![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 16 to 40 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by SalArmy4me on July 19, 2001, at 14:12:33
In reply to Re: Perfect Drug for Everyone? » Cecilia, posted by Elizabeth on July 19, 2001, at 10:58:51
> Hi...have you found any of those drugs at least somewhat helpful (though not perfect)? If so, what were the disadvantages of the ones that helped you?
>
> -elizabethI'd like to know that too. Is doxepin any good?
Posted by JohnL on July 19, 2001, at 15:47:04
In reply to Re: Perfect Drug for Everyone?, posted by Cecilia on July 19, 2001, at 4:26:09
I'm curious as to why you believe this. I don't necessarily disagree, but I'm not sure why it should be taken for granted as being true...
>
> Maybe someday, with research based on the human genome, there will be a perfect drug for everyone, but there sure isn`t now. At least I haven`t found one and I`ve tried the following: Desipramine, Trazodone, Doxepin, Prozac, Nardil, Zoloft, Paxil, Wellbutin, Effexor, Imipramine, Amitriptyline, Serzone, Buspar, Atenolol, Anafranil, St. John`s Wort, Remeron, thyroid supplement, lithium, Nortriptyline, Celexa, Neurontin, SAM-e, Ritalin, Dexedrine, Zyprexa, Parnate, Xanax, Clonazepam, Amisulpride, Reboxetine, Luvox, and Adrafinil.I'm sorry folks, I didn't mean to stir things up. I believe there is a great drug for everyone because I have seen it happen over and over, that's all, both here and at my pdoc's office. Granted, at this board we have especially tough cases, so a perfect drug seems like a pipedream. And sometimes it takes years to find that drug. Perhaps my choice of the word 'perfect' was a bit much, and I apologize for that.
In my own opinion the most critical thing to give anyone who is suffering is hope. Without hope, there is nothing. I lost count a long time ago of the desperate cases that eventually found their perfect, well, great, drug. And as I read the long list of drugs that we have all tried, the best ones are continually absent from those lists. All too often we spend years trying one antidepressant or mood stabilizer after another and accidentally ignore the wonderful drugs available in other psychiatric categories.
Anyway, again, I am sorry for stirring things up. Didn't mean to do that. I meant to give hope, based on real life experiences I have witnessed.
John
Posted by MB on July 19, 2001, at 18:02:26
In reply to Re: Perfect Drug for Everyone?, posted by JohnL on July 19, 2001, at 15:47:04
> I'm curious as to why you believe this. I don't necessarily disagree, but I'm not sure why it should be taken for granted as being true...
> >
> > Maybe someday, with research based on the human genome, there will be a perfect drug for everyone, but there sure isn`t now. At least I haven`t found one and I`ve tried the following: Desipramine, Trazodone, Doxepin, Prozac, Nardil, Zoloft, Paxil, Wellbutin, Effexor, Imipramine, Amitriptyline, Serzone, Buspar, Atenolol, Anafranil, St. John`s Wort, Remeron, thyroid supplement, lithium, Nortriptyline, Celexa, Neurontin, SAM-e, Ritalin, Dexedrine, Zyprexa, Parnate, Xanax, Clonazepam, Amisulpride, Reboxetine, Luvox, and Adrafinil.
>
> I'm sorry folks, I didn't mean to stir things up. I believe there is a great drug for everyone because I have seen it happen over and over, that's all, both here and at my pdoc's office. Granted, at this board we have especially tough cases, so a perfect drug seems like a pipedream. And sometimes it takes years to find that drug. Perhaps my choice of the word 'perfect' was a bit much, and I apologize for that.
Hey man, don't apologise on my account. I wasn't trying to imply that you were wrong for your belief, I just wanted to discuss it :-) I used to say the same thing about there being a perfect drug out there waiting for me...and then I thought, "what if it's *not* out there, what if it hasn't been developed yet..." So I decided that maybe there *is* a "cure" out there, maybe not (for me, I mean).
> In my own opinion the most critical thing to give anyone who is suffering is hope. Without hope, there is nothing. I lost count a long time ago of the desperate cases that eventually found their perfect, well, great, drug. And as I read the long list of drugs that we have all tried, the best ones are continually absent from those lists. All too often we spend years trying one antidepressant or mood stabilizer after another and accidentally ignore the wonderful drugs available in other psychiatric categories.
>
> Anyway, again, I am sorry for stirring things up. Didn't mean to do that. I meant to give hope, based on real life experiences I have witnessed.
> John
John, I think your optomism is refreshing. Again, please don't apologize on my account. I am a chronic pessimist; that's part of my, well, "neurosis" if you want to call it that. I could probably use any hope you throw my way. Thanks. Peace
Posted by Elizabeth on July 19, 2001, at 22:37:42
In reply to Re: Perfect Drug for Everyone?, posted by SalArmy4me on July 19, 2001, at 14:12:33
> I'd like to know that too. Is doxepin any good?
I tried it once (for insomnia, not depression). It's *very* sedating. Its middle ring is kind of interesting because it has an oxygen in it (IIRC). But it's pretty much Just Another Tricyclic.
-elizabeth
Posted by Cecilia on July 20, 2001, at 3:39:17
In reply to Re: Perfect Drug for Everyone?, posted by JohnL on July 19, 2001, at 15:47:04
> I'm curious as to why you believe this. I don't necessarily disagree, but I'm not sure why it should be taken for granted as being true...
> >
> > Maybe someday, with research based on the human genome, there will be a perfect drug for everyone, but there sure isn`t now. At least I haven`t found one and I`ve tried the following: Desipramine, Trazodone, Doxepin, Prozac, Nardil, Zoloft, Paxil, Wellbutin, Effexor, Imipramine, Amitriptyline, Serzone, Buspar, Atenolol, Anafranil, St. John`s Wort, Remeron, thyroid supplement, lithium, Nortriptyline, Celexa, Neurontin, SAM-e, Ritalin, Dexedrine, Zyprexa, Parnate, Xanax, Clonazepam, Amisulpride, Reboxetine, Luvox, and Adrafinil.
>
> I'm sorry folks, I didn't mean to stir things up. I believe there is a great drug for everyone because I have seen it happen over and over, that's all, both here and at my pdoc's office. Granted, at this board we have especially tough cases, so a perfect drug seems like a pipedream. And sometimes it takes years to find that drug. Perhaps my choice of the word 'perfect' was a bit much, and I apologize for that.
>
> In my own opinion the most critical thing to give anyone who is suffering is hope. Without hope, there is nothing. I lost count a long time ago of the desperate cases that eventually found their perfect, well, great, drug. And as I read the long list of drugs that we have all tried, the best ones are continually absent from those lists. All too often we spend years trying one antidepressant or mood stabilizer after another and accidentally ignore the wonderful drugs available in other psychiatric categories.
>
> Anyway, again, I am sorry for stirring things up. Didn't mean to do that. I meant to give hope, based on real life experiences I have witnessed.
