![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by jojo on July 20, 2001, at 18:22:43
In reply to Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by Else on July 20, 2001, at 17:14:22
> I have been reading some vague observations about poor dopaminergic function in SP and a corelation between introversion and low dopamine levels but I can't find anything to really sink my teeth into. Would this mean stimulants would be helpful for SP (sorry if I'm a hundred years late on this, maybe I am).
Yes, Else, I'm afraid you are a hundred years late on this one. You seem to think that we're dealing with a science here. For every antidepressant listed in the PDR, you will see "'The mode of action of xxx is not well understood'. You can drop that "well". They don't even bother writing it down for herbs. We're not just talking dopamine or seratonin receptors here, we're talking D1, D2, D3, Dn, and S1, S2, Sn. The same for noradrenaline and the fifty other neurotransmitters that we know of, plus the hundred others that we don't know about. Ditto for which part of the brain we're talking about.. The name of The game is: If You Can Get It, And It Works, And The Good Effects Exceed the Bad Ones, Take It.
What's good for Social Phobia? Some people use alcohol. Others use marijuana. Many use stimulants such as Ritalin, Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn. Some use Valium, while others use Valium plus alcohol, and possibly toss in some marijuana. Celexa works for some people.
Others use Celexa plus Wellbutrin. Others swear, (at least for that evening) on Serzone and Neurontin, possibly with a little Desoxyn on the side. Opiates and their antagonists help many people. A lot of people just act the way they think they're supposed to act, and get by on that. You pay your money, or your insurance plan's money, and you take your chance. With a lot of homework and a good (open minded) physician, and some luck, the good days come to outnumber the bad ones. Here's to You, Kid!
Posted by Else on July 20, 2001, at 18:43:04
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia Else, posted by jojo on July 20, 2001, at 18:22:43
Thanks, but, I didn't even think Desoxyn was still legal (not that you can't get methamphetamine on every street corner anyway, though). Pot wont do for me, gives me panic attacks, very aversive. Celexa probably sucks since it's an SSRI or close enough anyway. Actually, I take both Klonopin and Neurontin but they turn my brain to mush. Wellbutrin is good at reversing that but it makes me twitch. Anyway, I was just wondering. I am looking for THE PERFECT DRUG or a combination of adequate ones. Maybe someday.
> > I have been reading some vague observations about poor dopaminergic function in SP and a corelation between introversion and low dopamine levels but I can't find anything to really sink my teeth into. Would this mean stimulants would be helpful for SP (sorry if I'm a hundred years late on this, maybe I am).
>
> Yes, Else, I'm afraid you are a hundred years late on this one. You seem to think that we're dealing with a science here. For every antidepressant listed in the PDR, you will see "'The mode of action of xxx is not well understood'. You can drop that "well". They don't even bother writing it down for herbs. We're not just talking dopamine or seratonin receptors here, we're talking D1, D2, D3, Dn, and S1, S2, Sn. The same for noradrenaline and the fifty other neurotransmitters that we know of, plus the hundred others that we don't know about. Ditto for which part of the brain we're talking about.. The name of The game is: If You Can Get It, And It Works, And The Good Effects Exceed the Bad Ones, Take It.
>
> What's good for Social Phobia? Some people use alcohol. Others use marijuana. Many use stimulants such as Ritalin, Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn. Some use Valium, while others use Valium plus alcohol, and possibly toss in some marijuana. Celexa works for some people.
> Others use Celexa plus Wellbutrin. Others swear, (at least for that evening) on Serzone and Neurontin, possibly with a little Desoxyn on the side. Opiates and their antagonists help many people. A lot of people just act the way they think they're supposed to act, and get by on that. You pay your money, or your insurance plan's money, and you take your chance. With a lot of homework and a good (open minded) physician, and some luck, the good days come to outnumber the bad ones. Here's to You, Kid!
>
Posted by jojo on July 20, 2001, at 19:25:43
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by Else on July 20, 2001, at 18:43:04
> Thanks, but, I didn't even think Desoxyn was still legal (not that you can't get methamphetamine on every street corner anyway, though). Pot wont do for me, gives me panic attacks, very aversive. Celexa probably sucks since it's an SSRI or close enough anyway. Actually, I take both Klonopin and Neurontin but they turn my brain to mush. Wellbutrin is good at reversing that but it makes me twitch. Anyway, I was just wondering. I am looking for THE PERFECT DRUG or a combination of adequate ones. Maybe someday.
>
>
>
> > > I have been reading some vague observations about poor dopaminergic function in SP and a corelation between introversion and low dopamine levels but I can't find anything to really sink my teeth into. Would this mean stimulants would be helpful for SP (sorry if I'm a hundred years late on this, maybe I am).
> >
> > Yes, Else, I'm afraid you are a hundred years late on this one. You seem to think that we're dealing with a science here. For every antidepressant listed in the PDR, you will see "'The mode of action of xxx is not well understood'. You can drop that "well". They don't even bother writing it down for herbs. We're not just talking dopamine or seratonin receptors here, we're talking D1, D2, D3, Dn, and S1, S2, Sn. The same for noradrenaline and the fifty other neurotransmitters that we know of, plus the hundred others that we don't know about. Ditto for which part of the brain we're talking about.. The name of The game is: If You Can Get It, And It Works, And The Good Effects Exceed the Bad Ones, Take It.
> >
> > What's good for Social Phobia? Some people use alcohol. Others use marijuana. Many use stimulants such as Ritalin, Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn. Some use Valium, while others use Valium plus alcohol, and possibly toss in some marijuana. Celexa works for some people.
> > Others use Celexa plus Wellbutrin. Others swear, (at least for that evening) on Serzone and Neurontin, possibly with a little Desoxyn on the side. Opiates and their antagonists help many people. A lot of people just act the way they think they're supposed to act, and get by on that. You pay your money, or your insurance plan's money, and you take your chance. With a lot of homework and a good (open minded) physician, and some luck, the good days come to outnumber the bad ones. Here's to You, Kid!
> >
Desoxyn is still legal, but it seems that the media doesn't want
the public to understand that methamphetamine is not always
"the killer, Crystal Meth, which is destroying the brains of our youth".
It sells newspapers, spices up TV news, raises fear in the public,
stimulates the prison industry and the War on Drugs…
but I digress. We're all "looking for THE PERFECT DRUG or a combination of adequate ones."Elizabeth and I are trying buprenorphine, she for about 7 months I think, and me for about 2 weeks.
It looks like neither of us has crashed yet, and I'm feeling pretty good. But "How Good is Good Enough?
