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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Rick on January 17, 2002, at 18:47:06
I just ran across the following two tidbits about Klonopin, both from August, 2000. Does anyone have any follow-up info or more background, especially about WHAT the quality control concerns were? Seems strange in light of people worrying that *generic* clonazepam may not be up to snuff.
Rick
--------
SCRIP World Pharmaceutical News, August 23, 2000 i2568 p15(1)
FDA warns Roche on Klonopin.Abstract: The US Food and Drug Administration sent a letter of warning to Roche regarding quality control of Klonopin (clonazepam). Roche has asked for a meeting with FDA officials to discuss their concerns.
--------Mental Health Weekly, August 14, 2000 v10 i32 p8
Calif. cities move to ban anxiety drug. (clonazepam aka Klonopin)(Brief Article)The anti-anxiety drug clonazepam (Klonopin) has become the target of several California cities along the Mexican border because it has become a popular recreational drug among youths, APB News reported last month. Several communities, including Chula Vista, have passed laws making use of the drug illegal without a prescription. Law enforcement officials add that some rapists are using drugs such as clonazepam to subdue their victims.
"Besides your typical marijuana and alcohol, this is the third most commonly seen drug in schools," said Chula Vista police officer Norene Anderson. Some users in the San Diego area are crossing the border into Mexico to purchase clonazepam for about 25 cents a pill--about one-quarter the cost of the drug in the United States.
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 17, 2002, at 19:18:35
In reply to Klonopin Controversies - Anyone Have Followup?, posted by Rick on January 17, 2002, at 18:47:06
I used to live in San Diego. Chula Vista is an ugly, crime-ridden, gang-infested border city on the U.S. side of the border. San Diego is up to its ears in drugs, both illegal & legal brought over from Tijuana. In order to allow old people to buy cheap prescription drugs, any U.S. citizen 21 or older, is allowed to bring up to 50 pills each of any prescription drug(s) across, without a valid US prescription, if they declare them at the border. You can even bring across schedule II controlled substances, for example: 50 Ritalin & 50 Morphine Sulfate pills, but once the person enters the state (California, Arizona, New Mexico, or Texas) it is illegal to possess the drug without a prescription. I have found that sometimes the drugs in Mexico are made by a name brand but that they are inferior to the U.S. example. For example I bought Ritalin made by Novartis is Mexico, but at 10 mg it seemed it was not even as strong as 5 mg of U.S. Novartis name brand Ritalin.
I hope that date drug hysteria doesn't move on to strike Klonopin- Klonopin is the only psychiatric drug I have found that is worth even taking. It is already ridiculous on how hard it is to get a prescription for benzodiazepines, the last thing we need is something to make that situation worse. Doctors should go back & take a look at what we had before benzodiazepines- Miltown & barbituatues, & then ask themselves if benzodiazepines are really the devil they make them out to be.
Posted by Rick on January 17, 2002, at 19:47:28
In reply to re: I used to live in San Diego, posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 17, 2002, at 19:18:35
> I hope that date drug hysteria doesn't move on to strike Klonopin- Klonopin is the only psychiatric drug I have found that is worth even taking. It is already ridiculous on how hard it is to get a prescription for benzodiazepines, the last thing we need is something to make that situation worse. Doctors should go back & take a look at what we had before benzodiazepines- Miltown & barbituatues, & then ask themselves if benzodiazepines are really the devil they make them out to be."Amen" on every word in that paragraph! There are so many people using Klonopin, including for non-psychiatric medicinal purposes, that I doubt it would be banned nationally. But it's chilling to think that any municipalities would even consider it. The Medline abstract I pasted below does give one pause, though. Somehow the "Anal" seems appropriate.
P.S. I haven't noticed many benzo debates in my recent visits to P-B, although I don't visit regularly. But if perchance this thread mushrooms into one, I for one have no intention of getting involved in the debate.
Rick
Medline Citation:
J Anal Toxicol 2000 Oct;24(7):614-20 Related Articles, Books
Quantitation of clonazepam and its major metabolite 7-aminoclonazepam in hair.