> JohnSorry if I sounded critical, John. Hope IS incredibly important. It`s just so frustrating-it took me a long time to get brave enough to try overseas meds, but I finally ordered Amisulpride and Adrafinil because of your frequent praise of them and was disappointed when hope was again shot down-just 2 more meds with unpleasant side effects and no benefit.
Posted by Cecilia on July 20, 2001, at 4:39:17
In reply to Re: Perfect Drug for Everyone? » Cecilia, posted by Elizabeth on July 19, 2001, at 10:58:51
> > Maybe someday, with research based on the human genome, there will be a perfect drug for everyone, but there sure isn`t now. At least I haven`t found one and I`ve tried the following: Desipramine, Trazodone, Doxepin, Prozac, Nardil, Zoloft, Paxil, Wellbutin, Effexor, Imipramine, Amitriptyline, Serzone, Buspar, Atenolol, Anafranil, St. John`s Wort, Remeron, thyroid supplement, lithium, Nortriptyline, Celexa, Neurontin, SAM-e, Ritalin, Dexedrine, Zyprexa, Parnate, Xanax, Clonazepam, Amisulpride, Reboxetine, Luvox, and Adrafinil.
>
> Hi...have you found any of those drugs at least somewhat helpful (though not perfect)? If so, what were the disadvantages of the ones that helped you?
>
> -elizabethRight now I`m taking 300 mg/day of Trazodone, 20 mg/day of Celexa, 1 mg/day of clonazepam and 100 mg/day of Atenolol(prescribed for blood pressure but maybe helps a little with anxiety). Also temazepam or Ambien "prn" for sleep (trazodone doesn`t make me sleepy at all). I really don`t know if anything (except the sleeping pills) really does anyhing or not. Until a year ago I wasn`t on anything regularly except the Atenolol, I just kept trying each new med and giving it up because it didn`t help, or because the side effects were too bad for an adequate trial-the case with most of the tricyclics. Then my doctor told me there wasn`t anything left to try except ECT, which put me into the worst panicky depression of my life and I`ve probably been depressed since childhood-also anxious- I think I was born anxious. For 3 monts I felt like I was trapped beside a steep cliff with a wild fire roaring beside me-which was I more afraid of? ECT (and people at work finding out about it) or suicide. I got my doctor to prescribe Xanax(later changed to clonazepam) which was the 1st psychiatric drug(other than sleeping pills) that I ever felt had done anything for me at all. Then I decided to add Trazodone which I`d tried ten years ago but only at a low dose, ( because the doctor who prescribed it at the time was such a jerk that I wasn`t willing to go back to have the prescription increased). With the trazodone I gradually got over that horrible panic, but I really don`t know if it WAS the trazodone or simply giving up the ECT idea. Later, I added Celexa, which I`d previously tried by itself, with buspar, with wellbutrin,and
with Neurontin, without ever feeeling it was doing anything, but I did feel more anxious when I went off it so I decided maybe it WAS doing something. So, I`m back to my baseline chronic depression but now on several drugs which I`m afraid to go off of in case they ARE helping.
Posted by Sherry on July 20, 2001, at 8:28:36
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine (Remeron) » JohnL, posted by Elizabeth on July 19, 2001, at 10:57:16
Hi Elizabeth,
I had the exact same experience with Parnate,(poop out within 6 months and a worsened imbalance). I'm getting ready to try Nardil after 2 years of not taking anything becuase of the fear of making things worse as with Parnate. I would love to hear of your experience with Nardil, and in what ways it made things worse for you.
When Parnate pooped out for me,(BTW, it's the only thing that's ever even worked partially for me.) it took a toll on my cognitive abilities worse than anything. Since I have so little of my intelligence left( I used to consider myself slightly above average in certain aspects of my intelligence) and a short term memory that is horrible, I'm reluctant to try anything else.
I feel like Parnate messed up my carbohydrate metabolism because I feel differently after every meal. I also feel differently depending on the level of carbos in my diet. Within 2.5 hours of eating, I can actually feel insulin levels go down because I lose the ability to thing clearly. For example, it's difficult to think about how to solve a math problem. I have difficulty finding words, etc., etc. On the other hand, after eating meals, I have difficulty concentrating. I can think clearly as long as I keep a fairly high level of carbs in my diet. I have Parnate to thank for this.
Anyway, if you would share your experience with me I would really apreciate it.
Sherry
> > This is exactly why I do not subscribe to the popular practice of "giving it more time". In my experience, if there isn't some kind of hint of a good reaction in the first week or two, at least a hint, then I am quite willing to trash it and move on.
>
> I generally like that technique, at least for most drugs (more on that in a minute). One thing I'd add is that for antidepressants in general, you should give them two weeks at a dose that could reasonably be expected to work.
>
> > There is a perfect drug for everyone, but we'll never find it if we're forced to stay with something that isn't working out, or stay with something hoping it will work a month or two later.
>
> This theory (that there's a "perfect drug for everyone") I don't buy so much!
>
> > When a medicine is right, you'll know it without a doubt in a short amount of time.
>
> This technique does produce false positives at times, though perhaps not false negatives so much. (I'm thinking of when I started taking Nardil and it seemed to work miracles but stopped working after less than a year and made things *worse* in the long run.)
>
> I think that Buspar, for example (the subject of a couple of current threads), is a drug that takes longer to work even than most other antidepressants, and for which the recommended therapeutic dose range is too low. It has a reputation for being ineffective, but I wonder if that might not change if people started taking higher doses and giving it a longer time to work. That's an exceptional case, though; most of the time, I think you're right that
>
> One other exception I can think of is Effexor. I say this because it has such a wide range of possibly effective doses; some people will notice improvement after 2 weeks on 75 mg, but others need 400 mg.
>
> I'll be interested to find out whether the "JohnL Method" proves successful in my current trial (desipramine, which I've been taking for about 2 1/2 weeks -- though only about 7-10 days within the normal therapeutic dose range -- and which seems to be doing something already). Having tried so many exotic things, I would find it terribly ironic if the "right drug" for me proved to be a tricyclic!
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by Sherry on July 20, 2001, at 8:36:07
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine (Remeron), posted by Sherry on July 20, 2001, at 8:28:36
Hi All,
I'm sorry, but as you have all discovered by now the previous post was for Elizabeth and any one else who has had a similar experience with an antidepressant.Sherry
> Hi Elizabeth,
>
> I had the exact same experience with Parnate,(poop out within 6 months and a worsened imbalance). I'm getting ready to try Nardil after 2 years of not taking anything becuase of the fear of making things worse as with Parnate. I would love to hear of your experience with Nardil, and in what ways it made things worse for you.
>
> When Parnate pooped out for me,(BTW, it's the only thing that's ever even worked partially for me.) it took a toll on my cognitive abilities worse than anything. Since I have so little of my intelligence left( I used to consider myself slightly above average in certain aspects of my intelligence) and a short term memory that is horrible, I'm reluctant to try anything else.
