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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by bob on January 4, 2002, at 23:59:46
I just saw the movie "A Beautiful Mind", and in it, there is a scene where it appears as if they are inducing convulsions in Nash with insulin injections. Is that an outdated treatment similar to ECT, or is it something else entirely that is still used today for Schizophrenia? My impression was that chemically induced convulsions when out with the advent of electrically induced ones.
Posted by shellir on January 5, 2002, at 12:02:44
In reply to A Beautiful Mind, posted by bob on January 4, 2002, at 23:59:46
> I just saw the movie "A Beautiful Mind", and in it, there is a scene where it appears as if they are inducing convulsions in Nash with insulin injections. Is that an outdated treatment similar to ECT, or is it something else entirely that is still used today for Schizophrenia? My impression was that chemically induced convulsions when out with the advent of electrically induced ones.
Bob, these are posts about A Beautiful Mind on Social Psycho-Babble; you might want to repost this over there.Shelli
Posted by IsoM on January 5, 2002, at 12:57:54
In reply to A Beautiful Mind, posted by bob on January 4, 2002, at 23:59:46
Posted by sid on January 5, 2002, at 15:26:36
In reply to A Beautiful Mind, posted by bob on January 4, 2002, at 23:59:46
I thought it was ECT he was getting in the movie.
> I just saw the movie "A Beautiful Mind", and in it, there is a scene where it appears as if they are inducing convulsions in Nash with insulin injections. Is that an outdated treatment similar to ECT, or is it something else entirely that is still used today for Schizophrenia? My impression was that chemically induced convulsions when out with the advent of electrically induced ones.
Posted by OldSchool on January 5, 2002, at 20:59:13
In reply to A Beautiful Mind, posted by bob on January 4, 2002, at 23:59:46
> I just saw the movie "A Beautiful Mind", and in it, there is a scene where it appears as if they are inducing convulsions in Nash with insulin injections. Is that an outdated treatment similar to ECT, or is it something else entirely that is still used today for Schizophrenia? My impression was that chemically induced convulsions when out with the advent of electrically induced ones.
Chemically induced convulsions called "insulin shock treatment" has been outlawed since at least the sixties. It was a barbaric psychiatric procedure that killed many patients. Any psychiatrist who tried to do it to a patient today would be put in prison and lose their medical license.
Electically induced convulsions (ECT) on the other hand has not gone out of style and has even made somewhat of a comeback in recent years. Its been refined a great deal and its among the most effective treatments for severe depression. ECT is sometimes used to treat refractory schizophrenia as well. Modern ECT is very safe and effective.
I must say that reality for paranoid schizophrenics is not always as great as is portrayed in this movie. Schizophrenics oftentimes do not end up well and its hard to treat. Many end up homeless, jobless and disabled due to their illness. More biologically based schizophrenia research is sorely needed.
Schizophrenia is the worst disease known to afflict mankind.
Old School
Posted by Guinnee Pig on January 8, 2002, at 14:33:08
In reply to A Beautiful Mind, posted by bob on January 4, 2002, at 23:59:46
I didn't see the movie, don't know about the injection, but I do have a short comment on the "outdated" use of ect. Maybe I misunderstood you, but it seems you are not aware that ECT is used today everyday still...University of Chicago
Hospital is one place I know it is still being used. Just a little info. I am not a supporter of the use of ECT...if you were wondering.
Posted by bob on January 8, 2002, at 15:38:01
In reply to Re: A Beautiful Mind, posted by Guinnee Pig on January 8, 2002, at 14:33:08
I guess I should have worded my message differently. Instead of saying, "...is that an outdated method of treatment similar to ECT...", I probably should have said, "...is that an outdated method of treatment, meant to ellicit seizures and/or convulsions similar to today's ECT treatments?" I have done much reading on ECT and am well aware of its practice in today's psychiatry. Sorry for the confusion.
A question for you: Why are you not a supporter of it?
Posted by sid on January 8, 2002, at 16:53:29
In reply to Re: A Beautiful Mind, posted by Guinnee Pig on January 8, 2002, at 14:33:08
Saw a piece on TV the other night whre a psychiatrist was saying that ECT gave the best result against Major depression and, according to him, it should be used first, before messing around with meds. He tells his students that if he ever has major depression, that's what he wants. It may be true, but there is an abuse stigma on ECT that people nowadays still have trouble with.
> I didn't see the movie, don't know about the injection, but I do have a short comment on the "outdated" use of ect. Maybe I misunderstood you, but it seems you are not aware that ECT is used today everyday still...University of Chicago
> Hospital is one place I know it is still being used. Just a little info. I am not a supporter of the use of ECT...if you were wondering.
