Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 94528

Shown: posts 4 to 28 of 34. Go back in thread:

 

Re: withdrawl symptoms

Posted by Squiggles on February 18, 2002, at 21:12:10

In reply to Re: withdrawl symptoms, posted by geno on February 18, 2002, at 20:42:43

Hi,

1.0 Klonopin is what took me a year to withdraw
from, and I did not succeed. Granted I had been
taking it for some 17 years so it may have had
a different effect on my brain than on yours.
IMHO it is a difficult drug to withdraw from possibly
because of its anti-convulsant properties; certainly
because it's equivalence to Xanax is (gaad this
varies so much according to charts) - I think a
conservative equivalence is 2 to 3x as strong.

I withdrew from Xanax 2.0 in 3 months with
relatively little trouble under the supervision
of a doctor - i had anxiety, insomnia, some
panic, dream changes, skin sensitivity, etc.

The K was a different story - I doubt that you
can substitute 0.50 X for 0.50 K even though
some charts such as those of Dr. Heather Ashton
actually have the two drugs as equivalent - gasp -
certainly I have not seen that anywhere else.
I did not succeed in reaching 0. In the end
the full dose had to be reinstated.

I have a tapering schedule which is called the
Chunk-0-Meter which you could use choosing your
own pace to taper any drug. For all benzos a rule
of thumb seems to be taper 1/10 of the dose every
month.

http://www.cs.concordia.ca/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/~staffcs/mjassels/schedule

You should however ask yourself, and your doctor
WHY you would want to get off these drugs and
whether it is appropriate for your medical condition.


Squiggles

 

Re: withdrawl symptoms

Posted by geno on February 18, 2002, at 21:36:59

In reply to Re: withdrawl symptoms, posted by Squiggles on February 18, 2002, at 21:12:10

so your saying even though i took this drug at this dose for a week, do you think thise is klonopin withdrawls? SHould i up my xanax or get back to my doc and tell him i need klonopin. Its not a panic feeling like on xanax, more like physcial pain, nerve pain, face pain shit like that, esp my teeth. how long will this last. i was on them for about 1 week?
geno

 

Re: withdrawl symptoms

Posted by Squiggles on February 18, 2002, at 22:08:38

In reply to Re: withdrawl symptoms, posted by geno on February 18, 2002, at 21:36:59

It does sound like Klonopin withdrawal;
I heard of teeth complaints on the benzo
group; and Klonopin withdrawal is notorious
for neurological effects.

I would go back to my doctor and discuss
a tapering schedule - first one drug then
another - if your doctor thinks that both
should be withdrawn from.

I am not sure what you are taking them for
so I hesitate to give any advice -

Squiggles

 

Re: withdrawl symptoms

Posted by geno on February 19, 2002, at 16:08:01

In reply to Re: withdrawl symptoms, posted by Squiggles on February 18, 2002, at 22:08:38

squiggles, yes have been using gbl(ghb) for past 2 yrs. after expereiences, muscle jerking and side effects, i read taking a low dose of a benzo stops the possible seizure like symptoms ghb can produce. So for the longest time i was taking .25mg of xanax every 5-6 hrs 2-3 daily depending on my ghb dosage, which yes is sometimes 10-20ml daily. recently 2 weeks ago, a friend of mine gave me 15 klonopin. i stopped the xanax, took .5mg of klonopin every 8hrs with the ghb. seems to work better for any convultions or twitches, but the ghb high wasnt great. so after about 10 days of klonipin .5mg 2 times a day and ghb, i switched back to xanax.25 mg 3 times a day. recently about 4 days after the klonopin stoppage, i started feeling these syptoms i described. i also ran out of ghb 2 days ago,which made me up the xanax to .5mg every 6 hrs, and still dont feel as peaceful or sedated relaxed as a should me. I feel that im still feeling klonopin withdrawls, not as bad as if i was not taking xanax or g. Using either xanax or klonopin with g, your can be prone for seirzures, esp at high doses of both. For expample, a buddy of mine was using 30-40ml of gbl with 2mg give or take of xanax a day. i warned him to at least wean the g down to 15ml and xanax to 1mg total. he didnt. well his wife found the g and xanax, and 2 hrs later he went into a 30 hr serizure.
So thats why ill never go above 1mg of either xanax or klonopin(def spaced out, never 1mg at once, unless detoxing from g, and never more than 15ml of gbl.
What im getting at, is this. If i stop ghb, which has alot of pros in my life now, an bad, ill defenitely have to take at least 2mg of xanax a day, or 2mg of klonopin. I cannot be percribed that much due to a problem i cant say why. either i get up to 1mg of xanax, or 1mg of klonopin, if i do get klonopin.