>
> I feel like Parnate messed up my carbohydrate metabolism because I feel differently after every meal. I also feel differently depending on the level of carbos in my diet. Within 2.5 hours of eating, I can actually feel insulin levels go down because I lose the ability to thing clearly. For example, it's difficult to think about how to solve a math problem. I have difficulty finding words, etc., etc. On the other hand, after eating meals, I have difficulty concentrating. I can think clearly as long as I keep a fairly high level of carbs in my diet. I have Parnate to thank for this.
>
> Anyway, if you would share your experience with me I would really apreciate it.
>
> Sherry
>
>
>
> > > This is exactly why I do not subscribe to the popular practice of "giving it more time". In my experience, if there isn't some kind of hint of a good reaction in the first week or two, at least a hint, then I am quite willing to trash it and move on.
> >
> > I generally like that technique, at least for most drugs (more on that in a minute). One thing I'd add is that for antidepressants in general, you should give them two weeks at a dose that could reasonably be expected to work.
> >
> > > There is a perfect drug for everyone, but we'll never find it if we're forced to stay with something that isn't working out, or stay with something hoping it will work a month or two later.
> >
> > This theory (that there's a "perfect drug for everyone") I don't buy so much!
> >
> > > When a medicine is right, you'll know it without a doubt in a short amount of time.
> >
> > This technique does produce false positives at times, though perhaps not false negatives so much. (I'm thinking of when I started taking Nardil and it seemed to work miracles but stopped working after less than a year and made things *worse* in the long run.)
> >
> > I think that Buspar, for example (the subject of a couple of current threads), is a drug that takes longer to work even than most other antidepressants, and for which the recommended therapeutic dose range is too low. It has a reputation for being ineffective, but I wonder if that might not change if people started taking higher doses and giving it a longer time to work. That's an exceptional case, though; most of the time, I think you're right that
> >
> > One other exception I can think of is Effexor. I say this because it has such a wide range of possibly effective doses; some people will notice improvement after 2 weeks on 75 mg, but others need 400 mg.
> >
> > I'll be interested to find out whether the "JohnL Method" proves successful in my current trial (desipramine, which I've been taking for about 2 1/2 weeks -- though only about 7-10 days within the normal therapeutic dose range -- and which seems to be doing something already). Having tried so many exotic things, I would find it terribly ironic if the "right drug" for me proved to be a tricyclic!
> >
> > -elizabeth
Posted by Lorraine on July 20, 2001, at 9:53:26
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine (Remeron), posted by Sherry on July 20, 2001, at 8:28:36
> > > I feel like Parnate messed up my carbohydrate metabolism because I feel differently after every meal. I also feel differently depending on the level of carbos in my diet. Within 2.5 hours of eating, I can actually feel insulin levels go down because I lose the ability to thing clearly. For example, it's difficult to think about how to solve a math problem. I have difficulty finding words, etc., etc. On the other hand, after eating meals, I have difficulty concentrating. I can think clearly as long as I keep a fairly high level of carbs in my diet. I have Parnate to thank for this.
Sherry:Just jumping in with my 2c. The type of sugar swings you are talking about look to me like they would respond to a low carb approach. This gets you off the carb cycle stuff--feeling spacey after eating etc. What you would want to do is to try to keep your blood sugar fairly constant by eating the same amount of carbs per meal. I am low carb and I would guess I eat between 10-20 gms of carbs a meal (I am not dieting.) My FIL is diabetic and they recently put him on a steady state mod. carb diet--he is to eat 60 carbs per meal no more, no less. Anyway, might be worth a try...
Posted by Elizabeth on July 20, 2001, at 13:47:36
In reply to Re: Perfect Drug for Everyone?-Elizabeth, posted by Cecilia on July 20, 2001, at 4:39:17
> Right now I`m taking 300 mg/day of Trazodone, 20 mg/day of Celexa, 1 mg/day of clonazepam and 100 mg/day of Atenolol(prescribed for blood pressure but maybe helps a little with anxiety).
Interesting mix. One doesn't see trazodone used as an AD that often anymore.
Atenolol can help with jittery feelings, palpitations, etc., but it's not so good for the ruminative, "can't-stop-thinking" sort of anxiety.
> Also temazepam or Ambien "prn" for sleep (trazodone doesn`t make me sleepy at all).
I can't imagine trazodone being a good long-term sleeping pill. When I tried to use it that way, I just kept developing tolerance and having to increase the dose.
> I really don`t know if anything (except the sleeping pills) really does anyhing or not.
Uh-oh!
> Until a year ago I wasn`t on anything regularly except the Atenolol, I just kept trying each new med and giving it up because it didn`t help, or because the side effects were too bad for an adequate trial-the case with most of the tricyclics.
That was my problem with the tricyclics too. But desipramine seems to be doing me some good without any significant side effects. For various reasons, I'd been down on the tricyclics and I didn't really expect desipramine to work, so this comes as a pleasant surprise. Did you manage to stick it out with desipramine?
> Then my doctor told me there wasn`t anything left to try except ECT, which put me into the worst panicky depression of my life and I`ve probably been depressed since childhood-also anxious- I think I was born anxious.
Me too. :-( I didn't have phobias or anything, but I was always very nervous and had (still have) very bad performance anxiety.
Can you say more about your depression and anxiety? Like, what sort of symptoms do you have, and have any of your symptoms been alleviated or worsened by any of the drugs on your list?
I don't think there's *ever* a point where you've tried so many medications that ECT is the only thing left. There are always weird, off-label things you can use. It's not surprising to see that you haven't tried an opioid, but given the large number of things that haven't worked for you, though, it might be worthwhile to look into the possibility, if you think there's a chance that your doctor would be willing. (I'd recommend doing some research before bringing it up, though.)
> ECT (and people at work finding out about it) or suicide.
Suicide isn't scary, but whenever I think about it I feel guilty. You know?
> I got my doctor to prescribe Xanax(later changed to clonazepam) which was the 1st psychiatric drug(other than sleeping pills) that I ever felt had done anything for me at all.
Some depressed people respond to Xanax, especially in high doses, and it's a great anxiolytic. In a situation like yours, where the depression might be secondary to anxiety, a benzodiazepine would seem like a logical thing to try. Do you find Klonopin equally helpful?
> Then I decided to add Trazodone which I`d tried ten years ago but only at a low dose, ( because the doctor who prescribed it at the time was such a jerk that I wasn`t willing to go back to have the prescription increased).
*ouch* :-)
> With the trazodone I gradually got over that horrible panic, but I really don`t know if it WAS the trazodone or simply giving up the ECT idea.
Probably a little of both, I'd think.
> Later, I added Celexa, which I`d previously tried by itself, with buspar, with wellbutrin,and
> with Neurontin, without ever feeeling it was doing anything, but I did feel more anxious when I went off it so I decided maybe it WAS doing something.SSRIs can be subtle (to put it mildly). How does Celexa compare to the other ones, since you've tried *all* of them? (I only ever tried Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil.)
> So, I`m back to my baseline chronic depression but now on several drugs which I`m afraid to go off of in case they ARE helping.