Negrusz A, Moore CM, Kern JL, Janicak PG, Strong MJ, Levy NA.
Department of Pharmaceutics and Pharmacodynamics, College of Pharmacy, University of Illinois at Chicago, 60612, USA.
Clonazepam (CLO) is an anticonvulsant benzodiazepine approved by the Food and Drug Administration for use in the treatment of seizures. It produces pharmacological effects (depression, amnesia) similar to other compounds from the same therapeutic class, and in combination with alcohol, its CNS-depressant action can be significantly potentiated. As with some other benzodiazepines, CLO is a drug possibly used in "date-rape" situations. A method using solid-phase extraction followed by a highly sensitive negative chemical ionization gas chromatography-mass spectrometry for the simultaneous quantitation of CLO and its major metabolite 7-aminoclonazepam (7-ACLO) in hair was developed and validated. The method has potential application to alleged drug-facilitated rape cases. To determine the feasibility of detecting 7-ACLO and CLO in hair, specimens were collected from 10 psychiatric patients treated with CLO, divided into 2-cm segments, and analyzed. Standard curves for 7-ACLO (1-1000 pg/mg) and CLO (10-400 pg/mg) had correlation coefficients of 0.998. All precision and accuracy values were within acceptable limits. 7-ACLO was present in measurable quantities (1.37-1267 pg/mg) in 9 out of 10 patient samples. CLO concentrations in hair were much lower (10.7-180 pg/mg). In 4 out of 10 cases, CLO was not detected in hair. Two patients who had never been treated with CLO before received a single 2-mg dose of the drug. Approximately three weeks later, hair samples were collected, and measurable quantities of 7-ACLO (4.8 pg/mg) were detected in the first segment (proximal) of one of those samples, and traces of the drug were present in the other sample. We concluded that the 7-ACLO is being deposited in hair in much higher quantities than the parent drug and remains there for extended periods of time. Our study also indicates that it is possible to detect 7-ACLO after a single dose of CLO as in the typical date-rape scenarios.
Posted by TSA West on January 17, 2002, at 20:53:41
In reply to Klonopin Controversies - Anyone Have Followup?, posted by Rick on January 17, 2002, at 18:47:06
From Journal of Clinical Psychopharmacology October 1997:
"These two cases suggest that the two forms of clonazepam currently available may have some subtle differences in bioavailability. In both cases, these patients with panic disorder reported that the generic form of clonazepam seemed to cause greater sedation and possess more anxiolytic properties. It is possible that these cases represent an idiosyncratic response seen in patients sensitive to benzodiazepines, yet physicians and patients should be aware that there may be subtle differences between the two formulations."
--Mark Hyman Rapaport, MD
Posted by Simcha on January 18, 2002, at 8:15:25
In reply to Klonopin Controversies - Anyone Have Followup?, posted by Rick on January 17, 2002, at 18:47:06
Hey, I just found this drug! Don't take it away!
I have stopped grinding my teeth. My rls is gone. I do not have anxiety over nothing anymore. The Celexa helped with the anxiety but not the rls or the bruxism. Klonopin is a gem in my combo. I will not give it up.....
-Simcha....
Call me a druggie now.. Go ahead... I dare ya.. ;-)
> I just ran across the following two tidbits about Klonopin, both from August, 2000. Does anyone have any follow-up info or more background, especially about WHAT the quality control concerns were? Seems strange in light of people worrying that *generic* clonazepam may not be up to snuff.
>
> Rick
>
> --------
> SCRIP World Pharmaceutical News, August 23, 2000 i2568 p15(1)
> FDA warns Roche on Klonopin.
>
> Abstract: The US Food and Drug Administration sent a letter of warning to Roche regarding quality control of Klonopin (clonazepam). Roche has asked for a meeting with FDA officials to discuss their concerns.
