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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 6, 2002, at 13:08:21
In reply to Re: Effexor Help?, posted by MaKi on January 6, 2002, at 9:46:46
Good luck to you Maki! Tomorrow the sun will rise, and who knows what the tide may bring (the movie Castaway). Perhaps success with Effexor...Keep us posted as we all learn from eachother.
Scott
Posted by sid on January 6, 2002, at 15:37:39
In reply to Re: Effexor Help? » MaKi, posted by Mr. Scott on January 6, 2002, at 13:08:21
I've been on Effexor XR for dysthymia for about 40 days, at 37.5mg still. It helped a lot at first but now I am sleeping too much. I don't feel depressed, my modd is fine, I just sleep way too much! I can't get up at a reasonable hour in the morning, I need to nap in the afternoon, and I go to bed at a reasonable hour. It used to keep me up at night but put me to sleep during the day, now I could sleep all the time. It worreis me because my depression makes me sleep too much and eat too much. I eat normally though these days, even not much some days since Effexor XR made me lose my appetite. There are many things I lost a taste for; these days I eat oranges, oranges, oranges. The vitamin C should wake me up !
Anybody else experiencing this?
I suspect my doc will want me to increase the dosage in a couple of weeks, but frankly, I still have side effects and I am starting to think that perhaps I should try something else - but what then? I have anxiety and dysthymia. Had major depression before which I got rid of with CBT and acupuncture only. Went to the doc for dysthymia, but she diagnosed anxiety as well. We all have it in my family, so I guess to me it was normal. Apparently not. Any input appreciated...
Posted by jimmygold70 on January 6, 2002, at 16:24:48
In reply to Effexor Help?, posted by Mr. Scott on January 5, 2002, at 14:07:39
Kind of. In doses of 300mg and above it is said to be very activating.
Posted by jimmygold70 on January 6, 2002, at 16:28:01
In reply to Dysthymia, Effexor XR, sleep problem, alternatives, posted by sid on January 6, 2002, at 15:37:39
Get the dose up and up and up. It has completely different side effects on 225mg (my experience) and 300-375mg (other accounts)
Jimmy
Posted by MaKi on January 6, 2002, at 16:34:13
In reply to Dysthymia, Effexor XR, sleep problem, alternatives, posted by sid on January 6, 2002, at 15:37:39
Sid,
I've been taking Effexor XR, at 37.5mg daily for
a full 4 weeks now. As far as being sleepy all
the time, I can't say that I've been experiencing
the same thing. The only problem I seem to have is
waking up often during the night but other than that,
I don't have any problems staying awake. You said
you've been taking the medication now for 40 days and
you're thinking of switching? In my opinion, I think
you should probably tough it out a while longer, and
once you increase your dosage, maybe things will change
for the better. I think that most of us are very
impatient and expect the drug to take effect as soon as
administered but that's not really the case, it doesn't
start working overnight. I tried Paxil and then Zoloft
right before trying Effexor XR and let me tell you, I
experienced such bad side effects, mostly during the
night that I don't ever want to experience them again.
I'm pretty happy with Effexor but I will eventually
have to increase my dosage, and that's what I'm afraid of.
I'm sure you will make the right decision, only you know
your body and what you're comfortable with. If it means
anything, good luck and keep me posted.MaKi
Posted by sid on January 6, 2002, at 20:53:13
In reply to Re: Dysthymia, Effexor XR, sleep problem, alternatives, posted by MaKi on January 6, 2002, at 16:34:13
Thanks, yes I think too that it's time to increase my dosage. Don't know why my doc is keeping me at such a low dosage for so long. I'm seeing her in 2 weeks.
I had major insomnia for the first 2-3 weeks - I slept an average of 3 to 4 hours per night and not at all during the day. Then I had minor insomnis; i.e., as you describe: waking up several times per night, but then I could go back to sleep at least. The past week has been: sleep sleep sleep. I had given up caffeinated coffee but I bought some for tomorrow morning: back to work! Need to be very awake.
