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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Edward on October 17, 2001, at 16:50:20
I've just been diagnosed with depression again, in a vague manner: "I can't see any obvious reason why you should have been depressed for so long [about 6 years], so I'm inclined to think that the problem must be a biochemical one, etc." However, I don't consider myself depressed. I do very little: I'm in education for about 4 hours a week, and do nothing else. I have no real hobbies or deep interests either, so I tend to end up sitting around at home a lot. I also have a slight problem with nervousness, which makes going to my lessons quite difficult because I panic sometimes and start having problems breathing. These are probably the reasons why I'm unhappy (if I need any reason to be- normal people ARE unhappy as far as I can tell); I'm not pathologically depressed. I've met a few genuinely depressed people, who don't initiate conversation, very rarely smile and never laugh. They are not like me or the many other misdiagnosed "depressives" that I have met. I laugh, I joke, I go out sometimes to see my friends. Until recently, I have had little or no problem with insomnia or anorexia, two important symptoms of depression. I was quiet and nervous in my appointment today and I believe that the pdoc mistook shyness for misery.
Anyway, my pdoc suggested anti-depressants. I was all for ADs last time I was told I had depression, naively thinking that in 3+ weeks I would feel glad to be alive, but experience has put me off. First was fluvoxamine, which had no noticable effect except for terrible depression after it was withdrawn. Then came mirtazapine, which got me out of said depression, but never made me feel better than I was before fluvoxamine. Since withdrawing the mirtazapine (2-3 weeks ago), I have been eating, on average, half a plate of dinner each day and staying awake until 3am without the aid of non-prescription drugs. My personality seems to have been changed since these two drugs. I am cold; rarely sad, never joyful. I don't fall in love anymore, and my appreciation of the small things in life seems to have gone even more than it had previously. If I could have known a year ago how I'd feel now, I'd never have taken the ADs.
However, my main problem with ADs is that they can't help people like me who aren't depressed. What is the point in taking a drug that permanently alters your brain chemistry and has unpleasant side-effects and withdrawal symptoms if it isn't going to do anything?
I've been through psychotherapy twice. My first therapist did nothing for me, my second helped me to acknowledge that I might have some kind of anxiety problem. She suggested a few other things too, for example that I am not a lazy, selfish and disgusting human being, but that my motivation has been sapped by a mental illness. It was very hurtful because I knew she was wrong from her argument, but I was too scared to admit to her what an awful person I am. No solutions to any of the problems that were discussed ever came up, except to face my fears. I already faced most of my fears regularly, and I still do, except for the ones that seem likely to leave me lying on the ground hyperventilating.
The point of this long whiney post is that I don't know what to do. I can't seem to cope with my life. I don't like being alive at least 90% of the time and haven't since age 11, without really knowing why. I can't see any way out from what psychiatry has offered me over the past two years, and at the moment the best solution seems to be to get a job and self-medicate with cannabis, which taken daily in divided doses usually gives me enough opportunity to feel real emotions and get some pleasure out of life, people and music (the love of my life until a year or two ago) to put up with the misery. Obviously, it's not a good solution, and I will find it hard to keep going until I find a job easy enough for an idiot like me. What should I do? Do you guys think that I might be depressed? I don't really think I meet the diagnosis, but sometimes it seems that it might just explain why my life seems so unbearable. Could there be some other problem (not counting a bad personality!)? Should I take ADs? Does anyone have any advice to do with anything I've mentioned? This post has taken me over an hour and a half to write (surely proof that I have more motivation that a real depressive?), and I apologise profusely for its long, self-pitying and slightly aimless/uncertain/self-contradictory nature.
Thank you for reading it all,
Ed
Posted by dannyboy on October 17, 2001, at 17:53:46
In reply to Should i take AD's?, posted by Edward on October 17, 2001, at 16:50:20
Hey Ed -
I would have doubts that you need to be on ad's. I think that these medications should really only be used if someone has experienced prolonged, marked changes in their personality and/or are virtually unable to function in day-to-day life due to depression or anxiety. Then, ad's can truly be a life-saver. However, if you tend to be less than an ecstatic person, and that is simply your personality, and you are still able to function and live life the way that *YOU* want to, you are probably fine.