i tried gabaril and it DOES NOT sedate you, it makes you all screwed up esp at high doses i felt like i had epilepsy.

for me, benzos dont make me high, not at all. just calm me. GHB calms me,at the same times, makes me happy social, creative, etc! At least i dont drink anymore. everyone has a different veiw, but i dont wanna set my self up for a seizure of overdose. 2ml of gbl .25 of xanax never bothered me. At 1mg, and ghb, you may start slowing down breathing, etc.
geno

 

Re: withdrawl symptoms

Posted by Squiggles on February 19, 2002, at 16:18:34

In reply to Re: withdrawl symptoms, posted by geno on February 19, 2002, at 16:08:01

hi geno,

maybe this is not my best day today (having
some Synthroid problems myself) but I think
i lost you somewhere. I am really sorry
to disappoint.

First of all , I don't know what "ghb" is or
how and why it is used.

Second, 30hr seizure? don't you guys have
a phone to call 911?

And as for the effect of the benzo - yeah I agree
with that - it is not used to get you high,
on the contrary to get you low somehow, if you
are anxious for example.

I am really sorry not to be of help. May
I suggest that you take this to the benzo
group at yahoo - they know everything there is
to know about benzo withdrawal there.

(though there are varying opinions)

Squiggles

 

Re: withdrawl symptoms

Posted by geno on February 19, 2002, at 21:34:29

In reply to Re: withdrawl symptoms, posted by Squiggles on February 18, 2002, at 21:12:10

squggles, dont ask how, but i got 30 1mg klonopin, and only am perscribed .5mg of xanax a month? i dont want to over do it. should i start klonopin at .5mg am and .5mg pm starting tommorrow, and hop of xanax train, or could i use the xanax .5mg in the am, and 6-8hrs later take .5mg of klonopin to ride the night out?

any suggestions?

i read this
.5mg of xanax = 1mg of klonpin
.25 xanax = .5mg of klonpin

update me
geno

 

Re: withdrawl symptoms

Posted by Squiggles on February 19, 2002, at 21:50:14

In reply to Re: withdrawl symptoms, posted by geno on February 19, 2002, at 21:34:29

`)@@('

i'm not listening :-)

Squiggles

Benzoland - go and good luck to you;

Squiggles

 

Re: withdrawl symptoms geno

Posted by Sulpicia on February 19, 2002, at 23:21:51

In reply to withdrawl symptoms, posted by geno on February 18, 2002, at 16:48:07

withdrawal from benzodiazepines; heavy on the pharmacology
but the tables are excellent and the materials on the Virtual
Hospital site are accurate as a rule.
http://www.vh.org/Providers/Conferences/CPS/33.html

good luck, tho my preference would be to do something like
this under medical supervision.
why suffer and guess if you can avoid it?

S.

 

B E N Z O S

Posted by Squiggles on February 20, 2002, at 8:12:34

In reply to Re: withdrawl symptoms geno, posted by Sulpicia on February 19, 2002, at 23:21:51

I wish to clarify my position here on
why I refrain from benzo discussions;

I spent a couple of years at Ray Nimmo's
Benzoland, writing, researching, and myself
withdrawing from Clonazepam, and learned some things about
benzo withdrawal. I successfully got
off Xanax (really before joining that group,
with the assistance of McGill Health Centre
doctors); I was much less successful with
Klonopin (after a 2 year struggle culminating
in what must have been a seizure) - whatever
it left me pretty dysfunctional, unable to
walk, narcoleptic, sweaty, and migrained
for a month. I had to reinstate to the intitial
dose. Why it was so difficult with clonazepam
I don't really know. The dose was at its max
1.0mg (perhaps what some researchers say about
bipolars being epileptoid and needing an
anti-convulsant like clonazepam is true).

The experience was so horrible, and I have
said to those who have suggested i try it again,
that I will take ANY dose of benzos, including
a lethal one to avoid that stroke/seizure incident.

As things stand now, I would say that I regret
not having done this under supervised clinical
watch, or have gone to a detox centre. It was
my decision to get off clonazepam; my doctor
never suggested it.

In the case of clonazepam at least, I do not
personally recommend EVER getting off this drug
without your doctor watching over you, not to mention
recommending that you get off.

I hope you will excuse me if I do not jump
in to assist on benzo questions that appear here -
it is very tempting to do this having been
immersed in benzo discussions and research for
nearly two years at Ray Nimmo's site, but I think that
in view of my experience getting off and then
reinstating, you might understand why.