I am fairly patient in this process - it took me years to get out of major depression, so I know it takes time for it all to work. It's just that now I only have dysthymia (+ anxiety), and frankly, right now I almost prefer the disease to being sooo sleepy all the time. Anyway, I'll keep you posted and undoubtedly ask more questions!
> Sid,
>
> I've been taking Effexor XR, at 37.5mg daily for
> a full 4 weeks now. As far as being sleepy all
> the time, I can't say that I've been experiencing
> the same thing. The only problem I seem to have is
> waking up often during the night but other than that,
> I don't have any problems staying awake. You said
> you've been taking the medication now for 40 days and
> you're thinking of switching? In my opinion, I think
> you should probably tough it out a while longer, and
> once you increase your dosage, maybe things will change
> for the better. I think that most of us are very
> impatient and expect the drug to take effect as soon as
> administered but that's not really the case, it doesn't
> start working overnight. I tried Paxil and then Zoloft
> right before trying Effexor XR and let me tell you, I
> experienced such bad side effects, mostly during the
> night that I don't ever want to experience them again.
> I'm pretty happy with Effexor but I will eventually
> have to increase my dosage, and that's what I'm afraid of.
>
> I'm sure you will make the right decision, only you know
> your body and what you're comfortable with. If it means
> anything, good luck and keep me posted.
>
> MaKi
Posted by Anna Laura on January 7, 2002, at 1:32:03
In reply to Re: Effexor Help? » Anna Laura, posted by Mr. Scott on January 6, 2002, at 12:51:00
> Thanks for your reply Anna Laura,
> Are you still taking it with some success?
>
> ScottScott,
I noticed that Effexor worked better as time went by, but as i wanted to target my main symptom which is anhedonia, i've been considering to give MAOI a try.
I tried to switch to tranylcipromine (brand name Parnate in the U.S.) so i had to taper off my Effexor dose: the withdrawal wasn't so bad as i expected, but as i lowered the dose to 75 mg. depression showed up. Besides that i found out that the Parnate version in my country (Italy) is a mixed compound (tranycilpromine+antypsicotic), so i came back to effexor since antypsicotics make my depression worse (i think it's related to dopamine since antypsicotics seem to block the dopamine receptors thus lowering dopamine in the brain). I raised my effexor dose hoping it would kick in again. I spent my Christmas holidays feeling like shit. I started feeling better a few days ago: i guess noradrenalin/serotonin mechanism is involved; i'm still waiting for the dopamine to kick in : it usually takes few more weeks.
I've been thinking about augmenting effexor with mirapex (a dopamine agonist) still looking for a pdoc who's willing to prescribe it.
The more research i make on depression, the more i get persuaded that my type of depression is somehow linked to dopamine deficiency; pdoc are quite reluctant about prescribing dopaminergic drugs though. They 're always pushing you to take SSRI, considering them as they were the miracle drug. I was an achiever type of person before depression, i was flamboyant and very vital, always on the go (dopamine predominance type of character ?). The serotonin predominance temperament on the other hand is more about being mellow and calm (is that the reason why SSRI didn't work so well for me? ). Anyway, i'll try to get in touch with the university clinic and see if they are going to put me under a mirapex trial.
i think i need some hormones augmentation also, especially androgens. I know it sounds funny since i'm a woman but i have all the symptoms of androgen deficiency
as loss of muscle tone and low libido."The symptoms of androgen deficiency have been suggested to include the following: global loss of sexual desire, decreased sensitivity to sexual stimulation in the nipples and in the clitoris, decreased arousability and capacity for orgasm, loss of muscle tone, diminished vital energy, thinning and loss of pubic hair, and dry skin.[12] A major advocate of the notion that there is an identifiable syndrome of androgen deficiency in women is Dr. Susan Davis, Research Director of the Jean Hailes Foundation Research Unit at Monash University, Melbourne, Australia. Dr. Davis lists the following features of women likely to respond to androgen therapy: low libido, blunted motivation, fatigue, and lack of well-being in the presence of normal plasma estrogen levels but low levels of bioavailable testosterone."
