![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 18 to 42 of 48. Go back in thread:
Posted by stjames on October 20, 2000, at 14:26:19
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL » GLYN, posted by shar on October 20, 2000, at 2:12:23
(I have trouble with the description of "morbid fascination" -- If I had cancer or an immune disorder for which there were no hard and fast "cures" I would be hard at work learning as much as I could about that also.)
James here....
I do too (trouble with description, morbid fascination). My present doc flat out says I do so well because I am informed. It is common in the medical community to want patients to not ask questions or be informed. "Take this pill, don't ask questions" The assumption is that medical knowlage is only for the few. If I am going to have a condition for the rest of my life and take meds it is only logical to read up. I have met with a docs who was not comfortable with my questions and knowlage. I told them that since I am paying and they don't seem to have the time or are not comfortable with me I will find someone else.
james
Posted by Christina on October 20, 2000, at 14:42:08
In reply to Re: Yay, I finally have a hobby.---Arghhhh! » Christina, posted by shar on October 20, 2000, at 11:07:35
Shar, Thanks for your kind words....
I think that my lack of a real hobby is pathetic.
I am not.
I've thought a lot about a hobby. I'm not very artistic, but i enjoy working in the yard. I've thought about planting a vegetable garden. Maybe in the spring.
Others have spoken about ceramics. I did ceramics while in a psychiatric hospital (ya know, part of the recreational therapy), and now when I think about doing them again, I get the heebie jeebies. I made a vase... It was ugly just like my mood while in the hospital.
Posted by Sharon J. on October 20, 2000, at 17:30:37
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL SHARON, posted by GLYN on October 20, 2000, at 12:19:47
Hi, all. Thanks Shar and Glyn for your responses to me with regards to this thread. As I said, I am brand new here. I found this site quite by accident when my search engine found a URL which linked to a thread in Psychobabble when I was desperately searching for information to understand a real wierd problem about my meds...never even went to the web to seek information on my own before...was truly blessed when I happened to "click" on just the right reference and ended up here. I addressed my original plea for information and "help" and titled it: DOES THIS MAKE SCENTS? and posted it on 10/18. I got quite a few responses already and some really wonderful input in just the past 3 few days. I don't know if this is appropriate to do in this circle, but, if anybody would mind reading what is in that thread and can offer anything at all with regards to it, I'd be grateful. Thanks alot.
Posted by MarkinBoston on October 20, 2000, at 17:51:02
In reply to SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by GLYN on October 19, 2000, at 18:52:29
Interesting observations, here's my feedback. I too am "treatment resistant" like most here. I've been through lots of meds which eventually resolve my major unipolar melancholic episodes, help some with dysthymia, but not much in comparison to the side effects, and nothing for underlying anhedonia. My enjoyment of things and motivation are definately subnormal during major episodes and enjoyment always subnormal. Memory and cognitive skills return to suprnormal after major episodes (normal for me).
> We are all morbidly fascinated with our problems so much so that they appear to be as much a hobby as they are a burden - no offence intended as I am the worst for this.
Well, I've spent less time here as I'm starting to feel pretty good on 20mg Ritalin AM, 5g 1% Androgel bid, 50mg. Serzone bid. The first two I think make the biggesst difference for me and the subtheraputic level of Serzone helps and more of it increased memory problems (morning fog turning to panic while trying to remember where my keys or whatever are).
Some people may be here for the sense of community or shared common cause. I have a number of hobbies, but lose interest in them during episodes and priority shifts to health. When healthy, there are many things I'd rather do than spend personal time on a computer.
> We are all extremely intelligent, articulate, informed and, I would guess, fairly high achievers or gross under achievers.
I fall into that last catagory, and upon just turning 40 got really pissed off about the time I've wasted, fettered by this disease. I've had accounts and email addresses on "the net" for 25 years, started working for DEC at 16 fixing operating system bugs, dropped out of college, interviewed at Microsoft in 1982 with Steve Ballmer and Bill Gates, and turned down the job offer because the job wasn't interesting enough; they didn't have an ARPAnet connection, and DOS on an 8080 PC was a pathetic excuse for a computer compared to what I had been using. I am mad at myself for not having more motivation and in hindsight see it as component of long standing dysthymia. Same with a mostly single status resulting from long term anhedonia. Oh, and while I may be bright, I don't spell well.
> Almost all of you (I dont include myself in this just yet) are more informed about our meds than most docs are.