Thank you

(and please listen to your doctor; at least
if something goes wrong then someone will
catch you when you fall;)

Squiggles

 

What is benzoland? (nm) Squiggles

Posted by mr.scott on February 20, 2002, at 10:33:37

In reply to B E N Z O S, posted by Squiggles on February 20, 2002, at 8:12:34

 

Re: What is benzoland?

Posted by Squiggles on February 20, 2002, at 10:51:32

In reply to What is benzoland? (nm) Squiggles, posted by mr.scott on February 20, 2002, at 10:33:37

Sorry, I should not have been so presumptuous;
it is probably the largest group on the net
devoted to problems of addiction and withdrawal
from all benzodiazepines (it has many tributaries
and sub-groups); Ray Nimmo's master site is
a good entrance to the Gates of Benzoland:

Squiggles

http://benzo.org.uk/

 

Re: B E N Z O S

Posted by skills on February 20, 2002, at 14:39:59

In reply to B E N Z O S, posted by Squiggles on February 20, 2002, at 8:12:34

You mention in your text a lethal dosage of Benzo's. I have taken overdoses as much as 1500mg i.v. diazepam. I have been trying to find out the potential for fatality of Benzo's.....after a long hard struggle i have been off them for 3 months but i would love to hear that Benzo's are dangerous, and how, to make me think hard about the risks of relapse.taking into account my largley reduced tolerance now.

 

Re: B E N Z O S

Posted by Squiggles on February 20, 2002, at 15:08:26

In reply to Re: B E N Z O S, posted by skills on February 20, 2002, at 14:39:59

By "lethal", i was using poetic license to
stress how bad the head feeling was (about
1 minute of electrical/stroke activity);
I don't know the lethal dose - furthermore,
i believe it cannot be done without the
addition of alcohol.

Squiggles

 

Re: B E N Z O S

Posted by geno on February 20, 2002, at 17:06:17

In reply to Re: B E N Z O S, posted by Squiggles on February 20, 2002, at 15:08:26

squiggles, you said you were on 1.0mg of klonopin for 17 yrs. Maybe the long period is why. I only use benzos at a highter dose to detox from alcohol or ghb. So if i use 1.0mg of klonipin for a week, ill probably have 1 week of hell if stopping it. I would say, if i was taking 1mg of klonopin say for 2-3 weeks, id slowely take .75 for a week, then .5mg for a week or 2 then down to .25 for a few, if i feel horrrible, id go back up a dose, and go get help from a doctor.

Next question is, there are meds to help benzo qithdrawls, but would xanax aid klonopin withdawls or vise versay at say 1mg each?

 

Re: B E N Z O S

Posted by Squiggles on February 20, 2002, at 17:11:13

In reply to Re: B E N Z O S, posted by geno on February 20, 2002, at 17:06:17

Yes, I think the long time I was on Klonopin
may have actually changed the CNS or at least
made it difficult to bounce back to pre K - brain
status; you may not call it addiction but it
may be physical change.

I know that at Benzoland, Valium is used for
withdrawing, but frankly I have a feeling that
Dr. Ashton did not ever use Klonopin in the U.K.
where the drug was not popular.

I have a calculator there (the Chunk-0-Meter)
which allows you to go down slow without other
benzos; as for a substitute for sure some other
like Xanax would help, but i cannot advise
on dose equivalence for withdrawal.

Squiggles

 

Re: B E N Z O S (p.s. memory lapse)

Posted by Squiggles on February 20, 2002, at 17:25:01

In reply to Re: B E N Z O S, posted by geno on February 20, 2002, at 17:06:17

Hi,

I don't to mislead you too much -- actually,
I don't remeber EXACTLY when I started taking
Clonazepam, but I am pretty sure it was around
10 years ago at least.