Oh dear. Looking over your list, I see that Nardil is on it. Did that do anything for you? IMO, it's the best AD for anxiety, although it does have some annoying side effects. And what about Neurontin? I tried it briefly once, and it reminded me of Xanax. I got scared and stopped taking it because it was giving me the munchies, though. (I gained 50 lbs on Nardil and only was able to lose the weight because I was so depressed when I stopped taking it; I'm not interested in going through that again!) I also notice that you've tried stimulants. What happened with those?
Also, 1 mg/day of clonazepam really isn't all that much. You could probably increase it safely if your doctor says it's okay to.
Maybe there isn't a perfect drug for you, but I bet that there's a combination that will make things better.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on July 20, 2001, at 14:06:20
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine (Remeron), posted by Sherry on July 20, 2001, at 8:28:36
> I had the exact same experience with Parnate,(poop out within 6 months and a worsened imbalance).
I think that might be very common. It's mentioned in _Listening to Prozac_, I think.
> I'm getting ready to try Nardil after 2 years of not taking anything becuase of the fear of making things worse as with Parnate. I would love to hear of your experience with Nardil, and in what ways it made things worse for you.
When it stopped working, I started getting agitated and moody and thinking about suicide constantly. It was different from when I'd been simply depressed. My pdoc thought it might be a dysphoric hypomania, so we tried adding Depakote to the Nardil, but that didn't help. Raising the dose of Nardil didn't help either. In fact, nothing helped except going off the Nardil. I started taking it again a couple months later, but the exact same thing happened. I decided Nardil wasn't right for me and crossed it off of my list, but that time when I'd been doing so badly on it really took a toll. It was more than a year of intense ups and downs, from fall '96 (when I first started taking Nardil) through winter '97 (when I stopped taking it the second time around). I think that the second time I took it, the AD effect went away sooner than it had the first time. It took a while after I stopped taking it for the agitation to go away, and I really didn't recover until sometime in mid-1998.
Parnate didn't poop out, and it's probably the AD that I've had the most success with to date. So it's possible that the poop-out thing will happen with one MAOI but not another. I'm not sure whether the likelihood is greater with Nardil or with Parnate; I think it would be worthwhile for you to try Nardil, but very cautiously, watching for any signs of the type of problems you had with Parnate.
> When Parnate pooped out for me,(BTW, it's the only thing that's ever even worked partially for me.) it took a toll on my cognitive abilities worse than anything. Since I have so little of my intelligence left( I used to consider myself slightly above average in certain aspects of my intelligence) and a short term memory that is horrible, I'm reluctant to try anything else.
You're probably more intelligent than you think, FWIW. Most depressed people I've known have been very down on themselves.
> I feel like Parnate messed up my carbohydrate metabolism because I feel differently after every meal.
Huh. Nardil has some sort of weird effect on carb metabolism, but I don't think Parnate does.
> Within 2.5 hours of eating, I can actually feel insulin levels go down because I lose the ability to thing clearly.
I sometimes "crash" after a high-carb meal, but not often. I think Nardil made it worse. You might want to talk to your GP about this.
> For example, it's difficult to think about how to solve a math problem. I have difficulty finding words, etc., etc. On the other hand, after eating meals, I have difficulty concentrating.
Have you had any sort of neuropsych testing that would give you a more specific idea of what sort of deficits you have (or show that there is no specific deficit)? That might be worthwhile. I don't know.
-elizabeth
Posted by Sherry on July 20, 2001, at 20:16:06
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine (Remeron), posted by Lorraine on July 20, 2001, at 9:53:26
Hey Lorraine,
Thanks, I will definitely give the low carb diet a whirl. Sounds plauible to me. Someone else mentioned this to me on a different board. I have nothing to lose except some extra weight maybe.
Hmmm, 10 to 20g at each meal. That doesn't sound like a lot.
Thanks again,
Sherry
> > > > I feel like Parnate messed up my carbohydrate metabolism because I feel differently after every meal. I also feel differently depending on the level of carbos in my diet. Within 2.5 hours of eating, I can actually feel insulin levels go down because I lose the ability to thing clearly. For example, it's difficult to think about how to solve a math problem. I have difficulty finding words, etc., etc. On the other hand, after eating meals, I have difficulty concentrating. I can think clearly as long as I keep a fairly high level of carbs in my diet. I have Parnate to thank for this.
>
>
> Sherry:
>
> Just jumping in with my 2c. The type of sugar swings you are talking about look to me like they would respond to a low carb approach. This gets you off the carb cycle stuff--feeling spacey after eating etc. What you would want to do is to try to keep your blood sugar fairly constant by eating the same amount of carbs per meal. I am low carb and I would guess I eat between 10-20 gms of carbs a meal (I am not dieting.) My FIL is diabetic and they recently put him on a steady state mod. carb diet--he is to eat 60 carbs per meal no more, no less. Anyway, might be worth a try...
Posted by Sherry on July 20, 2001, at 20:25:25
In reply to MAOI tolerance (or whatever) » Sherry , posted by Elizabeth on July 20, 2001, at 14:06:20
Thanks Elizabeth for responding. Besides being depressed in the first place, having a medication work and then poop out is a big time bummer. Especially when it makes things worse. I hope you continue doing well with Parnate.
> Have you had any sort of neuropsych testing that would give you a more specific idea of what sort of deficits you have (or show that there is no specific deficit)? That might be worthwhile. I don't know.
>
> -elizabethWhat kind of testing is this? It has been suggested to me that it might be worthwhile to see a neurologist. Is this type of testing helpful to a pdoc?
Sherry> > I had the exact same experience with Parnate,(poop out within 6 months and a worsened imbalance).
>
> I think that might be very common. It's mentioned in _Listening to Prozac_, I think.
>
> > I'm getting ready to try Nardil after 2 years of not taking anything becuase of the fear of making things worse as with Parnate. I would love to hear of your experience with Nardil, and in what ways it made things worse for you.
>
> When it stopped working, I started getting agitated and moody and thinking about suicide constantly. It was different from when I'd been simply depressed. My pdoc thought it might be a dysphoric hypomania, so we tried adding Depakote to the Nardil, but that didn't help. Raising the dose of Nardil didn't help either. In fact, nothing helped except going off the Nardil. I started taking it again a couple months later, but the exact same thing happened. I decided Nardil wasn't right for me and crossed it off of my list, but that time when I'd been doing so badly on it really took a toll. It was more than a year of intense ups and downs, from fall '96 (when I first started taking Nardil) through winter '97 (when I stopped taking it the second time around). I think that the second time I took it, the AD effect went away sooner than it had the first time. It took a while after I stopped taking it for the agitation to go away, and I really didn't recover until sometime in mid-1998.
>
> Parnate didn't poop out, and it's probably the AD that I've had the most success with to date. So it's possible that the poop-out thing will happen with one MAOI but not another. I'm not sure whether the likelihood is greater with Nardil or with Parnate; I think it would be worthwhile for you to try Nardil, but very cautiously, watching for any signs of the type of problems you had with Parnate.