Posted by Else on July 20, 2001, at 20:10:41
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » Else, posted by jojo on July 20, 2001, at 19:25:43
>But "How Good is Good Enough?
You said it! (Or was it me?) Anyway. Much of the goodies availlable to you Americans are "bad for us" here in Canada, or so says our very own Big Brother, Health Canada. Opiates? maybe in a hundred years. I can't even get Ritalin and believe me I am a ditz. I know there are no surefire ways of diagnosing ADD but the number of times I've locked myself out of my appartment (hundreds) should count for something. My pdoc has agreed to prescribe Klonopin which is a big step for him. I'm still working on him to get Parnate which will likely be a Herculean task. Anyway, good luck to you two with the buprenorphine. You know, it's funny, I remember reading a quote (in the book "From Chocolate to Morphine" by semi-quack Andrew Weil) by a woman who said the first time in her life she ever felt o.k. was when she took codeine. And think of all these melancholic writers and musicians who ended up on heroin. Maybe there is a type of depression related to endorphin-deficiency, who knows? Of course this may or may not be something everybody else here already knows. Anyhow. I would worry about the FDA getting really worked up over the prescribing of opiates for depression though. Right now, no one knows what buprenorphine is so the media can't yet mount some huge propaganda campaign about how it destroys young minds. Stadol is prescribed for migraines here (probably in the US too) and journalists are already beginning to hyperventilate. My theory is, the media creates the hype that forces the government to ban or restrict medications for fear of getting kicked out of office ( and pharmaceutical companies do it to keep from getting sued).
Under the pretence of protecting citizens from the evil pharmaceutical industry and drug cartels, they sell millions of their own rags and keep people from having access to treatments that might greatly benefit them. Of course, that's not a very original theory is it? But let me give you an example (this is getting very long, I know but it's a good story). I saw this report about the pseudo-news pharmaceutical companies send to newspapers. In this case, the offender was McNeil, maker of Tylenol. The press release in question was not news at all but a well established fact: A.A.S. and NSAIDs may cause gastro-intestinal bleeding but acetaminophen does not. The newspapers picked this up and printed it as a breakthrough scientific revelation without ever revealing the makers of Tylenol were behind this. Of course, no mention was made of McNeil's own Motrin either. Or the fact that Tylenol can cause irreverable liver damage when taken in overdose and/or with lots of alcohol (relevant information, as a teenager, I used to take Tylenol pre-emptively after a bender). See what I mean? One day I'll get a stroke over something like this.> > Thanks, but, I didn't even think Desoxyn was still legal (not that you can't get methamphetamine on every street corner anyway, though). Pot wont do for me, gives me panic attacks, very aversive. Celexa probably sucks since it's an SSRI or close enough anyway. Actually, I take both Klonopin and Neurontin but they turn my brain to mush. Wellbutrin is good at reversing that but it makes me twitch. Anyway, I was just wondering. I am looking for THE PERFECT DRUG or a combination of adequate ones. Maybe someday.
> >
> >
> >
> > > > I have been reading some vague observations about poor dopaminergic function in SP and a corelation between introversion and low dopamine levels but I can't find anything to really sink my teeth into. Would this mean stimulants would be helpful for SP (sorry if I'm a hundred years late on this, maybe I am).
> > >
> > > Yes, Else, I'm afraid you are a hundred years late on this one. You seem to think that we're dealing with a science here. For every antidepressant listed in the PDR, you will see "'The mode of action of xxx is not well understood'. You can drop that "well". They don't even bother writing it down for herbs. We're not just talking dopamine or seratonin receptors here, we're talking D1, D2, D3, Dn, and S1, S2, Sn. The same for noradrenaline and the fifty other neurotransmitters that we know of, plus the hundred others that we don't know about. Ditto for which part of the brain we're talking about.. The name of The game is: If You Can Get It, And It Works, And The Good Effects Exceed the Bad Ones, Take It.
> > >
> > > What's good for Social Phobia? Some people use alcohol. Others use marijuana. Many use stimulants such as Ritalin, Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn. Some use Valium, while others use Valium plus alcohol, and possibly toss in some marijuana. Celexa works for some people.
> > > Others use Celexa plus Wellbutrin. Others swear, (at least for that evening) on Serzone and Neurontin, possibly with a little Desoxyn on the side. Opiates and their antagonists help many people. A lot of people just act the way they think they're supposed to act, and get by on that. You pay your money, or your insurance plan's money, and you take your chance. With a lot of homework and a good (open minded) physician, and some luck, the good days come to outnumber the bad ones. Here's to You, Kid!
> > >
> Desoxyn is still legal, but it seems that the media doesn't want
> the public to understand that methamphetamine is not always
> "the killer, Crystal Meth, which is destroying the brains of our youth".
> It sells newspapers, spices up TV news, raises fear in the public,
> stimulates the prison industry and the War on Drugs…
> but I digress. We're all "looking for THE PERFECT DRUG or a combination of adequate ones."
>
> Elizabeth and I are trying buprenorphine, she for about 7 months I think, and me for about 2
weeks.
> It looks like neither of us has crashed yet, and I'm feeling pretty good.
Posted by Neal on July 21, 2001, at 0:42:45
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » Else, posted by jojo on July 20, 2001, at 19:25:43
> Elizabeth and I are trying buprenorphine, she for about 7 months I think, and me for about 2 weeks.
> It looks like neither of us has crashed yet, and I'm feeling pretty good. But "How Good is Good Enough?Jojo - glad to hear that bup is helpful. I'm taking the Temgesic sublingual tabs and so far, so good (started a week ago).
Posted by jojo on July 21, 2001, at 1:37:11
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » jojo, posted by Neal on July 21, 2001, at 0:42:45
>
> > Elizabeth and I are trying buprenorphine, she for about 7 months I think, and me for about 2 weeks.
> > It looks like neither of us has crashed yet, and I'm feeling pretty good. But "How Good is Good Enough?