Posted by jimmygold70 on January 7, 2002, at 3:01:49
In reply to Re: Effexor Help?, posted by Anna Laura on January 7, 2002, at 1:32:03
Well, I wouldn't take Testosterone at first. First try DHEA. It's a supplement you can order over the internet. If it doesn't help, Testosterone is available at pills, injections and a gel.
ANYWAY it is very easy to check if you have androgen deficiency. Do a blood test, not only for Testosterone but also Free (Bioavailable) Testosterone, I would also look for E2, LH, Progesterone, HCG (quantitative) and the relationship between. ANYWAY DO NOT TAKE ANDROGENS FROM ANY PHYSICIAN OTHER THAN A QUALIFIED ENDOCRINOLOGIST !!!
Jimmy
Posted by sid on January 7, 2002, at 10:29:51
In reply to Re: Dysthymia, Effexor XR, sleep problem, alternatives, posted by MaKi on January 6, 2002, at 16:34:13
Well, I realize that yesterday's message was prompted by PMS. Even on Effexor AND the pill, I still have PMS. Wonderful to be a woman. Placebo week is here and I become impatient, sleep too much, am very slow at anything. I should take the new pill without placebo, huh? Seeing my doc in 2 weeks, will have a talk about it, although I don't think it's been approved here yet.
Someone wrote that low dose of SSRI works against OCD and that low dose Effexor works as an SSRI. I'll bet that's why mu doc keeps me at a low dose for so long. I have anxiety, and I think, obsessive thinking (at least I used to), although I don't have compulsive behavior. Will talk to her some more.
Well... back to work.
Posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 13:44:34
In reply to Re: Dysthymia, Effexor XR, sleep problem, alternatives, posted by sid on January 7, 2002, at 10:29:51
For what it's worth, I've had PMS exactly twice in my life & now that I'm entering menopause, no problems with that - no hot flushes or anything.
As for genetics, I'm not sure. I have no sisters but my Mom suffered horribly.This is just my theory so if you don't agree, please don't jump on me with hob-nailed boots. I've eaten soy flour in my baking & breads plus soy beans & tofu for over thirty years now. Because of the interest lately in soy phytoestrogens, I'm thinking that my regular soy intake has had this beneficial effect on my cycles. After all, while menopause is diefinitely known in Japan, Japanese women don't have problems with hot flushes - in fact, there's no Japanese word for that in their language. (I can confirm that too as my son speaks Japanese & he checked in his dictionaries for me.)
But I don't think that isolated soy isoflavones as sold in supplement form is necessarily the best way to get the benefits. Not just the highly publicised phytoestrogens are found in soy, but also phytoandrogens & other phytochemicals still be discovered. That's why I think the whole soy is what really works, not just trying to extract certain compounds from the bean.
Anyway, my 2¢ worth.
***************************************************************************************************
> Well, I realize that yesterday's message was prompted by PMS. Even on Effexor AND the pill, I still have PMS. Wonderful to be a woman. Placebo week is here and I become impatient, sleep too much, am very slow at anything. I should take the new pill without placebo, huh? Seeing my doc in 2 weeks, will have a talk about it, although I don't think it's been approved here yet.
>
> Someone wrote that low dose of SSRI works against OCD and that low dose Effexor works as an SSRI. I'll bet that's why mu doc keeps me at a low dose for so long. I have anxiety, and I think, obsessive thinking (at least I used to), although I don't have compulsive behavior. Will talk to her some more.
>
> Well... back to work.
Posted by sid on January 7, 2002, at 14:32:30
In reply to Re: PMS Problems, posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 13:44:34
I knew soy affected us hormonally, I just was not sure how. For example, I recall reading that it can increase the probability of breast cancer. Also, I read that soy milk given to male babies can lead to complications at puberty with sexual identity (perhaps with sexual orientation too, although I don't see that as a problem necessarily, unless we can show for sure that it can be caused by soy milk).