>
> > When Parnate pooped out for me,(BTW, it's the only thing that's ever even worked partially for me.) it took a toll on my cognitive abilities worse than anything. Since I have so little of my intelligence left( I used to consider myself slightly above average in certain aspects of my intelligence) and a short term memory that is horrible, I'm reluctant to try anything else.
>
> You're probably more intelligent than you think, FWIW. Most depressed people I've known have been very down on themselves.
>
> > I feel like Parnate messed up my carbohydrate metabolism because I feel differently after every meal.
>
> Huh. Nardil has some sort of weird effect on carb metabolism, but I don't think Parnate does.
>
> > Within 2.5 hours of eating, I can actually feel insulin levels go down because I lose the ability to thing clearly.
>
> I sometimes "crash" after a high-carb meal, but not often. I think Nardil made it worse. You might want to talk to your GP about this.
>
> > For example, it's difficult to think about how to solve a math problem. I have difficulty finding words, etc., etc. On the other hand, after eating meals, I have difficulty concentrating.
>
Posted by Cecilia on July 21, 2001, at 5:23:30
In reply to Re: Perfect Drug for Everyone? » Cecilia, posted by Elizabeth on July 20, 2001, at 13:47:36
> > Right now I`m taking 300 mg/day of Trazodone, 20 mg/day of Celexa, 1 mg/day of clonazepam and 100 mg/day of Atenolol(prescribed for blood pressure but maybe helps a little with anxiety).
>
> Interesting mix. One doesn't see trazodone used as an AD that often anymore.
>
> Atenolol can help with jittery feelings, palpitations, etc., but it's not so good for the ruminative, "can't-stop-thinking" sort of anxiety.
>
> > Also temazepam or Ambien "prn" for sleep (trazodone doesn`t make me sleepy at all).
>
> I can't imagine trazodone being a good long-term sleeping pill. When I tried to use it that way, I just kept developing tolerance and having to increase the dose.
>
> > I really don`t know if anything (except the sleeping pills) really does anyhing or not.
>
> Uh-oh!
>
> > Until a year ago I wasn`t on anything regularly except the Atenolol, I just kept trying each new med and giving it up because it didn`t help, or because the side effects were too bad for an adequate trial-the case with most of the tricyclics.
>
> That was my problem with the tricyclics too. But desipramine seems to be doing me some good without any significant side effects. For various reasons, I'd been down on the tricyclics and I didn't really expect desipramine to work, so this comes as a pleasant surprise. Did you manage to stick it out with desipramine?
>
> > Then my doctor told me there wasn`t anything left to try except ECT, which put me into the worst panicky depression of my life and I`ve probably been depressed since childhood-also anxious- I think I was born anxious.
>
> Me too. :-( I didn't have phobias or anything, but I was always very nervous and had (still have) very bad performance anxiety.
>
> Can you say more about your depression and anxiety? Like, what sort of symptoms do you have, and have any of your symptoms been alleviated or worsened by any of the drugs on your list?
>
> I don't think there's *ever* a point where you've tried so many medications that ECT is the only thing left. There are always weird, off-label things you can use. It's not surprising to see that you haven't tried an opioid, but given the large number of things that haven't worked for you, though, it might be worthwhile to look into the possibility, if you think there's a chance that your doctor would be willing. (I'd recommend doing some research before bringing it up, though.)
>
> > ECT (and people at work finding out about it) or suicide.
>
> Suicide isn't scary, but whenever I think about it I feel guilty. You know?
>
> > I got my doctor to prescribe Xanax(later changed to clonazepam) which was the 1st psychiatric drug(other than sleeping pills) that I ever felt had done anything for me at all.
>
> Some depressed people respond to Xanax, especially in high doses, and it's a great anxiolytic. In a situation like yours, where the depression might be secondary to anxiety, a benzodiazepine would seem like a logical thing to try. Do you find Klonopin equally helpful?
>
> > Then I decided to add Trazodone which I`d tried ten years ago but only at a low dose, ( because the doctor who prescribed it at the time was such a jerk that I wasn`t willing to go back to have the prescription increased).
>
> *ouch* :-)
>
> > With the trazodone I gradually got over that horrible panic, but I really don`t know if it WAS the trazodone or simply giving up the ECT idea.
>
> Probably a little of both, I'd think.
>
> > Later, I added Celexa, which I`d previously tried by itself, with buspar, with wellbutrin,and
> > with Neurontin, without ever feeeling it was doing anything, but I did feel more anxious when I went off it so I decided maybe it WAS doing something.
>
> SSRIs can be subtle (to put it mildly). How does Celexa compare to the other ones, since you've tried *all* of them? (I only ever tried Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil.)
>
> > So, I`m back to my baseline chronic depression but now on several drugs which I`m afraid to go off of in case they ARE helping.
>
> Oh dear. Looking over your list, I see that Nardil is on it. Did that do anything for you? IMO, it's the best AD for anxiety, although it does have some annoying side effects. And what about Neurontin? I tried it briefly once, and it reminded me of Xanax. I got scared and stopped taking it because it was giving me the munchies, though. (I gained 50 lbs on Nardil and only was able to lose the weight because I was so depressed when I stopped taking it; I'm not interested in going through that again!) I also notice that you've tried stimulants. What happened with those?
>
> Also, 1 mg/day of clonazepam really isn't all that much. You could probably increase it safely if your doctor says it's okay to.
>
> Maybe there isn't a perfect drug for you, but I bet that there's a combination that will make things better.
>
> -elizabethDesipramine was the lst AD I ever tried-only lasted 2 weeks on it-coudn`t stand the racing pulse, sweating, anxious caffeinated feeling. The only tricyclic I managed to stick with long enough for an adequate therapeutic trial was Nortriptyline and I only managed that by starting at 10 mg and working up to a therapeutic dose over 2 months-still had plenty of side effects even doing it that way. Of the SSRI`s-only lasted 3 weeks on Prozac, couldn`t take the anxiety and insomnia, Paxil and Zoloft were easy to tolerate with only a little nausea though later when I tried them again with the plan of adding augmentors the side effects were much worse, Luvox made me sick as a dog, Celexa has no side effects. I tried 3 separate times to tolerate Effexor, but even starting with a quarter of a 25 mg tablet couldn`t stand the nausea, diarrhea, insomnia. I only tried Ritalin for 4 days and Dexedrine for 3-more than long enough to convince me that stuimulants were not the way to go. Neurontin had no effects at all except a little dizziness when I got up to 1800 mg/day. I had a strange reaction to Nardil-took it for 4 weeks at 45 mg/ day-no side effects, no benefits, increased to 60 mg/day, no effects for 10 days, then woke up with a terrible headache, took my BP, it was ok so went to work,but felt worse and worse, extreme dryness and pain in eyes, horrible pain and strange "metallic" feeling in muscles and joints, I was too scared to take another pill. Years later I finally got the nerve to try another MAOI but only lasted a week on Parnate it made my anxiety, already very high(This was after my doctor had suggested ECT) even worse. I definitely don`t do well on "activating" meds. When I 1st tried Xanax it did seem to have an AD effect, but it wore off within a week or two, clonazepam is probably better because you don`t have the ups and downs. (Xanax would wake me up at night when it wore off). I really don`t know what else to try, my pdoc is the one at my HMO who deals with the treatment resistant cases and I had a consult with a Big Wig doctor at my city`s university hospital when I was considering ECT.