>
> Jojo - glad to hear that bup is helpful. I'm taking the Temgesic sublingual tabs and so far, so good (started a week ago).Several times in the past I've stopped taking SSRIs, which had been somewhat successful, because of their sexual side effects. It usually took 4-6 weeks to crash. The first week I generally felt better. So I'm not yet convinced of its effectiveness, and fearful about a crash They're really rough, but Elizabeth (or maybe it was the Biological Psychiatry abstract) says Buprenex can have an effect in as little as 1 hour, but maybe up to 3 days. I can do that standing on my head with one hand tied behind my back, but I am awaiting the outcome, and trying to figure out the difference
between and antidepressant effect and a "euphoric" effect ("euphoric" meaning normal mood, as opposed to "euthymic", which I think means mood which is not pathological. I think I can tell the difference if I have excessive hypomania (someone said that the goal is of course controlled hypomania), but coming from the down side, I'm not sure if I can tell "Normal". I can't compare it to my previous feelings, as I've been down so long it looks like up to me. Will I be as happy as George Bush or Bill Gates, and have the energy of Gates, at least. Bush, like Reagan, has so many handlers that it's hard to get any kind of picture of him that they don't which to project. He actually could be the shallow, "regular guy" image that they project. I'd still prefer to have dinner with Clinton or Gore, they'd be a lot more interesting, and there'd be less backslapping and showing whose The Man.
Posted by JohnL on July 21, 2001, at 4:11:38
In reply to Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by Else on July 20, 2001, at 17:14:22
> I have been reading some vague observations about poor dopaminergic function in SP and a corelation between introversion and low dopamine levels but I can't find anything to really sink my teeth into. Would this mean stimulants would be helpful for SP (sorry if I'm a hundred years late on this, maybe I am).
Hi,
I think (just my opinion) that dopamine is indeed a major player in social phobia. Usually SSRIs are prescribed for social phobia. I think the reason they can work is because they merely numb emotions.I was on a European drug called Amisulpride for quite a while. It is an antipsychotic that only increases dopamine function. It has no effect on anything else. When I was on it I noticed my shyness went away, I became more talkative, comfortable around people, confident, etc.
Since then my treatment has evolved into Prozac+Zyprexa+Adrafinil. Zyprexa sort-of replaces Amisulpride, and sort-of does the same thing, while Adrafinil helps even more with the social phobia thing. Even normal people who take Adrafinil can notice an increase in socialability and they become more talkative, more outgoing, and more comfortable in a crowd. Prozac is in the mix because I like a mildly stimulating antidepressant, and it just happens to combine super with Zyprexa and/or Adrafinil.
Just my random thoughts. Hope something here is helpful.
John
Posted by Else on July 21, 2001, at 7:48:30
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by JohnL on July 21, 2001, at 4:11:38
Hi John
I agree with you about SSRIs doing nothing but numbing emotions but I'm surprised that an antipsychotic would increase dopamine function. Aren't APs suppose to block dopamine receptors and decrese dopamine function? If not then why do they cause Parkinsonism. Unless new APs are completely different, but the warnings in the PDR, CPS and the like are the same about EPS and TD (except for clozaril but as you must know it causes a different set of severe problems in some people). I don't think Adrafinil is available in Canada (nothing good is). I have my sights set on Ritalin or Parnate but it might be years until my doctor aquiesces.
Thank you for the input
>
> Hi,
> I think (just my opinion) that dopamine is indeed a major player in social phobia. Usually SSRIs are prescribed for social phobia. I think the reason they can work is because they merely numb emotions.
>
> I was on a European drug called Amisulpride for quite a while. It is an antipsychotic that only increases dopamine function. It has no effect on anything else. When I was on it I noticed my shyness went away, I became more talkative, comfortable around people, confident, etc.
>
> Since then my treatment has evolved into Prozac+Zyprexa+Adrafinil. Zyprexa sort-of replaces Amisulpride, and sort-of does the same thing, while Adrafinil helps even more with the social phobia thing. Even normal people who take Adrafinil can notice an increase in socialability and they become more talkative, more outgoing, and more comfortable in a crowd. Prozac is in the mix because I like a mildly stimulating antidepressant, and it just happens to combine super with Zyprexa and/or Adrafinil.
>
> Just my random thoughts. Hope something here is helpful.
> John
Posted by JohnL on July 21, 2001, at 9:38:48
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by Else on July 21, 2001, at 7:48:30
Hi Else,
Yes, APs do block dopamine function, but primarily at higher doses. At lower doses they actually stimulate dopamine function. I am referring to Zyprexa and Risperdal and Amisulpride. All the others do indeed block dopamine. But then again, a lot of weird emotions including depression can be caused by excess dopamine. That's why they call it 'chemical imbalance'. Chemical imbalance can be too much as well as too little. Restoring the correct balance is the goal, but sometimes we don't know ahead of time whether we need to increase it or decrease it. We always tend to think in terms of increasing it, but that is not always the case. Excesses are just as bad as deficiencies. Back to the APs though, the newer ones are sort-of dual action. They work differently at low doses than they do at high doses. There is generally very little risk of TD, Parkinsons, or other weird things at low doses. Usually those kinds of things occur with people taking heavy duty doses.
John> Hi John
> I agree with you about SSRIs doing nothing but numbing emotions but I'm surprised that an antipsychotic would increase dopamine function. Aren't APs suppose to block dopamine receptors and decrese dopamine function? If not then why do they cause Parkinsonism. Unless new APs are completely different, but the warnings in the PDR, CPS and the like are the same about EPS and TD (except for clozaril but as you must know it causes a different set of severe problems in some people). I don't think Adrafinil is available in Canada (nothing good is). I have my sights set on Ritalin or Parnate but it might be years until my doctor aquiesces.
> Thank you for the input
> >
> > Hi,
> > I think (just my opinion) that dopamine is indeed a major player in social phobia. Usually SSRIs are prescribed for social phobia. I think the reason they can work is because they merely numb emotions.
> >
> > I was on a European drug called Amisulpride for quite a while. It is an antipsychotic that only increases dopamine function. It has no effect on anything else. When I was on it I noticed my shyness went away, I became more talkative, comfortable around people, confident, etc.
> >
> > Since then my treatment has evolved into Prozac+Zyprexa+Adrafinil. Zyprexa sort-of replaces Amisulpride, and sort-of does the same thing, while Adrafinil helps even more with the social phobia thing. Even normal people who take Adrafinil can notice an increase in socialability and they become more talkative, more outgoing, and more comfortable in a crowd. Prozac is in the mix because I like a mildly stimulating antidepressant, and it just happens to combine super with Zyprexa and/or Adrafinil.
> >
> > Just my random thoughts. Hope something here is helpful.
> > John
Posted by Andy123 on July 21, 2001, at 10:40:35
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia...Else, posted by JohnL on July 21, 2001, at 9:38:48
> Hi Else,
> Yes, APs do block dopamine function, but primarily at higher doses. At lower doses they actually stimulate dopamine function. I am referring to Zyprexa and Risperdal and Amisulpride.I have seen this in the literature concerning amisulpride, but not zyprexa and risperdal. Could you support this assertion with any references?
