![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 33. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Bijou on July 15, 2001, at 15:26:53
Oh God please someone help me! I'm running out of ultram and I can't get anymore and I am freaking!!!! I'v been on them for 2 years and,no I don't have a doctor,plus I couldn't leave the house anyway to go to the doctor because my face is all breaking out and I'm panicked and itchy. I can't live right now without them,my life is CRAP!(not sure if you can cuss here?) I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. I'm a pessamist at heart and have been trying to find buffers my whole life to help soften the harsh,abrasive world! Ultram is THE drug for me.It makes me feel better and not tired and I can function in the world and not get so bothered by little things that happen everyday that would probably throw me into a well of depression if I didn't have them. What am I going to do?I'm already anxious about going thryu the withdrawls and the mental stuff which is worse for me than pain.By the way, I'm in Florida.If there's anyone here from Florida, Hi!
Posted by Elizabeth on July 17, 2001, at 0:01:58
In reply to Ultram withdrawl!, posted by Bijou on July 15, 2001, at 15:26:53
> Oh God please someone help me! I'm running out of ultram and I can't get anymore and I am freaking!!!! I'v been on them for 2 years and,no I don't have a doctor,plus I couldn't leave the house anyway to go to the doctor because my face is all breaking out and I'm panicked and itchy.
Ahh. I won't ask where you got the Ultram.
> I can't live right now without them,my life is CRAP!(not sure if you can cuss here?)
Not sure if "cr*p" counts.
> Ultram is THE drug for me.It makes me feel better and not tired and I can function in the world and not get so bothered by little things that happen everyday that would probably throw me into a well of depression if I didn't have them.
You are not alone.
> What am I going to do?I'm already anxious about going thryu the withdrawls and the mental stuff which is worse for me than pain.
How much Ultram have you been taking? Ultram w/d is generally mild relative to stronger drugs (morphine etc.).
> By the way, I'm in Florida.If there's anyone here from Florida, Hi!
Sorry, I'm up in the chilly northeast. (Oh wait, it's really hot here.)
-elizabeth
Posted by MB on July 17, 2001, at 13:35:23
In reply to Ultram withdrawl!, posted by Bijou on July 15, 2001, at 15:26:53
> Oh God please someone help me! I'm running out of ultram and I can't get anymore and I am freaking!!!! I'v been on them for 2 years and,no I don't have a doctor,plus I couldn't leave the house anyway to go to the doctor because my face is all breaking out and I'm panicked and itchy. I can't live right now without them,my life is CRAP!(not sure if you can cuss here?) I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. I'm a pessamist at heart and have been trying to find buffers my whole life to help soften the harsh,abrasive world! Ultram is THE drug for me.It makes me feel better and not tired and I can function in the world and not get so bothered by little things that happen everyday that would probably throw me into a well of depression if I didn't have them. What am I going to do?I'm already anxious about going thryu the withdrawls and the mental stuff which is worse for me than pain.By the way, I'm in Florida.If there's anyone here from Florida, Hi!
Hey Bijou,
Let me first say that I totally empathize with your situation and I am very sorry that you are in the situation that you are in. I used to medicate my mood/anxiety problems with painkillers also. Anyway, it sounds like you are stuck with facing withdrawal. Running out with no way to get more is a nightmare, for sure. Such an event led me to the use of non-prescription opiates to cope. I vehemently advise *against* taking that path...I really encourage you to get help in coping with this problem. I've never been dependent on Ultram. My drugs were codeine and morphine derivatives (drugs with slightly different, yet similar, mechanisms of action). Ultram is supposed to induce a less sever dependence. However, I don't doubt that you'd suffer some nasty withdrawals after two years of daily (was it daily?) Ultram use. Is there a methadone detox program where you live? That might help. If you take the methadone route, I would advise you to not choose the *maintenence* program (where they keep you on it for a long time). It may sound rosey (like a legal opiate juice-bar), but being veritably *chained* to a low-level government bureaucracy is a nighmare; imagine having to wait in line at the DMV every day at noon...when seven of the people in line with you have tuberculosis--yuck! Choose the detox program (a program where they taper you down relatively comfortably over a two week period).
There's also a blood pressure medicine called Clonadine that helps alleviate withdrawal symptoms, and it is not addictive (as far as I know).
Again, I don't know in which ways Ultram withdrawal differs from the withdrawals I experienced. Maybe someone with direct experience or more knowledge regarding the pharmacology of Ultram can advise you in ways more specific to that particular medication.
Posted by Kristi on July 18, 2001, at 0:36:58
In reply to Ultram withdrawl!, posted by Bijou on July 15, 2001, at 15:26:53
Hi,
I don't know that this will be of any help at all.... but I have been off and on Ultram for over a year now(only stop when my script runs out) and I have never felt any w/d like I have after stopping the typical AD's.
You'll be ok. My thoughts are with you....
> Oh God please someone help me! I'm running out of ultram and I can't get anymore and I am freaking!!!! I'v been on them for 2 years and,no I don't have a doctor,plus I couldn't leave the house anyway to go to the doctor because my face is all breaking out and I'm panicked and itchy. I can't live right now without them,my life is CRAP!(not sure if you can cuss here?) I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. I'm a pessamist at heart and have been trying to find buffers my whole life to help soften the harsh,abrasive world! Ultram is THE drug for me.It makes me feel better and not tired and I can function in the world and not get so bothered by little things that happen everyday that would probably throw me into a well of depression if I didn't have them. What am I going to do?I'm already anxious about going thryu the withdrawls and the mental stuff which is worse for me than pain.By the way, I'm in Florida.If there's anyone here from Florida, Hi!
Posted by Elizabeth on July 18, 2001, at 8:44:28
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawl! » Bijou, posted by MB on July 17, 2001, at 13:35:23
> My drugs were codeine and morphine derivatives (drugs with slightly different, yet similar, mechanisms of action).