Something to consider, which you might find way too much of a mind-wank, but here goes - I don't know if you are an American, but if so, be aware that our culture puts inordinate importance on seeming to be a chipper, upbeat person, always ready to flash a smile at every stranger and to display great zest for living. (We certainly expect this from everybody in the service industry...) Having traveled abroad (primarily in France) I have experienced that this way of being is simply a cultural construct - in France, you can be a serious, thoughtful, introspective person who is not a "sunny Jim" and you will be considered to be perfectly normal. In America, the same person could be seen as depressive and morose. I have gained a great deal of self-acceptance by living there, because I was able to realize that my feelings of being "out of tune" with others was due mostly to cultural expectations that I could not fulfill, and do not wish to fulfill.
Perhaps this is all nonsense, but it makes some sense to me... I wish you luck.
One more thing. My step father has experienced panic attacks his whole life, was taking medication for many years... However, he found that simply by breathing into a paper bag, he can halt feelings of hyperventilating. He still carries a bag with him wherever he goes, but never uses it anymore. Just knowing he has it comforts him. And he's been med-free for over a decade!
Daniel
Posted by Kat26 on October 17, 2001, at 18:58:50
In reply to Should i take AD's?, posted by Edward on October 17, 2001, at 16:50:20
Hello Ed
I can sort of relate to you, I mean it reminds me of a time I went through, between high school and college - sitting around at home a lot, doing nothing. Being scared of everything too. Developing compulsions and stuff. Still trying to get over anorexia too... well I pretty much was ok with that again but it had left me feeling "empty".
How old are you?Kat
Posted by Edward on October 17, 2001, at 19:18:10
In reply to AD's are not simply for mental plastic surgery!, posted by dannyboy on October 17, 2001, at 17:53:46
Thank you for answering
> I think that these medications should really only be used if someone has experienced prolonged, marked changes in their personality and/or are virtually unable to function in day-to-day life due to depression or anxiety.
I agree. But it's hard to know. I haven't functioned day-to-day for a while. I spent ten months going to a mental hospital, mostly as a day patient. I don't if this happened because of depression and anxiety or just general laziness (or a bit of both). I panicked both times I went into lessons last week. I think perhaps I need some medication for that if not for my pseudo-depression.
There _was_ a marked change in my personality when I was 11, from a content, hard working child to my first suicide attempt within days. But it was such a long time ago, it doesn't seem to mean much anymore. People tend to change at that age anyway.
> However, if you tend to be less than an ecstatic person, and that is simply your personality, and you are still able to function and live life the way that *YOU* want to, you are probably fine.
I don't feel fine, but that doesn't mean that ADs will help.
> I don't know if you are an American, but if so, be aware that our culture puts inordinate importance on seeming to be a chipper, upbeat person
I'm english
A thought: would anyone with major depression really bother leaving posts on this website despite their loss of motivation and interest in life?
Posted by Edward on October 17, 2001, at 19:26:48
In reply to Re: Should i take AD's?, posted by Kat26 on October 17, 2001, at 18:58:50
> Hello Ed
> I can sort of relate to you, I mean it reminds me of a time I went through, between high school and college - sitting around at home a lot, doing nothing. Being scared of everything too. Developing compulsions and stuff. Still trying to get over anorexia too... well I pretty much was ok with that again but it had left me feeling "empty".
> How old are you?17. How are you now? Did you make it to college? BTW, when I said "anorexia" I meant loss of appetite, not A.N.
