![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 56. Go back in thread:
Posted by Elizabeth on August 10, 2001, at 15:56:05
In reply to Re: parnate questions » Elizabeth, posted by Cam W. on August 9, 2001, at 22:06:25
> Elizabeth - Thanks for the info, much appreciated. Like I say, working in community pharmacy, we don't get all the fun you see on ER.
I should send them some plot ideas, perhaps in the form of my medical records. Lots of wild crazy stuff in there, I'm sure they could make a few suitably dramatic episodes out of it with some artistic license. < g >
I appreciated your response to Sal and Kristi. As always, very reasonable.
So, do you think that people on chronic opioid therapy should have emergency medical bracelets or tags? I'm imagining a situation where hospital staff didn't realise that a person was tolerant and as a result the patient didn't receive adequate pain medication. On the other hand, I can appreciate why people on MMT would not want to advertise that information.
-elizabeth
Posted by Cam W. on August 10, 2001, at 16:04:06
In reply to Re: parnate questions » Cam W., posted by Elizabeth on August 10, 2001, at 15:56:05
Elizabeth - It might be a good idea to at least have a card in a wallet (not as noticeable) in the form of an I.D., with medical information in red, on it. Of course it might be missed, but emerg will go through your pockets and purse to find out who you are (hopefully).
Do you think that "Smart Cards" would be of help in an instance such as this?
- Cam
Posted by Elizabeth on August 10, 2001, at 16:56:10
In reply to Re: parnate questions » Elizabeth, posted by Cam W. on August 10, 2001, at 16:04:06
> Elizabeth - It might be a good idea to at least have a card in a wallet (not as noticeable) in the form of an I.D., with medical information in red, on it. Of course it might be missed, but emerg will go through your pockets and purse to find out who you are (hopefully).
I do have a wallet card that says I take buprenorphine and the dose. It's outdated, unfortunately (has former pdoc's number and old address, and says I'm taking Parnate as well). I should probably replace that.
> Do you think that "Smart Cards" would be of help in an instance such as this?
Umm. That depends on what "Smart Cards" are! :-)
-elizabeth
Posted by shelliR on August 10, 2001, at 17:56:03
In reply to Re: parnate questions » Cam W., posted by Elizabeth on August 10, 2001, at 16:56:10
> > Elizabeth - It might be a good idea to at least have a card in a wallet (not as noticeable) in the form of an I.D., with medical information in red, on it. Of course it might be missed, but emerg will go through your pockets and purse to find out who you are (hopefully).
>
> Umm. That depends on what "Smart Cards" are! :-)Yes, I would also like to know this. (a guess: digital cards?)
Neither of you answered my questions, above. please (I do really hate to beg) : *(
And since neither of you answered, I'll ask another, the most important to me at this moment.Is it possible that my use of opiates (oxycontin, pdoc prescribed) for depression can have any negative impact on my reaction to parnate which I started on Tuesday. I am in pretty bad shape and am hoping that the oxycontin is not compromising the potential of a successful outcome with parnate. A pdoc in the hospital once told me codeine can render ADs ineffective. And now I'm wondering why he said that, and my pdoc is away (August).
Any thoughts.Shelli
Posted by Cam W. on August 10, 2001, at 17:58:06
In reply to Re: parnate questions » Cam W., posted by Elizabeth on August 10, 2001, at 16:56:10
Elizabeth - Smart Cards will be like a credit card with your entire medical history on it. They swipe it and can tell the who, what, when, wheres and whys of your treatment. They would save a lot of time, but there are people who say it is an infringement on privacy. - Cam
Posted by may_b on August 10, 2001, at 19:32:39
In reply to Re: Smart Cards » Elizabeth, posted by Cam W. on August 10, 2001, at 17:58:06
Cam
I love the idea, in theory. When I was too sick to talk in emerg, it might have given me the credibility that I seemed to lack in the eyes of the attending team. Or at least entertained them while they refused me treatment. [Good thing I am not bitter!] < g >
Falling ill in locations where there was no reader, the bracelet would be better...
It is a good idea nevertheless,
may_b
Posted by Elizabeth on August 11, 2001, at 0:16:20
In reply to Re: parnate questions-CAM, ELIZABETH, posted by shelliR on August 10, 2001, at 17:56:03
> Neither of you answered my questions, above.