Ultram is an opioid agonist, too -- just a very weak one.
> If you take the methadone route, I would advise you to not choose the *maintenence* program (where they keep you on it for a long time).
That might actually be the best thing (especially if Bijou isn't in the US, although I think that Ultram is strictly a US brand name). I'm not sure if they would admit someone to a MMT program who's dependent on Ultram, though, when there are so many people who need the service because of heroin addiction who aren't getting it.
> It may sound rosey
It's not, as you say. But most people I've met who are on MMT are happy with it, even in the US where it's very restrictive (as you also say).
> Choose the detox program (a program where they taper you down relatively comfortably over a two week period).
I'm not even sure that they would be willing to admit an Ultram-dependent person to a methadone detox program; they might just try to force "drug free" detox (which can be ugly, although I think with Ultram it wouldn't be so bad -- I still want to know how much Bijou has been taking).
Also, "detoxing" wouldn't solve the problem that Bijou has getting by without Ultram.
> There's also a blood pressure medicine called Clonadine that helps alleviate withdrawal symptoms, and it is not addictive (as far as I know).
It's also not very effective, unfortunately.
-elizabeth
Posted by MB on July 18, 2001, at 11:38:23
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal! » MB, posted by Elizabeth on July 18, 2001, at 8:44:28
> > My drugs were codeine and morphine derivatives (drugs with slightly different, yet similar, mechanisms of action).
>
> Ultram is an opioid agonist, too -- just a very weak one.
>
> > If you take the methadone route, I would advise you to not choose the *maintenence* program (where they keep you on it for a long time).
>
> That might actually be the best thing (especially if Bijou isn't in the US, although I think that Ultram is strictly a US brand name). I'm not sure if they would admit someone to a MMT program who's dependent on Ultram, though, when there are so many people who need the service because of heroin addiction who aren't getting it.
>
> > It may sound rosey
>
> It's not, as you say. But most people I've met who are on MMT are happy with it, even in the US where it's very restrictive (as you also say).I sure wasn't happy with it, but then my situation was weird. They started me on 20mg every day...after the third day it was supposed to keep me "well" until the next dose (I don't know why it was supposed to take three days, the nurse said something about "building up in the body," but I never completely understood). Anyway, I'd get deathly sick (withdrawal) every night, and each day until my next dose. They kept increasing the dose, saying that larger doses would take longer to clear, which makes sense, I guess. They eventually got me up to 210 mg/day, but I was still getting sick at night. The larger doses didn't keep me "well" for longer periods, they just boosted my dependence so when I *did* get sick that night (and all next day until my next dose) the sickness got progressively worse. By the time I was at 210mg/day, I needed someone to help me walk into the clinic. I don't know why I was metabolizing it so fast, but they said it happens with some people. I tried everything. I even started eating a box of OTC Tagamet before each dose because it was supposed to inhibit the enzyme that metabolized methadone. It was a nightmare. My pdoc thought that if I could get dosed twice a day, it would keep my blood levels high enough to block withdrawal, but they were only open a few hours a day, and they wouldn't let me take the other half of my dose home because they thought i'd sell it!!! I mean, I was dying every night from withdrawals, why would I f***ing sell my dose??? I finally had to be hospitalized where it was legal for my pdoc to prescribe methadone, then he prescribed a "split dose" and I was off of it and back on heroin in a couple weeks. What a relief!!! And I must say that nobody in the clinic was glad to be chained to that clinic that treated people like animals. Maybe other clinics are different, but my whole experience to this day makes me enraged. So, sorry for the rant. Peace :-)
> > Choose the detox program (a program where they taper you down relatively comfortably over a two week period).
>
> I'm not even sure that they would be willing to admit an Ultram-dependent person to a methadone detox program; they might just try to force "drug free" detox (which can be ugly, although I think with Ultram it wouldn't be so bad -- I still want to know how much Bijou has been taking).
>
> Also, "detoxing" wouldn't solve the problem that Bijou has getting by without Ultram.
>
> > There's also a blood pressure medicine called Clonadine that helps alleviate withdrawal symptoms, and it is not addictive (as far as I know).
>
> It's also not very effective, unfortunately.
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on July 18, 2001, at 20:58:06
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal! » Elizabeth, posted by MB on July 18, 2001, at 11:38:23
> > It's not, as you say. But most people I've met who are on MMT are happy with it, even in the US where it's very restrictive (as you also say).
>
> I sure wasn't happy with it, but then my situation was weird. They started me on 20mg every day...after the third day it was supposed to keep me "well" until the next dose (I don't know why it was supposed to take three days, the nurse said something about "building up in the body," but I never completely understood).Steady-state serum levels, that's all. Methadone is very long-acting, so it doesn't take long to reach steady state (same with Prozac, for example).
> Anyway, I'd get deathly sick (withdrawal) every night, and each day until my next dose.
Methadone is *supposed* to last a day or more, but for some people it doesn't. (The recommended dosing schedule for pain is every 4-6 hours. I never understood why it would be different.)
> They kept increasing the dose, saying that larger doses would take longer to clear, which makes sense, I guess. They eventually got me up to 210 mg/day, but I was still getting sick at night.
You needed to take it in divided doses, twice a day perhaps. Getting you up to an unbelievably high dose was effective at enslaving you, though, wasn't it? (That was the original idea behind MMT.)
> By the time I was at 210mg/day, I needed someone to help me walk into the clinic.
I couldn't imagine being able to get myself to a clinic in the morning if I were dependent on methadone to remain undepressed and it didn't last as long as it's "supposed" to.
> I don't know why I was metabolizing it so fast, but they said it happens with some people.