>
> --------
>
> Mental Health Weekly, August 14, 2000 v10 i32 p8
> Calif. cities move to ban anxiety drug. (clonazepam aka Klonopin)(Brief Article)
>
> The anti-anxiety drug clonazepam (Klonopin) has become the target of several California cities along the Mexican border because it has become a popular recreational drug among youths, APB News reported last month. Several communities, including Chula Vista, have passed laws making use of the drug illegal without a prescription. Law enforcement officials add that some rapists are using drugs such as clonazepam to subdue their victims.
>
> "Besides your typical marijuana and alcohol, this is the third most commonly seen drug in schools," said Chula Vista police officer Norene Anderson. Some users in the San Diego area are crossing the border into Mexico to purchase clonazepam for about 25 cents a pill--about one-quarter the cost of the drug in the United States.
>
>
Posted by FSU Ralph on January 18, 2002, at 22:54:59
In reply to re: I used to live in San Diego, posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 17, 2002, at 19:18:35
Let's talk reality here. Getting date-raped is horrible, and those who do it should be punished to the FULLEST extent allowed by law. Punishing those who commit this atrocious and dispicable act SEVERELY is the answer - NOT taking away VERY SAFE and EFFECTIVE drugs like benzos. If you do that, these criminals will turn to more dangerous and dirty drugs made in underground laboritories, and the result will be NOT LESS DATE RAPES but MORE DATE RAPE FATALITIES!!!
A similar argument I will make against those who wish to take away our handguns. The criminals will still have the guns, but those of us who rely on them to protect our families will not. And the criminals know that.
I hope you soccer moms are paying attention to this! Sorry if I offend but what I say is true.
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 18, 2002, at 23:10:06
In reply to DATE RAPE - If benzos are gone..., posted by FSU Ralph on January 18, 2002, at 22:54:59
Where on earth did the concept of "date rape" come into this? I don't see it in any of the other posts in this thread.
I lived in EL Paso, TX for seven years - Juarez was just on the other side of the border. Meds traveling over that border, seemed far less destructive than those in a plains town in Colorado where I lived later...
Posted by IsoM on January 19, 2002, at 0:55:46
In reply to Re: DATE RAPE - If benzos are gone... » FSU Ralph, posted by Krazy Kat on January 18, 2002, at 23:10:06
hi Katnip, (affectionate term). In Rick's 1st post from Mental Health Weekly, August 14, 2000 v10 i32 p8
Calif. cities move to ban anxiety drug. (clonazepam aka Klonopin)(Brief Article)
is the comment "Law enforcement officials add that some rapists are using drugs such as clonazepam to subdue their victims." By dropping it in drinks, or whatever, the girl can be doped enough.A very stern warning for all women (& men for that matter) is to only drink from an opened bottle of whatever, pop or beer, that you yourself have opened & if put down briefly, don't drink from it again.
> > "...Where on earth did the concept of "date rape" come into this? I don't see it in any of the other posts in this thread. KK"
Posted by Rick on January 19, 2002, at 2:39:00
In reply to Re: Klonopin Controversies - Anyone Have Followup? » Rick, posted by Simcha on January 18, 2002, at 8:15:25
> I have stopped grinding my teeth. My rls is gone. I do not have anxiety over nothing anymore. The Celexa helped with the anxiety but not the rls or the bruxism. Klonopin is a gem in my combo. I will not give it up.....Interesting. I never established whether this was due to bruxism or not, but a few years ago I had been planning to FINALLY see a TMJ specialist about my unrelenting jaw and facial pains. But about the same time, I started Klonopin for social phobia, and noticed that not only was my anxiety abating, but my jaw pains were GONE! I had no idea Klonopin could have such an effect, but read about it later. So Klonopin can even have very beneficial side effects!
Rick
Posted by Rick on January 19, 2002, at 3:03:19
In reply to DATE RAPE - If benzos are gone..., posted by FSU Ralph on January 18, 2002, at 22:54:59
Regarding the research that talks about Klonopin's potetial as a date rape drug, I don't get it. They talk about amnesic effects, and some people certainly do suffer memory lapses from Klonopin. But unless it's injected I don't see how it could cause complete, "reliable" amnesia. People who use Klonopin as an anticonvulsant often take doses up to 20 times higher than typical anxiety or panic amounts, yet they certainly don't lose all memory function.
