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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jojo on July 20, 2001, at 14:06:39
Is it possible to effectively practice Psychiatry or Clinical Psychology without browsing through Psychobabble for at least half an hour. I have recommended it to at least three professionals, but I doubt that any of them "had the time", or the interest, to look at it. One of them, a Psychoanalyst, actually laughed and said 'Did I think that her patients were not telling her everything'. Of another Psychoanalyst, who had a similar attitude, I asked "How many patients have said to you "I just farted"? He said one or two. If, out of the hundreds of patients he has seen, only two "admitted" to having just passed wind, then it is obvious that they are not saying all the thoughts that are passing through their minds.
These are not "students of the mind", with the intellectual curiosity to see what patients are saying "in
private": These are DOCTORS (and damn proud of it), who practice what they were taught, and are not interested in learning from their patients.
Posted by AKC on July 20, 2001, at 18:00:36
In reply to Psychiatry Without Exposure to Psychobabble?, posted by jojo on July 20, 2001, at 14:06:39
I haven't even been able to get the other members in my group therapy group to look at this yet! As far as my therapist goes (who is also an RN and keeps up as best possible with meds and such), for me it is no big deal - she sees lots of patients, reads lots of literature, talks to lots of other practioners, and on and on and on. This is my experience, and I share about it almost weekly - I don't think I have asked her to look at it - nor will I - for if she didn't - because of a lack of time or non-interest - I would be horribly disappointed. To me, this is my domain - not hers.
AKC
Posted by Else on July 20, 2001, at 20:22:00
In reply to Psychiatry Without Exposure to Psychobabble?, posted by jojo on July 20, 2001, at 14:06:39
>One of them, a Psychoanalyst, actually laughed and said 'Did I think that her patients were not telling her everything'
Did you laugh back. I tell my doctor maybe 5% of what I think. He's too good-looking to go into some of what I REALLY think. Besides, I don't want to make him blush.
> Is it possible to effectively practice Psychiatry or Clinical Psychology without browsing through Psychobabble for at least half an hour. I have recommended it to at least three professionals, but I doubt that any of them "had the time", or the interest, to look at it. One of them, a Psychoanalyst, actually laughed and said 'Did I think that her patients were not telling her everything'. Of another Psychoanalyst, who had a similar attitude, I asked "How many patients have said to you "I just farted"? He said one or two. If, out of the hundreds of patients he has seen, only two "admitted" to having just passed wind, then it is obvious that they are not saying all the thoughts that are passing through their minds.
> These are not "students of the mind", with the intellectual curiosity to see what patients are saying "in
> private": These are DOCTORS (and damn proud of it), who practice what they were taught, and are not interested in learning from their patients.
Posted by Neal on July 21, 2001, at 0:28:21
In reply to Psychiatry Without Exposure to Psychobabble?, posted by jojo on July 20, 2001, at 14:06:39
Psychobabble is something new in the world. It allows us to sit around the campfire and discuss issues related to our meds - behind our pdocs back! Most of them are going to poo-poo it because THEY want to be our only source of info regarding meds. The idea that patients are getting together to discuss meds must be threatening to a lot of them.
Posted by jojo on July 21, 2001, at 0:50:17
In reply to Re: Psychiatry Without Exposure to Psychobabble?, posted by Else on July 20, 2001, at 20:22:00
> >One of them, a Psychoanalyst, actually laughed and said 'Did I think that her patients were not telling her everything'
>
>
>
> Did you laugh back. I tell my doctor maybe 5% of what I think. He's too good-looking to go into some of what I REALLY think. Besides, I don't want to make him blush.
>
>
> > Is it possible to effectively practice Psychiatry or Clinical Psychology without browsing through Psychobabble for at least half an hour. I have recommended it to at least three professionals, but I doubt that any of them "had the time", or the interest, to look at it. One of them, a Psychoanalyst, actually laughed and said 'Did I think that her patients were not telling her everything'. Of another Psychoanalyst, who had a similar attitude, I asked "How many patients have said to you "I just farted"? He said one or two. If, out of the hundreds of patients he has seen, only two "admitted" to having just passed wind, then it is obvious that they are not saying all the thoughts that are passing through their minds.
