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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by adamie on August 31, 2001, at 16:54:31
I have generally had a very bad experience with anti depressants. There is no doubt in my mind that for the time I have went on anti depressants they made me feel worse and in one case much much worse (effexor). My depression is also caused by accutane (excess vitamin A). So it's a very rare type of depression where I generally have extremely bad concentration compared to normal. And this causes lack of emotions and inability to enjoy things.While I am doing somewhat better now off meds I feel if I become worse again I will need to take something just for the sake of trying again. I will have adrafinil soon. I made an order but assuming it doesn't work is it possible that while the anti depressants make me worse that in the end when the full AD effect comes in it will make me feel better? Or perhaps the whole problem is the AD effect. Perhaps inhibiting re-uptake is just not for me. And therefor the longer I stay on a med the worse it would make me? This is what happened with effexor. I was only on it for 1 week but it actually made me feel suicidal. almost constant mind torture. The first dose I took I know I didn't feel right. It created some type of apathy and I just felt detached from the world. Then the second day I was feeling my usual bad self. Then 3rd day worse. much worse. then 4th day much worse. 5th day worse. ect.. 7 days into it I just had to stop. It hasn't been as bad with wellbutrin, zyprexa, and also paxil.
Could it be that something these anti depressants do is just bad for me while the full anti depressant effect later on would make me feel better?
I read somewhere that for people where seratonin meds cause worsening of depression that an anti convulsant could be good. But all anti depressants in general (at least from what I have tried) have made me worse. so i dunno.
does someone know how the anti convulsants work? do they inhibit re-uptake? I hope they have a very different action than these AD's.
Hopefully it wont come to me having to go another med but in case I feel bad enough and up to trying something else I think I may try Remeron. Since it's supossed to even possibly work in just a few days, and sometimes in a week. fact acting. so finally I will be able to give something a full trial. Since for remeron that would be maybe 4 weeks instead of the usual 6-8 to be sure of sucess or failure. If it wouldn't make me too much worse I could stick with it.
Does anyone have any insight to my problem? While the meds make me emotionally feel worse at first could they make me much better in the end? Does anyone have any knowledge or experience in such a situation? And regarding side effects, I have had almost none at all! Nothing bothersome in all those 4 meds I tried. Except sedation from zyprexa and of course the worsening of depression but I consider that aside from side effects. It is simply something that is wrong. It's not supossed to happen. Thanks for reading.
Posted by SalArmy4me on August 31, 2001, at 17:04:04
In reply to AD's make me feel worse before better?, posted by adamie on August 31, 2001, at 16:54:31
No one has been able to decisively prove that adrafinil has any appreciable antidepressant effect (supposedly it works on norepinephrine). It would have to be clinically tried with imipramine or fluoxetine as a "litmus test."
I was thinking about Tianeptine (Stablon) for you, a French antidepressant. It does the opposite of what most antidepressants do. It _enhances_ serotonin reuptake rather than inhibits it--something that is truly novel and oddly enough effective in cases of treatment-resistant depression. (http://www.smart-drugs.net/tianeptine/tianeptine-articles.htm)
Posted by adamie on August 31, 2001, at 17:18:48
In reply to Re: AD's make me feel worse before better? » adamie, posted by SalArmy4me on August 31, 2001, at 17:04:04
> No one has been able to decisively prove that adrafinil has any appreciable antidepressant effect (supposedly it works on norepinephrine). It would have to be clinically tried with imipramine or fluoxetine as a "litmus test."
>
> I was thinking about Tianeptine (Stablon) for you, a French antidepressant. It does the opposite of what most antidepressants do. It _enhances_ serotonin reuptake rather than inhibits it--something that is truly novel and oddly enough effective in cases of treatment-resistant depression. (http://www.smart-drugs.net/tianeptine/tianeptine-articles.htm)Tianeptine certainly does look interesting. I'll read more of those articles. So far it's a deffinite possibility for me in the future.
Posted by JohnL on August 31, 2001, at 18:04:46
In reply to AD's make me feel worse before better?, posted by adamie on August 31, 2001, at 16:54:31
Can antidepressants actually make you feel worse? Yes, definitely they can. It has happened here at this board more times than I can count over the last three years, including with me.