Posted by jojo on July 21, 2001, at 12:53:06
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by JohnL on July 21, 2001, at 4:11:38
> > I have been reading some vague observations about poor dopaminergic function in SP and a corelation between introversion and low dopamine levels but I can't find anything to really sink my teeth into. Would this mean stimulants would be helpful for SP (sorry if I'm a hundred years late on this, maybe I am).
>
> Hi,
> I think (just my opinion) that dopamine is indeed a major player in social phobia. Usually SSRIs are prescribed for social phobia. I think the reason they can work is because they merely numb emotions.
>
> I was on a European drug called Amisulpride for quite a while. It is an antipsychotic that only increases dopamine function. It has no effect on anything else. When I was on it I noticed my shyness went away, I became more talkative, comfortable around people, confident, etc.
>
> Since then my treatment has evolved into Prozac+Zyprexa+Adrafinil. Zyprexa sort-of replaces Amisulpride, and sort-of does the same thing, while Adrafinil helps even more with the social phobia thing. Even normal people who take Adrafinil can notice an increase in socialability and they become more talkative, more outgoing, and more comfortable in a crowd. Prozac is in the mix because I like a mildly stimulating antidepressant, and it just happens to combine super with Zyprexa and/or Adrafinil.
>
> Just my random thoughts. Hope something here is helpful.
> JohnIf "normal" people become more sociable on it, doesn't that make it a "euphoriant" in the current medical terminology, and is the use of it by "normal" people a sign of drug abuse ; >) ?
Posted by v on July 21, 2001, at 16:04:51
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » jojo, posted by Else on July 20, 2001, at 20:10:41
can you get concerta? it's a slow release form of ritalin and still relatively new
hope this helps
v
>
> >But "How Good is Good Enough?
>
> You said it! (Or was it me?) Anyway. Much of the goodies availlable to you Americans are "bad for us" here in Canada, or so says our very own Big Brother, Health Canada. Opiates? maybe in a hundred years. I can't even get Ritalin and believe me I am a ditz. I know there are no surefire ways of diagnosing ADD but the number of times I've locked myself out of my appartment (hundreds) should count for something. My pdoc has agreed to prescribe Klonopin which is a big step for him. I'm still working on him to get Parnate which will likely be a Herculean task. Anyway, good luck to you two with the buprenorphine. You know, it's funny, I remember reading a quote (in the book "From Chocolate to Morphine" by semi-quack Andrew Weil) by a woman who said the first time in her life she ever felt o.k. was when she took codeine. And think of all these melancholic writers and musicians who ended up on heroin. Maybe there is a type of depression related to endorphin-deficiency, who knows? Of course this may or may not be something everybody else here already knows. Anyhow. I would worry about the FDA getting really worked up over the prescribing of opiates for depression though. Right now, no one knows what buprenorphine is so the media can't yet mount some huge propaganda campaign about how it destroys young minds. Stadol is prescribed for migraines here (probably in the US too) and journalists are already beginning to hyperventilate. My theory is, the media creates the hype that forces the government to ban or restrict medications for fear of getting kicked out of office ( and pharmaceutical companies do it to keep from getting sued).
> Under the pretence of protecting citizens from the evil pharmaceutical industry and drug cartels, they sell millions of their own rags and keep people from having access to treatments that might greatly benefit them. Of course, that's not a very original theory is it? But let me give you an example (this is getting very long, I know but it's a good story). I saw this report about the pseudo-news pharmaceutical companies send to newspapers. In this case, the offender was McNeil, maker of Tylenol. The press release in question was not news at all but a well established fact: A.A.S. and NSAIDs may cause gastro-intestinal bleeding but acetaminophen does not. The newspapers picked this up and printed it as a breakthrough scientific revelation without ever revealing the makers of Tylenol were behind this. Of course, no mention was made of McNeil's own Motrin either. Or the fact that Tylenol can cause irreverable liver damage when taken in overdose and/or with lots of alcohol (relevant information, as a teenager, I used to take Tylenol pre-emptively after a bender). See what I mean? One day I'll get a stroke over something like this.
>
>
>
> > > Thanks, but, I didn't even think Desoxyn was still legal (not that you can't get methamphetamine on every street corner anyway, though). Pot wont do for me, gives me panic attacks, very aversive. Celexa probably sucks since it's an SSRI or close enough anyway. Actually, I take both Klonopin and Neurontin but they turn my brain to mush. Wellbutrin is good at reversing that but it makes me twitch. Anyway, I was just wondering. I am looking for THE PERFECT DRUG or a combination of adequate ones. Maybe someday.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > I have been reading some vague observations about poor dopaminergic function in SP and a corelation between introversion and low dopamine levels but I can't find anything to really sink my teeth into. Would this mean stimulants would be helpful for SP (sorry if I'm a hundred years late on this, maybe I am).
> > > >
> > > > Yes, Else, I'm afraid you are a hundred years late on this one. You seem to think that we're dealing with a science here. For every antidepressant listed in the PDR, you will see "'The mode of action of xxx is not well understood'. You can drop that "well". They don't even bother writing it down for herbs. We're not just talking dopamine or seratonin receptors here, we're talking D1, D2, D3, Dn, and S1, S2, Sn. The same for noradrenaline and the fifty other neurotransmitters that we know of, plus the hundred others that we don't know about. Ditto for which part of the brain we're talking about.. The name of The game is: If You Can Get It, And It Works, And The Good Effects Exceed the Bad Ones, Take It.
> > > >
> > > > What's good for Social Phobia? Some people use alcohol. Others use marijuana. Many use stimulants such as Ritalin, Adderall, Dexedrine, Desoxyn. Some use Valium, while others use Valium plus alcohol, and possibly toss in some marijuana. Celexa works for some people.
> > > > Others use Celexa plus Wellbutrin. Others swear, (at least for that evening) on Serzone and Neurontin, possibly with a little Desoxyn on the side. Opiates and their antagonists help many people. A lot of people just act the way they think they're supposed to act, and get by on that. You pay your money, or your insurance plan's money, and you take your chance. With a lot of homework and a good (open minded) physician, and some luck, the good days come to outnumber the bad ones. Here's to You, Kid!
> > > >
> > Desoxyn is still legal, but it seems that the media doesn't want
> > the public to understand that methamphetamine is not always
> > "the killer, Crystal Meth, which is destroying the brains of our youth".