> > These are not "students of the mind", with the intellectual curiosity to see what patients are saying "in
> > private": These are DOCTORS (and damn proud of it), who practice what they were taught, and are not interested in learning from their patients.No. Actually, I was extremely disappointed and dumbfounded. This is the same MD, Psychiatrist, Certified Psychoanalyst (American Psychoanalytic Association) , who, when after 22 years of somewhat intimate knowledge of me, did not bother to answer my email informing her that I had found a new Psychiatrist. I had moved from Michigan to Oklahoma, and had developed severe insomnia, so I used that in telling her that I had found another Psychiatrist. I offered to send her a critique of my reaction to her therapy, if she requested it. I told her that it might not be her favorite reading. She never answered. She will never find out what happens to the patients that she is unable to help.
After a few visits, my new therapist told me one or two sentences about herself-more than I knew after 22 years with the other one-so that I could understand my difficulty in getting in touch with her.
She has chosen a difficult path in her personal life involving an adoption, and I see that she has a full plate. The next time that I saw her, I told her that I thought that she had just been venting some anger, due to her rushed life, but if she had told me those few things as a therapeutic maneuver, it was brilliant. In two sentences, it provided me an armature around which I could construct my image of her (Freud actually had his patients for Sunday lunches some times during the year. The NeoFreudians think it's best if you know as little as possible about them). In the critique that she never requested, I had told her that I recently heard a Psychoanalyst from Florida say, during an interview on NPR, that the most important part of Psychotherapy is the relationship between the patient and the Analyst (I think I would rather make that Patient. I think it's necessary for the Psychiatrist to learn from his Patients if he is going to get any better in his methods of treatment), and that, quite frankly, our relationship sucked-and not to take that as a Freudian interpretation of a successful "mother transference". I understand that as the DOCTOR, she had nothing to learn from her patients. She was the EXPERT, and insisted on being in charge.So, the short answer is; no.
Regarding you, why should you pay him to avoid his being embarrassed (your fantasy), or limit what you say because he's so good looking. Does he blush a little when you get near that outer 5%, and your afraid of loosing that? You may enjoy his embarrassment as you increase it to 40 or 50%. If he actually can't deal with it, maybe he should be paying you for his training. Unless, of course, you're using him as a source of drugs, which can be just as valid as psychotherapy if all one has is a vulnerable therapist.
Posted by Else on July 21, 2001, at 6:43:40
In reply to Re: Psychiatry Without Exposure to Psychobabble?, posted by jojo on July 21, 2001, at 0:50:17
Look, I may have been exagerating a little. I tell him more than 5% but he's a psychopharmacologist and doesn't really care to know how I feel about my mother. The main problem I have is discussing the "sexual side effects" of some drugs he prescribes. I know that's childish but it really embarasses me so I try to come up with another explanation for why I don't like the Zoloft or the Neurontin.
But my post was tongue-in-cheek, I must specify. I just thought your doctor's comment was so naive I couldn't believe it. Of course patients don't tell their doctors everything. A lot of people (like me) are embarassed talking about sexual problems, especially to an attractive person of the opposite sex. What can I say. I think he's competent and I like him but yes, I do use him to get drugs, that's his job.
I used to have a therapist who did not prescribe drugs and was never able to really tell her everything I felt. She was nice but somewhat cold and made me uncomfortable. She never mentionned anything about herself and even weirder (this is hard to explain) but she used the polite "vous" form (in french)in adressing me rather than the less formal "tu". Here it's customary for people who are more or less the same age to use "tu" (you) when addressing each other. This just created even more distance between us. It's hard to explain to a speaker of english but, I don't know, hopefully you took french in high school.
