This is transparent even to high-school children.
Now let us take the second ('1-methylphenethylamine'). You took as the basis the 'complicated and involved' group 'phenethylamine': let us write it down C6H5-CH2-CH2-NH2. Now tell me: where is position 1 where you are going to attach the methyl radical?: it seems to be in position 2(?!) beginning from the right: the formula seems not to fit to the former compound.
Of course an expert could argue that the CH3 cannot be bond to the N because in that case the compound would have been named N-methylphenethylamine so it has to be the next C the number 1. This is why people would by far prefer 'alpha-methylphenethylamine' over the 'erroneous' or at least 'very confusing' 1-methylphenethylamine you seem to prefer. But the
most simple would be by far the one I chose. I have to leave now because work calls.
Next time I will defend my point of view that it is an '(American) phantasy' the statement that benzos are addictive(??!). No they are not.
I'm (we all Europeans are) most grateful to America to have created two 'great' drugs, namely 'Prozac' and 'Viagra' but that does not mean you should now 'bedevil' the banal 'Xanax', which all the world know is almost as harmful as ... plain H2O.
And a friend of mine has drawn my attention a few weeks ago to a certain off-shore pharmacy which did 'offer' its costumers 'Ambien' and at least another hypnotic while stating at the same time they should NOT dispense 'harmful' drugs like morphine or 'Xanax'. Let me laugh...Kind regards,
Iago
Posted by katekite on May 7, 2002, at 7:14:41
In reply to Re: Ambien and other chimera » Iago Camboa, posted by Elizabeth on May 6, 2002, at 19:42:05
I'm curious how long the eeg changes persist... I have seen a bunch of references to cognitive changes with long term use but reading carefully always found so far that the person had not been discontinued from the benzo for very long, a week at most prior to testing. I'm in the midst of getting off of klonopin due to 'dullness' and so am curious about how long it will take to be the pre-benzo form of myself. -- kate
Posted by katekite on May 7, 2002, at 7:26:56
In reply to Re: Ambien and other chimera » Elizabeth, posted by Iago Camboa on May 7, 2002, at 6:52:03
Hi Iago,
I'm wondering if the american idea that benzos are addictive is more of a semantics thing. People do surely become tolerant of a dose of benzo if it is taken every day and will have withdrawal symptoms like rebound insomnia or jitters that are worse than the initial reason for taking the benzo. So I believe that one truly does becomes tolerant. I'm thinking this is what is meant by 'dependence' and 'addiction' simply because one must use it just ensure the status quo after a certain period of acclimation. In a way, this is addiction because lack of it causes withdrawal.
But the same could be said of effexor or paxil, even to a greater degree.
What I would differ with is the idea that they are addictive in terms of being commonly abused.... I'm sure a few people probably do get truly addicted to benzos but far more are addicted to alcohol and it seems the percentage who are sensitive to developing alcohol or nicotine addiction is greater.
What seems so odd that alcohol and cigarrettes have virtually no legal control while benzos have so much, in the US.
Anyhow, do you agree? 'Addictive substances' seem to include a lot of different things in the US.
kate
Posted by Iago Camboa on May 8, 2002, at 10:48:42
In reply to Re: Ambien and other chimera » Iago Camboa, posted by katekite on May 7, 2002, at 7:26:56
Hi Kate,
Please don't thank me but I have to say you are one of the most good-sensed people on PB so it is indeed a keen pleasure for me to speak directly to you.
Also I must say I've not the expertise to always use the words in their exact medico-scientifical meanings, for that Elizabeth would be a much better 'source' than I can be. So I hope she will fill in the places where I may have overused or abused such words as 'tolerance', 'addiction', 'dependence' and the like.
When I speak about 'American fantasy' about benzos I just mean the sometimes over-exaggeration that obtains in certain US circles about the 'tolerance effects' of these very useful and very safe medicines. These tolerance effects are so mild and so benign that during the last 25 years or so I've been using benzos I never had to see any doctor about any nasty withdrawal effects, or whatever difficulties in dealing with them.
I took literally 'many hundreds' (during several years of course) of those pills known in America as 'date rape pills', I of course mean the very powerful, the very safe and the very 'clean' hypnotic benzo 'flunitrazepam' (Rohypnol in Europe) and I never felt either any tolerance to that chemical, or any noticeable withdrawal symptoms.