Posted by Else on July 21, 2001, at 5:52:29
In reply to Re: Perfect Drug for Everyone? » Cecilia, posted by Elizabeth on July 20, 2001, at 13:47:36
>I can't imagine trazodone being a good long-term sleeping pill. When I tried to use it that way, I just kept developing tolerance and having to increase the dose.
I just read a study comparing Trazodone, Triazolam and Zolpidem as hypnotics. They conclude Trazodone was superior because fewer people answered yes when asked whether they would want to take it again!!!!???????????? People hate this drug, thus it must be good.
> > Right now I`m taking 300 mg/day of Trazodone, 20 mg/day of Celexa, 1 mg/day of clonazepam and 100 mg/day of Atenolol(prescribed for blood pressure but maybe helps a little with anxiety).
>
> Interesting mix. One doesn't see trazodone used as an AD that often anymore.
>
> Atenolol can help with jittery feelings, palpitations, etc., but it's not so good for the ruminative, "can't-stop-thinking" sort of anxiety.
>
> > Also temazepam or Ambien "prn" for sleep (trazodone doesn`t make me sleepy at all).
>
> I can't imagine trazodone being a good long-term sleeping pill. When I tried to use it that way, I just kept developing tolerance and having to increase the dose.
>
> > I really don`t know if anything (except the sleeping pills) really does anyhing or not.
>
> Uh-oh!
>
> > Until a year ago I wasn`t on anything regularly except the Atenolol, I just kept trying each new med and giving it up because it didn`t help, or because the side effects were too bad for an adequate trial-the case with most of the tricyclics.
>
> That was my problem with the tricyclics too. But desipramine seems to be doing me some good without any significant side effects. For various reasons, I'd been down on the tricyclics and I didn't really expect desipramine to work, so this comes as a pleasant surprise. Did you manage to stick it out with desipramine?
>
> > Then my doctor told me there wasn`t anything left to try except ECT, which put me into the worst panicky depression of my life and I`ve probably been depressed since childhood-also anxious- I think I was born anxious.
>
> Me too. :-( I didn't have phobias or anything, but I was always very nervous and had (still have) very bad performance anxiety.
>
> Can you say more about your depression and anxiety? Like, what sort of symptoms do you have, and have any of your symptoms been alleviated or worsened by any of the drugs on your list?
>
> I don't think there's *ever* a point where you've tried so many medications that ECT is the only thing left. There are always weird, off-label things you can use. It's not surprising to see that you haven't tried an opioid, but given the large number of things that haven't worked for you, though, it might be worthwhile to look into the possibility, if you think there's a chance that your doctor would be willing. (I'd recommend doing some research before bringing it up, though.)
>
> > ECT (and people at work finding out about it) or suicide.
>
> Suicide isn't scary, but whenever I think about it I feel guilty. You know?
>
> > I got my doctor to prescribe Xanax(later changed to clonazepam) which was the 1st psychiatric drug(other than sleeping pills) that I ever felt had done anything for me at all.
>
> Some depressed people respond to Xanax, especially in high doses, and it's a great anxiolytic. In a situation like yours, where the depression might be secondary to anxiety, a benzodiazepine would seem like a logical thing to try. Do you find Klonopin equally helpful?
>
> > Then I decided to add Trazodone which I`d tried ten years ago but only at a low dose, ( because the doctor who prescribed it at the time was such a jerk that I wasn`t willing to go back to have the prescription increased).
>
> *ouch* :-)
>
> > With the trazodone I gradually got over that horrible panic, but I really don`t know if it WAS the trazodone or simply giving up the ECT idea.
>
> Probably a little of both, I'd think.
>
> > Later, I added Celexa, which I`d previously tried by itself, with buspar, with wellbutrin,and
> > with Neurontin, without ever feeeling it was doing anything, but I did feel more anxious when I went off it so I decided maybe it WAS doing something.
>
> SSRIs can be subtle (to put it mildly). How does Celexa compare to the other ones, since you've tried *all* of them? (I only ever tried Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil.)
>
> > So, I`m back to my baseline chronic depression but now on several drugs which I`m afraid to go off of in case they ARE helping.
>
> Oh dear. Looking over your list, I see that Nardil is on it. Did that do anything for you? IMO, it's the best AD for anxiety, although it does have some annoying side effects. And what about Neurontin? I tried it briefly once, and it reminded me of Xanax. I got scared and stopped taking it because it was giving me the munchies, though. (I gained 50 lbs on Nardil and only was able to lose the weight because I was so depressed when I stopped taking it; I'm not interested in going through that again!) I also notice that you've tried stimulants. What happened with those?
>
> Also, 1 mg/day of clonazepam really isn't all that much. You could probably increase it safely if your doctor says it's okay to.
>
> Maybe there isn't a perfect drug for you, but I bet that there's a combination that will make things better.
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on July 21, 2001, at 21:42:23
In reply to Re: MAOI tolerance (or whatever), posted by Sherry on July 20, 2001, at 20:25:25
> Thanks Elizabeth for responding. Besides being depressed in the first place, having a medication work and then poop out is a big time bummer. Especially when it makes things worse. I hope you continue doing well with Parnate.
Actually, I'm trying desipramine. Parnate was pretty good, but I was still having some problems with enjoying and being interested in things. I wanted to try a different approach.
> > Have you had any sort of neuropsych testing that would give you a more specific idea of what sort of deficits you have (or show that there is no specific deficit)? That might be worthwhile. I don't know.
>
> What kind of testing is this? It has been suggested to me that it might be worthwhile to see a neurologist. Is this type of testing helpful to a pdoc?It could be. The kind of thing I'm thinking of is a type of intelligence test where they try to determine whether you have any deficits in specific areas. I don't know how the results could be used, though.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on July 21, 2001, at 21:47:49
In reply to Re: Perfect Drug for Everyone?-Elizabeth, posted by Cecilia on July 21, 2001, at 5:23:30
> Desipramine was the lst AD I ever tried-only lasted 2 weeks on it-coudn`t stand the racing pulse, sweating, anxious caffeinated feeling.
TCAs do that a lot, and desipramine doesn't have the sedating effect to counteract the activation. I couldn't deal with the anticholinergic effects of most TCAs I've tried, so desipramine seemed like the best choice.
> The only tricyclic I managed to stick with long enough for an adequate therapeutic trial was Nortriptyline and I only managed that by starting at 10 mg and working up to a therapeutic dose over 2 months-still had plenty of side effects even doing it that way.
