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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fachad on April 5, 2002, at 11:20:43
Do most people "Like" the feeling of benzos? I was really excited about starting them, and was expecting a kind of pleasant euphoria. So far I'm not very impressed. BTW, I am only taking them for sleep, I don't have anxiety at all.
First I tried Temazepam, and at 30mg I felt nothing at all and I was not able to sleep at all.
Now I have Ativan, and at 2mg, it does not really make me drowsy, but I do sleep better once I fall asleep. But before I fall asleep it gives me a very dulled, numbed feeling that I would characterize as mildly unpleasant.
Is this very common? Does it have any diagnostic significance?
I don't drink alcohol at all (don't like it either, even 1 or 2 drinks makes me feel like crap), so I expected benzos to have a powerful effect on me. Any idea why they barely affect me at moderate to high doses, even though my body has never been exposed to them before?
Posted by Bekka H. on April 5, 2002, at 14:23:47
In reply to Do Most People Like the Feeling of Benzos?, posted by fachad on April 5, 2002, at 11:20:43
Hi Fachad,
No, I don't particularly like benzos, and they are known to cause impairment of memory and learning -- not a good thing! I would say that Klonopin is probably one of the better ones, if used judiciously. The longer-acting ones, like Klonopin, are less likely to cause tolerance, and they impair memory less than the ones that have shorter half-lives. Some years ago, another benzo called Halcion made headlines due to its tendency to cause severe memory impairment/amnesia, etc. I tried it a few times in the late 1980's and, for me, it wore off very fast and caused rebound anxiety, stiff neck, extreme tension, etc. I was doing a lot of studying then, and I had extreme difficulty trying to retrieve from my memory what I had studied from one day to the next. I believe that benzos might interfere with critical periods of sleep.
Bekka
Posted by johnj on April 5, 2002, at 15:46:46
In reply to Do Most People Like the Feeling of Benzos?, posted by fachad on April 5, 2002, at 11:20:43
Well, I used to take 7.5 mg of tranxene in the morning and at night. All I did was yawn like crazy in the morning. I sometimes wish I could get that sleep without them. But, I still have troubles sleeping now and then even on a benzo. Overall, the dulled feeling is not pleasant.
Posted by geno on April 5, 2002, at 16:06:42
In reply to Re: Do Most People Like the Feeling of Benzos?, posted by johnj on April 5, 2002, at 15:46:46
Benzos do not get me high. They relax me. esp xanax, a fast acting benzo, calms one down quick, acts fast, so would be more addicting. Plus the withdrawl would be worse due to the shorter half life. For example, i wake up at 7am. I take .5mg under the tounge. I feel nerveous moresoe in the morning and through early day at work. at approx. 1 or 2pm, i could feel the xanax withdrawling from my system, i get more muscle tense, anxious, moody, less social, within like 30minutes.
I then take .1mg of klonopin, which i feel is about equal to .5mg of xanax, but bit more sedating. Klonopin kicks in 1hr after. So timing this is sorta the key. at 1pm i take the klonopin, so by 2pm, when xanax is wearing off, the klonopin kicks in. 1mg of klonopin will last me to at least midnight, but by then i take Remeron 30mg for sleep at 11oclock. So i dont feel any withdrawls from klonopin and may help with sleep in the first stages with remeron. But i have felt klonopin withdrawls, there drawn out more. Just doesnt quick bang hit you. Tapering a benzo id say.25 every 5 days or so, or week, would be the key. But why taper if there working good for anxiety.
I dont agree that benzos are so addictive. yes you may need them for anxiety, missing a dose causes withdrawls, but at 1 or 2mg of day, that isnt much. Some docs wont give ex addicts benzos. well im an ex ghb addict 24.7 for 3 yrs and alcohol. Benzos do not make me feel the same as my addictive meds. So thats why i dont abuse them. I dont take 1mg of klonopin every 2 hrs. or take 4or 6mg at once, then hence id say your addicted.PS. Are there any meds, or they should invent a medications that consists of a seratonin reuptake and gaba binding med all in one. Like an ssri and a benzo. yes studys show ssris help anxiety, but dont bind gaba sights. So how good acutally are they for extreme anxiety panic?