> > It sells newspapers, spices up TV news, raises fear in the public,
> > stimulates the prison industry and the War on Drugs…
> > but I digress. We're all "looking for THE PERFECT DRUG or a combination of adequate ones."
> >
> > Elizabeth and I are trying buprenorphine, she for about 7 months I think, and me for about 2
> weeks.
> > It looks like neither of us has crashed yet, and I'm feeling pretty good.
Posted by JohnL on July 21, 2001, at 19:17:52
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia...Else » JohnL, posted by Andy123 on July 21, 2001, at 10:40:35
> > Hi Else,
> > Yes, APs do block dopamine function, but primarily at higher doses. At lower doses they actually stimulate dopamine function. I am referring to Zyprexa and Risperdal and Amisulpride.
>
> I have seen this in the literature concerning amisulpride, but not zyprexa and risperdal. Could you support this assertion with any references?Hi Andy,
Actually I cannot support this assertion with literature. I wish I could. I have searched high and low for the facts, but they aren't anywhere to be found. Other people here at this board though who are more knowledgeable than me have stated that though. Also, comments from people at this board on low doses point to a stimulating type of response, which is indicitive of increased dopamine activity. I know for sure that my 5mg dose of Zyprexa is stimulating. I tried 10mg once and it felt like it was undoing all the good stuff that the 5mg did. I could feel the dual action depending on which dose I took.I wish I had some literature. Sorry.
John
Posted by Else on July 21, 2001, at 19:54:14
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia...Else, posted by JohnL on July 21, 2001, at 9:38:48
Yes but don't they also act on serotonine? I HATE SSRIs and frankly every serotoninergic drug I've taken in my life has been a fiasco and that includes pot, Zoloft, Effexor, Desyrel, Ecstasy and Prozac. The only one I did OK on was LSD but it's not really a workable option for everyday life.
> Hi Else,
> Yes, APs do block dopamine function, but primarily at higher doses. At lower doses they actually stimulate dopamine function. I am referring to Zyprexa and Risperdal and Amisulpride. All the others do indeed block dopamine. But then again, a lot of weird emotions including depression can be caused by excess dopamine. That's why they call it 'chemical imbalance'. Chemical imbalance can be too much as well as too little. Restoring the correct balance is the goal, but sometimes we don't know ahead of time whether we need to increase it or decrease it. We always tend to think in terms of increasing it, but that is not always the case. Excesses are just as bad as deficiencies. Back to the APs though, the newer ones are sort-of dual action. They work differently at low doses than they do at high doses. There is generally very little risk of TD, Parkinsons, or other weird things at low doses. Usually those kinds of things occur with people taking heavy duty doses.
> John
>
> > Hi John
> > I agree with you about SSRIs doing nothing but numbing emotions but I'm surprised that an antipsychotic would increase dopamine function. Aren't APs suppose to block dopamine receptors and decrese dopamine function? If not then why do they cause Parkinsonism. Unless new APs are completely different, but the warnings in the PDR, CPS and the like are the same about EPS and TD (except for clozaril but as you must know it causes a different set of severe problems in some people). I don't think Adrafinil is available in Canada (nothing good is). I have my sights set on Ritalin or Parnate but it might be years until my doctor aquiesces.
> > Thank you for the input
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > I think (just my opinion) that dopamine is indeed a major player in social phobia. Usually SSRIs are prescribed for social phobia. I think the reason they can work is because they merely numb emotions.
> > >
> > > I was on a European drug called Amisulpride for quite a while. It is an antipsychotic that only increases dopamine function. It has no effect on anything else. When I was on it I noticed my shyness went away, I became more talkative, comfortable around people, confident, etc.
> > >
> > > Since then my treatment has evolved into Prozac+Zyprexa+Adrafinil. Zyprexa sort-of replaces Amisulpride, and sort-of does the same thing, while Adrafinil helps even more with the social phobia thing. Even normal people who take Adrafinil can notice an increase in socialability and they become more talkative, more outgoing, and more comfortable in a crowd. Prozac is in the mix because I like a mildly stimulating antidepressant, and it just happens to combine super with Zyprexa and/or Adrafinil.
> > >
> > > Just my random thoughts. Hope something here is helpful.
> > > John
Posted by JackD on July 22, 2001, at 5:49:38
In reply to Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by Else on July 20, 2001, at 17:14:22
I haven't read any of the responses to your post, so forgive me if I'm being repetitive (I'm too tired now to read through them all). I too have found significant dopamine function in SP related problems; especially from tinkering with my own brain. Now, I have ADD, and that is usually from a lack of Dopamine among other things, and that basically makes your brain constantly seek stimuli, such as from day-dreaming or hyperactivity (which can manifest itself as introversion). When I take (abuse... sigh...) Ritalin, it makes me MUCH more confident and social.
Here's my very superficial narrow rundown:
Serotonin: Affects other neurotransmitter systems by sending "chill out!" messages, err..., disinhibiting messages. Makes me feel fearless and less emotional. Also increases desire to be sociable; I call it the "touchy-feely" neurotransmitter.
Dopamine: Enhances/Magnifies behavior; ticks, habits, etc are worsened. General behavior and behavioral traits magnified. Affects drive, work capacity, and DEFINITELY confidence. In high doses in itself, leads to separation from friends (no need for them!, or so you feel), selfishness, and anger (as I said it magnifies behavior); I call it the "selfish" neurotransmitter.
Norepinepherine: Hmmmmm....... haven't been able to discriminate it's unique effects. Supposedly affects ability to handle stress, motivation, and generally affecsts (enhances?) all the other neurotransmitters.
GABA: Numbs the mind. Dims the lights. Takes the edge off. Disinhibiting. Similar to being in a slightly dumbed down alcoholic stupor. Great for anxiety. With me, the poor memory and any negative cognitive side effects were soon overcome or I learned to handle them accordingly (Like an alcoholic, they still feel drunk and nice for the most part when they're drunk, yet many learn how to think "sober" while drunk... some to the point you won't even know when they're intoxicated).
Well, hope that helps. Remember, this is just from my experience. Oh, so back to the point... I think the reason many people that are SP drink, such as myself, is that it not only affects GABA and Seratonin, (as well as Opiods but just forget that for arguments sake) it also raises dopamine levels significantly. That's a perfect combo for SP's; disinhibition, less fear, more social desire, confidence!
Posted by Else on July 22, 2001, at 9:17:38
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by JackD on July 22, 2001, at 5:49:38
Yeah I agree Jack. I once seriously comsidered forcing myself into alcoholism but I don't tolerate alcohol very well. And alcohol on your breath is not good for socializing outside of bars and parties. People tend not to take you seriously at best, and for a boozer at worst.