I have more recently used diazepam/Valium everyday during more than five years without having any need to augment the daily dose and I gave it up altogether a beautiful day (substituting it overnight by Xanax) with very minor withdrawal effects (although I did experiment this time 'tremors' of the inferior members during a few weeks) which effects I delt with by myself by diminishing the doses of AD meds I was on at the same time, augmenting Xanax from 1mg/day to 2mg/day and reducing my daily input of coffee.
I now use 2mg/day (4 halves of 1mg pills roughly every 6h around the clock) and I have not the slightest concern about any tolerance to the med. Even if I augment the dose at a rate of .5mg per year (I have 5 months now of daily use without any impairment on the effects of the drug), just to allow for a 'certain' tolerance of my body to the drug, it will take 4 years before I reach 4mg/day and I have plenty of time to think about the true extent of the aforementioned (putative) tolerance.
And I should add further that Xanax is a much better choice than Valium in being a powerful anxiolytic WITHOUT sedative side effects, which is pure gold for me. I take every day 4 or 5 cups of coffee as I always did and don't need any extra aid for sleeping. I also use 112.5mg/day of Anafranil/clomipramine and never felt better.
So to sum up things: I will not deny there may be a certain tolerance (very mild in my case and with many other people I know) to benzos in sensitive people but that tolerance has IMHO been too much exaggerated namely in the US.
And if I am very sensitive to the opinion in the US, this is because I know from experience that what is now being 'cooked' by FDA & DEA may well have to be 'swallowed' 10 years later by us here in Europe...All the best,
Iago
Posted by katekite on May 9, 2002, at 9:55:24
In reply to Re: Ambien and other chimera » katekite, posted by Iago Camboa on May 8, 2002, at 10:48:42
Very true... if a regular US company can make the rest of the world want to drink Coca Cola.... think what the pharmaceutical industry can do with drugs that have more than just caffeine and sugar in them. (Though, truth be told, Coca Cola is much better than many antidepressants, at least for me, LOL).
And almost ironic that so many US citizens, me included, do something close to if not illegal when we look abroad for other medication choices, drugs that are accepted in other countries, reboxetine/moclobemide/etc.
(although I must admit that the power of the drug companies does allow for expensive research and development on drugs in general, which is a good thing long term).
kate
Posted by Iago Camboa on May 10, 2002, at 8:18:02
In reply to Re: Ambien and other chimera, posted by katekite on May 9, 2002, at 9:55:24
Hi Kate,
Cannot do any other than joining you on the excellence of Coca Cola's taste: and yes, I'm sure it is much more enjoyable than *most* psychotropic drugs! (LOL)
But just pay attention: one single obscure drug available only in a foreign country may perhaps be the difference between happiness & despair for some man or woman thousands of miles away...
Thankgod both you & me and many people on PB can be aware of and perhaps import successfully many a drug one fancies about and is only available from off-shore pharmacies (even if one sometimes do it more for the fun of cheating those pacific guys at Customs!... Let's face it: grown people also oftentimes enjoy playing like kids...), and this takes me to the next argument about law(s) in general and the rules of the 'game' in free and open societies.I am convinced the true important questions one should pose about the excellence (or inadequacy) of any country's laws are these: are people in general 'prospering' or are they rather 'starving' in that country? Do its citizens enjoy freedom (though under the law) or on the contrary live under the abject opression of an all-powerful bureaucracy installed in power? Are its 'minorities' protected by the laws or are they abused by the 'dictatorship' of the majority?
On the other hand, there does not exist such a thing of a nation where all laws are perfect and one will always find injustices and shortcomings in many laws, nonetheless in those referring to the general availability of drugs to the citizens (drugs are after all common patrimony of mankind) and the too great power in the hands of the priviledged few that (exclusively) prescribe them.>(although I must admit that the power of the drug companies does allow for expensive research and development on drugs in general, which is a good thing long term).
I agree 100% and subscribe fully to the importance of your remark.
Kind regards,
Iago
Posted by paxvox2000 on May 11, 2002, at 19:57:46
In reply to Re: Ambien and other chimera » katekite, posted by Iago Camboa on May 10, 2002, at 8:18:02
My, how stangely this thread has unwoven!
PAX
This is the end of the thread.
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