Yet for some reason, they won't adapt the system to deal with it.
> I tried everything. I even started eating a box of OTC Tagamet before each dose because it was supposed to inhibit the enzyme that metabolized methadone.
That's an old trick! I guess it didn't work, though. I'm not sure how much cimetidine you'd have to take.
> I finally had to be hospitalized where it was legal for my pdoc to prescribe methadone, then he prescribed a "split dose" and I was off of it and back on heroin in a couple weeks. What a relief!!!
I guess you couldn't continue on MMT and use heroin as your nightly dose (because they test your urine for 6-monoacetylmorphine, presumably)? No way to win.
> And I must say that nobody in the clinic was glad to be chained to that clinic that treated people like animals.
They're not people, they're drug addicts (that's the idea, anyway).
> Maybe other clinics are different, but my whole experience to this day makes me enraged.
Maybe; or maybe other people are just so fed up with life on dope that they're willing to put up with all the cr*p.
> So, sorry for the rant. Peace :-)
Always peace. It's just a rant, after all. < g >
-elizabeth
Posted by MB on July 19, 2001, at 20:13:58
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal! » MB, posted by Elizabeth on July 18, 2001, at 20:58:06
> > > It's not, as you say. But most people I've met who are on MMT are happy with it, even in the US where it's very restrictive (as you also say).
> >
> > I sure wasn't happy with it, but then my situation was weird. They started me on 20mg every day...after the third day it was supposed to keep me "well" until the next dose (I don't know why it was supposed to take three days, the nurse said something about "building up in the body," but I never completely understood).
>
> Steady-state serum levels, that's all. Methadone is very long-acting, so it doesn't take long to reach steady state (same with Prozac, for example).
So that's all it is? Just takes time to reach steady state? The way the nurse described it, I thought she was talking about "stacking" (is that the right term?)...you know, when it stores up (I don't know where) and is realeased slowly? Doesn't Xanax do that? Hell, I don't know really what I'm talking about, but that's what the nurse made it sound like.> > Anyway, I'd get deathly sick (withdrawal) every night, and each day until my next dose.
>
> Methadone is *supposed* to last a day or more, but for some people it doesn't. (The recommended dosing schedule for pain is every 4-6 hours. I never understood why it would be different.)
Right, supposedly a patient on MMT could miss a day and still come back "well" 48 hrs after their last dose. I see that far fetched.
> > They kept increasing the dose, saying that larger doses would take longer to clear, which makes sense, I guess. They eventually got me up to 210 mg/day, but I was still getting sick at night.
>
> You needed to take it in divided doses, twice a day perhaps. Getting you up to an unbelievably high dose was effective at enslaving you, though, wasn't it? (That was the original idea behind MMT.)
I tried so hard to get them to give me a divided dose, but they were fixed on the idea that I was a charlatan and that I wanted to sell my second dose once I got out of the clinic with it. I somewhat understand that they might be wary after working with junkies for years (who often *are* charlatans after having to survive on the streets).
> > By the time I was at 210mg/day, I needed someone to help me walk into the clinic.
>
> I couldn't imagine being able to get myself to a clinic in the morning if I were dependent on methadone to remain undepressed and it didn't last as long as it's "supposed" to.
It really was a nightmare. And as sick as I was getting staying on the *same* dose daily, there was no way I could handle one of their tapering schemes. It was the most trapped I've felt.
> > I don't know why I was metabolizing it so fast, but they said it happens with some people.
>
> Yet for some reason, they won't adapt the system to deal with it.
Nope.
> > I tried everything. I even started eating a box of OTC Tagamet before each dose because it was supposed to inhibit the enzyme that metabolized methadone.
>
> That's an old trick! I guess it didn't work, though. I'm not sure how much cimetidine you'd have to take.
It actually did help a little. It kept me well through the afternoon, at least. Night time and the next morning were still bad, though.
> > I finally had to be hospitalized where it was legal for my pdoc to prescribe methadone, then he prescribed a "split dose" and I was off of it and back on heroin in a couple weeks. What a relief!!!
>
> I guess you couldn't continue on MMT and use heroin as your nightly dose (because they test your urine for 6-monoacetylmorphine, presumably)? No way to win.
No, it would have taken a *lot* of heroin, at that point, to do anything. My opoid tolorance was so high. I remember eating a handful of seven Lorcet (10mg hydrocodone each) one night when I was hurting, and it didn't even take the edge off. I couldn't even tell that I had taken them. Now *that* was scary. Truthfully, I didn't want to do street drugs. I wanted to be legit. Actually, I lasted a month off of the methadone before turning back to illegal stuff. I *did* try...
> > And I must say that nobody in the clinic was glad to be chained to that clinic that treated people like animals.
>
> They're not people, they're drug addicts (that's the idea, anyway).
> > Maybe other clinics are different, but my whole experience to this day makes me enraged.
>
> Maybe; or maybe other people are just so fed up with life on dope that they're willing to put up with all the cr*p.
Yeah, a methadone clinic beats life on the streets hustling for a fix. I was never there, though. I was a nice upper middle class addict. Their cr*p wasn't worth it to me.
> > So, sorry for the rant. Peace :-)
>
> Always peace. It's just a rant, after all. < g >
>
> -elizabethHeh...cool.
Posted by Elizabeth on July 19, 2001, at 23:31:31
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal! » Elizabeth, posted by MB on July 19, 2001, at 20:13:58
> So that's all it is? Just takes time to reach steady state?
Yes, I think that's all.
> The way the nurse described it, I thought she was talking about "stacking" (is that the right term?)...you know, when it stores up (I don't know where) and is realeased slowly?
Methadone is long-acting; it's metabolised and eliminated very slowly. When you take your second dose, some of the first dose is still in your body, and so forth. After a little while the level is roughly constant (although it always will have some peaks and troughs).
