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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Anna Laura on December 9, 2001, at 21:41:11
Hi Folks,
I'm currently switching from Effexor to Parnate.
Lowering the dose this week from 300 mg. to 150 mg. as my pdoc prescribed to me to do. I'm expetcted to taper to 75 mg. tomorrow. I somehow sense this is not a very good idea: i've been talking about that with my pdoc last week, told him about Effexor horror stories and i suggested him to taper more slowly but he didn't seem to understand as he was willing to get me rid of Effexor quite fast and put me on Parnate. "My wife has been taking Effexor for a long time and she didn't have any problem quitting. If you experience unpleasant withdrawal symptoms it's because you already have some problems indipendently from Effexor"- was his reply.
Luckily, i didn't have any prominent withdrawal symptoms so far except back pain and some kind of strange, gory nightmares. I woke up in the middle of the night barely knowing who i was and where i was, panicking for a few seconds; I faintly recall bloodshed scenes and accidents; I kow this response it's not related to my depression for sure as i'm doing fairly well except my usual problems with anhedonia and apathy. I noticed this problem gets better as i take SAME.
I'm supposed to call my pdoc tomorrow and tell him how i'm doing but don't feel comfortable as he doesn't seem to be very much informed about Effexor ; perhaps you guys know more about Effexor withdrawing mechanism and you possibly could give me more suggestions about it.
By the way, is it o.k. taking SAME while taking Parnate?Thanks in advance
Posted by psydoc on December 9, 2001, at 22:50:09
In reply to Withdrawing from Effexor: nightmares, posted by Anna Laura on December 9, 2001, at 21:41:11
> Hi Folks,
>
>
> I'm currently switching from Effexor to Parnate.
> Lowering the dose this week from 300 mg. to 150 mg. as my pdoc prescribed to me to do. I'm expetcted to taper to 75 mg. tomorrow. I somehow sense this is not a very good idea: i've been talking about that with my pdoc last week, told him about Effexor horror stories and i suggested him to taper more slowly but he didn't seem to understand as he was willing to get me rid of Effexor quite fast and put me on Parnate. "My wife has been taking Effexor for a long time and she didn't have any problem quitting. If you experience unpleasant withdrawal symptoms it's because you already have some problems indipendently from Effexor"- was his reply.
> Luckily, i didn't have any prominent withdrawal symptoms so far except back pain and some kind of strange, gory nightmares. I woke up in the middle of the night barely knowing who i was and where i was, panicking for a few seconds; I faintly recall bloodshed scenes and accidents; I kow this response it's not related to my depression for sure as i'm doing fairly well except my usual problems with anhedonia and apathy. I noticed this problem gets better as i take SAME.
> I'm supposed to call my pdoc tomorrow and tell him how i'm doing but don't feel comfortable as he doesn't seem to be very much informed about Effexor ; perhaps you guys know more about Effexor withdrawing mechanism and you possibly could give me more suggestions about it.
> By the way, is it o.k. taking SAME while taking Parnate?
>
> Thanks in advanceHi . . .
You might want to checkout the information of withdrawal syndromes at:
http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.withdrawal.htmland print-out a copy for your doc.
Best regards . . .
Ivan
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Posted by Elizabeth on December 10, 2001, at 11:17:38
In reply to Withdrawing from Effexor: nightmares, posted by Anna Laura on December 9, 2001, at 21:41:11
Hi. The thing that comes to mind for your situation is benzodiazepines -- Klonopin, Valium, Serax, .... They can relieve nightmares (and more generally help you sleep better) and they also act as muscle relaxants to various degrees (some are better than others, but I'm not too sure which ones), so they might help with your back pain too.
> "...If you experience unpleasant withdrawal symptoms it's because you already have some problems indipendently from Effexor"- was his reply.
*groan* Has this guy ever heard of REM rebound? (I'm not clear on why you're getting back pain, but REM rebound is probably the cause of the intense dreams -- Effexor, like most ADs, suppresses REM sleep to a degree.)