Posted by bob on January 9, 2002, at 0:00:35
In reply to ECT » Guinnee Pig, posted by sid on January 8, 2002, at 16:53:29
Sid:
I have done a significant bit of reading on ECT, and have gathered that it seems to be extremely effective, across a broad range of conditions. I would have wanted to ask that doctor two questions however:
1 -- Wouldn't he have been the least bit worried about the memory problems? From everything I've read, they haven't eliminated that, and for some it is worse than others. It would seem to me that it would get rather difficult to perform as a doctor with memory lapses.
2 -- Would he be willing to face a life of maintenance treatments, since it is basically an accepted fact that remission gained from ECT treatment doesn't last?
3 -- Is he recommending ECT with no med maintenance afterward? I'm not even sure anybody proposes this currently. I think it would be difficult to find a doctor that would do this. Also, many doctors like to do ECT as an inpatient treatment.
I *hate* to suggest this, but there may be politics and money involved also. If people were able to sustain mental health with maintenance ECT, the drug market could be dented, and you would definitely have less reason to see your psychiatrist as often. I hope none of that is going on, but you never know.
One question for you: Do you know where this doctor was from, and what hospital/health system he was associated with? What tv show did you see it on?
Posted by IsoM on January 9, 2002, at 0:38:58
In reply to Re: ECT » sid, posted by bob on January 9, 2002, at 0:00:35
Dr. Harris (can't remember his first name, sorry) associated with the UBC hospital psychiatric ward, Vancouver, BC told me of a patient that came in once of month for ECT. He didn't elaborate except to say the man didn't respond to any medication & this was the only way to keep him functional. Apparently, he lived an otherwise normal life.
This was at least 5 years ago & I don't know what has happened since.
> Sid:
>
> I have done a significant bit of reading on ECT, and have gathered that it seems to be extremely effective, across a broad range of conditions. I would have wanted to ask that doctor two questions however:
>
> > 2 -- Would he be willing to face a life of maintenance treatments, since it is basically an accepted fact that remission gained from ECT treatment doesn't last?
>
> >3 -- Is he recommending ECT with no med maintenance afterward? I'm not even sure anybody proposes this currently. I think it would be difficult to find a doctor that would do this. Also, many doctors like to do ECT as an inpatient treatment.
>
> I *hate* to suggest this, but there may be politics and money involved also. If people were able to sustain mental health with maintenance ECT, the drug market could be dented, and you would definitely have less reason to see your psychiatrist as often. I hope none of that is going on, but you never know.
Posted by OldSchool on January 9, 2002, at 9:24:46
In reply to Re: maintenance with ECT » bob, posted by IsoM on January 9, 2002, at 0:38:58
> Dr. Harris (can't remember his first name, sorry) associated with the UBC hospital psychiatric ward, Vancouver, BC told me of a patient that came in once of month for ECT. He didn't elaborate except to say the man didn't respond to any medication & this was the only way to keep him functional. Apparently, he lived an otherwise normal life.
>
>
This is more common than youd think actually. When I used the services of Duke psychiatry, I was told that the Duke ECT unit has quite a few patients who came into Duke once a month to get shocked to keep them in remission. I was told at Duke that ECT produces the most dramatic results of any treatment available and that there was a small subgroup of patients who used this once a month shock treatment and were VERY enthusiastic about it.
Old School
Posted by sid on January 9, 2002, at 16:46:05
In reply to Re: ECT » sid, posted by bob on January 9, 2002, at 0:00:35
I believe it was on Radio Canada (French speaking channel) and he is based in Montreal. I don't remember his name however, but I think he was high-ranked (president or vice-president) in the Canadian or Quebec Association of Psychiatry. Sorry, I didn't take notes.
It was actually a panel where a number of people were against ECT. The memory problem came up a lot. I'll try to do a search on the web site of Radio Canada, and if I find something more I'll let you know.> Sid:
>
> I have done a significant bit of reading on ECT, and have gathered that it seems to be extremely effective, across a broad range of conditions. I would have wanted to ask that doctor two questions however:
>
> 1 -- Wouldn't he have been the least bit worried about the memory problems? From everything I've read, they haven't eliminated that, and for some it is worse than others. It would seem to me that it would get rather difficult to perform as a doctor with memory lapses.
>
> 2 -- Would he be willing to face a life of maintenance treatments, since it is basically an accepted fact that remission gained from ECT treatment doesn't last?
>
> 3 -- Is he recommending ECT with no med maintenance afterward? I'm not even sure anybody proposes this currently. I think it would be difficult to find a doctor that would do this. Also, many doctors like to do ECT as an inpatient treatment.
>
> I *hate* to suggest this, but there may be politics and money involved also. If people were able to sustain mental health with maintenance ECT, the drug market could be dented, and you would definitely have less reason to see your psychiatrist as often. I hope none of that is going on, but you never know.