> Right, supposedly a patient on MMT could miss a day and still come back "well" 48 hrs after their last dose. I see that far fetched.
I don't know; I've never taken methadone. I think it would be nice to have a pill that I could take once a day, though (forget about skipping days).
> I tried so hard to get them to give me a divided dose, but they were fixed on the idea that I was a charlatan and that I wanted to sell my second dose once I got out of the clinic with it.
I think that might be a rule that all methadone clinics have to follow, but I'm not sure. They do treat you like a second-class human being, don't they? :-( (I think that's how drug addicts are looked at in general.)
> I somewhat understand that they might be wary after working with junkies for years (who often *are* charlatans after having to survive on the streets).
You can sympathise with that, though, right? I don't think the people who run the clinics ever think about what it's like to be on the other side, they just feel superior.
> It really was a nightmare. And as sick as I was getting staying on the *same* dose daily, there was no way I could handle one of their tapering schemes. It was the most trapped I've felt.
So you did the only thing you could: you left the program. Jeez. That should *never* have to happen -- a person who's on MMT and genuinely wants to be shouldn't be forced out.
> > That's an old trick! I guess it didn't work, though. I'm not sure how much cimetidine you'd have to take.
>
> It actually did help a little. It kept me well through the afternoon, at least. Night time and the next morning were still bad, though.How much were you taking?
> > I guess you couldn't continue on MMT and use heroin as your nightly dose (because they test your urine for 6-monoacetylmorphine, presumably)? No way to win.
>
> No, it would have taken a *lot* of heroin, at that point, to do anything.It's true; methadone effectively prevents heroin from working at reasonable doses because methadone's affinity for the receptors is so high.
> I remember eating a handful of seven Lorcet (10mg hydrocodone each) one night when I was hurting, and it didn't even take the edge off.
70 mg? God. You could cause liver damage from taking all that Tylenol that they put in the pills with it.
> Actually, I lasted a month off of the methadone before turning back to illegal stuff. I *did* try...
Of course you did. Nobody *wants* to be a drug addict.
> > Maybe; or maybe other people are just so fed up with life on dope that they're willing to put up with all the cr*p.
>
> Yeah, a methadone clinic beats life on the streets hustling for a fix. I was never there, though. I was a nice upper middle class addict. Their cr*p wasn't worth it to me.I suspect there are a lot of people out there like you who have money so that they can buy dope and not have to steal, etc. (I knew some of them in college, come to think of it).
> > Always peace. It's just a rant, after all. < g >
>
> Heh...cool.I just don't consider ranting to be a form of violence. :-)
-elizabeth
Posted by MB on July 20, 2001, at 2:06:33
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal! » MB, posted by Elizabeth on July 19, 2001, at 23:31:31
> > So that's all it is? Just takes time to reach steady state?
>
> Yes, I think that's all.
>
> > The way the nurse described it, I thought she was talking about "stacking" (is that the right term?)...you know, when it stores up (I don't know where) and is realeased slowly?
>
> Methadone is long-acting; it's metabolised and eliminated very slowly. When you take your second dose, some of the first dose is still in your body, and so forth. After a little while the level is roughly constant (although it always will have some peaks and troughs).
>
> > Right, supposedly a patient on MMT could miss a day and still come back "well" 48 hrs after their last dose. I see that far fetched.
>
> I don't know; I've never taken methadone. I think it would be nice to have a pill that I could take once a day, though (forget about skipping days).
>
> > I tried so hard to get them to give me a divided dose, but they were fixed on the idea that I was a charlatan and that I wanted to sell my second dose once I got out of the clinic with it.
>
> I think that might be a rule that all methadone clinics have to follow, but I'm not sure. They do treat you like a second-class human being, don't they? :-( (I think that's how drug addicts are looked at in general.)
>
> > I somewhat understand that they might be wary after working with junkies for years (who often *are* charlatans after having to survive on the streets).
>
> You can sympathise with that, though, right? I don't think the people who run the clinics ever think about what it's like to be on the other side, they just feel superior.
>
> > It really was a nightmare. And as sick as I was getting staying on the *same* dose daily, there was no way I could handle one of their tapering schemes. It was the most trapped I've felt.
>
> So you did the only thing you could: you left the program. Jeez. That should *never* have to happen -- a person who's on MMT and genuinely wants to be shouldn't be forced out.
>
> > > That's an old trick! I guess it didn't work, though. I'm not sure how much cimetidine you'd have to take.
> >
> > It actually did help a little. It kept me well through the afternoon, at least. Night time and the next morning were still bad, though.
>
> How much were you taking?
Oh gosh, I don't know. The boxes came in different sizes. I'd buy the box with the single blister-pack of pills (I think the smallest box)...maybe twelve. Does that sound right? I don't remember how many milligrams of Tagamet were in the over-the-counter preperations.
> > > I guess you couldn't continue on MMT and use heroin as your nightly dose (because they test your urine for 6-monoacetylmorphine, presumably)? No way to win.
> >
> > No, it would have taken a *lot* of heroin, at that point, to do anything.
>
> It's true; methadone effectively prevents heroin from working at reasonable doses because methadone's affinity for the receptors is so high.
>
> > I remember eating a handful of seven Lorcet (10mg hydrocodone each) one night when I was hurting, and it didn't even take the edge off.
>
> 70 mg? God. You could cause liver damage from taking all that Tylenol that they put in the pills with it.
Yeah, I think each tab had 650...maybe 675 mg of acetaminophen in it. I think I *am* pretty lucky regarding the amount of tylenol I used to consume. I used to take a lot of N-acetylcysteine with the Lorcet. I went through a bottle of 30 vicodin in a 24 hour period once...without the N-acetylcysteine. I was pretty worried, but I think spreading it out over the 24 hours kept me from getting hepatatoxic.