Some newer antiphsycotics have seratonin properties. Also i read klonopin has 5-ht properties.geno
Posted by CtrlAlt n Del on April 5, 2002, at 16:08:14
In reply to Re: Do Most People Like the Feeling of Benzos?, posted by johnj on April 5, 2002, at 15:46:46
Posted by tinaboo on April 6, 2002, at 8:19:33
In reply to Do Most People Like the Feeling of Benzos?, posted by fachad on April 5, 2002, at 11:20:43
I get that nice chilled feeling. I can actually feel my muscles relaxing and the worries just melt away. Best feeling in the world to me.
tina
Posted by djmmm on April 6, 2002, at 8:50:34
In reply to Do Most People Like the Feeling of Benzos?, posted by fachad on April 5, 2002, at 11:20:43
I hate Benzos!...I've tried Xanax and Klonopin for social anxiety...I would much rather feel stimulated than sedated (but thats me)
Posted by IsoM on April 6, 2002, at 12:38:03
In reply to Re: Do Most People Like the Feeling of Benzos?, posted by djmmm on April 6, 2002, at 8:50:34
The difference that people say they feel on BZDs just show that they're not meds for everyone. BZDs bind to GABA receptors which are inhibitory neurotransmitters. I'd hazard to say in that's what you need, then BZDs will feel good for you.
I've only tried a few - lorazepam (Ativan), alprazolam (Xanax), & clonazepam (Rivotril or Klonopin) but did feel different on each one. Clonazepam gave the gentlest effects - almost like nothing except increased calm & the muscle relaxation that goes with calmness, instead of tight, tense knotted muscles. Alprazolam is similar but muscles didn't relax quite as easily. Lorazepam makes me calm alright but very sleepy too. At no time do I ever feel dull or 'zombified' even though I also have narcolepsy. Maybe my ADHD counters any 'zombie' feelings.
Even among those who benefit from BZDs, they will experience different effects from different BZDs than others. It seems to be pretty individualistic for each.
Posted by Elizabeth on April 7, 2002, at 23:35:15
In reply to Do Most People Like the Feeling of Benzos?, posted by fachad on April 5, 2002, at 11:20:43
I don't experience benzos as euphoric. They are calming which is nice, but I don't feel high or anything on them. I don't dislike them, either. They're just, you know, useful. For me, the effect of benzos is sort of a "negative" effect -- they *take away* anxiety, rather than *adding* sedation or relaxation.
> First I tried Temazepam, and at 30mg I felt nothing at all and I was not able to sleep at all.
I'm not convinced that temazepam does *anything*! (And this is the stuff that they give prisoners on death row shortly before they're executed, supposedly to help them with the anxiety. Wouldn't a giant brick of pure Nembutal be more appropriate?)
> Is this very common? Does it have any diagnostic significance?
No.
> I don't drink alcohol at all (don't like it either, even 1 or 2 drinks makes me feel like crap), so I expected benzos to have a powerful effect on me.
I don't drink either, but I need fairly high doses of benzos. I'm not into alcohol because it just makes me tired. I dozed off at a couple of parties in college before I decided that alcohol wasn't for me. :-}
> Any idea why they barely affect me at moderate to high doses, even though my body has never been exposed to them before?
It's sometimes called "intrinsic tolerance." You're just naturally resistant to their effects, for whatever reason.
BTW, a couple of remarks about/additions to things other people have said in this thread:
Duration of action doesn't have anything to do with the tendency of a benzo to cause memory problems or tolerance.
Xanax is more potent than Klonopin, not the other way around. 1 mg of Xanax = about 2 mg of Klonopin.
Benzos bind to specific sites on what's known as the "GABA-benzodiazepine receptor complex." This increases the effects of GABA. (GABA is the main inhibitory neurotransmitter; that is, it decreases neuronal firing.) Benzos themselves don't have any direct effect on the GABA-BZD complex.