Oops! OK, looking back at your earlier post:
> So you think this is a good idea. I think there are definitely two schools of thought on this. I do have a blood pressure monitor at home, but I don't carry it with me. And nifedipine could cause harm if you take it and you are not hypertensive, right? I am in my forties, but am cardiovascularly fit.
You shouldn't take nifedipine unless you have confirmed that your BP is elevated, that's correct. I think that the digital sphygmomanometers that you can get in pharmacies are small enough to carry around (assuming you're like me and have a gigantic purse/handbag that you carry everywhere!).
> I had two non-serious hypertensive crises when combining nardil with adrafinil. Non-serious in the sense that my BP went up to 160 and not any higher. I didn't experience a headache, I experienced a specific tightness in my shoulders. And my pulse went very low- like 45. If your blood pressure shoots up like that, is a reduction of pulse a given? I mean can that be an accurate indication that you are having a hypertensive episode.
It doesn't prove that your BP is elevated, but it does often happen. It's an attempt made by your CV system to compensate for the constriction of blood vessels by reducing cardiac output. (BTW, I'm not sure that a "non-serious" elevation in blood pressure should be referred to as "hypertensive crisis.")
> Maybe I should carry one of those mini ones that hook up to your finger. Are they accurate?
The finger and wrist ones supposedly are less accurate than the arm ones. I have a digital arm BP monitor, and it's always served me well.
> I think I read (don't know if it's true) that parnate is more likely to cause a hypertensive episode than nardil. True, false, don't know?
The dose of tyramine required to raise a person's blood pressure by a particular amount is significantly lower with Parnate than it is with Nardil. The Demerol thing is another matter; I don't know of any evidence that one or the other MAOI carries more risk of interacting with Demerol.
> Is it possible that my use of opiates (oxycontin, pdoc prescribed) for depression can have any negative impact on my reaction to parnate which I started on Tuesday.
I would like to know what is meant by that also. I can envision a possible reason, but the words to explain this possible reason seem to be escaping me.
I hope this helps.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on August 11, 2001, at 0:20:37
In reply to Re: Smart Cards, posted by may_b on August 10, 2001, at 19:32:39
Hmm, well unlike May_b, I'm not so happy about the idea. I'm a person who values privacy a lot. I prefer the type of card I carry -- it's an old-fashioned card (no magnetic strip) that has my medications and doctors' names and phone numbers written on it (it does need to be updated). It doesn't go into details like diagnosis, history, indications and uses for each medication, etc.
-e
Posted by shelliR on August 11, 2001, at 0:51:05
In reply to Re: parnate questions » shelliR, posted by Elizabeth on August 11, 2001, at 0:16:20
> You shouldn't take nifedipine unless you have confirmed that your BP is elevated, that's correct. I think that the digital sphygmomanometers that you can get in pharmacies are small enough to carry around (assuming you're like me and have a gigantic purse/handbag that you carry everywhere!).
>
> > I had two non-serious hypertensive crises when combining nardil with adrafinil. Non-serious in the sense that my BP went up to 160 and not any higher. I didn't experience a headache, I experienced a specific tightness in my shoulders.
>
>. (BTW, I'm not sure that a "non-serious" elevation in blood pressure should be referred to as "hypertensive crisis.")
>
Okay, episodes, whatever. But if my BP is rises quicky from 100 to 160 then that's the time I would take nifedipine, I assume. Because you don't know until you wait how high it will go, just that it is rising much higher than usual. So 160 would be my evaluation point, maybe. I alway come up with so many more questions when my doctors go out of town :-) I don't have nifedipine anyway, but someone is covering for my pdoc who I could check with.> > Maybe I should carry one of those mini ones that hook up to your finger. Are they accurate? >
> The finger and wrist ones supposedly are less accurate than the arm ones. I have a digital arm BP monitor, and it's always served me well.
I have digital arm one also, but I wouldn't want to take it with me to a restaurant, for example. I was thinking of the other because it would easily fit into my purse and it is less obtrustive. I don't have huge purses because what ever size I carry will fill up, anyway.> > I think I read (don't know if it's true) that parnate is more likely to cause a hypertensive episode than nardil. True, false, don't know?
> The dose of tyramine required to raise a person's blood pressure by a particular amount is significantly lower with Parnate than it is with Nardil.