I saw another doctor who, on the contrary had that sort of personnality that makes you want to recount your life story the first time you see them. She told me about her eating disorders while she was in med school (I didn't ask, believe me, her ADD, told me she thought she had a lot of hope for me. It wasn't like the whole conversation was centered around her but she shared some of her experiences and therapy felt like a real conversation. And I felt much more comfortable confiding in her. Unfortunnately, she moved to another city. But this was so much better then feeling like I'm revealling my inner-most secrets to some distant shrink who sits on a pedestal and never utters a word. How are you supposed to confide in someone who never even speaks to you ? That doesn't work for me. And my doctor doesn't cost anything, we have national health insurance. The blushing thing was a joke. I would most certainly be the one to blush and maybe I would pass out. I used to have this boring, grey, incompetent shrink I hated in the hospital and I just loved telling him these stories to try and embarass him but I'm not sure it worked. As for my present doctor, well, he seems like such a picture of mental health sometimes it gets on my nerves. Nothing would work. But he's more of a scientist than a therapist though. I'm looking for a psychologist at the moment. One I can afford.> > >One of them, a Psychoanalyst, actually laughed and said 'Did I think that her patients were not telling her everything'
> >
> >
> >
> > Did you laugh back. I tell my doctor maybe 5% of what I think. He's too good-looking to go into some of what I REALLY think. Besides, I don't want to make him blush.
> >
> >
> > > Is it possible to effectively practice Psychiatry or Clinical Psychology without browsing through Psychobabble for at least half an hour. I have recommended it to at least three professionals, but I doubt that any of them "had the time", or the interest, to look at it. One of them, a Psychoanalyst, actually laughed and said 'Did I think that her patients were not telling her everything'. Of another Psychoanalyst, who had a similar attitude, I asked "How many patients have said to you "I just farted"? He said one or two. If, out of the hundreds of patients he has seen, only two "admitted" to having just passed wind, then it is obvious that they are not saying all the thoughts that are passing through their minds.
> > > These are not "students of the mind", with the intellectual curiosity to see what patients are saying "in
> > > private": These are DOCTORS (and damn proud of it), who practice what they were taught, and are not interested in learning from their patients.
>
> No. Actually, I was extremely disappointed and dumbfounded. This is the same MD, Psychiatrist, Certified Psychoanalyst (American Psychoanalytic Association) , who, when after 22 years of somewhat intimate knowledge of me, did not bother to answer my email informing her that I had found a new Psychiatrist. I had moved from Michigan to Oklahoma, and had developed severe insomnia, so I used that in telling her that I had found another Psychiatrist. I offered to send her a critique of my reaction to her therapy, if she requested it. I told her that it might not be her favorite reading. She never answered. She will never find out what happens to the patients that she is unable to help.
> After a few visits, my new therapist told me one or two sentences about herself-more than I knew after 22 years with the other one-so that I could understand my difficulty in getting in touch with her.
> She has chosen a difficult path in her personal life involving an adoption, and I see that she has a full plate. The next time that I saw her, I told her that I thought that she had just been venting some anger, due to her rushed life, but if she had told me those few things as a therapeutic maneuver, it was brilliant. In two sentences, it provided me an armature around which I could construct my image of her (Freud actually had his patients for Sunday lunches some times during the year. The NeoFreudians think it's best if you know as little as possible about them). In the critique that she never requested, I had told her that I recently heard a Psychoanalyst from Florida say, during an interview on NPR, that the most important part of Psychotherapy is the relationship between the patient and the Analyst (I think I would rather make that Patient. I think it's necessary for the Psychiatrist to learn from his Patients if he is going to get any better in his methods of treatment), and that, quite frankly, our relationship sucked-and not to take that as a Freudian interpretation of a successful "mother transference". I understand that as the DOCTOR, she had nothing to learn from her patients. She was the EXPERT, and insisted on being in charge.
>
> So, the short answer is; no.
>
> Regarding you, why should you pay him to avoid his being embarrassed (your fantasy), or limit what you say because he's so good looking. Does he blush a little when you get near that outer 5%, and your afraid of loosing that? You may enjoy his embarrassment as you increase it to 40 or 50%. If he actually can't deal with it, maybe he should be paying you for his training. Unless, of course, you're using him as a source of drugs, which can be just as valid as psychotherapy if all one has is a vulnerable therapist.