Squiggles

 

Re: B E N Z O S (p.s. memory lapse)

Posted by geno on February 20, 2002, at 21:31:16

In reply to Re: B E N Z O S (p.s. memory lapse), posted by Squiggles on February 20, 2002, at 17:25:01

ya i forget alot, but im going through a tough time now, cant get into it, plus im recovering from alot og ghb use, which is similar to the gaba systems, so my benxo tolerance is up. .5mg used to like almost put me to sleep, now it just cuts the edge off. i supect ill need at least .5mg klonipin, but if im worked up alot, ill take 1mg. ill try .5mg first. if no go, i ll wait till friday and take 1mg. so total a day will be 1mg of klonipin, and .5mg of xanax.
geno

 

Re: B E N Z O S (p.s. memory lapse)

Posted by Squiggles on February 20, 2002, at 21:50:48

In reply to Re: B E N Z O S (p.s. memory lapse), posted by geno on February 20, 2002, at 21:31:16

I think that comparing K with X is like comparing
Grapefruits with tangerines - the K is really
powerful, and you cannot expect the X to cover you,
only alleviate the anxiety causes by w/d from
K. If you are playing with the K dose, I would
suggest that you treat it as something potent,
which it is, and use increments and decrements of
0.25 by cutting the pill. If you have not been
on it as long as I was, you may have better luck.
And if your doc. is aware there is no reason why
you cannot go to Benzoland and pick up some hints.
For the life of me I do not understand why some
alt. groups I have visited have gone bezerk when
you suggest withdrawing. If your doctor says it
is ok there is no problem imho. And there are
other benzo groups on the net as well, one with
a weird animal - looks like a Warthog - sorry
i cannot be more precise.

Squiggles

 

Re: tAPir

Posted by Dr. Bob on February 21, 2002, at 0:25:19

In reply to Re: B E N Z O S (p.s. memory lapse), posted by Squiggles on February 20, 2002, at 21:50:48

> And there are
> other benzo groups on the net as well, one with
> a weird animal - looks like a Warthog

I bet you mean "the Anxiety Panic internet resource". :-)

http://www.algy.com/cgi-bin/forums/ultimatebb.cgi
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?tapir

Bob

 

Re: B E N Z O SSquiggles

Posted by OldSchool on February 21, 2002, at 10:44:56

In reply to B E N Z O S, posted by Squiggles on February 20, 2002, at 8:12:34

Hi Squiggles, Im glad to see that you made the smart decision to return to Klonopin. Having panic disorder is a rough thing to deal with and it is probably a genetic thing. Like its "just who you are." Its probably how God made you. Sometimes we just have to take medications longterm to treat medical conditions we have and severe anxiety is definitely a medical condition.

I hope you stop fighting the benzo thing and stay away from those whacko anti-benzo people who tell you that you should get off Klonopin. Here is my honest to gosh opinion about it. So what if you are addicted to Klonopin? So what? You have panic disorder/prominent anxiety problems. Does it REALLY matter if you must take Klonopin longterm to control that?

I dont really see what the big deal is about Klonopin addiction considering the fact you also have panic in a very prominent kind of way.

Old School

 

Re: B E N Z O SSquiggles

Posted by Squiggles on February 21, 2002, at 10:58:26

In reply to Re: B E N Z O SSquiggles, posted by OldSchool on February 21, 2002, at 10:44:56

Hi Old School,

I appreciate your candour very much.


I agree with you vehemently about addiction -
who gives a hoot if there is a need for the drug. My
bone of contention is not with addiction but
with tolerance. When tolerance builds you need
more of the stuff, and when you keep taking more
of the stuff, you get more of the side effects,
and even panic (in the case of Xanax). It has
not been the case so much with Klonopin.

I am very curious about the pharmacokinetics of
K - and i know little; I know that some researchers
eg. Popoulos [sp?} believe that bp is an epileptoid
condition and therefore an anti-convulsant is
necessary - is that why I was given K? I don't know.
Also, i should tell you that it was the high
Synthroid dose that caused me panic (and if you read
the med books you will see that hyperthyroidism
leads to anxiety and panic attacks -- so this is
a loose end.

Regarding the need for K - I can say that I need now
because I get a stroke or seizure if I don't have it;
that may be a result of long-term changes in the brain
rather than a genetic predesposition, or even
the dubious epileptic nature of manic depression.
(I noticed btw that Kraeplin and his colleagues
witness a very small amount of seizure in beepers).

I trust that doctors will be frank about these matters
and work in collusion with drug companies to ferret
out the truth.

As for the Whackos - i miss Ray and David very much;
they were so cool. But yeah, I think I have some
deep disagreements with Ray, and David just left.
It's quite a group - and there are all kinds.
I've never really considered myself to be entirely
sane anyway, so who am I to discriminate one Wacko
from another. :-)


Sigh.