Anyway, because of all that, I tend to stay away from soy, even though I love it, especially boiled soy beans, which I tend to eat like a snack. I also eat tofu fromtime to time. I'll think about it and perhaps make a few tests... PMS has been worse in the past few years, and every woman who experienced it around me told me that it is worse in your 30's... I'm 34.
Thanks for the input, I'll think about it.
> For what it's worth, I've had PMS exactly twice in my life & now that I'm entering menopause, no problems with that - no hot flushes or anything.
> As for genetics, I'm not sure. I have no sisters but my Mom suffered horribly.
>
> This is just my theory so if you don't agree, please don't jump on me with hob-nailed boots. I've eaten soy flour in my baking & breads plus soy beans & tofu for over thirty years now. Because of the interest lately in soy phytoestrogens, I'm thinking that my regular soy intake has had this beneficial effect on my cycles. After all, while menopause is diefinitely known in Japan, Japanese women don't have problems with hot flushes - in fact, there's no Japanese word for that in their language. (I can confirm that too as my son speaks Japanese & he checked in his dictionaries for me.)
>
> But I don't think that isolated soy isoflavones as sold in supplement form is necessarily the best way to get the benefits. Not just the highly publicised phytoestrogens are found in soy, but also phytoandrogens & other phytochemicals still be discovered. That's why I think the whole soy is what really works, not just trying to extract certain compounds from the bean.
>
> Anyway, my 2¢ worth.
>
> ***************************************************************************************************
>
> > Well, I realize that yesterday's message was prompted by PMS. Even on Effexor AND the pill, I still have PMS. Wonderful to be a woman. Placebo week is here and I become impatient, sleep too much, am very slow at anything. I should take the new pill without placebo, huh? Seeing my doc in 2 weeks, will have a talk about it, although I don't think it's been approved here yet.
> >
> > Someone wrote that low dose of SSRI works against OCD and that low dose Effexor works as an SSRI. I'll bet that's why mu doc keeps me at a low dose for so long. I have anxiety, and I think, obsessive thinking (at least I used to), although I don't have compulsive behavior. Will talk to her some more.
> >
> > Well... back to work.
Posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 14:55:41
In reply to Re: PMS Problems » IsoM, posted by sid on January 7, 2002, at 14:32:30
From all that I've read, if a person has a hormonally affected cancer then it's a good idea to avoid soy as not enough information is around to see what the long-term effects on the cancer is. But in healthy individuals, soy definitely has cancer-protecting properties. It has to do with the half-life of various xeno-estrogens (man-made mimickers like DDT, dioxin, & PCBs have extremely LONG half-lives [very bad!], plant estrogens have very short half-lives [which is why it needs to be a regular part of the diet, not just occasional]) vs the half-life of natural produced estrogens. The explanation can get complicated.
I thoroughly agree about giving soy milk to babies. That's why breast milk is best. I really don't think the mother's intake of soy affects her milk enough. I ate lots of soy while I was nursing my children (3 boys) & they're all adults now, healthy, no known disorders other than good ol' depression (runs in the family).
****************************************************************************************************
> I knew soy affected us hormonally, I just was not sure how. For example, I recall reading that it can increase the probability of breast cancer. Also, I read that soy milk given to male babies can lead to complications at puberty with sexual identity (perhaps with sexual orientation too, although I don't see that as a problem necessarily, unless we can show for sure that it can be caused by soy milk).
>
> Anyway, because of all that, I tend to stay away from soy, even though I love it, especially boiled soy beans, which I tend to eat like a snack. I also eat tofu fromtime to time. I'll think about it and perhaps make a few tests... PMS has been worse in the past few years, and every woman who experienced it around me told me that it is worse in your 30's... I'm 34.
>
> Thanks for the input, I'll think about it.
Posted by mr.scott on January 7, 2002, at 15:27:26
In reply to Re: Effexor Help?, posted by Anna Laura on January 7, 2002, at 1:32:03
Here in the US we have a pill named Estratest for female hormone replacement therapy. it has tiny doses of Testosterone in it. I don't know if it's available in Italy, but I'd be careful and want to know if your test level is actually low first. We all saw what happened to Michael Jackson from messing around with hormones!!