-elizabeth
Posted by Jaynee on April 8, 2002, at 11:58:59
In reply to Re: Do Most People Like the Feeling of Benzos? » fachad, posted by Elizabeth on April 7, 2002, at 23:35:15
According to the book "The Feeling Good handbook", it states that Clonazepam is the most potent benzodiazepine. It states that the "potency (clonazepam dose equivalents) is that xanax is 1/2. So 1.5 mg of xanax is the equivalent to 1 mg of Klonopin. Which makes sense to me, because the doc gave me .5 of clonazepam and I only took half of that, so .25mg of clonazepam and it was wicked, way to overpowering for me. Freaked me out really bad, had the worst panic attack on that stuff. I had alway taken ativan. So the potency of ativan to clonazepam is 1/4. So it takes about 1.75 or almost 2mg of ativan to equal 1mg of clonazepam. I wish I had know that before.
Karyn
Posted by nightlight on April 8, 2002, at 20:52:09
In reply to Do Most People Like the Feeling of Benzos?, posted by fachad on April 5, 2002, at 11:20:43
> Do most people "Like" the feeling of benzos? I was really excited about starting them, and was expecting a kind of pleasant euphoria. So far I'm not very impressed. BTW, I am only taking them for sleep, I don't have anxiety at all.
<snipped>Fachad~
In my teens, early 20's, I tried every drug (or drug category) in the book.My dad took Valium for yrs. I tried it once or twice-yeccch! it actually made me bitchy and tired.
Anxious, even. Flash 20 years forward, I am prescribed klonopin for persist muscle spasm (after trying a multitude of so-called muscle relaxants which did NOTHING, and miracle of miracles, within an hour of taking .5 t0 1 mg (I forget), my muscles are relaxed and my anxiety/tension (the core culprit) was much assuaged. But, no euphoria, no feeling of lightheadness. The garbage was simply put out and replaced a modest bunch of daisies.I still use it for anxiety (1-2 mgs daily), but it's not strong enough now to have the same effect (at this dose) to handle intensified muscle tension due to lg. amounts of additional exogenous anxiety I have encountered in the recent past.
It took 3 yrs. for an orthopedic surgeon to prescribe Soma, which is the only effective 'muscle relaxant'I have ever used. It, however, can be habit-forming and must be used w/caution.
Like Elizabeth said, if you want to 'subtract anxiety' from your gen'l immediate psych status, benzos are quite effective, but for me, no buzz-and I've also used librium and ativan at times.
Just my personal long-winded opinion~
nightlight
Posted by Elizabeth on April 11, 2002, at 12:00:32
In reply to Elizabeth: Clonazepam is the most potent benzo, posted by Jaynee on April 8, 2002, at 11:58:59
There is some disagreement about whether alprazolam (Xanax) and clonazepam are equally potent or whether alprazolam is more potent. They've never been compared head-to-head, but clonazepam isn't more potent than alprazolam. It's possible Burns is simply mistaken (that book is a self-help manual, not a drug book, isn't it?). It's also possible that you misread or misunderstood him. Regardless, clonazepam is *not* more potent than alprazolam. I don't feel like digging through books right now, but check a pharmacology text if you're interested in confirming this. Popular self-help books generally aren't a very good place to look for medical or scientific data.
I'm not familiar with the terminology you quoted or how you derived your conclusions. Maybe the quote was just unclear. Can you explain what is meant by "potency (clonazepam dose equivalents) is that xanax is 1/2" ?
Anxiety is not a common side effect of clonazepam or any benzodiazepine -- you're the only person I've ever heard of who reported it. Most people would experience mild *relief* of anxiety, and perhaps a bit of sedation, on 0.25 mg of clonazepam. Some wouldn't feel anything because it's simply too small a dose.
I take it that you've never taken alprazolam. I have tried both drugs, and alprazolam clearly produces a greater effect than clonazepam at the same dose. The total daily dose of alprazolam may be higher because alprazolam needs to be taken 3 or 4 times a day, while many people can get away with taking clonazepam just twice daily.
-elizabeth
Posted by Jaynee on April 12, 2002, at 10:41:16
In reply to Re: benzo potency » Jaynee, posted by Elizabeth on April 11, 2002, at 12:00:32
Elizabeth I am not making this stuff up, it is on page 615, table 25.1.
A quote right from his book, "The potency column compares the drugs to clonazepam, the most potent benzodiazepine." I really don't care, I am just quoting what the book said. I always thougt Xanax was the strongest benzo.