>
> One question for you: Do you know where this doctor was from, and what hospital/health system he was associated with? What tv show did you see it on?
Posted by sid on January 9, 2002, at 18:13:12
In reply to Re: ECT » sid, posted by bob on January 9, 2002, at 0:00:35
Posted by bob on January 9, 2002, at 23:38:00
In reply to Re: ECT » bob, posted by sid on January 9, 2002, at 16:46:05
Was the panel all doctors? I haven't heard of too many doctors against ECT. It is accepted as a necessary treatment in some cases.
Posted by sid on January 9, 2002, at 23:46:47
In reply to Re: ECT » sid, posted by bob on January 9, 2002, at 23:38:00
No, not all docs. Namely, there were representatives of patients against it, representing people who had memory loss, who felt violated because they did not want ECT but were forced into it - they were too sick and family members were giving the OK for example. I saw just the end of the program, perhaps 5 minutes, hence the lack of more precise info. I hope they air it again, it was interesting. I mostly heard the pdoc saying he would choose ECT for himslef, before anything else, because that's what works best in his opinion. Heck, I thought, **** the Effexor, I want ECT, if that's true! But I'm scared of it, like most people.
> Was the panel all doctors? I haven't heard of too many doctors against ECT. It is accepted as a necessary treatment in some cases.
Posted by bob on January 9, 2002, at 23:56:36
In reply to Re: ECT » bob, posted by sid on January 9, 2002, at 23:46:47
It's been about 11 years of meds, and I'm having a real hard time functioning on them. In fact, as I look back, I always have had a real hard time. If I could have some assurance that there wouldn't be significant irreversible memory loss, I think I'd do it. I am also scared, like you, and I think many others. The thought of putting electricity through your brain is very off-putting.
Posted by Denise528 on January 10, 2002, at 5:32:24
In reply to Re: ECT » sid, posted by bob on January 9, 2002, at 23:56:36
> Surely if you felt that bad fear of ECT would not be a factor. If I thought ECT would help I would be begging for it.
Denise
Posted by wbill on January 11, 2002, at 10:54:52
In reply to Re: ECT » sid, posted by bob on January 9, 2002, at 23:56:36
> It's been about 11 years of meds, and I'm having a real hard time functioning on them. In fact, as I look back, I always have had a real hard time. If I could have some assurance that there wouldn't be significant irreversible memory loss, I think I'd do it. I am also scared, like you, and I think many others. The thought of putting electricity through your brain is very off-putting.
About two years ago I went through about 20 ECT sessions.Both bilateral and unilateral.During these sessions I went to Disney World with my wife and kids I dont remember even getting on the plane or being at Disney World. Its kind of scarry.Because of this I refused any maintenence ECT sessions. Now I am on several meds and doing fine.
i
Posted by spike4848 on January 12, 2002, at 4:23:27
In reply to Re: ECT, posted by wbill on January 11, 2002, at 10:54:52
> About two years ago I went through about 20 ECT sessions.Both bilateral and unilateral.During these sessions I went to Disney World with my wife and kids I dont remember even getting on the plane or being at Disney World. Its kind of scarry.Because of this I refused any maintenence ECT sessions. Now I am on several meds and doing fine.
>Hi there. Do you mind if I ask what medications are working for you now? Thanks. Spike.
Posted by wbill on January 12, 2002, at 10:04:36
In reply to Re: ECT » wbill, posted by spike4848 on January 12, 2002, at 4:23:27
> > About two years ago I went through about 20 ECT sessions.Both bilateral and unilateral.During these sessions I went to Disney World with my wife and kids I dont remember even getting on the plane or being at Disney World. Its kind of scarry.Because of this I refused any maintenence ECT sessions. Now I am on several meds and doing fine.
> >
>
> Hi there. Do you mind if I ask what medications are working for you now? Thanks. Spike.
Hi Spike,Im taking 40 mg celexa,900 mg lithobid,400 mg wellbutrin,1.5 mg ativan and 10 mg of synthroid.
Plus alot of heart meds,I had a heart attack new years eve. Some of theses meds didnt work before ECT, but started working after ECT.
Posted by spike4848 on January 12, 2002, at 10:28:41
In reply to Re: ECT, posted by wbill on January 12, 2002, at 10:04:36
> Hi Spike,Im taking 40 mg celexa,900 mg lithobid,400 mg wellbutrin,1.5 mg ativan and 10 mg of synthroid.
> Plus alot of heart meds,I had a heart attack new years eve. Some of theses meds didnt work before ECT, but started working after ECT.Thanks .... I glad to hear your feeling well. Happy new year. Spike.
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