I was spoiled by nardil; it was like MAOI, what's the big deal. I have to start out at least a little more careful with parnate.> > Is it possible that my use of opiates (oxycontin, pdoc prescribed) for depression can have any negative impact on my reaction to parnate which I started on Tuesday.
>
> I would like to know what is meant by that also. I can envision a possible reason, but the words to explain this possible reason seem to be escaping me.Well if the words come to you, please let me know. I could call the pdoc who said that to me next week, but he is so anti-opiates for depression. So I will probably wait to ask my pdoc. But I can't imagine *just* waiting for the parnate to kick in , if it does kick in. It could be weeks and I have been in a lot of depressive pain.
> I hope this helps.
all information helps, thanks.Shelli
Posted by Elizabeth on August 11, 2001, at 13:27:13
In reply to Re: parnate questions » Elizabeth, posted by shelliR on August 11, 2001, at 0:51:05
> ... But if my BP rises quicky from 100 to 160 then that's the time I would take nifedipine, I assume.
I think that 160 systolic was the number my pdoc told me to use.
> Because you don't know until you wait how high it will go, just that it is rising much higher than usual.
Exactly.
> I have digital arm one also, but I wouldn't want to take it with me to a restaurant, for example. I was thinking of the other because it would easily fit into my purse and it is less obtrustive. I don't have huge purses because what ever size I carry will fill up, anyway.
Heh. I carry a handbag that is big enough for me to have lots of useful stuff on me at all times (wallet, mosturising lotion, palm pilot, flashlight, sunglasses, lockpicks, etc. < g >). I carried around the BP monitor for a while when I first started each MAOI. After I'd been taking them for a while I felt comfortable leaving it at home unless I was going out of town. (It was just my luck not to have it when I had an episode while at a memorial service in Connecticut!).
> I was spoiled by nardil; it was like MAOI, what's the big deal. I have to start out at least a little more careful with parnate.
Don't let yourself go overboard, though. Anxiety can make your blood pressure go up too. :-)
> Well if the words come to you, please let me know. I could call the pdoc who said that to me next week, but he is so anti-opiates for depression.
I think it might just mean that the MAOI wouldn't be enough to prevent rebound depression if you stopped the OxyContin abruptly (which is why you shouldn't do that).
> It could be weeks and I have been in a lot of depressive pain.
You know, it's so nice that there's someone else here who "gets it" about how depression is analogous to nocioceptive pain. People give me such a hard time about using buprenorphine, but I really don't think there's any significant difference between using it for depression versus using it for chronic pain from an injury (for example).
-elizabeth
Posted by Michael K on August 12, 2001, at 13:04:00
In reply to Re: parnate questions » Elizabeth, posted by shelliR on August 11, 2001, at 0:51:05
>
> > You shouldn't take nifedipine unless you have confirmed that your BP is elevated, that's correct. I think that the digital sphygmomanometers that you can get in pharmacies are small enough to carry around (assuming you're like me and have a gigantic purse/handbag that you carry everywhere!).
> >
> > > I had two non-serious hypertensive crises when combining nardil with adrafinil. Non-serious in the sense that my BP went up to 160 and not any higher. I didn't experience a headache, I experienced a specific tightness in my shoulders.
> >
> >. (BTW, I'm not sure that a "non-serious" elevation in blood pressure should be referred to as "hypertensive crisis.")
> >
> Okay, episodes, whatever. But if my BP is rises quicky from 100 to 160 then that's the time I would take nifedipine, I assume. Because you don't know until you wait how high it will go, just that it is rising much higher than usual. So 160 would be my evaluation point, maybe. I alway come up with so many more questions when my doctors go out of town :-) I don't have nifedipine anyway, but someone is covering for my pdoc who I could check with.
>
> > > Maybe I should carry one of those mini ones that hook up to your finger. Are they accurate? >
> > The finger and wrist ones supposedly are less accurate than the arm ones. I have a digital arm BP monitor, and it's always served me well.
> I have digital arm one also, but I wouldn't want to take it with me to a restaurant, for example. I was thinking of the other because it would easily fit into my purse and it is less obtrustive. I don't have huge purses because what ever size I carry will fill up, anyway.
>
> > > I think I read (don't know if it's true) that parnate is more likely to cause a hypertensive episode than nardil. True, false, don't know?
> > The dose of tyramine required to raise a person's blood pressure by a particular amount is significantly lower with Parnate than it is with Nardil.