> > Actually, I lasted a month off of the methadone before turning back to illegal stuff. I *did* try...
>
> Of course you did. Nobody *wants* to be a drug addict.
Well, I didn't mind being dependent...as long as I had a steady enough supply to keep me doing well. I didn't want to be a criminal, though, which was what I became using the heroin. No telling what that cr*p (tar) was cut with. Pretty dirty stuff. Glad to be off all that stuff, now.
> > > Maybe; or maybe other people are just so fed up with life on dope that they're willing to put up with all the cr*p.
> >
> > Yeah, a methadone clinic beats life on the streets hustling for a fix. I was never there, though. I was a nice upper middle class addict. Their cr*p wasn't worth it to me.
>
> I suspect there are a lot of people out there like you who have money so that they can buy dope and not have to steal, etc. (I knew some of them in college, come to think of it).
Yeah, I didn't have to steal, but the people I came in contact with were pretty scary. It's not like the pot scene...we're not talking about a few dead-heads with dreads. I had to interact with some pretty iffy characters. The scene was, well, lame.
> > > Always peace. It's just a rant, after all. < g >
> >
> > Heh...cool.
>
> I just don't consider ranting to be a form of violence. :-)
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on July 20, 2001, at 17:08:07
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal! » Elizabeth, posted by MB on July 20, 2001, at 2:06:33
> > How much were you taking?
>
> Oh gosh, I don't know.I'm not sure how many there are in the various size boxes and how much there is in each pill. If I remember, maybe next time I'm at a drug store I'll check.
> > 70 mg? God. You could cause liver damage from taking all that Tylenol that they put in the pills with it.
>
> Yeah, I think each tab had 650...maybe 675 mg of acetaminophen in it.There're actually hydrocodone-APAP preparations that have 10 mg of hydrocodone and only like 325 of APAP.
> I think I *am* pretty lucky regarding the amount of tylenol I used to consume. I used to take a lot of N-acetylcysteine with the Lorcet.
Another strategy I've heard of. It always surprises me when it turns out that one of those "food supplements" actually does something useful.
> I went through a bottle of 30 vicodin in a 24 hour period once...without the N-acetylcysteine.
300 mg? I guess if you're taking 70 at a time, that's not so far-fetched. I don't even want to think about how much APAP there was in that, though. I'm glad you're okay.
> Well, I didn't mind being dependent...as long as I had a steady enough supply to keep me doing well. I didn't want to be a criminal, though, which was what I became using the heroin. No telling what that cr*p (tar) was cut with.
Are you on the west coast, by any chance?
> Yeah, I didn't have to steal, but the people I came in contact with were pretty scary.
That's one of the many reasons why I say that nobody wants to be an addict. Even if you're well-off enough that you can afford whatever you need, you still have to make regular trips to "the bad part of town" (unless you have a friend who's willing to do that part).
> It's not like the pot scene...we're not talking about a few dead-heads with dreads.
Pot? I associate that more with, you know, high school kids. (and springtime, for some reason)
-elizabeth
Posted by MB on July 20, 2001, at 18:31:31
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal! » MB, posted by Elizabeth on July 20, 2001, at 17:08:07
> > > How much were you taking?
> >
> > Oh gosh, I don't know.
>
> I'm not sure how many there are in the various size boxes and how much there is in each pill. If I remember, maybe next time I'm at a drug store I'll check.
You know what's really funny? I had a dream last night about this whole converastion...in the dream I was counting the tablets in the blister pack, and the blister pack kept getting bigger and bigger...I finally counted like 40 tabs and was thinking, "holy sh*t, I can't believe I took that many!"
> > > 70 mg? God. You could cause liver damage from taking all that Tylenol that they put in the pills with it.
> >
> > Yeah, I think each tab had 650...maybe 675 mg of acetaminophen in it.
>
> There're actually hydrocodone-APAP preparations that have 10 mg of hydrocodone and only like 325 of APAP.
Wow, I should have gotton those. I wish they just made hydrocodone without the acetaminophen...I guess they put the acetaminophen in there just to poison people: "We'd rather people die of LIVER FAILURE than get high!!! Let's denature the ethanol while we're at it; getting high is THE DEVIL (unless it's taxed, of course)."
> > I think I *am* pretty lucky regarding the amount of tylenol I used to consume. I used to take a lot of N-acetylcysteine with the Lorcet.
>
> Another strategy I've heard of. It always surprises me when it turns out that one of those "food supplements" actually does something useful.
I know. I read about acetaminophen overdoses being treated by IV N-acetylcysteine, and I was like, "huh, I think I have some of that stuff in the cupboard!" (using the word "like" in conversation, by the way, is one sure way to demonstrate one's erudition).
> > I went through a bottle of 30 vicodin in a 24 hour period once...without the N-acetylcysteine.
>
> 300 mg? I guess if you're taking 70 at a time, that's not so far-fetched. I don't even want to think about how much APAP there was in that, though. I'm glad you're okay.
Me too. I was pretty nauseated the next day. I was really going for broke, I don't know why. Opiates cure my depression, but sadly, I *am* compulsive when I use them. I wonder if I would be with buprenorphine. Probably.
> > Well, I didn't mind being dependent...as long as I had a steady enough supply to keep me doing well. I didn't want to be a criminal, though, which was what I became using the heroin. No telling what that cr*p (tar) was cut with.
>
> Are you on the west coast, by any chance?
Yeah. I lived on the West Coast at the time. Any of the major cities along that coast (San Diego, L.A., San Francisco, Eugene, Portland, Seattle...) are innundated with the stuff (tar).
> > Yeah, I didn't have to steal, but the people I came in contact with were pretty scary.