Sometimes the underlying root cause of the depression has nothing at all to do with low serotonin or whatever. Based on what you have said, I feel encouraged that your order of Adrafinil could be a more pleasant experience for you than the antidepressants were. Adrafinil does not raise or lower the common neurotransmitters. Instead it acts like a turbocharger for existing neurotransmitters, so to speak.
Some people will claim that you do indeed have to feel worse before you start feeling better. I don't know, that just indicates to me that the particular med is way off target. Sure, it might end up working somewhat if given enough time to go through chain reaction domino kind of stuff, but I personally don't like that route. Suicide and losing hope is too much of a risk when someone starts feeling worse. It's not worth it. Better to switch course immediately. That's what my pdoc always did with me. He did not hesitate to take me off of a dud drug and try me on something else. He knew that in the meantime my baseline depression was more acceptable than feeling suicidal after starting a new drug. Too much risk. Too much pain. There is always a better drug.
For you the best drug could easily end up being something that is not an antidepressant. Something like Adrafinil, Ritalin, Adderall, Zyprexa, Risperdal. If your body tells you it doesn't like antidepressants, I personally think it is wise to listen to your body's intuition. It is trying to tell you something. There are important clues to be had, clues that can help point you in a better direction.
No doubt there will be reports of people who felt worse, weathered the storm, and then later felt better. That's fine for them. But not for me or my pdoc.
John
Posted by adamie on August 31, 2001, at 18:49:16
In reply to Re: AD's make me feel worse before better?, posted by JohnL on August 31, 2001, at 18:04:46
> Can antidepressants actually make you feel worse? Yes, definitely they can. It has happened here at this board more times than I can count over the last three years, including with me.
>
> Sometimes the underlying root cause of the depression has nothing at all to do with low serotonin or whatever. Based on what you have said, I feel encouraged that your order of Adrafinil could be a more pleasant experience for you than the antidepressants were. Adrafinil does not raise or lower the common neurotransmitters. Instead it acts like a turbocharger for existing neurotransmitters, so to speak.
>
> Some people will claim that you do indeed have to feel worse before you start feeling better. I don't know, that just indicates to me that the particular med is way off target. Sure, it might end up working somewhat if given enough time to go through chain reaction domino kind of stuff, but I personally don't like that route. Suicide and losing hope is too much of a risk when someone starts feeling worse. It's not worth it. Better to switch course immediately. That's what my pdoc always did with me. He did not hesitate to take me off of a dud drug and try me on something else. He knew that in the meantime my baseline depression was more acceptable than feeling suicidal after starting a new drug. Too much risk. Too much pain. There is always a better drug.
>
> For you the best drug could easily end up being something that is not an antidepressant. Something like Adrafinil, Ritalin, Adderall, Zyprexa, Risperdal. If your body tells you it doesn't like antidepressants, I personally think it is wise to listen to your body's intuition. It is trying to tell you something. There are important clues to be had, clues that can help point you in a better direction.
>
> No doubt there will be reports of people who felt worse, weathered the storm, and then later felt better. That's fine for them. But not for me or my pdoc.
> Johnhi John. I mentioned AD's simply due to the reluctance of canadian doctors to prescribe anything else for depression. I am going to see my family physician next week and hopefully I can convince him to precribe me a fast acting stimulant like some of the ones you mentioned. Regarding ordering online, my mom wont allow any more orders unless I will be able to convince her or put up my own cash which I dont have yet. So I just hope I'll be able to get the stimulants normally. Otherwize they'll be deffinite future choices.
The adrafinil does sound great though so perhaps that will be all I need. I have for quite some time wanted fast acting stimulants above everything else but we'll just see if I'll be able to get them. If not then they'll have to wait a bit. They may be a temporary solution and addictive but that doesn't matter. What I need is exactly a temporary solution since my specific depression/problem is supossed to completely go away in time. usually 8 months.
Regarding Zyprexa, I have some right now. I took it along with wellbutrin. I felt quite bad on the combination. But perhaps by itself it could be worth a try again. I will see later on. It's just strange how my mood can vary so greatly when I get on these meds. Right now I am able to feel quite a bit for my perfect fiance and mind torture is quite mild. little motivation still. small ability to enjoy things. better than none at all. While on both the Wellbutrin and Zyprexa it was such a chore to try and do things. Mind torture was significantly greater. Worse concentration and various other things.