> I was spoiled by nardil; it was like MAOI, what's the big deal. I have to start out at least a little more careful with parnate.
>
> > > Is it possible that my use of opiates (oxycontin, pdoc prescribed) for depression can have any negative impact on my reaction to parnate which I started on Tuesday.
> >
> > I would like to know what is meant by that also. I can envision a possible reason, but the words to explain this possible reason seem to be escaping me.
>
> Well if the words come to you, please let me know. I could call the pdoc who said that to me next week, but he is so anti-opiates for depression. So I will probably wait to ask my pdoc. But I can't imagine *just* waiting for the parnate to kick in , if it does kick in. It could be weeks and I have been in a lot of depressive pain.
>
>
> > I hope this helps.
> all information helps, thanks.
>
> ShelliShelli
Generally speaking, if Parnate is going to work, you should feel some relief within a few days.
Mike
Posted by Zo on August 12, 2001, at 23:37:21
In reply to Re: Suicide-sal » Kristi, posted by Cam W. on August 10, 2001, at 4:48:32
Cam,
While what you say makes a great deal of sense, it does so only within the context you have set out for it. By that I mean, if this is Sal's or anyone's form of service, if service is how they choose to live, how can we possibly say this is wrong. Wrong-headed, misguided. I think what we have here, again, are conflicting paradigms. The rules of the way in which you serve, at least insofar as I know you on this board, make sense. So does a suicidal person having Sal's messenger ID to call upon in a pinch. It is also common-sensical that a listening, caring ear at the right moment can make the difference. And you cannot regulate care! It springs up all around us, it springs from the human heart, it takes whatever form it will. This is the nature of life.
Controls are important -- and so is respect for that which cannot be controlled. Let Sal give his gift, you tend to yours.
Zo
Posted by shelliR on August 13, 2001, at 10:43:38
In reply to Re: Suicide - Sal » Cam W., posted by Zo on August 12, 2001, at 23:37:21
> Cam,
>
> While what you say makes a great deal of sense, it does so only within the context you have set out for it. By that I mean, if this is Sal's or anyone's form of service, if service is how they choose to live, how can we possibly say this is wrong. Wrong-headed, misguided. I think what we have here, again, are conflicting paradigms. The rules of the way in which you serve, at least insofar as I know you on this board, make sense. So does a suicidal person having Sal's messenger ID to call upon in a pinch. It is also common-sensical that a listening, caring ear at the right moment can make the difference. And you cannot regulate care! It springs up all around us, it springs from the human heart, it takes whatever form it will. This is the nature of life.
>
> Controls are important -- and so is respect for that which cannot be controlled. Let Sal give his gift, you tend to yours.
>
> ZoZo,
I think it is fine for Sal for give his "gift" on the board. I still don't have any problems with Sal's citation of studies, in fact I would acknowledge that they could help some people.
I do see a problem having Sal get into direct contact with someone suicidal on the board. If I trusted that Sal would just be there to listen, to offer support, get someone to go to the ER or call their pdoc, I wouldn't have a problem with that. As you said, a listening, caring ear at the right moment... However, because in the past Sal has directly told people what meds they should stay on, or to get immediately off of a drug , I feel safer, also, having Sal's participation be on the board. This approach seems to be Sal's way of caring, and I don't see it as the best way of caring when someone is suicidal.
Once someone is off the board, there are not the usual checks and balances. And yes, I do think Sal's style works better in a place where those checks and balances are in place. On the other hand, if someone takes Sal up on his offer, it *is* out of our control, and I hope he takes that responsibility very seriously. I do think Sal has a good heart, but not always the people skills , so I worry about him in a crisis situation.
Shelli
Posted by Zo on August 14, 2001, at 2:23:48
In reply to Re: Suicide - Sal » Zo, posted by shelliR on August 13, 2001, at 10:43:38
V. helpful post, Shelli. Thanks.
Zo
Posted by Elizabeth on August 15, 2001, at 18:21:26
In reply to Re: parnate questions, posted by Michael K on August 12, 2001, at 13:04:00
> Generally speaking, if Parnate is going to work, you should feel some relief within a few days.
Hi Mike. I don't think this is necessarily true, especially since Shelli is on a subtherapeutic dose of Parnate (10 mg/day).
My experience has been that Parnate works faster than it's "supposed" to, but I have known people for whom it took a month or more.