Posted by Collete on October 17, 2001, at 20:04:29
In reply to Should i take AD's?, posted by Edward on October 17, 2001, at 16:50:20
Personally, I think there is a very GOOD chance that you ARE depressed. Depression doesn't always mean that you just feel "sad" or that you are unable to joke and laugh. I am very capable of hiding a lot of my depression symptoms and I think the "outside world" would see me as outgoing and cheerful. You really need to learn more about the symptoms of this illness which often can be "lazyness", lack of motivation or disire, no real interests or joy from life, feeling like a "loser" or just a general tendency to want to stay in the house and be alone ( but not feeling good about it). This is not a very complete list of symptoms, but rather just something to start you rethinking your definition of depression. You sound like you are to me. One way to know for sure IS a trial of a month or more on antidepressant. Good luck, Collette
Posted by Rakken on October 17, 2001, at 21:02:54
In reply to Re: Should i take AD's?, posted by Collete on October 17, 2001, at 20:04:29
You cannot claim that a person does not have major depression just because they laugh or smile sometimes. Motivation is not destroyed completely in severely depressed people. In fact it can sometimes be stronger in certain aspects such as attempting to reach out for help. For example going to a message board and trying to get some support or advice. Writing for an hour and a half is not a sign that you have more motivation than a severely depressed person. Insomnia is not a sure sign of major depression. It is a symptom in some cases but sometimes the person can get very lethargic and tired. They may sleep a lot more often and in longer periods than usual. Many times they may self medicate since they really don't see any point in things. Weed only decreases a person's motivation. It's a proven fact which can be backed by anyone who smokes regularly. My advice to you is get off the pot. If not completely, then at least limit it to a couple times a week. You're using it way too much. And its not helping your situation. You do seem to have something wrong with you. And you definitely don't sound happy. If you have thought of and especially if you have tried suicide you are depressed. I don't understand how you can deny it unless you're smoking some really whacked out bud. SSRI's probably aren't the answer. You need some energy. Try something like Wellbutrin. You might not be severely depressed but you do sound like you're depressed. Try and get better and don't lose touch with reality.
Posted by dannyboy on October 17, 2001, at 21:34:28
In reply to Re: AD's are not simply for mental plastic surgery! » dannyboy, posted by Edward on October 17, 2001, at 19:18:10
Edward -
Of course I don't know you, and I'm certainly not a doctor, but you've made it clear that you are very unhappy and your life is limited by your feelings. Depression is a very insidious condition, and manifests itself in many ways, and does not have to completely incapitate an individual to require some treatment. From what you have described (and certainly acknowledging your suicide attempt) I would suggest that you are dealing with depression. In this case, AD's IN CONJUNCTION with therapy with a psychologist whom you trust and respect might bring about dramatic results.
Since you have been encountering these feelings for so long, I think you have an added burden of discerning between what you would consider your "baseline" level of happiness and what is less than that. I am 27 years old, and didn't begin to suffer symptoms of depression/anxiety until about 3 years ago. Hence, I am able to remember when I DID feel satisfied and at ease and can see if medications/treatment are helping me to reattain that level of happiness. This is not the case for you, since you have been feeling **not right** since adolescence. And no, in my layman's opinion it's not a normal part of puberty to attempt suicide!
Funny you should mention it, but I didn't begin to believe that things were seriously wrong with me until I lost interest in music too... Music has always been able to exhilerate and touch me, and when I was left cold by what used to bring me so much pleasure, I was finally convinced that something was no longer right.
Even though you are motivated enough to write a message and seek help, that does not mean that you do not need help. Depression can leave people completely bed-ridden and unable to move; I don't think you need to set this as your "rock-bottom" that will force you to seek treatment. Go for it now, and see if other AD's will help you more than the others. And remember, it is HARD WORK to overcome depression! But the rewards are great....
Good luck to you,
Daniel
I agree. But it's hard to know. I haven't functioned day-to-day for a while. I spent ten months going to a mental hospital, mostly as a day patient. I don't if this happened because of depression and anxiety or just general laziness (or a bit of both). I panicked both times I went into lessons last week. I think perhaps I need some medication for that if not for my pseudo-depression.
>
> There _was_ a marked change in my personality when I was 11, from a content, hard working child to my first suicide attempt within days. But it was such a long time ago, it doesn't seem to mean much anymore. People tend to change at that age anyway.
>
> I don't feel fine, but that doesn't mean that ADs will help.
>
> A thought: would anyone with major depression really bother leaving posts on this website despite their loss of motivation and interest in life?
Posted by Gracie2 on October 18, 2001, at 2:09:24
In reply to Should i take AD's?, posted by Edward on October 17, 2001, at 16:50:20
Ed,
Are you an artist?