> I noticed this problem gets better as i take SAME.
Are you planning on taking that with Parnate? I think that might be a problem. I'd look into it very carefully before trying it, and you should probably do so soon because there may be a washout period. Speaking of that, how long after stopping the Effexor does your pdoc want you to wait before starting Parnate?
Hope this helps. Good luck with things.
-elizabeth
Posted by Anna Laura on December 10, 2001, at 12:23:43
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Effexor: nightmares » Anna Laura, posted by Elizabeth on December 10, 2001, at 11:17:38
> Hi. The thing that comes to mind for your situation is benzodiazepines -- Klonopin, Valium, Serax, .... They can relieve nightmares (and more generally help you sleep better) and they also act as muscle relaxants to various degrees (some are better than others, but I'm not too sure which ones), so they might help with your back pain too.
>
> > "...If you experience unpleasant withdrawal symptoms it's because you already have some problems indipendently from Effexor"- was his reply.
>
> *groan* Has this guy ever heard of REM rebound? (I'm not clear on why you're getting back pain, but REM rebound is probably the cause of the intense dreams -- Effexor, like most ADs, suppresses REM sleep to a degree.)
>
> > I noticed this problem gets better as i take SAME.
>
> Are you planning on taking that with Parnate? I think that might be a problem. I'd look into it very carefully before trying it, and you should probably do so soon because there may be a washout period. Speaking of that, how long after stopping the Effexor does your pdoc want you to wait before starting Parnate?
>
> Hope this helps. Good luck with things.
>
> -elizabeth
Thanks for answering Elizabeth.
The pdoc told me to taper Effexor from 300 mg. to 150 mg. right away which i did. He told me to stay on the 150 mg. dose for five days, then to taper to 75 mg. for seven days. I am supposed to take the first pill of Parnate on day eight which will be the next week around Tuesday. I think this is a quite abrupt switch, and i told him about that: he replied i shouldn't worry about it. I' m a little bit scared to take Parnate while having Effexor still going on in my system. This guy is a very well known pdoc though; i was told he has got a great deal of experience since he has been working in the hospital university clinic for more then thirty years. By the way, I'im going to call him tomorrow and tell him about the SAME thing.
Posted by Elizabeth on December 10, 2001, at 19:23:02
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Effexor: nightmares, posted by Anna Laura on December 10, 2001, at 12:23:43
> The pdoc told me to taper Effexor from 300 mg. to 150 mg. right away which i did. He told me to stay on the 150 mg. dose for five days, then to taper to 75 mg. for seven days. I am supposed to take the first pill of Parnate on day eight which will be the next week around Tuesday. I think this is a quite abrupt switch, and i told him about that: he replied i shouldn't worry about it.
I agree with you. I'd give it at least a 5-day washout. Parnate and Effexor together can cause the "serotonin syndrome" even if not taken in overdose.
-elizabeth
Posted by Simcha on December 11, 2001, at 7:40:05
In reply to Withdrawing from Effexor: nightmares, posted by Anna Laura on December 9, 2001, at 21:41:11
Anna-Laura,
Methinks thy physician mightest be ingesting healthy doses of crack!!!!
When tapering off of Effexor I had nightmares. One of them I was dreaming about a nice fluffy kitten. I layed down next to it to pet it. Suddenly it transformed into a giant tarantula. I immediately jumped away from it in my dream. Suddenly I woke up slamming the wall and hitting the floor in REAL LIFE! THAT HURT!!!
I've never had such a vivid nightmare otherwise. Tapering off of Effexor can be tricky business indeed. I don't know whether or not you should taper more slowly. My attitude was to get it out of my system as soon as possible.
Take Care,
Simcha
> Hi Folks,
>
>
> I'm currently switching from Effexor to Parnate.