I know all about dopamine. I've done cocaine more than a few times (it's a heck of a lot stronger than Ritalin, I think). Anyway, it made me feel normal (when I took it with alcohol), but after a while it only made me angry and hostile towards everyone(especially when I skipped the booze which I had to because I was on Depakote,long story). Of course, cocaine is not the ideal psychiatric drug, even Freud figured out that much. But I think I would do ok on a mild , long-acting stimulant, combined with the Klonopin I already take to decrease anxiety. It would be perfect. Of course, my pharmacist would give me one of those looks, but fuck her. I am pretty sure of this because I have never FUNCTIONNED better then when I was on that Parnate/Valium combo last year and Parnate acts a bit like an amphetamine at first.Serotonin is weird. I have a theory about it, maybe I'm completely wrong but it's based on my own personnal experience. It basically goes: Pot is the opposite of Prozac. It induces in me all the syndromes SSRIs are supposed to cure (OCD, Bulimia, Panic Attacks, Extreme Anxiety...). But since pot stimulates serotonin release (or so it would appear), then SSRIs must decrease serotonin levels to lower anxiety-related symptoms somehow. It does so by obsure means but I've read that high serotonin levels were associated with high anxiety, not well-being. I've read this essay by a doctor who thinks SSRIs are "mood-buffers", not ADs and that they mostly prevent depressed patients with an "emotional safety net", assures them things will be OK (read the essay, I'm explaining it badly). It may be more complicated than that but it would explain why melancholics don't do so well on these and do better on TCAs. Does Prozac wear out serotoninergic neurons? Am I completely wrong? Am I ten years late? I need to look this up but thank you for "piquing" my curiosity. (french word, never mind).
Here is the URL, and BTW, everything else written by this doctor is fascinating.
http://www.hedweb.com/bgcharlton/psychhuman.html
> I haven't read any of the responses to your post, so forgive me if I'm being repetitive (I'm too tired now to read through them all). I too have found significant dopamine function in SP related problems; especially from tinkering with my own brain. Now, I have ADD, and that is usually from a lack of Dopamine among other things, and that basically makes your brain constantly seek stimuli, such as from day-dreaming or hyperactivity (which can manifest itself as introversion). When I take (abuse... sigh...) Ritalin, it makes me MUCH more confident and social.
>
> Here's my very superficial narrow rundown:
>
> Serotonin: Affects other neurotransmitter systems by sending "chill out!" messages, err..., disinhibiting messages. Makes me feel fearless and less emotional. Also increases desire to be sociable; I call it the "touchy-feely" neurotransmitter.
>
> Dopamine: Enhances/Magnifies behavior; ticks, habits, etc are worsened. General behavior and behavioral traits magnified. Affects drive, work capacity, and DEFINITELY confidence. In high doses in itself, leads to separation from friends (no need for them!, or so you feel), selfishness, and anger (as I said it magnifies behavior); I call it the "selfish" neurotransmitter.
>
> Norepinepherine: Hmmmmm....... haven't been able to discriminate it's unique effects. Supposedly affects ability to handle stress, motivation, and generally affecsts (enhances?) all the other neurotransmitters.
>
> GABA: Numbs the mind. Dims the lights. Takes the edge off. Disinhibiting. Similar to being in a slightly dumbed down alcoholic stupor. Great for anxiety. With me, the poor memory and any negative cognitive side effects were soon overcome or I learned to handle them accordingly (Like an alcoholic, they still feel drunk and nice for the most part when they're drunk, yet many learn how to think "sober" while drunk... some to the point you won't even know when they're intoxicated).
>
> Well, hope that helps. Remember, this is just from my experience. Oh, so back to the point... I think the reason many people that are SP drink, such as myself, is that it not only affects GABA and Seratonin, (as well as Opiods but just forget that for arguments sake) it also raises dopamine levels significantly. That's a perfect combo for SP's; disinhibition, less fear, more social desire, confidence!
Posted by Mitch on July 22, 2001, at 12:54:14
In reply to Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by Else on July 20, 2001, at 17:14:22
I have SP and bipolar. From all my drug experiences and their effect on SP I would agree that meds that boost dopamine do help with SP, but they only seem to help "one-side" of the SP. That is, SP can or is a two-fold problem. You fear social situations (avoidance) and possibly you aren't *interested* in them either (no desire to *approach*). I have troubles with both of these (esp. when depressed).
The dopamine boost helps with interest-that is you WANT to do things and be around other people, but *activating* meds that boost DA like Adderall/Wellbutrin i.e., can make you MORE panicky (which can worsen *avoidance*). I found that low-dose Adderall combined with a low-dose atypical antipsychotic (in my case Risperdal and then Seroquel) worked rather well, but then you run the risk of tardive dyskinesia, and I got dystonia from Risperdal.
I wonder if a combination of Adderall (to increase approach) with Klonopin (to reduce avoidance) would be workable?? I have never been on those two simultaneously. Both are controlled substances-I am sure you would get a lot of raised eyebrows from pharmacists with that combo.
> I have been reading some vague observations about poor dopaminergic function in SP and a corelation between introversion and low dopamine levels but I can't find anything to really sink my teeth into. Would this mean stimulants would be helpful for SP (sorry if I'm a hundred years late on this, maybe I am).
Posted by Else on July 22, 2001, at 16:03:21
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » Else, posted by Mitch on July 22, 2001, at 12:54:14
I don't see myself as unsociable really. In fact, most of the time I HATE being alone and I don't need a drug to make me enjoy other people's company. The main problem, as I see it, is inhibition (at least in my case). I am chronically inhibited and this goes for decision-making and social behavior. It takes me forever to make up my mind about the most unsignficant things because I worry so much (I also have GAD). When applied to social behavior, this inhibition translates into social phobia (for example; trying to figure out the EXACT right thing to say and then worrying that it was a bad idea afterwards). It's like, when you're manic (I've been hypomanic), decision making is a snap but when you're depressed deciding whether you want 1 or 2 creams in your coffee is difficult. It's the same thing for me except I don't really feel depressed. Or maybe I've been feeling this way for so long I don't interpret this as depression. But I picture some sort of decision-making aptitude continuum, where at one end you are paralysed by doubt and incapable of even getting out of bed (psychological akinisia, the link to Parkinson's is weak but interesting) and at the other, you do a lot of stupid things because every idea you get seems brilliant (as is the case in psychotic mania). Both stimulants and sedatives (including alcohol) have this dishinibitory effect which is what I need. I find the two drug types complete rather than antagonize each other.