This is a current problem for me. The last three doctors I've seen in 6 months have not liked it. My pdoc of 8 years is supportive, and unlike the others appears to listen well and exchange knowledge. It seems to bruse their ego that I want to work with them on a course of treatment instead of just accepting their standard treatment for whatever issue. Spending more time on pubmed then they do, when its their job, irritates them too. I wish more doctors were as open-minded and unthreatened as my pdoc. This week's friction was splitting up my dose of Androgel to bedtime and waketime to decrease aromatization to estridiol, which elvates my already high levels, which twice resulted in panic attacks. The manufacturer advocates once a day use following the morning shower without much explination, but I infer its to reduce undesireable transfer to a female partner, but that is not a factor for me now. He turned down my request for very low dose Arimidex to reduce T- >E2 conversion, and didn't appreciate me suggesting giving Clomid to men to more quickly restore endogenous testosterone production when going off gel, patch, or shots. Both he termed as for research use, not clinical use, though anabolic steroid using athletes routinely do both. I'm sure he thinks I'm crazy (psyc history, you know), and though I was relieved to find that in men too, increased estradiol levels result in heightened stress response like I've felt, reading the study abstracts from PubMed won't change his opionion of my mental state.
Like JohnL, I've been frustrated at the lack of protocol for treating depression. I'm also frustrated by the trouble I've had finding a MD with expertise in both endocrinology and depression, despite the interrelationship in my case. Sometimes a pdoc will screen for hypothyroidism, but I don't know many wanting a full endocrine workup. Even endocrinologists seldom use the extended assays requiring numerous samples because hormone levels can have cycles, spurts, an/or dramatic 15-minute level changes. There's also the link between endocrinology (hypercortisolism) and hypertension, and newer types of anti-hypertensives are also antiaxiolytic.
> An alarming number of us confess to have taken some kind of illegal drug in the past (Cannabis, LSD etc). The old causation correlation debate applies here though and because there appears to be a relationship it is not easy to say if one caused the other.
I'd love to feel as good as the average person and illegal drugs must have some positive attributes if the government goes through the hassle of creating legislation. I don't know of any laws banning ingestion of purely toxic substances like gasoline, bleach, Draino etc.. Other factors at work here are that psyc meds stigmatize, but the value of sharing information outweighs that fear; we're shameless! Since HIV, having to talk openly about sex became a life or death issue, and a little embarassment was nothing compared to the pain of losing a loved one. Also more open is discussion of schedule I drug use to the degree that even our elected officials have talked about their own use.
As for having tried some schedule I drugs, well, I've tried far more antidepressants. No stigma in that. Even if I were a person adverse to trying new things (foods, activities, positions, travel), a pdoc would encourage trying a new drug or dosage if it might work (better). So some of us may have been more experimental to begin with or encouraged to be by Russian Roulette of psyc drug choice leading to more drugs experienced than if there were a more scientific approach to narrow down treatment candidates.
As to causation correlation debate, I think making a drug illegal causes more research funding to support the political decision. A drug I would like to see made illegal is the heartburn drug Tagamet (citimidine) which is now off patent and over the counter and can cause depression and hypogonadism besides having many drug interactions. But without "abuse potential", and large sales -its not likely to be made illegal despite newer, safer drugs.
So, being bright, more free-thinking, and post Vietnam and Watergate, I don't assume the FDA/DEA, drug companies, and AMA have my health and interests as their top priority and know what's best for me.
> Despite all of our travailing, very few of us seem to have been "cured" or feel satisified by the meds we are taking.
I'm fairly satisfied with the progress I'm making and how I feel now. When I'm "cured" or health treatment is no longer an acute concern, I'll spend my time other than here.
Concerning your hypothesis about disillusion, I don't find it true. All my major episodes have resulted from prolonged exogenous stress. I've tried thinking "happy thoughts" without success and still try, having done some cognative therapy work in the mid 80's. Acceptance of nature and what I can't control is important. The times I feel hopeless is when I have trouble finding a good doctor who can listen, keeps current, is willing to spend time with a patient, doesn't feel threatened, and has expertise and experience in treating my seemingly simple, interrelated symptoms. I also feel hopeless when treatment isn't working and I feel most avenues have been exhausted. Then I stumble upon this site and hope returns as I find others in similar situations and reporting benefit from many atypical combinations I had not considered.
One footnote on panic. One paper I came across on a small study sample subjected to 5 days of public speaking showed two thirds adapted to the stressor during that period with lowering HPA stimulation (cortisol levels), while one third maintained high cortisol levels throughout. So, many are predisposed to having panic.