Posted by Edward on October 18, 2001, at 18:37:21
In reply to Re: Should i take AD's?, posted by Gracie2 on October 18, 2001, at 2:09:24
>
> Ed,
> Are you an artist?What's an artist?
I used to like writing songs and singing (in fact it was what I was planning to do with my life) until I started listening to classical music. I was interested in writing from an early age, although I've only ever managed to bring myself to the end of any serious work once (a short story), and it is probably clear from my posts that my prose is completely unexceptional. I've also flirted with drawing and oil painting. I rarely bother with any of it anymore; it all seems exceedingly pointless, and pretty boring. Occasionally I feel a slight touch of inspiration, but it's hard to take it seriously. I'm not sure how you define an artist, but hopefully I've answered your question. Why do you ask?
Ed
Posted by Edward on October 18, 2001, at 19:22:16
In reply to Re: Should i take AD's?, posted by Rakken on October 17, 2001, at 21:02:54
> If you have thought of and especially if you have tried suicide you are depressed. I don't understand how you can deny it unless you're smoking some really whacked out bud.
I can deny it because I believe that people can be driven to suicide by any deep unhappiness which seemingly cannot be resolved, unhappiness not necessarily caused by depression. I know a number of people who have attempted suicide. Many of them are not clinically depressed, and have not been prescribed ADs by their pdoc, but have other mental or emotional problems.
Posted by kid47 on October 19, 2001, at 11:34:07
In reply to Should i take AD's?, posted by Edward on October 17, 2001, at 16:50:20
Hi. Sorry you're feeling lousy. From what I have learned through my own experience & the experiences of others, what you are desrcibing is textbook clinical depression. Finding the right meds & a good doc can be a real challenge. But when you do, you will be amazed. We feel a certain way for so long it becomes our normal state. Not until we get proper treatment, and remission, do we realize how badly we have felt. Do what you can when you can to continue seeking a remedy. It will be worth it. Good luck. Take care.
kid
> I've just been diagnosed with depression again, in a vague manner: "I can't see any obvious reason why you should have been depressed for so long [about 6 years], so I'm inclined to think that the problem must be a biochemical one, etc." However, I don't consider myself depressed. I do very little: I'm in education for about 4 hours a week, and do nothing else. I have no real hobbies or deep interests either, so I tend to end up sitting around at home a lot. I also have a slight problem with nervousness, which makes going to my lessons quite difficult because I panic sometimes and start having problems breathing. These are probably the reasons why I'm unhappy (if I need any reason to be- normal people ARE unhappy as far as I can tell); I'm not pathologically depressed. I've met a few genuinely depressed people, who don't initiate conversation, very rarely smile and never laugh. They are not like me or the many other misdiagnosed "depressives" that I have met. I laugh, I joke, I go out sometimes to see my friends. Until recently, I have had little or no problem with insomnia or anorexia, two important symptoms of depression. I was quiet and nervous in my appointment today and I believe that the pdoc mistook shyness for misery.
>
> Anyway, my pdoc suggested anti-depressants. I was all for ADs last time I was told I had depression, naively thinking that in 3+ weeks I would feel glad to be alive, but experience has put me off. First was fluvoxamine, which had no noticable effect except for terrible depression after it was withdrawn. Then came mirtazapine, which got me out of said depression, but never made me feel better than I was before fluvoxamine. Since withdrawing the mirtazapine (2-3 weeks ago), I have been eating, on average, half a plate of dinner each day and staying awake until 3am without the aid of non-prescription drugs. My personality seems to have been changed since these two drugs. I am cold; rarely sad, never joyful. I don't fall in love anymore, and my appreciation of the small things in life seems to have gone even more than it had previously. If I could have known a year ago how I'd feel now, I'd never have taken the ADs.
>
> However, my main problem with ADs is that they can't help people like me who aren't depressed. What is the point in taking a drug that permanently alters your brain chemistry and has unpleasant side-effects and withdrawal symptoms if it isn't going to do anything?