Squiggles

 

Re: B E N Z O SSquiggles

Posted by OldSchool on February 21, 2002, at 11:42:49

In reply to Re: B E N Z O SSquiggles, posted by Squiggles on February 21, 2002, at 10:58:26

> Regarding the need for K - I can say that I need now
> because I get a stroke or seizure if I don't have it;

Squiggles, I seriously doubt you ever had a stroke. If you had a stroke you would have had problems with walking, talking, balancing yourself, using your limbs, moving around, etc. Stroke is a medical emergency and when you have one it usually leaves you physically disabled to some degree. If you survive it that is. Also, stroke goes hand in hand with high blood pressure and Ive never heard you talk about having hypertension before.

It might have felt like you had a stroke when you went off the Klonopin, I dont doubt that. I know going off benzos can be painful as hell. Maybe when you went off the Klonopin the panic returned...panic attacks can feel like cardiovascular events. I think stroke is pushing it quite a bit. Did a doctor ever tell you that you had a stroke? They can tell quite easily if you have one of these intracranial CT scans with dye injected...I had one of these scans one time. Came back fine.

Old School

 

Re: B E N Z O SSquiggles

Posted by Squiggles on February 21, 2002, at 11:51:41

In reply to Re: B E N Z O SSquiggles, posted by OldSchool on February 21, 2002, at 11:42:49

I had been withdrawing for more than a year
on K. I had panic, diarrhea every day, myoclonic
seizures (this was dx 'd by a doctor), polyurea,
insomnia, heat fluctuations, etc. etc.

But when I approached 0.125 switching to a lower
level, I had something else. I was sitting at the
keyboard and the back of the head went electric
(feel ings of cables travelling around the head -
i had that before - we call them "eels" - but this
time they did not stop at just bobbing the head
(as when an emergency doctor dx'd them as myoclonic
jerks) --- This time, they travelled around the
head from the bottom to all over and they felt
like they burst into a fire, culminating in an
axe like hit in the back of the head.

After that, I lost memory, for about 20 minutes,
then I had trouble walking for about two weeks,
stumbling, the head was in excruciating pain, and
when my mother called my doc, she reported that I
was turning red and blue in the face. I also had
extreme sweats, and I could not lay my head on
the pillow because it hurt so much. I had migraines.
I did feel near death.

This lasted a month. The ER doc. did not see me
or give an EEG until 2 months after because I was
too ill in bed to go anywhere.

This was not withdrawal - I had withdrawal for
nearly a year and a half - bad as it was - it was
not so sudden and stroke like.

My husband helped me by getting me to reinstate
the dose forst 0.250 then to 0.50, and my doc. later
to 1.0 - now.

I don't know what it was, but as I said I was
unable to walk straight for a couple of weeks.

Squiggles

 

Re: B E N Z O SSquigglesSquiggles

Posted by Alan on February 21, 2002, at 12:44:33

In reply to Re: B E N Z O SSquiggles, posted by Squiggles on February 21, 2002, at 10:58:26

> I agree with you vehemently about addiction -
> who gives a hoot if there is a need for the drug. My
> bone of contention is not with addiction but
> with tolerance. When tolerance builds you need
> more of the stuff, and when you keep taking more
> of the stuff, you get more of the side effects,
> and even panic (in the case of Xanax). It has
> not been the case so much with Klonopin..."
>
> Squiggles
***********************************************
Sorry to interrupt but,

I agree with you on the "addiction" part because all it is is "medical dependency" just like with any other drug.

What I don't understand is why you state that xanax is more likely to build tolerance than other BZD's. What are the scientific studies, sources to back this obsevation up other than anecdotal or opinion?

Just curious.

Alan

 

Re: B E N Z O SquigglesSquiggles

Posted by Squiggles on February 21, 2002, at 12:51:36

In reply to Re: B E N Z O SSquigglesSquiggles, posted by Alan on February 21, 2002, at 12:44:33

Alan,

It is true that i am not providing statistical
or medical evidence that X is more addictive than
K. Yes - what i say is andecdotal - my anecdote,
and therefore being solitary as far as I know,
is also statistically insignificant.

However, it could be true.

I would have to do search for you; it is not
after all is if you are providing any evidence
to the contrary.

My anecdote? After 7 yrs or so on 0.25-1.0 X
I started getting panic attacks between gulping
the stuff down quick before another panic attack
came.

In the case of K whereupon my doctor decided it
was time to raise (double) the dose, something
completely different happnened - I would get
bouts of Dyspnea and double up on the bed to
get a breath; also the co-ingestion of K with
Lithium brought this on.

The picture is not complete as I had thyroid
problems as well - what can I say - I am glad to
not be a doctor!

But I could search around for the X and K dif.
in withdrawal if you like?

Squiggles


Go forward in thread:


Show another thread

URL of post in thread:


Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ


[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.