Come to think of it I think even if I am not prescribed adderall, ritalin, concerta, or another stimulant I may be able to convince the woman to order me some. I just remembered I had some extra cash. We'll see what happens. thanks for the reply.
Posted by Margit on August 31, 2001, at 19:40:47
In reply to AD's make me feel worse before better?, posted by adamie on August 31, 2001, at 16:54:31
> Adamie,
I have been on several ADs and they always made me worse before better. I took early on one of the old ADs and it takes a long time before you will feel better (they have a lot of side effects too). 6 years ago I started Paxil and it made me at first very jittery, anxious, you name it, ; and then after about 6-8 weeks I felt wonderful. My panic and depression were gone. 4 months ago after trials of different ADs (I had quit the paxil 1 year ago), I started Paxil again and it made me worse, but this time it didn't get better. I became lethargic, lost interest in everything. They upped the dose to 30mg and I became so numb and emotionless, all I could think about was death. Well my pdoc reduced it back to 20mg, and after reading some of JohnL's posts, we started adding Zyprexa and Ritalin. The Ritalin worked right away and after 5 days fizzled out. Because of my anxiety I can't up the dose. The Zyprexa took about 2 weeks for me to kick in, because the last few days I feel Live is good again. However, I am switching, or at least want to try what Amisulpride can do. I am starting next week with Amisulpride instead the Zyprexa and Ritalin. After all the praise I heard I am very hopeful. I never thought that I would have the nerve to take an AP, but after feeling like h**l for the last 14 months, and tasting for the last few days how life can be again, the risk outways any fears. Good luck in your search and I hope you will find the right med for you.
Margit
Posted by Margit on August 31, 2001, at 19:47:11
In reply to AD's make me feel worse before better?, posted by adamie on August 31, 2001, at 16:54:31
In regard to Remeron I had a negative experience. I was on it for 3 months and it didn't help my PD, anxiety, or depression. I was on 15mg and every time they tried to up the dose I got Panic attacks. It also made me very sedated. When I woke up after sleeping for 12 hours, I set in a chair and just felt numb, lethargic, and couldn't get moving. But that may not be the same with you. Everybody reacts different. Just thought I share.
Posted by adamie on August 31, 2001, at 20:21:34
In reply to Re: AD's make me feel worse before better?, posted by Margit on August 31, 2001, at 19:40:47
> > Adamie,
>
> I have been on several ADs and they always made me worse before better. I took early on one of the old ADs and it takes a long time before you will feel better (they have a lot of side effects too). 6 years ago I started Paxil and it made me at first very jittery, anxious, you name it, ; and then after about 6-8 weeks I felt wonderful. My panic and depression were gone. 4 months ago after trials of different ADs (I had quit the paxil 1 year ago), I started Paxil again and it made me worse, but this time it didn't get better. I became lethargic, lost interest in everything. They upped the dose to 30mg and I became so numb and emotionless, all I could think about was death. Well my pdoc reduced it back to 20mg, and after reading some of JohnL's posts, we started adding Zyprexa and Ritalin. The Ritalin worked right away and after 5 days fizzled out. Because of my anxiety I can't up the dose. The Zyprexa took about 2 weeks for me to kick in, because the last few days I feel Live is good again. However, I am switching, or at least want to try what Amisulpride can do. I am starting next week with Amisulpride instead the Zyprexa and Ritalin. After all the praise I heard I am very hopeful. I never thought that I would have the nerve to take an AP, but after feeling like h**l for the last 14 months, and tasting for the last few days how life can be again, the risk outways any fears. Good luck in your search and I hope you will find the right med for you.
> Margithi. thanks for replying. Regarding the worse before better, does this include depression getting worse before you felt better or just other things like your anxiety? Because that has been exactly what happens with me. Depression in some cases much much worse, while other times just 'much' worse. Has this been normal with you? And after this worsening effect it gets much better? thanks for replying
Posted by Margit on August 31, 2001, at 20:46:51
In reply to Re: AD's make me feel worse before better? » Margit, posted by adamie on August 31, 2001, at 20:21:34
Adamie,
the first time on the old AD the depression got worse and then better. My experience with Paxil: the first time I didn't get any worsening depression, just the other stuff; this last time my depression got worse, especially after they raised it. Then they lowered it again. It only got better after adding Ritalin and Zyprexa.
This is the end of the thread.
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