Even with alcohol potentiation, it seems as if you'd need a potentially lethal combo to ensure complete amnesia. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems goofy to think that criminals out to commit the heinous crime of date rape could depend on Klonopin instead of GHB. That research from U of Ill, as well as another Klonopin/date rape reference I've seen, just don't make sense to me.Rick
Posted by IsoM on January 19, 2002, at 3:27:16
In reply to Re: DATE RAPE - If benzos are gone..., posted by Rick on January 19, 2002, at 3:03:19
Rick, I'm not sure if complete amnesia is what's being aimed for. Benozs & alcohol both potentiate each other and all that is needed is to make the person much more compliant and/or more difficult to fight back or resist.
Admittedly, some drugs cause a person to blank out but a rapist doesn't need that. Maybe too, it's not just Klonopin & alcohol but with street drugs thrown in too.
> Regarding the research that talks about Klonopin's potetial as a date rape drug, I don't get it. They talk about amnesic effects, and some people certainly do suffer memory lapses from Klonopin. But unless it's injected I don't see how it could cause complete, "reliable" amnesia. People who use Klonopin as an anticonvulsant often take doses up to 20 times higher than typical anxiety or panic amounts, yet they certainly don't lose all memory function.
> Even with alcohol potentiation, it seems as if you'd need a potentially lethal combo to ensure complete amnesia. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems goofy to think that criminals out to commit the heinous crime of date rape could depend on Klonopin instead of GHB. That research from U of Ill, as well as another Klonopin/date rape reference I've seen, just don't make sense to me.
>
> Rick
Posted by FSU Ralph on January 19, 2002, at 12:13:39
In reply to Re: DATE RAPE - If benzos are gone... » FSU Ralph, posted by Krazy Kat on January 18, 2002, at 23:10:06
It was mentioned in the thread, and I wanted to express my concern. The war on drugs is a war against Americans, and many good drugs and supplements are not available because of misinformation and paranoia. My feeling is this: some people use cars when committing crimes, but I don't think taking away cars is the answer.
Quaaludes were effective drugs that were taken away back in the early 80's only because some people abused them. They were very safe and effective when used as directed, and many of us with extreme anxiety and panic disorder might be benefiting from them today if they were still available.
Posted by geno on January 19, 2002, at 21:40:39
In reply to Re: DATE RAPE - If benzos are gone... Krazy Kat, posted by FSU Ralph on January 19, 2002, at 12:13:39
> It was mentioned in the thread, and I wanted to express my concern. The war on drugs is a war against Americans, and many good drugs and supplements are not available because of misinformation and paranoia. My feeling is this: some people use cars when committing crimes, but I don't think taking away cars is the answer.
>
> Quaaludes were effective drugs that were taken away back in the early 80's only because some people abused them. They were very safe and effective when used as directed, and many of us with extreme anxiety and panic disorder might be benefiting from them today if they were still available.
GHB is not a date rape drug. Its just another tool a rapist would use. What im saying is wheather its bezos ghb alcohol, just because of some foolish rapist, you going to ban it. OBUSRED. i guess you should ban all hand guns due to a fact there used in most murders.
genoPeople should read up on ghb before talking about it. I could be a very useful tool in actute depresssion, anxiety and sleep
geno
Posted by Rick on January 20, 2002, at 1:10:27
In reply to Re: DATE RAPE - If benzos are gone... Krazy Kat, posted by FSU Ralph on January 19, 2002, at 12:13:39
>many good drugs and supplements are not available because of misinformation and paranoia.
I wonder if that has anything to do with why extended-release Xanax is unavailable in the U.S.?
Rick
Posted by FSU Ralph on January 20, 2002, at 10:31:10
In reply to Re: DATE RAPE - If benzos are gone... Krazy Kat » FSU Ralph, posted by Rick on January 20, 2002, at 1:10:27
> I wonder if that has anything to do with why extended-release Xanax is unavailable in the U.S.?