> Lowering the dose this week from 300 mg. to 150 mg. as my pdoc prescribed to me to do. I'm expetcted to taper to 75 mg. tomorrow. I somehow sense this is not a very good idea: i've been talking about that with my pdoc last week, told him about Effexor horror stories and i suggested him to taper more slowly but he didn't seem to understand as he was willing to get me rid of Effexor quite fast and put me on Parnate. "My wife has been taking Effexor for a long time and she didn't have any problem quitting. If you experience unpleasant withdrawal symptoms it's because you already have some problems indipendently from Effexor"- was his reply.
> Luckily, i didn't have any prominent withdrawal symptoms so far except back pain and some kind of strange, gory nightmares. I woke up in the middle of the night barely knowing who i was and where i was, panicking for a few seconds; I faintly recall bloodshed scenes and accidents; I kow this response it's not related to my depression for sure as i'm doing fairly well except my usual problems with anhedonia and apathy. I noticed this problem gets better as i take SAME.
> I'm supposed to call my pdoc tomorrow and tell him how i'm doing but don't feel comfortable as he doesn't seem to be very much informed about Effexor ; perhaps you guys know more about Effexor withdrawing mechanism and you possibly could give me more suggestions about it.
> By the way, is it o.k. taking SAME while taking Parnate?
>
> Thanks in advance
Posted by Elizabeth on December 11, 2001, at 14:15:53
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Effexor: nightmares » Anna Laura, posted by Simcha on December 11, 2001, at 7:40:05
> Methinks thy physician mightest be ingesting healthy doses of crack!!!!
Exactly what would a "healthy" [nonzero] dose of crack be???
> When tapering off of Effexor I had nightmares. One of them I was dreaming about a nice fluffy kitten. I layed down next to it to pet it. Suddenly it transformed into a giant tarantula. I immediately jumped away from it in my dream. Suddenly I woke up slamming the wall and hitting the floor in REAL LIFE! THAT HURT!!!
That's REM rebound. Things like that actually happened to me pretty frequently long before I ever took antidepressants (the first time I remember it happening was when I was four years old) -- I act out my dreams physically. I didn't really think much of it or realize it wasn't normal until I read a book on the neurobiology of sleep a few years ago. Antidepressants seem to have different effects on it -- desipramine actually made it worse, MAOIs completely eliminated it (not surprisingly, since they thoroughly suppress REM sleep), etc. I haven't noticed any effect from Effexor so far (only at 75 mg).
Anna Laura: once you start the Parnate, the nightmares should go away (if you're still having them by the time you start the Parnate).
-elizabeth
Posted by Simcha on December 11, 2001, at 14:58:49
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Effexor: nightmares » Simcha, posted by Elizabeth on December 11, 2001, at 14:15:53
> > Methinks thy physician mightest be ingesting healthy doses of crack!!!!
>
> Exactly what would a "healthy" [nonzero] dose of crack be???LOL, 'twas a funny way of telling her that the doc was ignorant of withdrawal symptoms from Effexor. I experienced the nightmares and more.
> That's REM rebound. Things like that actually happened to me pretty frequently long before I ever took antidepressants (the first time I remember it happening was when I was four years old) -- I act out my dreams physically. I didn't really think much of it or realize it wasn't normal until I read a book on the neurobiology of sleep a few years ago. Antidepressants seem to have different effects on it -- desipramine actually made it worse, MAOIs completely eliminated it (not surprisingly, since they thoroughly suppress REM sleep), etc. I haven't noticed any effect from Effexor so far (only at 75 mg).I had nightmares nightly when I was a child. I used to sleep on the top bunk of a bunk-bed and I fell off of it on many an occasion.... Hmmm.. I wonder if I have a sleep disorder due to the bloody imbalance in me head! My pdoc tells me that this depression and OCD is a physical/chemical problem and not a spiritual/emotional problem that can be piddled with....