That's the way ago if ADs tend to make you jittery: start low and go slow.
> I tried 3 separate times to tolerate Effexor, but even starting with a quarter of a 25 mg tablet couldn`t stand the nausea, diarrhea, insomnia.
Did you try Effexor XR? I got sick to my stomach on regular Effexor, but the XR didn't cause that problem.
> I only tried Ritalin for 4 days and Dexedrine for 3-more than long enough to convince me that stuimulants were not the way to go.
What caused you to try stimulants in the first place?
> I really don`t know what else to try, my pdoc is the one at my HMO who deals with the treatment resistant cases and I had a consult with a Big Wig doctor at my city`s university hospital when I was considering ECT.
What did the consultant recommend?
-elizabeth
Posted by Cecilia on July 22, 2001, at 2:44:21
In reply to Re: Perfect Drug for Everyone? » Cecilia, posted by Elizabeth on July 21, 2001, at 21:47:49
> > Desipramine was the lst AD I ever tried-only lasted 2 weeks on it-coudn`t stand the racing pulse, sweating, anxious caffeinated feeling.
>
> TCAs do that a lot, and desipramine doesn't have the sedating effect to counteract the activation. I couldn't deal with the anticholinergic effects of most TCAs I've tried, so desipramine seemed like the best choice.
>
> > The only tricyclic I managed to stick with long enough for an adequate therapeutic trial was Nortriptyline and I only managed that by starting at 10 mg and working up to a therapeutic dose over 2 months-still had plenty of side effects even doing it that way.
>
> That's the way ago if ADs tend to make you jittery: start low and go slow.
>
> > I tried 3 separate times to tolerate Effexor, but even starting with a quarter of a 25 mg tablet couldn`t stand the nausea, diarrhea, insomnia.
>
> Did you try Effexor XR? I got sick to my stomach on regular Effexor, but the XR didn't cause that problem.
>
> > I only tried Ritalin for 4 days and Dexedrine for 3-more than long enough to convince me that stuimulants were not the way to go.
>
> What caused you to try stimulants in the first place?
>
> > I really don`t know what else to try, my pdoc is the one at my HMO who deals with the treatment resistant cases and I had a consult with a Big Wig doctor at my city`s university hospital when I was considering ECT.
>
> What did the consultant recommend?
>
> -elizabethI did try the Effexor XR but it was even worse since you can`t start at a dose lower than 37.5 mg. I only did a brief trial of stimulants because of the frequent advice here on Psycho-Babble to try different categories of drugs-all they did was make my insomnia much much worse. I tried a mood-stablizer (Neurontin, plus previously had tried lithium augmentation, though couldn`t tolerate the side effects of that) and anti-psychotics (Zyprexa and amisulpride) for the same reason-the frequent advice here to try all categories of drugs. Even though I`m definitely not bipolar, or psychotic, or ADD, just plain old chronic depression, primarily atypical, plus anxiety and social phobia. My doctor was willing, he didn`t have anything better to suggest. (Though I didn`t tell him about the Amisulpride, ordered it from overseas after so many raves about it on
Psycho-babble). The consultant I went to had, besides ECT, only the suggestions of trying Effexor again, (which I did, 1st the XR and then the regular starting at 6.5 mg day, only made it to 18.5 mg/day), and cognitive/behavioral therapy. I`d already had 7 years of psychodynamic therapy, which ended in excruciating pain when my therapist basically gave up on me, but I did try the CBT for a couple of months, even though from the books I read I`ve never understood how you make yourself believe the "rational"(as defined by the therapist) thoughts. I guess it works for some people, but it just gave me one more failure to hate myself for.
Posted by Elizabeth on July 22, 2001, at 15:05:48
In reply to Re: Perfect Drug for Everyone?-Elizabeth, posted by Cecilia on July 22, 2001, at 2:44:21
> I did try the Effexor XR but it was even worse since you can`t start at a dose lower than 37.5 mg.
Was it? It really shouldn't be worse, since it's 37.5 mg only once daily with controlled release.
> I tried a mood-stablizer (Neurontin, plus previously had tried lithium augmentation, though couldn`t tolerate the side effects of that) and anti-psychotics (Zyprexa and amisulpride) for the same reason-the frequent advice here to try all categories of drugs.
Neurontin actually can help wity anxiety. And amisulpride is an antidepressant at lower doses, IIRC.
> I`d already had 7 years of psychodynamic therapy, which ended in excruciating pain when my therapist basically gave up on me, but I did try the CBT for a couple of months, even though from the books I read I`ve never understood how you make yourself believe the "rational"(as defined by the therapist) thoughts. I guess it works for some people, but it just gave me one more failure to hate myself for.
I understand. That was how I felt about "talk" therapies, too: it seemed like I was always at fault when the therapy wasn't effective, and to a certain extent I internalised that.
-elizabeth
Posted by thrasher on July 22, 2001, at 20:27:42
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine (Remeron), posted by Sherry on July 20, 2001, at 8:28:36
> I feel like Parnate messed up my carbohydrate metabolism because I feel differently after every meal. I also feel differently depending on the level of carbos in my diet. Within 2.5 hours of eating, I can actually feel insulin levels go down because I lose the ability to thing clearly. For example, it's difficult to think about how to solve a math problem. I have difficulty finding words, etc., etc. On the other hand, after eating meals, I have difficulty concentrating. I can think clearly as long as I keep a fairly high level of carbs in my diet.
> SherryI was suprised to hear this - I just figured that out a few weeks ago after 2 years of almost narcolepsy!
I used to eat breakfast every morning, 2-4 bowls of cereal. Just always have.
In the past year or two I have been spontaneously falling asleep at around 10am-12pm.
Not good when your boss finds you curled up under your desk asleep...
Yep, I feel the same too. After eating most meals, around 15-45 mins later I get this incredible urge to sleep
like 50+ mg of temazepam.. weird.. normally you can shake off sedative effects and still stay conscious.
it's like trying to resist a general anaesthetic!So yes I have also found that eating early in the day is very similar to having 12 hours sleep (like when you feel OK when you go to bed but wake up wishing you'd stayed awake because you feel miserable).
Now I just have a cup of tea in the morning, and I feel a lot more energetic.
I haven't isolated exactly what it is that screws up your mind when you eat but so long as you're aware of it you can manage it.thanks for sharing your info, while it's awful someone else has this it's also relieving for me because it means I'm not delusional :)
regards
Posted by Sherry on July 23, 2001, at 19:15:07
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine (Remeron) EATING = SLEEPY/TIRED! » Sherry , posted by thrasher on July 22, 2001, at 20:27:42
No, You're absolutely not delusional. If you would like a good board to go to find out more info , there's a good one at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hypo. Do a search on hypoglycemia, and join the group "Hypo"
I have been unsuccessful in finding anything to help, but there are many people that have been successful. Go check it out. I don't think you;ll be sorry.Good luck,
Sherry
> > I feel like Parnate messed up my carbohydrate metabolism because I feel differently after every meal. I also feel differently depending on the level of carbos in my diet. Within 2.5 hours of eating, I can actually feel insulin levels go down because I lose the ability to thing clearly. For example, it's difficult to think about how to solve a math problem. I have difficulty finding words, etc., etc. On the other hand, after eating meals, I have difficulty concentrating. I can think clearly as long as I keep a fairly high level of carbs in my diet.