Posted by coral on October 20, 2000, at 17:55:55
In reply to Re: Yay, I finally have a hobby.---Arghhhh!, posted by Christina on October 20, 2000, at 14:42:08
During my first depressive episode, I was doing some work in clay and made a self-mask, actually molded from my face. Due to improper clay, the mask came out very distorted, with a couple of large cracks, but it represented exactly how I was feeling at the time. I've kept it as a visual reminder of the HELL that I will NOT go back to, under any circumstances. The second depressive episode (much less severe and much shorter in duration) scared the living daylights out of me. I was completely blindsided by it, and although I took immediate and effective measures to tackle it, and I do believe I'm on the healing side, it still has me scared. I literally have immersed myself in attempting to understand, learn, heal, and, frankly, "morbid fascination" fit me to a tee. On a particularly bad day a week ago, I spent six hours scouring the net and this board for information while not doing anything else for the remainder of the day, including dressing, bathing or eating.
By NO means do I intend to minimize others' struggles, and find myself humbled and in awe of the people on this board who have fought this battle their entire lives. But, for me, this second episode is almost like having flashbacks. In addition to three and a half years of my life, I came within a hair's breath of losing everything, and am still (six years later) rebuilding financially. I will do anything (short of harming another person) to conquer this depression. Having said that, on my worst days, my best intentions fail me and I'm wrapped up in a blanket on the couch, knowing that I'll probably have a hellish night -- so, I sit counting the hours, even minutes, until the dawn of the next day, hoping it'll be better --- rather like keeping a vampire at bay until the sunlight returns.
One element that I haven't seen (or missed!) in this thread is the amount of energy that depression requires. Maybe I'm just deluding myself, but during the bad times, if I'm at least researching depression, et al, I don't feel like a complete failure.
Also, I will admit to extreme curiosity about this invisible marauder, this thief that ravaged my life once and attempted to a second time. It's like having been mugged and the self-education is like learning self-defense, especially given that I received such incredibly awful and harmful medical advice the first time.
I find depression to be crushingly boring, not unlike being stuck next to a gum-cracking, incessant chatterbox on an overseas flight. I desperately want to think about other things, and will, just as soon as this plane lands.
As far as the world being a painful place --- yes, it is, but it's also beautiful. There is joy in this life and I intend to get back to where joy is an integral part of my life.
Posted by SLS on October 20, 2000, at 20:14:43
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by stjames on October 20, 2000, at 14:26:19
> (I have trouble with the description of "morbid fascination" -- If I had cancer or an immune disorder for which there were no hard and fast "cures" I would be hard at work learning as much as I could about that also.)
>
> James here....
>
> I do too (trouble with description, morbid fascination). My present doc flat out says I do so well because I am informed. It is common in the medical community to want patients to not ask questions or be informed. "Take this pill, don't ask questions" The assumption is that medical knowlage is only for the few. If I am going to have a condition for the rest of my life and take meds it is only logical to read up. I have met with a docs who was not comfortable with my questions and knowlage. I told them that since I am paying and they don't seem to have the time or are not comfortable with me I will find someone else.
>
> james
If my first doctor had treated me successfully with one of the first few drugs tried, my only morbid fascination would be with why I had no morbid fascinations.I wish I didn't know a god-damned thing about psychiatry except for what pills to take in the morning.
- Scott
Posted by GLYN on October 20, 2000, at 20:31:25
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by SLS on October 20, 2000, at 20:14:43
Why, I wonder, are people still objecting to my description of "morbid fascination" when I completely withdrew it in an earlier post and instead offered a better description? Please read this earlier post as I think posts which continue to reiterate the same points which I have already gave answer to appear more as a defence strategy than a valid and justified reply. I wonder if people would have been as offended if I had called you all "mad", "crazy" or "loonies" - I doubt it. So why does this cause such offence and what might this be saying about how you are coming to terms with your "illness".
As I said, I NEVER intended any offence and would hope that people are able to make up their own minds about what I have said. I dont mean to say that introspection is a wrong thing at all - rather that it is interesting as it may indicate a form of intelligence or ability that in some way contributes to our condition.
Please dont take offence and no more posts on the subject of "morbid introspection" as its making me unduly guilty and paranoid. I love your introspection (morbid or not) and want to encourage it but would also like to add a further element of analysis.
Posted by stjames on October 20, 2000, at 21:40:08
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL SHARON, posted by GLYN on October 20, 2000, at 12:19:47
My main purpose was to encourage people by highlighting what I consider to be great and admirable strengths, abilities and value and in their "weaknesses".
James here....
Yes and no. Depression has never helped me with anything but ADD has been a great help once i mastered the downsides of it.
james
Posted by SLS on October 20, 2000, at 22:05:10
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by GLYN on October 20, 2000, at 20:31:25
Hi Glyn.
Sorry...No offense was ever taken. At this point, the issue of perspective has taken on a life of its own and is no longer a continuing response to you personally. I had no idea who said it in the first place. Now that I do, you know what you can do? Please write more. It was gracious of you to follow up your first post with a contemplative ammendment.
See ya'...