The tranquilizers help with the anxiety caused by the stimulants and the stimulants help with the cognitive dullness produced by the tranquilizers. Of course, any anti-drug ayatollah will tell you that's the worst possible combination and leads to ADDICTION. I contend it's the best. There used to be this drug in the 60's called Dexamyl which was a Dexedrine/Amytal combo. Switch the Amytal to something less lethal like say Valium or Klonopin and were on to something. The pharmaceutical companies have known this a long time but they are such good corporate citizens (ahem), they would never produce another drug like this one. But a long-acting drug like this one is what a lot of people need. It has been shown that people with SP have lowered dopamine levels when compared to normals. Why not use anti-parkinsonnian drugs? I know some doctors already do. I hope word gets around.> I have SP and bipolar. From all my drug experiences and their effect on SP I would agree that meds that boost dopamine do help with SP, but they only seem to help "one-side" of the SP. That is, SP can or is a two-fold problem. You fear social situations (avoidance) and possibly you aren't *interested* in them either (no desire to *approach*). I have troubles with both of these (esp. when depressed).
>
> The dopamine boost helps with interest-that is you WANT to do things and be around other people, but *activating* meds that boost DA like Adderall/Wellbutrin i.e., can make you MORE panicky (which can worsen *avoidance*). I found that low-dose Adderall combined with a low-dose atypical antipsychotic (in my case Risperdal and then Seroquel) worked rather well, but then you run the risk of tardive dyskinesia, and I got dystonia from Risperdal.
>
> I wonder if a combination of Adderall (to increase approach) with Klonopin (to reduce avoidance) would be workable?? I have never been on those two simultaneously. Both are controlled substances-I am sure you would get a lot of raised eyebrows from pharmacists with that combo.
>
> > I have been reading some vague observations about poor dopaminergic function in SP and a corelation between introversion and low dopamine levels but I can't find anything to really sink my teeth into. Would this mean stimulants would be helpful for SP (sorry if I'm a hundred years late on this, maybe I am).
Posted by Mitch on July 22, 2001, at 17:38:01
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » Mitch, posted by Else on July 22, 2001, at 16:03:21
Well, I do know that Adderall reduced my mood cycling and prevented major depression. Klonopin works the best for SP of anything I have taken (and as far as inhibition as well). Another combo that might get close to that would be Klonopin+Selegeline (the selegiline breaks down into methedrine and is used for Parkinsons's).
The closest thing without involving a controlled substance would probably be Neurontin+Wellbutrin or something akin to that (or an MAOI).
You mentioned indecisiveness. I also have ADHD and ADHD meds like Adderall wiped out my indecisiveness. I just knew what I wanted and got it. I actually was quieter when I was around people on Adderall, but I wasn't *worrying* about what to say, it did a good job of eliminating "uncomfortable silences". I was into games big time. "Hell with small talk-let's play poker!" was a typical response.
As long as I am out of bad depression I WANT to be around others, too. It just REALLY sucks when you are inhibited AND you don't want any company as well.
> I don't see myself as unsociable really. In fact, most of the time I HATE being alone and I don't need a drug to make me enjoy other people's company. The main problem, as I see it, is inhibition (at least in my case). I am chronically inhibited and this goes for decision-making and social behavior. It takes me forever to make up my mind about the most unsignficant things because I worry so much (I also have GAD). When applied to social behavior, this inhibition translates into social phobia (for example; trying to figure out the EXACT right thing to say and then worrying that it was a bad idea afterwards). It's like, when you're manic (I've been hypomanic), decision making is a snap but when you're depressed deciding whether you want 1 or 2 creams in your coffee is difficult. It's the same thing for me except I don't really feel depressed. Or maybe I've been feeling this way for so long I don't interpret this as depression. But I picture some sort of decision-making aptitude continuum, where at one end you are paralysed by doubt and incapable of even getting out of bed (psychological akinisia, the link to Parkinson's is weak but interesting) and at the other, you do a lot of stupid things because every idea you get seems brilliant (as is the case in psychotic mania). Both stimulants and sedatives (including alcohol) have this dishinibitory effect which is what I need. I find the two drug types complete rather than antagonize each other.
> The tranquilizers help with the anxiety caused by the stimulants and the stimulants help with the cognitive dullness produced by the tranquilizers. Of course, any anti-drug ayatollah will tell you that's the worst possible combination and leads to ADDICTION. I contend it's the best. There used to be this drug in the 60's called Dexamyl which was a Dexedrine/Amytal combo. Switch the Amytal to something less lethal like say Valium or Klonopin and were on to something. The pharmaceutical companies have known this a long time but they are such good corporate citizens (ahem), they would never produce another drug like this one. But a long-acting drug like this one is what a lot of people need. It has been shown that people with SP have lowered dopamine levels when compared to normals. Why not use anti-parkinsonnian drugs? I know some doctors already do. I hope word gets around.
Posted by Neal on July 22, 2001, at 19:11:49
In reply to Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by Else on July 20, 2001, at 17:14:22
I've been told by my pdoc and read here and in several books that as far as AD's for Social Phobia, Nardil is the "gold standard" Anyone care to agree or disagree?
-Neal
Posted by Mitch on July 22, 2001, at 22:48:45
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by Neal on July 22, 2001, at 19:11:49
Neal,
I have also heard that MAOI+clonazepam is the "ideal" treatment combo (talking efficacy here-not safety or side effect issues). But, from what I have been told Parnate (tranylcypromine) was the "gold standard" not Nardil (phenelzine), because Parnate had more to do with dopamine enhancement, although I have heard that Nardil enhances whole-brain GABA functioning.
> I've been told by my pdoc and read here and in several books that as far as AD's for Social Phobia, Nardil is the "gold standard" Anyone care to agree or disagree?
>
> -Neal
Posted by Else on July 23, 2001, at 5:55:49
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » Else, posted by Mitch on July 22, 2001, at 17:38:01
> Well, I do know that Adderall reduced my mood cycling and prevented major depression. Klonopin works the best for SP of anything I have taken (and as far as inhibition as well). Another combo that might get close to that would be Klonopin+Selegeline (the selegiline breaks down into methedrine and is used for Parkinsons's).
Selegiline sounds good and relatively innocuous. My doctor might not be opposed to it. As for Klonopin, I'm already on it and it's great. I feel like a different person. I can chit chat with strangers at the grocery store, I can return a meal if I'm not satisfied. A dopamine agonist would improve on that though. Parnate did and it stimulates dopamine to some extent. Unfortunately Adderall is not availlable in Canada but Dexedrine is. It probably has a similar effect.