>
> That's one of the many reasons why I say that nobody wants to be an addict. Even if you're well-off enough that you can afford whatever you need, you still have to make regular trips to "the bad part of town" (unless you have a friend who's willing to do that part).
Right. And those people can see the well-off addict a mile away...and they're dying to rip you off...
> > It's not like the pot scene...we're not talking about a few dead-heads with dreads.
>
> Pot? I associate that more with, you know, high school kids. (and springtime, for some reason)
Oh yeah, well, when you're a deadhead, it's always springtime, dear < g >.
Posted by Elizabeth on July 21, 2001, at 22:22:06
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal!, posted by MB on July 20, 2001, at 18:31:31
> You know what's really funny? I had a dream last night about this whole converastion...in the dream I was counting the tablets in the blister pack, and the blister pack kept getting bigger and bigger...I finally counted like 40 tabs and was thinking, "holy sh*t, I can't believe I took that many!"
That's pretty funny, yup!
> (using the word "like" in conversation, by the way, is one sure way to demonstrate one's erudition).
You mean as in "to be like" = "to say?"
> Opiates cure my depression, but sadly, I *am* compulsive when I use them. I wonder if I would be with buprenorphine. Probably.
As far as I know, buprenorphine doesn't get you high. FWIW.
> > Are you on the west coast, by any chance?
>
> Yeah. I lived on the West Coast at the time. Any of the major cities along that coast (San Diego, L.A., San Francisco, Eugene, Portland, Seattle...) are innundated with the stuff (tar).Yeah, that's what I was thinking: tar seems to be a west-coast-specific thing. I don't think one sees it in New York or Baltimore or Boston, for example.
> > Pot? I associate that more with, you know, high school kids. (and springtime, for some reason)
>
> Oh yeah, well, when you're a deadhead, it's always springtime, dear < g >.< sniff > Ahh, spring is in the air!
-elizabeth
Posted by MB on July 22, 2001, at 1:31:46
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal! » MB, posted by Elizabeth on July 21, 2001, at 22:22:06
> > You know what's really funny? I had a dream last night about this whole converastion...in the dream I was counting the tablets in the blister pack, and the blister pack kept getting bigger and bigger...I finally counted like 40 tabs and was thinking, "holy sh*t, I can't believe I took that many!"
>
> That's pretty funny, yup!
>
> > (using the word "like" in conversation, by the way, is one sure way to demonstrate one's erudition).
>
> You mean as in "to be like" = "to say?"
It's like all funny to say "like."
> > Opiates cure my depression, but sadly, I *am* compulsive when I use them. I wonder if I would be with buprenorphine. Probably.
>
> As far as I know, buprenorphine doesn't get you high. FWIW.
That detox place (not the methadone clinic, this was after that) in California, that stole my Xanax and put me on Tegretol, gave me buprenorphine for H withdrawal. They were too cheap to have a nurse practitioner or MD on site, so we couldn't get injections. The gave it to us sublingually. It didn't work, I thought it was bull****. Then one day they took me to the doctor for a checkup (this was inpatient treatment) and he gave me an intramuscular buprenorphine shot and I felt much better...cleared the chills and runny nose right up. I have no idea what it would have been like to take if I *hadn't* been withdrawing. But I can tell you (as you've said before) that sublingual buprenorphine is for the birds.> > > Are you on the west coast, by any chance?
> >
> > Yeah. I lived on the West Coast at the time. Any of the major cities along that coast (San Diego, L.A., San Francisco, Eugene, Portland, Seattle...) are innundated with the stuff (tar).
>
> Yeah, that's what I was thinking: tar seems to be a west-coast-specific thing. I don't think one sees it in New York or Baltimore or Boston, for example.
>
> > > Pot? I associate that more with, you know, high school kids. (and springtime, for some reason)
> >
> > Oh yeah, well, when you're a deadhead, it's always springtime, dear < g >.
>
> < sniff > Ahh, spring is in the air!
I hear ya. Thank god for Flonase. I was a wreck until I got a script for that stuff (that *is* the "sniff" you're talking about, isn't it?).
Posted by MB on July 22, 2001, at 1:35:37
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal! » MB, posted by Elizabeth on July 21, 2001, at 22:22:06
> As far as I know, buprenorphine doesn't get you high. FWIW.Hmmmm...this is very interesting, by the way. This just might be something that would help me. You've mentioned that it really helped you. I've always wished there was an antidepressant that helped me like opiates but that didn't get me high (I don't want to be "messed up," I just want to be un-depressed). Did you have a difficult time getting this sanctioned by a pdoc?
Posted by Elizabeth on July 22, 2001, at 13:21:30
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal! » Elizabeth, posted by MB on July 22, 2001, at 1:35:37
> I've always wished there was an antidepressant that helped me like opiates but that didn't get me high (I don't want to be "messed up," I just want to be un-depressed).
Then I think buprenorphine could be very helpful to you. In a number of countries, it's used the way we use methadone here, as maintenance treatment for opioid dependence. Addicts say that it takes away their feelings of not-rightness without impairing them.
> Did you have a difficult time getting this sanctioned by a pdoc?
I was lucky: my pdoc referred me to a colleague who happened to have extensive experience using it in clinical and research settings. Since then I've moved, and yes, it has been challenging (but not impossible: eventually I was successful) to convince other doctors to prescribe it, even though I was already taking it.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on July 22, 2001, at 13:30:16
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal! » Elizabeth, posted by MB on July 22, 2001, at 1:31:46
> It's like all funny to say "like."
< valleygirl >You are, like, *so* right.< /valleygirl >
> That detox place (not the methadone clinic, this was after that) in California, that stole my Xanax and put me on Tegretol, gave me buprenorphine for H withdrawal. They were too cheap to have a nurse practitioner or MD on site, so we couldn't get injections. The gave it to us sublingually. It didn't work, I thought it was bull****.