I agree about the dopamine issue being central to dysthymia, anhedonia, and depression. I just haven't seen or used a Dopamine drug that actually helped consistently.
Scott
Posted by dee on January 7, 2002, at 16:17:45
In reply to Effexor Help?, posted by Mr. Scott on January 5, 2002, at 14:07:39
>
Hi Scott,
Tomorrow I am visiting my doctor to up my dose from 75 mg to higher. I feel the same way lazy, depressed and I have heard higher my be a little better. So Iam giving it a try, what can it hurt but maybe make me feel better.
Dee
Posted by MaKi on January 7, 2002, at 16:45:56
In reply to Re: Effexor Help?, posted by dee on January 7, 2002, at 16:17:45
Hi Dee, I wish I had the same courage as you do.
I was supposed to up my dosage from 37.5 to 75mg
today but I couldn't do it. I've been hearing
negative things from different people who say they've
experienced side effects once they increased their
dosage and I just couldn't push myself to do it.
Do you have any suggestions or maybe you can tell
me how things were for you once you increased from
37.5 to 75mg? I would really appreciate your advice.Thanks, and hope it all works out for you tomorrow
once you see the Dr.MaKi (Joanne)
Posted by christophrejmc on January 7, 2002, at 16:58:43
In reply to about soy and breast cancer » sid, posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 14:55:41
What about the breast cancer risk with cow milk (because of the hormones they give the cows)?
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 7, 2002, at 20:42:59
In reply to Re: Effexor Help? Dee, posted by MaKi on January 7, 2002, at 16:45:56
Hello Maki,
Just as an FYI... Effexor half a very short half life..If you do experience side effects by trying to go up to 75mg (I can guarantee they won't be severe...uncomfortable at best) they will be gone by the next day. It's not like Prozac where the side effects could last several days until the drug washed out a bit. You'll be okay..
Scott
Posted by sid on January 7, 2002, at 20:45:21
In reply to about soy and breast cancer » sid, posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 14:55:41
Thanks, you're knowledgeable! I read these things in magazines and then forget about them. I do research in a very dofferent field so I guess I have to choose what to concentrate on, plus, my memory is very bad. Well, I'll eat more soy I guess, especially since I love it!
> From all that I've read, if a person has a hormonally affected cancer then it's a good idea to avoid soy as not enough information is around to see what the long-term effects on the cancer is. But in healthy individuals, soy definitely has cancer-protecting properties. It has to do with the half-life of various xeno-estrogens (man-made mimickers like DDT, dioxin, & PCBs have extremely LONG half-lives [very bad!], plant estrogens have very short half-lives [which is why it needs to be a regular part of the diet, not just occasional]) vs the half-life of natural produced estrogens. The explanation can get complicated.
>
> I thoroughly agree about giving soy milk to babies. That's why breast milk is best. I really don't think the mother's intake of soy affects her milk enough. I ate lots of soy while I was nursing my children (3 boys) & they're all adults now, healthy, no known disorders other than good ol' depression (runs in the family).
>
> ****************************************************************************************************
>
> > I knew soy affected us hormonally, I just was not sure how. For example, I recall reading that it can increase the probability of breast cancer. Also, I read that soy milk given to male babies can lead to complications at puberty with sexual identity (perhaps with sexual orientation too, although I don't see that as a problem necessarily, unless we can show for sure that it can be caused by soy milk).
> >
> > Anyway, because of all that, I tend to stay away from soy, even though I love it, especially boiled soy beans, which I tend to eat like a snack. I also eat tofu fromtime to time. I'll think about it and perhaps make a few tests... PMS has been worse in the past few years, and every woman who experienced it around me told me that it is worse in your 30's... I'm 34.
> >
> > Thanks for the input, I'll think about it.
Posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 21:11:48
In reply to Re: about soy and breast cancer » IsoM, posted by sid on January 7, 2002, at 20:45:21
Posted by sid on January 7, 2002, at 21:17:37
In reply to Soy Supposed to Help Memory Too - Really! (nm) » sid, posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 21:11:48
Posted by MaKi on January 8, 2002, at 8:01:41
In reply to Re: Effexor Help? Dee » MaKi, posted by Mr. Scott on January 7, 2002, at 20:42:59
Scott, thanks for reassuring me a little, I do feel
better when I hear something positive. Yesterday I
was supposed to increase my dosage but I couldn't
get myself to do it. Today is another day, we'll see
what happens later.Thanks again,
MaKi
Posted by zekingprawn on January 8, 2002, at 11:33:28
In reply to Re: Effexor Help? Scott, posted by MaKi on January 8, 2002, at 8:01:41
read my 'effexor succes story' for more 1st hand exp. about the drug. Because it has such a short halp life, larger doses work better, i've been told...
> Scott, thanks for reassuring me a little, I do feel
> better when I hear something positive. Yesterday I
> was supposed to increase my dosage but I couldn't
> get myself to do it. Today is another day, we'll see
> what happens later.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> MaKi
Posted by Anna Laura on January 9, 2002, at 1:35:42
In reply to Re: Effexor Help? » Anna Laura, posted by mr.scott on January 7, 2002, at 15:27:26
> Here in the US we have a pill named Estratest for female hormone replacement therapy. it has tiny doses of Testosterone in it. I don't know if it's available in Italy, but I'd be careful and want to know if your test level is actually low first. We all saw what happened to Michael Jackson from messing around with hormones!!
>
> I agree about the dopamine issue being central to dysthymia, anhedonia, and depression. I just haven't seen or used a Dopamine drug that actually helped consistently.
>
> ScottHi Scott
Don't worry about me messing up with hormones: i was going to have my levels checked before taking them. I'm not so reckless and irresponsible; i've had troubles with the pill (it worsened my depression) and i'm not going to repeat that awful experience again!
Besides that, i don't want to look like Michael Jackson for sure: i prefer Ewan Mc Gregor in Moulin Rouge. (Just kidding!!!).
Why did you say dopaminergic drugs aren't helping much? Did you try them?
I've seen that some people on this board improved their anhedonia with dopaminergic augmentation (Andrew B., John L, Chris K.).
Research showed Mirapex, Selegiline and other drugs with dopaminergic properties improved depression and anhedonia.This article is about Selegiline (a MAO B inhibitor which enhances dopamine production):
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998/12.10/depression.html
Posted by Anna Laura on January 9, 2002, at 1:40:01
In reply to Re: Effexor Help? » Anna Laura, posted by jimmygold70 on January 7, 2002, at 3:01:49
> Well, I wouldn't take Testosterone at first. First try DHEA. It's a supplement you can order over the internet. If it doesn't help, Testosterone is available at pills, injections and a gel.
>
> ANYWAY it is very easy to check if you have androgen deficiency. Do a blood test, not only for Testosterone but also Free (Bioavailable) Testosterone, I would also look for E2, LH, Progesterone, HCG (quantitative) and the relationship between. ANYWAY DO NOT TAKE ANDROGENS FROM ANY PHYSICIAN OTHER THAN A QUALIFIED ENDOCRINOLOGIST !!!
>
> Jimmy
Hi Jimmy
Thank you for your tips. Don't you worry: I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE HORMONES BEFORE GETTING MY LEVELS CHECKED!
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 9, 2002, at 20:02:16
In reply to Re: Effexor Help? Mr. Scott, posted by Anna Laura on January 9, 2002, at 1:35:42
Hello Anna Laura,
Well my guess is that only one of the many dopamine receptors is the right one. I've only tried tried Dexedrine, Ritalin, cocaine, and wellbutrin that specifically target Dopamine. And my experience has been that after an initial improvement that is close to a cure, I become anxious, agitated, restless, and eventually worse after only a few days of usage. That is why I have steared away from these drugs. Even Adrafinil and Provigil make me feel terrible. I have a great deal of anxiety though so maybe that is why I feel that way. I would like to try Amisulpride and Mirapex. I won't go near Zyprexa however even though JohnL has heralded it as a miracle drug.
Scott
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