> > Sherry
>
> I was suprised to hear this - I just figured that out a few weeks ago after 2 years of almost narcolepsy!
> I used to eat breakfast every morning, 2-4 bowls of cereal. Just always have.
> In the past year or two I have been spontaneously falling asleep at around 10am-12pm.
> Not good when your boss finds you curled up under your desk asleep...
> Yep, I feel the same too. After eating most meals, around 15-45 mins later I get this incredible urge to sleep
> like 50+ mg of temazepam.. weird.. normally you can shake off sedative effects and still stay conscious.
> it's like trying to resist a general anaesthetic!
>
> So yes I have also found that eating early in the day is very similar to having 12 hours sleep (like when you feel OK when you go to bed but wake up wishing you'd stayed awake because you feel miserable).
> Now I just have a cup of tea in the morning, and I feel a lot more energetic.
> I haven't isolated exactly what it is that screws up your mind when you eat but so long as you're aware of it you can manage it.
>
> thanks for sharing your info, while it's awful someone else has this it's also relieving for me because it means I'm not delusional :)
>
>
> regards
Posted by jotho on July 25, 2001, at 22:13:20
In reply to Re: Perfect Drug for Everyone?, posted by JohnL on July 19, 2001, at 15:47:04
Hello JohnL...I have been scanning the boards lately to see if i could find any recent posts of yours. I am highly curious as to your adrafinil/amisulpride regimine i.e. is it still as effective...are you still happy with it...any kind of update. I am in agreement that most, if not all, through persistance (maybe a little luck, also?) can find a 'cocktail' suitable to their purpose or need. I am recovering from a little bout with effexor withdrawal (stopped 7 weeks ago and withdrawal problems finally beginning to resolve) and 2 1/2 weeks ago began taking adrafinil@ 450 mgs daily (am feeling a bit chatty...kinda speaking a little quickly before my mind is actually in gear and might try cutting down to 1/2 pill morning and again afternoon) Feeling pretty good, am sleeping regularly now, and am in pretty good spirits. Would like to try enhancing the situation with amisulpride and wonder if you can share some of your enviable knowledge on this subject?....thanks, jotho
Posted by JohnL on July 26, 2001, at 3:52:54
In reply to Re: Perfect Drug for Everyone? JohnL, posted by jotho on July 25, 2001, at 22:13:20
> Hello JohnL...I have been scanning the boards lately to see if i could find any recent posts of yours. I am highly curious as to your adrafinil/amisulpride regimine i.e. is it still as effective...are you still happy with it...any kind of update. I am in agreement that most, if not all, through persistance (maybe a little luck, also?) can find a 'cocktail' suitable to their purpose or need. I am recovering from a little bout with effexor withdrawal (stopped 7 weeks ago and withdrawal problems finally beginning to resolve) and 2 1/2 weeks ago began taking adrafinil@ 450 mgs daily (am feeling a bit chatty...kinda speaking a little quickly before my mind is actually in gear and might try cutting down to 1/2 pill morning and again afternoon) Feeling pretty good, am sleeping regularly now, and am in pretty good spirits. Would like to try enhancing the situation with amisulpride and wonder if you can share some of your enviable knowledge on this subject?....thanks, jotho
Hi Jotho,
I'm not sure what to comment on about Amisulpride, except that I do really like it and it does combine very nicely with Adrafinil. It is my guess that if Amisulpride was available in the USA, we would see a whole lot of people get well with it. Especially people who have been struggling with garden variety SSRI antidepressants. In my own experience, it is far better than what we have in the USA and has few side effects.In clinical research there is implication that Adrafinil has indirect effects on D2 dopamine receptors. Since Amisulpride stimulates D2 dopamine receptors, maybe that's why they combine so nicely.
The only problem with Amisulpride is getting it. The international pharmacy where it was previously easily available is now requiring a prescription. Previously they did not. I have not confirmed this, but several people have commented on it. I have a large supply, but if I needed more I'm not sure at this point where I would get it.
A year ago I ordered some Amisulpride mailorder from a German pharmacy, but I didn't save the name or address. I found it by doing online searches for stuff like "Amisulpride+German+farmacia", or "Solian+German+farmacia", or "Amisulpride+farmacia", etc, trying different European country names as well. When I found some possible sources I emailed them. Some didn't respond, but some did. Creative online searching will be required to find a source for Amisulpride. I know from experience that sources do exist, but a little hunting is needed to find them. The trouble and time invested is well worth it. I wish I could share an address with you, but I don't have any at this moment.
I'm glad you are doing better. Isn't it kind of ironic and kind of sad that we, the most advanced nation in the world, have to go outside our own borders to find really good medicine? I know the FDA is out to supposedly protect us, but they inadvertently rob us of the opportunity to easily secure wonderful medicines from around the world.
In the last few months I have been taking 5mg Zyprexa instead of Amisulpride. They are similar in some ways I think, except that Zyprexa has a sedation component that helps with sleep, and Zyprexa has more wide ranging effects on various receptors, not just D2 dopamine.
Though I am 98% well, I must admit I am sensitive to negative life situations. I can still experience short depressive falls, sparked off by something in real life such as a money problem, a scolding from a boss, etc. When that happens, I simply add 25mg Amisulpride to my program for about two or three days. The cool thing is that it works for me in just hours, and then it seems to rejuvenate me for weeks after I stop it. If I slip, somehow Amisulpride is able to reset everything back to normal. I only need it on an as-needed basis, and it works great for me. I would feel uneasy and vulnerable if I did not have an emergency supply standing by for those rough moments.
John
Posted by JaneB on July 26, 2001, at 8:57:51
In reply to Re: Perfect Drug for Everyone? Jotho, posted by JohnL on July 26, 2001, at 3:52:54
>
> In clinical research there is implication that Adrafinil has indirect effects on D2 dopamine receptors. Since Amisulpride stimulates D2 dopamine receptors, maybe that's why they combine so nicely.
>
Hi John,
A question for you of great knowledge:
Does Wellbutrin have effects on D2 dopamine receptors?
thanks,
JaneB
Posted by sjb on November 5, 2001, at 7:28:37
In reply to Re: Perfect Drug for Everyone?-Elizabeth, posted by Cecilia on July 22, 2001, at 2:44:21
I've had a very similar experience to what you have had. Now on my fourth day of Desipramine and ready to go off. Depression worse, carbo/bakery binges worse (which would seem impossible considering my severe binging habits) and I haven't been in work for days. I'm so scared that I will never find help. I, too, had my last PDoc (who is touted as the best in this area) tell me that he did not know what else to do for me. Are you on anything right now?
This is the end of the thread.
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