That's right: the solution doesn't work reliably if you take it SL; you just end up swallowing most of it, and it's not orally active (at typical doses). There are tablets that you dissolve under your tongue, which might work better than trying to take the injectible solution sublingually, but they're not available in the USA. (They're marketed as Temgesic or Subutex in other countries, and are under investigation as a treatment for opioid dependence in the US.)
> Then one day they took me to the doctor for a checkup (this was inpatient treatment) and he gave me an intramuscular buprenorphine shot and I felt much better...cleared the chills and runny nose right up.
Out of curiosity, how fast did it work? It takes about an hour intranasally, and I've wondered if taking it IM would speed up the process (it definitely would be convenient).
> I have no idea what it would have been like to take if I *hadn't* been withdrawing.
I suspect there are commonalities to depression and dope withdrawal (never experienced the latter). (Of course, depression doesn't cause vomiting, diarrhea, chills, shakes, etc.)
> > < sniff > Ahh, spring is in the air!
>
> I hear ya. Thank god for Flonase. I was a wreck until I got a script for that stuff (that *is* the "sniff" you're talking about, isn't it?).Nope, I was referring to the lovely smell that used to waft through my dorm in college.
-elizabeth
Posted by MB on July 22, 2001, at 20:16:11
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal! » MB, posted by Elizabeth on July 22, 2001, at 13:30:16
> > Then one day they took me to the doctor for a checkup (this was inpatient treatment) and he gave me an intramuscular buprenorphine shot and I felt much better...cleared the chills and runny nose right up.
>
> Out of curiosity, how fast did it work? It takes about an hour intranasally, and I've wondered if taking it IM would speed up the process (it definitely would be convenient).
When you say that it takes about an hour to work, may I assume you are not keeping a steady state serum level? Are you taking it PRN?I think that I felt better within a few minutes. Some of it could have been psychological (from the needle prick). I'm thinking that it kicked in after about ten minutes and that I felt better for about two and a half hours.
> > I have no idea what it would have been like to take if I *hadn't* been withdrawing.
>
> I suspect there are commonalities to depression and dope withdrawal (never experienced the latter). (Of course, depression doesn't cause vomiting, diarrhea, chills, shakes, etc.)
The depression from dope withdrawal feels different to me than the depression I feel every day. Comming off of opiates, I feel a really intense feeling of longing...not necessarily for the drug (although craving *is* present), I'm talking about an intense, free-floating, bittersweet nostalgia. Like the heartache of remembering good times, or a departed loved one, to the point of crying. Often, I will remember events that I had forgotten for years and years. Also, there's this feeling that an evil presence is imminent. The evil presence thing is a touchy deal with pdocs, and sharing it with them, I fear, is a good way to get slapped on a neuroleptic if I'm not careful. I took a psychological test once that asked if I had ever seen spirits. I answered "yes" because one time on LSD I thought there were spirits in the room. I didn't even get a chance to discuss why I answered "yes," the pdoc just assumed I was psychotic without even discussing the test. Wham, and I was on Zyprexa.> > > < sniff > Ahh, spring is in the air!
> >
> > I hear ya. Thank god for Flonase. I was a wreck until I got a script for that stuff (that *is* the "sniff" you're talking about, isn't it?).
>
> Nope, I was referring to the lovely smell that used to waft through my dorm in college.
Ah, yes...the days of the dorm.
Posted by Kristi on July 22, 2001, at 21:23:24
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal! » Elizabeth, posted by MB on July 22, 2001, at 20:16:11
Hi,
Sorry for the question..... just started reading this thread..... are you all talking about Ultram? or has the topic digressed? Just curious what I'm reading about..... thanx
Kristi
>
> > > Then one day they took me to the doctor for a checkup (this was inpatient treatment) and he gave me an intramuscular buprenorphine shot and I felt much better...cleared the chills and runny nose right up.
> >
> > Out of curiosity, how fast did it work? It takes about an hour intranasally, and I've wondered if taking it IM would speed up the process (it definitely would be convenient).
>
>
> When you say that it takes about an hour to work, may I assume you are not keeping a steady state serum level? Are you taking it PRN?
>
> I think that I felt better within a few minutes. Some of it could have been psychological (from the needle prick). I'm thinking that it kicked in after about ten minutes and that I felt better for about two and a half hours.
>
>
> > > I have no idea what it would have been like to take if I *hadn't* been withdrawing.
> >
> > I suspect there are commonalities to depression and dope withdrawal (never experienced the latter). (Of course, depression doesn't cause vomiting, diarrhea, chills, shakes, etc.)
>
>
> The depression from dope withdrawal feels different to me than the depression I feel every day. Comming off of opiates, I feel a really intense feeling of longing...not necessarily for the drug (although craving *is* present), I'm talking about an intense, free-floating, bittersweet nostalgia. Like the heartache of remembering good times, or a departed loved one, to the point of crying. Often, I will remember events that I had forgotten for years and years. Also, there's this feeling that an evil presence is imminent. The evil presence thing is a touchy deal with pdocs, and sharing it with them, I fear, is a good way to get slapped on a neuroleptic if I'm not careful. I took a psychological test once that asked if I had ever seen spirits. I answered "yes" because one time on LSD I thought there were spirits in the room. I didn't even get a chance to discuss why I answered "yes," the pdoc just assumed I was psychotic without even discussing the test. Wham, and I was on Zyprexa.
>
> > > > < sniff > Ahh, spring is in the air!
> > >
> > > I hear ya. Thank god for Flonase. I was a wreck until I got a script for that stuff (that *is* the "sniff" you're talking about, isn't it?).
> >
> > Nope, I was referring to the lovely smell that used to waft through my dorm in college.