-elizabeth
Posted by Michael K on August 15, 2001, at 22:01:48
In reply to Re: parnate questions » Michael K, posted by Elizabeth on August 15, 2001, at 18:21:26
> > Generally speaking, if Parnate is going to work, you should feel some relief within a few days.
>
> Hi Mike. I don't think this is necessarily true, especially since Shelli is on a subtherapeutic dose of Parnate (10 mg/day).
>
> My experience has been that Parnate works faster than it's "supposed" to, but I have known people for whom it took a month or more.
>
> -elizabethElizabeth,
It was probably a mistake to generalize. The first doctor who prescribed Parnate for me told me that. Sure enough, although I was suffering from one of the worst depressions of my life, the first 10mg gave me some relief. The relief was almost immediate, like a stimulant. I was still deeply depressed, but I had the strength to hang around for the next 10 mg. It did take about 2 weeks with an eventual dosage of 40 mg to work completely. I may have just been lucky to experience that first "kick."Mike
Posted by shelliR on August 15, 2001, at 23:22:29
In reply to Re: parnate questions » Elizabeth, posted by Michael K on August 15, 2001, at 22:01:48
> > > Generally speaking, if Parnate is going to work, you should feel some relief within a few days.
> >
> > Hi Mike. I don't think this is necessarily true, especially since Shelli is on a subtherapeutic dose of Parnate (10 mg/day).
> >
> > My experience has been that Parnate works faster than it's "supposed" to, but I have known people for whom it took a month or more.
> >
> > -elizabeth
>
> Elizabeth,
> It was probably a mistake to generalize. The first doctor who prescribed Parnate for me told me that. Sure enough, although I was suffering from one of the worst depressions of my life, the first 10mg gave me some relief. The relief was almost immediate, like a stimulant. I was still deeply depressed, but I had the strength to hang around for the next 10 mg. It did take about 2 weeks with an eventual dosage of 40 mg to work completely. I may have just been lucky to experience that first "kick."
>
> MikeHi Mike. I think your experience is quite common for folks who do succeed on Parnate. Several people mentioned that they had an immediate stimulent effect. If I had felt any "kick" I might have hung in for longer, but it's too hard going through both fatigue and nausea, and feeling that it will probably not succeed.
Shelli
Posted by manowar on December 8, 2001, at 17:06:41
In reply to VNS Operation vs drugs vs ECT vs MCS, posted by susan C on August 8, 2001, at 16:03:14
The post below sounds very interesting. I'm surprised that nobody followed up on this. Is there anyone including Elizabeth or Cam that has looked into microcurrent stimulation (MCS)? Susan C. said she did well with it. I found out that it is FDA approved and that insurance will sometimes pay for the device. The Alpha Stim 100 is $800. I also read somewhere that you can build an electrical stimulation unit of your own for about $15.
http://www.dtaresources.com/alpha_stim_100.asp
BTW- Is that Cela Ward?
Susan C. posted this---
> If we are looking at ECT, VNS, drugs and combinations there of, look also at Alpha Stim 100. It is microcurrent stimulation (MCS), similar, but different from a TENS unit, which used for chronic pain, has had studies done for depression and in the process of getting approved for use. I used it successfully for a year or so when I was very depressed and nothing worked. I was ready to try anything, and, unlike VNS, which requires an operation to install unit and wrap nerve and later to replace battery, Alpha Stim 100 just clips to your ears. Just thought I'd mention it.
Posted by susan C on December 10, 2001, at 17:33:46
In reply to Microcurrent stimulation?, posted by manowar on December 8, 2001, at 17:06:41
hello, M--
I have generally found people suspicious of mechanical (or electro, or electronic) solutions. I don't know why...there appears to be plenty of research and support for physical exercise as a 'treatment'and ECT...
Perhaps this attitude has something to do with the 'one time' cost rather than the per pill cost, or the general idea of mechanical rather than chemical effect on the brain?
Perhaps too, it is like ECT, tho I have never seen anything comparing the two.
When I got one, the insurance coverage was for it as a chronic pain relief, TENS type unit, though the current is a different form than the usual TENS unit.
Who knows? It certainly was cost effective for me during the time it worked.
susan C
mouse with out a battery
Posted by manowar on December 11, 2001, at 10:30:26
In reply to Re: Microcurrent stimulation? » manowar, posted by susan C on December 10, 2001, at 17:33:46
> hello, M--
>
> I have generally found people suspicious of mechanical (or electro, or electronic) solutions. I don't know why...there appears to be plenty of research and support for physical exercise as a 'treatment'and ECT...