> Anna Laura: once you start the Parnate, the nightmares should go away (if you're still having them by the time you start the Parnate).Anna Laura: All I could do was grin and bear it. I needed to be off of the effexor so that I could have feeling below the waste and that was all there was to it. So I decided to follow the gradual taper off of Effexor onto Wellbutrin and then finally adding Celexa to balance me. It was quite a trip. All things considered I'm doing well today. Stay with it!!!
-Simmy ;-)
Posted by Elizabeth on December 11, 2001, at 16:05:43
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Effexor: nightmares » Elizabeth, posted by Simcha on December 11, 2001, at 14:58:49
> > Exactly what would a "healthy" [nonzero] dose of crack be???
>
> LOL, 'twas a funny way of telling her that the doc was ignorant of withdrawal symptoms from Effexor.Yeah, I got it. Was curious about the crack dose anyway though :-)
> I had nightmares nightly when I was a child. I used to sleep on the top bunk of a bunk-bed and I fell off of it on many an occasion.... Hmmm.. I wonder if I have a sleep disorder due to the bloody imbalance in me head! My pdoc tells me that this depression and OCD is a physical/chemical problem and not a spiritual/emotional problem that can be piddled with....
Heh heh -- "diagnosis: dropped on head as child." :-) Jumping out of bed (fortunately not a bunk) was a common thing for me too -- my dreams weren't nightmares per se, but they were action-packed and had a lot of chase scenes. So in my dream, I would be chasing somebody or being chased, and in real life I'd leap out of my bed, at which point I would wake up on the floor.
I think it sounds like tapering Effexor *slowly* would be the best thing, since you really ought to have a washout period of at least 5 days before starting the MAOI (don't knock it: the a**-covering drug companies recommend two weeks).
-elizabeth
Posted by Simcha on December 12, 2001, at 7:46:11
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Effexor: nightmares » Simcha, posted by Elizabeth on December 11, 2001, at 16:05:43
> Heh heh -- "diagnosis: dropped on head as child." :-) Jumping out of bed (fortunately not a bunk) was a common thing for me too -- my dreams weren't nightmares per se, but they were action-packed and had a lot of chase scenes. So in my dream, I would be chasing somebody or being chased, and in real life I'd leap out of my bed, at which point I would wake up on the floor.
>
> I think it sounds like tapering Effexor *slowly* would be the best thing, since you really ought to have a washout period of at least 5 days before starting the MAOI (don't knock it: the a**-covering drug companies recommend two weeks).
>Yeah, Slow is the way to go! ;-)
Elizabeth,
I wonder how many other babblers had these "active" dreams. I wonder if this is common for people who have conditions such as ours?
Hmmm....
Posted by Elizabeth on December 12, 2001, at 16:18:03
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Effexor: nightmares » Elizabeth, posted by Simcha on December 12, 2001, at 7:46:11
> I wonder how many other babblers had these "active" dreams. I wonder if this is common for people who have conditions such as ours?
I don't think it's that common. My sleep disorder diagnosis is REM sleep behavior disorder. It's pretty common among people with narcolepsy, and older men who have it frequently go on to develop Parkinson's disease. But I haven't seen it a lot in people with mood or anxiety disorders much, except in antidepressant withdrawal.
-elizabeth
Posted by Mags on December 12, 2001, at 22:11:42
In reply to Re: active dreaming » Simcha, posted by Elizabeth on December 12, 2001, at 16:18:03
I am a first time poster but have been lurking here for many months. I want to THANK everyone who regularily posts here. The info I have learned has been so valuable. I have been reading this thread with great interest as I too sufferred UNBELIEVABLE nightmares while coming off Effexor. I was also put on Desipramine and Lithium at the same time...no wonder I was so bad...I can still remember every vivid detail of those dreams and that was back in June....I didn't sleep for nights I was so terrified! Thanks for reading this..helped to get off my chest....I am now On Lamictal and doing MUCH better...Mags
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