No I have never tried Xanax, Ativan and Clonazepam are the only ones I've tried. And clonazepam was awful for me. Scarred the absolute crap out of me. I will never ever take that crap again. I have a girlfriend who takes it, and she said the same thing as you. She has no problem taking it and prefers it to other benzos. All I know is I can't take Klonopin. I am glad it works for some, but I am sticking with my Ativan.
Posted by noa on April 12, 2002, at 15:37:32
In reply to Re: Do Most People Like the Feeling of Benzos?, posted by nightlight on April 8, 2002, at 20:52:09
I think some do and some don't. I don't especially like the feeling--they make me drowsy, which is what I need them for--a small dose (.25 mg ativan) to counteract the effexor-induced restless legs that interferes with sleep. But I don't feel especially good on either klonopin or ativan.
Posted by Elizabeth on April 16, 2002, at 21:03:03
In reply to Re: benzo potency, posted by Jaynee on April 12, 2002, at 10:41:16
> Elizabeth I am not making this stuff up, it is on page 615, table 25.1.
I believe you're not making it up, but it's wrong. As I said, I don't think that a self-help book is a very good place to look for drug information because they often contain errors like this one.
That's a really weird reaction you had when you tried Klonopin. Are you sure it was a reaction to the Klonopin and not something else? Regardless, I'm glad the Ativan works for you.
-elizabeth
Posted by jlo820 on August 12, 2003, at 19:37:51
In reply to Re: benzo potency » Jaynee, posted by Elizabeth on April 16, 2002, at 21:03:03
Sorry Elicabeth, but you are wrong. Klonopin is more potent that Xanax, and is in fact the most potent (along with Halcion) benzo available in the U.S.
Even Dr. Bob has a chart on the web site here:
http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/bzd.html
It takes .25 mg of Klonopin to equal 5 mg of Valium (which is the standard). It takes .5 mg of Xanax to equal the same amount of Valium.
Posted by robski on January 7, 2004, at 3:05:34
In reply to Re: LOVE my Benzos, posted by tinaboo on April 6, 2002, at 8:19:33
I've been taking Klonopin for a year and a half for anxiety and IBS (and a little HEPC thrown in for good measure).
I started with one in the morning and one at night (0.5 mg) and it worked great.
Now, no matter how many I take, I don't feel a thing unless I stop for about a week. Then I go into withdrawls.Anyone ever stop completely after taking it for so long?
Also, any suggestions for a good sleep med? Ambien tolerance bigtime (sonata even bigger). Do they still use things like phenobarbitol or Quaaludes, or are they too scared of O.D?
Robski.
Posted by scott-d-o on January 7, 2004, at 22:09:27
In reply to How long to detox from Klonopin, posted by robski on January 7, 2004, at 3:05:34
> I've been taking Klonopin for a year and a half for anxiety and IBS (and a little HEPC thrown in for good measure).
> I started with one in the morning and one at night (0.5 mg) and it worked great.
> Now, no matter how many I take, I don't feel a thing unless I stop for about a week. Then I go into withdrawls.Anyone ever stop completely after taking it for so long?
> Also, any suggestions for a good sleep med? Ambien tolerance bigtime (sonata even bigger). Do they still use things like phenobarbitol or Quaaludes, or are they too scared of O.D?
> Robski.A good rate for withdrawal from Klonopin is .5mg/day per month. Quitting cold turkey even from only 1.0mg/day is not the best idea. Reduce to .5mg/day for at least a month and then you might even want to consider taking .25mg/day for a week or so.
As for a good sleep med there is everything from Ambien to GHB (Xyrem). Try trazodone if you are looking for something with little chance for dependency. Supposedly Ambien doesn't cause dependency either, at least not in the short-term. As for 'ludes, benzodiazepines have pretty much completely replaced the barbituates since benzo's have comparable efficacy and are much safer.
Good luck.
scott
Posted by girl1969 on January 10, 2004, at 12:21:36
In reply to How long to detox from Klonopin, posted by robski on January 7, 2004, at 3:05:34
Just wanted to offer an opinion from my own personal experience. I quit klonopin cold turkey and suffered from withdrawal symptoms for about 2 months, perhaps longer. I cannot begin to describe what a painful, miserable experience it was for me. Regardless of what I did, I could not get comfortable in my own skin. I would suggest tapering down as slowly as possible.
Best of luck,
Girl
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