>
> Perhaps this attitude has something to do with the 'one time' cost rather than the per pill cost, or the general idea of mechanical rather than chemical effect on the brain?
>
> Perhaps too, it is like ECT, tho I have never seen anything comparing the two.
>
> When I got one, the insurance coverage was for it as a chronic pain relief, TENS type unit, though the current is a different form than the usual TENS unit.
>
> Who knows? It certainly was cost effective for me during the time it worked.
>
> susan C
> mouse with out a batteryHi Susan,
I talked with a lady in Seattle yesterday that sells the unit. You're right about the skepticism. Her story is that there is a good reason that you never hear about Microcurrent Stimulation. It's the almighty dollar. She was saying that the psychiatric industry has no use for such a device, even if it was effective, because a patient would only have to pay the up-front expense of the unit. Lets face it: modern psychiatry is a racket. The whole industry feeds itself.First off, I depend on a pdoc that cost me an average of $100 a visit twice a month. Then I rely on the medication he provides which is an average of $150 a month. That by itself is $4200 a year! That doesn't even count my insurance that is about $100 a week.
I mean its like being on welfare. Instead of waiting for our welfare check once a month, I have to wait on my pdoc appointments so that I can hopefully get the right meds so that maybe I can function.
Think about all the people involved in this racket:
Pharmacists
drug reps
doctors
illegal drug trade (if you choose to self medicate)
drug companies (incl. stockholders)I'm not mad at the system; I'm just trying to point out all the reasons why a technology like microcurrent stimulation doesn't get a whole lot of press.
She also told me that the big drug companies have the money to sponsor clinical testing, while their company can't do much because its so expensive.
No doubt –I am skeptical, but at this point I'm ready to do about anything, and this seems like it may be a great option. She is going to send me some literature on the unit, as well as the papers on the clinical data they have.
Susan,
Could you tell me about your experience with the Alpha Stim? You said that it helped you with your depression-how much? Did it stop working? Do you still use it?
Thanks much for your help,
--Tim
Posted by manowar on December 11, 2001, at 17:43:35
In reply to Re: Microcurrent stimulation? » susan C, posted by manowar on December 11, 2001, at 10:30:26
Hello everyone,
I'm surprised that nobody except for Susan has anything to say about this. I've read tons of literature on Microcurrent Stimulation, and it seems like a very good technology. Here's a link to some of the studies that I looked at:
http://www.painsolutions.com/ati14/depres.htm
Quite frankly, I'm pretty impressed. There are some double blind studies mixed in with some case studies.I think I might buy myself one for Christmas. If the damn thing works, it'll be the best Christmas present that I ever got. Even if it’s only partially effective, I think for the price, it would be well worth it.
This is the one study that impressed me the most. It measured subject’s catechalomine concentration in their urine before and after treatment. ---
>Briones, David F. and Rosenthal, Saul H. Changes in urinary free catecholamine and 17ketosteroids with cerebral electrotherapy (electrosleep). Diseases of the Nervous System. 34:57-58, 1973.
>Device: 100 Hz, 1 mS, positive pulses, cathodes over orbits, anodes over mastoids
>7 male pts from 22 to 37 years old were given 30 min. of CES for 5 days. 4 were "normal" volunteers and 3 were hospitalized psychiatric pts with neurotic anxiety and depression. 1 alcoholic was dropped because his pre-treatment reading was far outside the range of normal of the other pts. Total free catecholamines were measured by bio-rad column (normal is 0 - 115 microgram per 24 hours) prior to and after 5 CES treatments. Pre and Posttesting means revealed a 23.9 to 47.4 microgram increase in 24 hour urinary free catecholamine across all patients, with the greatest rise in 2 anxiety pts and 1 volunteer who was slightly symptomatic. The average gain in 24 hour urinary 17 ketosteroids was 6.9 mgs, pretreatment mean was 18.5 and post treatment was 25.4 (normal is 10 to 24 mgs per 24 hours). 2 pts had insignificantly reduced levels. The authors suggested that these findings probably reflected change at the hypothalamic or pituitary level in the brain. No side effects were reported.