>
> RickWow - I didn't even know there was such a thing! That would be extremely helpful for panic sufferers. Xanax has been shown to be slightly more effective than other benzo's in treating panic, and there is some evidence that it does not contribute as much to depression. The only drawback has been that it is very short-acting and consequently more addictive in some ways.
I'll bet you are right though - I could think of no other reason why it would not be available here.
Posted by spike4848 on January 20, 2002, at 20:21:26
In reply to Klonopin Controversies - Anyone Have Followup?, posted by Rick on January 17, 2002, at 18:47:06
> Mental Health Weekly, August 14, 2000 v10 i32 p8
> The anti-anxiety drug clonazepam (Klonopin) has become the target of several California cities along the Mexican border because it has become a popular recreational drug among youths, APB News reported last month. Several communities, including Chula Vista, have passed laws making use of the drug illegal without a prescription. Law enforcement officials add that some rapists are using drugs such as clonazepam to subdue their victims.Hey Guys,
This qualifies for the most ridiculous news story of the year award! Sensationalism! What a way to make a buck!
Spike
Posted by Cecilia on January 21, 2002, at 1:02:42
In reply to Re: Klonopin Controversies - Anyone Have Followup? » Rick, posted by spike4848 on January 20, 2002, at 20:21:26
>
> > Mental Health Weekly, August 14, 2000 v10 i32 p8
> > The anti-anxiety drug clonazepam (Klonopin) has become the target of several California cities along the Mexican border because it has become a popular recreational drug among youths, APB News reported last month. Several communities, including Chula Vista, have passed laws making use of the drug illegal without a prescription. Law enforcement officials add that some rapists are using drugs such as clonazepam to subdue their victims.
>
> Hey Guys,
>
> This qualifies for the most ridiculous news story of the year award! Sensationalism! What a way to make a buck!
>
> SpikeIt`s ALREADY illegal to use clonazepam without a prescription-it`s a prescription only drug and a controlled substance to boot.
Posted by Rick on January 21, 2002, at 4:21:01
In reply to Re: Klonopin Controversies - Anyone Have Followup?, posted by Cecilia on January 21, 2002, at 1:02:42
> > >Several communities, including Chula Vista, have passed laws making use of the drug illegal without a prescription. Law enforcement officials add that some rapists are using drugs such as clonazepam to subdue their victims.
> > This qualifies for the most ridiculous news story of the year award! Sensationalism! What a way to make a buck!> > Spike
>It`s ALREADY illegal to use clonazepam without a prescription-it`s a prescription only drug and a controlled substance to boot.
That was my thought too. Then I tried to make sense of it for awhile, and maybe what the article is *trying* to say is that if you're seen with Klonopin in those towns, you have to have proof of prescription WITH you, e.g., your pharmacy bottle with the prescription info on the label. Normally, as you know, if a law enforcement officer anywhere else sees you taking your afternoon dose of Klonopin, they're not going to come up and ask to see proof of prescription just because it's a controlled substance. Although... a woman I know was stopped in Indiana on a traffic violation and the cop demanded to see the prescription for the WELLBUTRIN she had in a pillcase!! (It's taking a lot of restraint for me to keep from adding a few pointed adjectives to that last sentence!)
I dunno, still sounds goofy to me!
Posted by mr.scott on January 21, 2002, at 17:00:17
In reply to Re: Klonopin Controversies - Anyone Have Followup?, posted by Cecilia on January 21, 2002, at 1:02:42
Alcohol is frequently sited asan important factor leading to Date-Rape, I don't see anyone trying to make it illegal.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2002, at 17:59:55
In reply to DATE RAPE - If benzos are gone..., posted by FSU Ralph on January 18, 2002, at 22:54:59
> Let's talk reality here. Getting date-raped is horrible, and those who do it should be punished to the FULLEST extent allowed by law...
Discussion about how to punish people, and whether drugs should be banned, should take place at Psycho-Social-Babble, thanks.
Bob
PS: And discussion about posting policies should take place at Psycho-Babble Administration...
This is the end of the thread.
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