>
> I've been through psychotherapy twice. My first therapist did nothing for me, my second helped me to acknowledge that I might have some kind of anxiety problem. She suggested a few other things too, for example that I am not a lazy, selfish and disgusting human being, but that my motivation has been sapped by a mental illness. It was very hurtful because I knew she was wrong from her argument, but I was too scared to admit to her what an awful person I am. No solutions to any of the problems that were discussed ever came up, except to face my fears. I already faced most of my fears regularly, and I still do, except for the ones that seem likely to leave me lying on the ground hyperventilating.
>
> The point of this long whiney post is that I don't know what to do. I can't seem to cope with my life. I don't like being alive at least 90% of the time and haven't since age 11, without really knowing why. I can't see any way out from what psychiatry has offered me over the past two years, and at the moment the best solution seems to be to get a job and self-medicate with cannabis, which taken daily in divided doses usually gives me enough opportunity to feel real emotions and get some pleasure out of life, people and music (the love of my life until a year or two ago) to put up with the misery. Obviously, it's not a good solution, and I will find it hard to keep going until I find a job easy enough for an idiot like me. What should I do? Do you guys think that I might be depressed? I don't really think I meet the diagnosis, but sometimes it seems that it might just explain why my life seems so unbearable. Could there be some other problem (not counting a bad personality!)? Should I take ADs? Does anyone have any advice to do with anything I've mentioned? This post has taken me over an hour and a half to write (surely proof that I have more motivation that a real depressive?), and I apologise profusely for its long, self-pitying and slightly aimless/uncertain/self-contradictory nature.
>
> Thank you for reading it all,
>
> Ed
Posted by Gracie2 on October 19, 2001, at 17:00:46
In reply to Re: Should i take AD's? » Gracie2, posted by Edward on October 18, 2001, at 18:37:21
Ed,
I can't pinpoint any single thing you said to make me think that you're an artist, but I did get that impression. By artist I mean a creative person - a painter, writer, poet, musician - and others who create - jewelry-makers, cake decorators, interior designers, gourmet chefs.My unofficial, amateur opinion is that you ARE depressed and have been so since childhood. You probably did not see me, but I was in the same boat with you. I believe as you do, that "normal" is nothing but a setting on a washing machine (I believe I read that quote here on PB). Still, you have been depressed for such a long time, you believe that this is an ingrained part of your personality and there's nothing you can do about it. It's not true.
I am an artist myself (it doesn't provide a steady income, but maybe some day). When I'm feeling depressed, my painting - like you said -
becomes boring and pointless. Losing interest in the things you like is a definate sign of depression. I wouldn't be surprised if, with proper treatment and medication, your creative spirit will return. It's a shame to waste a God-given talent, and not using it - I believe - will only depress you further.It seems clear to me, unfair as it is, that "creative types" - from Slyvia Plath to Jackson Pollock - often struggle with depression.
I think you owe it to yourself to find a good psychiatrist (see "doctor shopping" thread above)
and start therapy. If you have concerns about ADs,
discuss that with your pdoc. At the very least, you could get a prescription for Xanax or Klonapin to take PRN (only when you are feeling particularly anxious about something).Please give it a try, and good luck - we may all be asking for your autograph someday.
*Gracie
P.S. Your prose is excellent.
Posted by Neal on October 19, 2001, at 23:29:20
In reply to Should i take AD's?, posted by Edward on October 17, 2001, at 16:50:20
>but sometimes it seems that it might just explain why my life seems so unbearable.
I think you're depressed, maybe not majorly depressed, but depressed.
Posted by Edward on October 21, 2001, at 10:28:26
In reply to Re: Should i take AD's?, posted by Gracie2 on October 19, 2001, at 17:00:46
Thank you (and everyone else who replied) for being so supportive. Still I'm not totally convinced that I am depressed, but I think I will give ADs at least one more try. Somedays I feel a little different, that perhaps I _could_ feel emotionally connected with the world, and that once (as a younger child) I did. Maybe ADs will make the connection. Tranquilizers on the other hand...I'd think I'd find a way to turn them into habit, not such a good idea.
Ed
This is the end of the thread.
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