The lady I talked with yesterday told me that the VA in Seattle uses the devices for all kinds of problems. The side effect profile is the most benign side effect profile that I've ever seen. I would have to get a prescription from my pdoc to get one, but that shouldn't be a problem. Outside the U.S., you can buy one off the shelf.Anyway, if anyone out there has an informed opinion, please throw in your two cents.
Thanks,
Tim
Posted by susan C on December 11, 2001, at 18:35:07
In reply to Re: Microcurrent stimulation?, posted by manowar on December 11, 2001, at 17:43:35
Posted by LyndaK on December 13, 2001, at 2:08:50
In reply to Re: Microcurrent stimulation?, posted by manowar on December 11, 2001, at 17:43:35
> Hello everyone,
> I'm surprised that nobody except for Susan has anything to say about this. I've read tons of literature on Microcurrent Stimulation, and it seems like a very good technology. Here's a link to some of the studies that I looked at:
> http://www.painsolutions.com/ati14/depres.htm
> Quite frankly, I'm pretty impressed. There are some double blind studies mixed in with some case studies.
>
> I think I might buy myself one for Christmas. If the damn thing works, it'll be the best Christmas present that I ever got. Even if it’s only partially effective, I think for the price, it would be well worth it.
>
> This is the one study that impressed me the most. It measured subject’s catechalomine concentration in their urine before and after treatment. ---
>
> >Briones, David F. and Rosenthal, Saul H. Changes in urinary free catecholamine and 17ketosteroids with cerebral electrotherapy (electrosleep). Diseases of the Nervous System. 34:57-58, 1973.
>
> >Device: 100 Hz, 1 mS, positive pulses, cathodes over orbits, anodes over mastoids
>
> >7 male pts from 22 to 37 years old were given 30 min. of CES for 5 days. 4 were "normal" volunteers and 3 were hospitalized psychiatric pts with neurotic anxiety and depression. 1 alcoholic was dropped because his pre-treatment reading was far outside the range of normal of the other pts. Total free catecholamines were measured by bio-rad column (normal is 0 - 115 microgram per 24 hours) prior to and after 5 CES treatments. Pre and Posttesting means revealed a 23.9 to 47.4 microgram increase in 24 hour urinary free catecholamine across all patients, with the greatest rise in 2 anxiety pts and 1 volunteer who was slightly symptomatic. The average gain in 24 hour urinary 17 ketosteroids was 6.9 mgs, pretreatment mean was 18.5 and post treatment was 25.4 (normal is 10 to 24 mgs per 24 hours). 2 pts had insignificantly reduced levels. The authors suggested that these findings probably reflected change at the hypothalamic or pituitary level in the brain. No side effects were reported.
>
>
> The lady I talked with yesterday told me that the VA in Seattle uses the devices for all kinds of problems. The side effect profile is the most benign side effect profile that I've ever seen. I would have to get a prescription from my pdoc to get one, but that shouldn't be a problem. Outside the U.S., you can buy one off the shelf.
>
> Anyway, if anyone out there has an informed opinion, please throw in your two cents.
> Thanks,
> TimTim,
I agree it's intriguing. I've never heard of it before.
Two comments:
1. The lady who was giving you information about the unit and telling you "why the psychiatric community doesn't want you to know about it" is SELLING the unit. Not exactly an unbiased opinion.
2. I didn't look up the web address for the other research articles, but the one that you quote applied the electrodes differently than the unit that clips to your earlobes. It seemed like a significant difference to me.
Not an expert . . . just playing Devil's advocate.
Lynda
Posted by Cecilia on December 19, 2001, at 2:16:13
In reply to Re: Microcurrent stimulation? Talk on Open? (nm) » manowar, posted by susan C on December 11, 2001, at 18:35:07
Does anyone know if there`s any place that rents these AlphaStim devices so you can try before you buy?
Posted by susan C on December 19, 2001, at 13:44:40
In reply to Re: Microcurrent stimulation? , posted by Cecilia on December 19, 2001, at 2:16:13
> Does anyone know if there`s any place that rents these AlphaStim devices so you can try before you buy?
that is what happened when i first used mine...Prescribed for chronic pain, insurance coverage of 80% rented for first month, then if effective, 100% maintenance coverage for purchase. Your Insurance Coverage May Vary YICMV 8:o) www.painsolutions.com Ask for Nancy Campbell. She was very helpful to me in making arrangements.
mouse being shy
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