> The closest thing without involving a controlled substance would probably be Neurontin+Wellbutrin or something akin to that (or an MAOI).
I'm already on Neurontin. It doesn't do much but I do think it stabilizes my mood and this is the kind of effect that is hard to detect unless you stop taking the drug and go beserk. I also take Wellbutrin but it cause some annoying neurological side-effects I find worrisome (twitching, tremors, stifness in the back of my neck). One GP said these were extra-pyramidal effects and that scared the hell out of me. Now I only take 150mg a day because it does help me with my ADD or pseudo-ADD.
> You mentioned indecisiveness. I also have ADHD and ADHD meds like Adderall wiped out my indecisiveness. I just knew what I wanted and got it. I actually was quieter when I was around people on Adderall, but I wasn't *worrying* about what to say, it did a good job of eliminating "uncomfortable silences". I was into games big time. "Hell with small talk-let's play poker!" was a typical response.
Klonopin does this too but the best I've tried for this was Parnate. It made me so fluent. It's like all these words I stumbled upon for years just magically came out. My friends said I was like a used-car salesman on this which I'm not sure is a compliment but it goes to show it made me a great deal more confident. It also made me able to tolerate silence *because* I was so confident.> As long as I am out of bad depression I WANT to be around others, too. It just REALLY sucks when you are inhibited AND you don't want any company as well.
Well, I don't now. To me the two are completely opposite, it seems. The only times I don't want company is when I become obsessive about something (a book, a *website*, a cd, whatever) and don't want to be bothered OR when I get a bit high on myself (or drugs) and feel superior to my friends and familly and want nothing to do with these *losers*. I don't do drugs anymore though, not cocaine anyway. But that brings up an unfortunnate side effect of stimulants which is egotism and possibly hostility (not good for socializing. Of course cocaine is not a good example. It's one of the worst drugs out there as far as EVERYTHING goes except maybe intense euphoria.Of course there are those times when I feel too low and pathetic to be seen in public but that's a little different.
> > I don't see myself as unsociable really. In fact, most of the time I HATE being alone and I don't need a drug to make me enjoy other people's company. The main problem, as I see it, is inhibition (at least in my case). I am chronically inhibited and this goes for decision-making and social behavior. It takes me forever to make up my mind about the most unsignficant things because I worry so much (I also have GAD). When applied to social behavior, this inhibition translates into social phobia (for example; trying to figure out the EXACT right thing to say and then worrying that it was a bad idea afterwards). It's like, when you're manic (I've been hypomanic), decision making is a snap but when you're depressed deciding whether you want 1 or 2 creams in your coffee is difficult. It's the same thing for me except I don't really feel depressed. Or maybe I've been feeling this way for so long I don't interpret this as depression. But I picture some sort of decision-making aptitude continuum, where at one end you are paralysed by doubt and incapable of even getting out of bed (psychological akinisia, the link to Parkinson's is weak but interesting) and at the other, you do a lot of stupid things because every idea you get seems brilliant (as is the case in psychotic mania). Both stimulants and sedatives (including alcohol) have this dishinibitory effect which is what I need. I find the two drug types complete rather than antagonize each other.
> > The tranquilizers help with the anxiety caused by the stimulants and the stimulants help with the cognitive dullness produced by the tranquilizers. Of course, any anti-drug ayatollah will tell you that's the worst possible combination and leads to ADDICTION. I contend it's the best. There used to be this drug in the 60's called Dexamyl which was a Dexedrine/Amytal combo. Switch the Amytal to something less lethal like say Valium or Klonopin and were on to something. The pharmaceutical companies have known this a long time but they are such good corporate citizens (ahem), they would never produce another drug like this one. But a long-acting drug like this one is what a lot of people need. It has been shown that people with SP have lowered dopamine levels when compared to normals. Why not use anti-parkinsonnian drugs? I know some doctors already do. I hope word gets around.
Posted by jojo on July 23, 2001, at 13:26:36
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia » Mitch, posted by Else on July 23, 2001, at 5:55:49
After seeing the movie "Ghost Dog" (which is to be taken seriously, not merely an action movie), I bought the book "Hagakure, The Book of the Samurai", which is the philosophical basis of the film. I find that a quotation from it often helps me: 'If discrimination is long, it will spoil'... 'One should make his decision within the space of seven breaths'. Obviously it doesn't matter a hell of a lot if you put one or two creams in your coffee. It is the Big decisions that should be made in seven breaths. You may find that the results are just as satisfactory, and the pain a lot less.
Posted by Mitch on July 23, 2001, at 15:32:13
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by jojo on July 23, 2001, at 13:26:36
Jojo,
I kind of like that! If you catch yourself ruminating over something that can't be helped NOW or something that doesn't require any real decision anyway (which is troubling you), then you can just PARK IT SOMEWHERE ELSE, and move on to something worthwhile. Sounds like CBT. I like *practical* examples of ways to help. I get so tired of theorizing from pdocs. I just want to yell with a megaphone sometimes: OK, IS THERE SOMETHING *SPECIFIC* THAT I CAN DO *HERE AND NOW* (or possibly tomorrow!), ...please.
Mitch
> After seeing the movie "Ghost Dog" (which is to be taken seriously, not merely an action movie), I bought the book "Hagakure, The Book of the Samurai", which is the philosophical basis of the film. I find that a quotation from it often helps me: 'If discrimination is long, it will spoil'... 'One should make his decision within the space of seven breaths'. Obviously it doesn't matter a hell of a lot if you put one or two creams in your coffee. It is the Big decisions that should be made in seven breaths. You may find that the results are just as satisfactory, and the pain a lot less.
Posted by Else on July 23, 2001, at 18:03:26
In reply to Re: Dopamine function in Social Phobia, posted by jojo on July 23, 2001, at 13:26:36
Good advice but sometimes hard to follow when you're insane.
> After seeing the movie "Ghost Dog" (which is to be taken seriously, not merely an action movie), I bought the book "Hagakure, The Book of the Samurai", which is the philosophical basis of the film. I find that a quotation from it often helps me: 'If discrimination is long, it will spoil'... 'One should make his decision within the space of seven breaths'. Obviously it doesn't matter a hell of a lot if you put one or two creams in your coffee. It is the Big decisions that should be made in seven breaths. You may find that the results are just as satisfactory, and the pain a lot less.
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