Posted by sar on July 21, 2001, at 9:02:46
In reply to Re: Psychiatry Without Exposure to Psychobabble?, posted by Else on July 21, 2001, at 6:43:40
The blushing thing was a joke. I would most certainly be the one to blush and maybe I would pass out. I used to have this boring, grey, incompetent shrink I hated in the hospital and I just loved telling him these stories to try and embarass him but I'm not sure it worked. As for my present doctor, well, he seems like such a picture of mental health sometimes it gets on my nerves. Nothing would work.
else, you are funny!still gigglin,
sar
Posted by jojo on July 21, 2001, at 12:28:46
In reply to Re: Psychiatry Without Exposure to Psychobabble?, posted by Else on July 21, 2001, at 6:43:40
"she used the polite "vous" form (in French ) in addressing me rather
than the less formal "tu" "I had the same, or similar, experience with the one who never answered my good-bye email, with my critique offer. After 20 years she would return my telephone message with "This is Dr. X", and called me "Mr. Y". I vowed that I'd call her replacement by her first name, but I never did it. She calls me by my first name, which is fine with me, but I just speak to her, never using her first name or Dr. X" I may bring that up the next time that I see her.
"it really embarrasses me so I try to come up with
another explanation for why I don't like the Zoloft or the Neurontin"Of course that's your choice, but it does make the rest of us who suffer from sexual side effects seem like chronic complainers, have hypersensitivity to these drugs, or decreases the accepted incidence of sexual side effects of these drugs. Maybe that's why the first reports on Prozac only listed sexual difficulties at something like 3%, when actually it may be more like 75%. But that's ok, you keep your modesty, while the rest of us suffer from under reported sexual effects ; >)
BTW, there are claims that some drugs eliminate these effects (you'll find references on the Psychobabble board, or elsewhere), but I've never had success with them. I'm taking 240 mg/day of Gingko biloba and 16.2 mg of Yohimbine right now, but I still can't come. They say it may take several months for these drugs to work. I'm seeing an Endocrinologist next week
You didn't answer, but I'm curious. Even though you don't think it's relevant, did your current difficulties start when the good looking Psychopharmacologist went on vacation?
Posted by jojo on July 21, 2001, at 12:43:42
In reply to Re: Psychiatry Without Exposure to Psychobabble?, posted by Else on July 21, 2001, at 6:43:40
BTW, there is an FDA approved clitoral vacuum device available in the States by prescription, but I don't expect that you'll feel comfortable discussing this with him.
Posted by Else on July 21, 2001, at 19:28:05
In reply to Re: Psychiatry Without Exposure to Psychobabble? » Else, posted by sar on July 21, 2001, at 9:02:46
> The blushing thing was a joke. I would most certainly be the one to blush and maybe I would pass out. I used to have this boring, grey, incompetent shrink I hated in the hospital and I just loved telling him these stories to try and embarass him but I'm not sure it worked. As for my present doctor, well, he seems like such a picture of mental health sometimes it gets on my nerves. Nothing would work.
>
>
> else, you are funny!
>
> still gigglin,
> sarWell, O.K. I'll try to keep them coming.
Posted by Else on July 21, 2001, at 19:47:55
In reply to Re: Psychiatry Without Exposure to Psychobabble? » Else, posted by jojo on July 21, 2001, at 12:28:46
> You didn't answer, but I'm curious. Even though you don't think it's relevant, did your current difficulties start when the good looking Psychopharmacologist went on vacation?
>
>
>I did answer, right at the beginning. I said no because the trouble began before I found out on friday. Even so, it doesn't bug me that much because even when he's there I don't call him about problems (I don't want to be a bother, I'm so humble). The Klonopin makes me a bit more bold and assertive so I might do this more often. Look, I'm not obsessed with the good doctor (ok, maybe slightly, he bares a slight resemblance to Dr Kovac on ER) I only see him, once a month.
Look I wont take ALL the blame for the sexual side effects of ADs being under-reported but I always snicker when I read a study that claims Paxil or Zoloft or whatever was well-tolerated in clinical trials. If you're deeply depressed and take the drug during a clinical trial for 8 weeks, sex is obviously not a major issue, DUH! After a couple of months though it really starts to get on your nerves, you know. There's also the fact that I am single. If I had a BF, I would not hesitate to mention this. But given my current situation, what is he going to read into this? That me and my shower massage don't get along as well as we used to? That I spend my evenings in sports bars looking to get laid? Look I know it's stupid but I'm counting on guys and women who are in relationships to make this clear to doctors. They should just shut up about the well-tolerated BS. Here's my personnal fave: Benzodiazepines are a staple of anxiety disorder chemotherapy but cause (evil) addiction in about three people and therefore should be avoided. SSRI's (who put a mere 75% of users out of business) are a well-tolerated alternative and should be considered first-line therapy. That sounds about right. doesn't it. Pat Robertson would love it.