>
>
> Ah, yes...the days of the dorm.
Posted by MB on July 22, 2001, at 23:08:12
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal!-silly question, posted by Kristi on July 22, 2001, at 21:23:24
We started talking about Bijou taking Ultram for depression and ways to cope when she ran out. I suggested methadone detox, but unleased a pejorative diatribe against methadone maintenance. Then we got way off topic and started discussing methadone in general, heroin, etc, etc. Wow, we really did get off topic. Sorry, Bijou!
Posted by Kristi on July 23, 2001, at 11:15:26
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal!-silly question » Kristi, posted by MB on July 22, 2001, at 23:08:12
Thank you!!!!! I take ultram myself... and kind of joined at the end, and started hearing things that kind of baffled me. Tx for taking the time to clear it up........kristi> We started talking about Bijou taking Ultram for depression and ways to cope when she ran out. I suggested methadone detox, but unleased a pejorative diatribe against methadone maintenance. Then we got way off topic and started discussing methadone in general, heroin, etc, etc. Wow, we really did get off topic. Sorry, Bijou!
Posted by Elizabeth on July 23, 2001, at 16:15:15
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal! » Elizabeth, posted by MB on July 22, 2001, at 20:16:11
> When you say that it takes about an hour to work, may I assume you are not keeping a steady state serum level? Are you taking it PRN?
It's prescribed for 3 times a day. I do achieve a low steady-state level. I can't take it at bedtime, though (it would keep me awake), so by the morning, it's pretty much worn off.
> I think that I felt better within a few minutes. Some of it could have been psychological (from the needle prick). I'm thinking that it kicked in after about ten minutes and that I felt better for about two and a half hours.
If it worked fast, it would make sense that it wouldn't last long. But I'm surprised by the difference: for me it lasts 5 or 6 hours.
> The depression from dope withdrawal feels different to me than the depression I feel every day. Comming off of opiates, I feel a really intense feeling of longing...not necessarily for the drug (although craving *is* present), I'm talking about an intense, free-floating, bittersweet nostalgia.
I've heard this described as "emptiness" or as a "void" that needs to be filled.
> Also, there's this feeling that an evil presence is imminent.
I've experienced something similar to that in the context of panic attacks. I don't like going into details like that with doctors.
> I took a psychological test once that asked if I had ever seen spirits. I answered "yes" because one time on LSD I thought there were spirits in the room.
That's a nondelusional hallucination: you know that the "spirits" weren't really there. (IOW, the right answer was "no.")
I hate those silly multiple choice personality tests. Nobody should be diagnosed based solely (or primarily) on one of those.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on July 23, 2001, at 16:16:31
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal!-silly question » MB, posted by Kristi on July 23, 2001, at 11:15:26
> Thank you!!!!! I take ultram myself... and kind of joined at the end, and started hearing things that kind of baffled me.
What's your experience with Ultram? You take it for pain, right?
-elizabeth
Posted by Mb on July 23, 2001, at 17:08:00
In reply to Re: Ultram withdrawal! » MB, posted by Elizabeth on July 23, 2001, at 16:15:15
> It's prescribed for 3 times a day. I do achieve a low steady-state level. I can't take it at bedtime, though (it would keep me awake), so by the morning, it's pretty much worn off.
Hmmmm...huh (that's me thinking, do you smell something burning? < g >) I think the whole deal with opiates and sleep is strange. I don't understand it. Sometimes they will allow me to fall into the most beautiful sleep state with these evanescent glimpses of soothing images...or else they give me insomnia to the high heavens. Usually, it's the pills cut with acetaminophen that do it. Do you think the tylenol could cause the paradoxical insomnia? I bring this up because you mentioned buprenorphine keeping you up. Why do you think the buprenorphine does?
> > I think that I felt better within a few minutes. Some of it could have been psychological (from the needle prick). I'm thinking that it kicked in after about ten minutes and that I felt better for about two and a half hours.
>
> If it worked fast, it would make sense that it wouldn't last long. But I'm surprised by the difference: for me it lasts 5 or 6 hours.
I would say that it blocked withdrawal for 2.5 hours, but it's possible that it continued to mitigate the symptoms even after that, but that I didn't notice...so it's not necessarily incongruent with your experience...all I know is when symptoms returned.
> > The depression from dope withdrawal feels different to me than the depression I feel every day. Comming off of opiates, I feel a really intense feeling of longing...not necessarily for the drug (although craving *is* present), I'm talking about an intense, free-floating, bittersweet nostalgia.
>
> I've heard this described as "emptiness" or as a "void" that needs to be filled.
Yeah, but it's weird...it's a bittersweet emptiness...like having an unrequited crush when you're thirteen years old. I don't know if that would be melancholia. What exactly *is* melencholia, anyway? I've never really fully understood that term in the clinical sense.> > Also, there's this feeling that an evil presence is imminent.
>
> I've experienced something similar to that in the context of panic attacks. I don't like going into details like that with doctors.
Yeah, I think "evil presence" is a red flag for pdocs. Anything that resembles a delusion with religious overtones gets them hot. hahaha...I mean that tongue-in-cheek to a certain degree, but there's also some truth to it.
Posted by Kristi on July 23, 2001, at 23:01:24
In reply to Re: Ultram » Kristi, posted by Elizabeth on July 23, 2001, at 16:16:31
Yes,
I take it for pain. Usually about 200mg a day(4 50mg tablets).... was kind of suprised about all these things I've been hearing about it. Anything you think I should know? (ex, be warned about?) Thanks, Kristi
> > Thank you!!!!! I take ultram myself... and kind of joined at the end, and started hearing things that kind of baffled me.
>
> What's your experience with Ultram? You take it for pain, right?
>
> -elizabeth
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