Posted by Else on July 21, 2001, at 19:48:55
In reply to Re: Psychiatry Without Exposure to Psychobabble? » Else, posted by jojo on July 21, 2001, at 12:43:42
That is a correct assumption.
> BTW, there is an FDA approved clitoral vacuum device available in the States by prescription, but I don't expect that you'll feel comfortable discussing this with him.
Posted by jojo on July 21, 2001, at 21:43:52
In reply to Re: Psychiatry Without Exposure to Psychobabble?, posted by Else on July 21, 2001, at 19:47:55
>
> > You didn't answer, but I'm curious. Even though you don't think it's relevant, did your current difficulties start when the good looking Psychopharmacologist went on vacation?
> >
> >
> >
>
> I did answer, right at the beginning. I said no because the trouble began before I found out on friday. Even so, it doesn't bug me that much because even when he's there I don't call him about problems (I don't want to be a bother, I'm so humble). The Klonopin makes me a bit more bold and assertive so I might do this more often. Look, I'm not obsessed with the good doctor (ok, maybe slightly, he bares a slight resemblance to Dr Kovac on ER) I only see him, once a month.
>
> Look I wont take ALL the blame for the sexual side effects of ADs being under-reported but I always snicker when I read a study that claims Paxil or Zoloft or whatever was well-tolerated in clinical trials. If you're deeply depressed and take the drug during a clinical trial for 8 weeks, sex is obviously not a major issue, DUH! After a couple of months though it really starts to get on your nerves, you know. There's also the fact that I am single. If I had a BF, I would not hesitate to mention this. But given my current situation, what is he going to read into this? That me and my shower massage don't get along as well as we used to? That I spend my evenings in sports bars looking to get laid? Look I know it's stupid but I'm counting on guys and women who are in relationships to make this clear to doctors. They should just shut up about the well-tolerated BS. Here's my personnal fave: Benzodiazepines are a staple of anxiety disorder chemotherapy but cause (evil) addiction in about three people and therefore should be avoided. SSRI's (who put a mere 75% of users out of business) are a well-tolerated alternative and should be considered first-line therapy. That sounds about right. doesn't it. Pat Robertson would love it.Even though I tend to believe that human communication is generally not possible, you made your point with some style. I enjoyed reading it, and it brightened my day. Thanks, Else.
Posted by Else on July 22, 2001, at 8:32:48
In reply to Re: Psychiatry Without Exposure to Psychobabble? » Else, posted by jojo on July 21, 2001, at 21:43:52
I'm glad to hear it. I try to make things as clear as I possibly can but that usually involves hyperbole in my case. Continue having a lovely day.
>
> Even though I tend to believe that human communication is generally not possible, you made your point with some style. I enjoyed reading it, and it brightened my day. Thanks, Else.
Posted by AKC on July 23, 2001, at 18:21:22
In reply to Psychiatry Without Exposure to Psychobabble?, posted by jojo on July 20, 2001, at 14:06:39
Now I have done it -- I saw my pdoc today. I am blessed with a pdoc who listens. She has let me have a lot of say in my treatment. And I have shared with her PB - of course today, she asked me for the website - after I shared here that I really didn't want my pdoc to see this - that this was for me and not for her! But wanted to share this with you jojo (and everyone) - there are pdocs who actually do listen and do want to learn! And lightening didn't even have to strike.
Posted by jojo on July 23, 2001, at 22:44:19
In reply to Re: Psychiatry Without Exposure to Psychobabble? » jojo, posted by AKC on July 23, 2001, at 18:21:22
> Now I have done it -- I saw my pdoc today. I am blessed with a pdoc who listens. She has let me have a lot of say in my treatment. And I have shared with her PB - of course today, she asked me for the website - after I shared here that I really didn't want my pdoc to see this - that this was for me and not for her! But wanted to share this with you jojo (and everyone) - there are pdocs who actually do listen and do want to learn! And lightening didn't even have to strike.
Good for you AKC, and if Dr.OfAKC should read this,
Welcome to the human race. I'm proud of what you have done. Listening
to patients is the first step toward becoming
a better clinician, and as you see here, that is something
we need desparately.
This is the end of the thread.
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