- Scott
> Why, I wonder, are people still objecting to my description of "morbid fascination" when I completely withdrew it in an earlier post and instead offered a better description? Please read this earlier post as I think posts which continue to reiterate the same points which I have already gave answer to appear more as a defence strategy than a valid and justified reply. I wonder if people would have been as offended if I had called you all "mad", "crazy" or "loonies" - I doubt it. So why does this cause such offence and what might this be saying about how you are coming to terms with your "illness".
>
> As I said, I NEVER intended any offence and would hope that people are able to make up their own minds about what I have said. I dont mean to say that introspection is a wrong thing at all - rather that it is interesting as it may indicate a form of intelligence or ability that in some way contributes to our condition.
>
> Please dont take offence and no more posts on the subject of "morbid introspection" as its making me unduly guilty and paranoid. I love your introspection (morbid or not) and want to encourage it but would also like to add a further element of analysis.
Posted by SLS on October 20, 2000, at 22:09:04
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL SHARON, posted by stjames on October 20, 2000, at 21:40:08
> My main purpose was to encourage people by highlighting what I consider to be great and admirable strengths, abilities and value and in their "weaknesses".
>
> James here....
>
> Yes and no. Depression has never helped me with anything but ADD has been a great help once i mastered the downsides of it.
>
> james
I don't know, James. I was told that people who are depressed have a more accurate perception of the world.:-)
- Scott
Posted by Noa on October 21, 2000, at 14:28:35
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by stjames on October 19, 2000, at 22:38:25
> Do keep in mind this list is weighted toward those who are having trouble with meds.
Yes, some folks who used to be regulars said they were moving on when they felt better.
Posted by Noa on October 21, 2000, at 14:34:09
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by GLYN on October 20, 2000, at 7:21:59
This sounds nice, Glyn, but my guess is that there are as many people who are just as smart and aware but don't suffer mental illness.
Posted by Noa on October 21, 2000, at 14:34:57
In reply to Yay, I finally have a hobby., posted by Christina on October 20, 2000, at 8:24:13
> I just re-read my post... I'm pretty pathetic.No, but pretty amusing!!
Posted by Noa on October 21, 2000, at 14:36:58
In reply to Re: Yay, I finally have a hobby.---Arghhhh! » Christina, posted by shar on October 20, 2000, at 11:07:35
Wouldn't it be great if when we make such unnecessary self-deprecating remarks, others here could send us an electronic zap.
Posted by Noa on October 21, 2000, at 14:38:45
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by Sharon J. on October 20, 2000, at 11:38:29
Sharon, somehow, it didn't offend me because I think Glyn managed to preface the comments in a way that made them less threatening.
Glad you stuck with it.
Posted by Noa on October 21, 2000, at 14:42:40
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL SHARON, posted by GLYN on October 20, 2000, at 12:19:47
I guess my feedback to Glyn would be to pose this question: Could your use of the term "morbidly fascinated" be a reflection of your own self-doubt about whether it is ok to focus on your problems?
If you are like a lot of folks, you have echoes in your head of people saying, "aw stop feeling sorry for yourself." or "don't be so sensitive". etc etc.
Posted by Noa on October 21, 2000, at 14:45:36
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by stjames on October 20, 2000, at 14:26:19
Good point, James. My becoming more informed through this board and other internet resources has also helped in my treatment, perhaps accelerating the process of finding what would work by years!!
Posted by Noa on October 21, 2000, at 14:53:00
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL » GLYN, posted by SLS on October 20, 2000, at 22:05:10
>Yes, Scott is right, at this point, the conversation has taken on a life of its own. It seems to me, the discussion at this point about the "morbid fascination" thing is a philosophical exploration, not a rejection of you for having used it.
In the same way that I posed the question to you about this term possibly reflecting your own self doubts about permission to focus on your illness, I think you are not alone. I, and possibly others here, also grapple with this issue, at least on some level, and the words stimulated thoughts about it.
Remember, too, that text based discussion has a way of leading to misunderstandings of intention, so what may seem to you like offence taken by others at your words probably is not so much that. To me it has seemed just discussion/exploration.
Posted by Sharon J. on October 21, 2000, at 15:52:39
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL SHARON, posted by Noa on October 21, 2000, at 14:42:40
> I guess my feedback to Glyn would be to pose this question: Could your use of the term "morbidly fascinated" be a reflection of your own self-doubt about whether it is ok to focus on your problems?
>
> If you are like a lot of folks, you have echoes in your head of people saying, "aw stop feeling sorry for yourself." or "don't be so sensitive". etc etc.Noa: I really want to thank you for the feedback that you gave (above) to Glyn, which I really hit home for me. I got a much better understanding as to why I was so bent out of shape with the original post.
What you posed as a question to Glyn (above), gave me an answer about myself. Because of what you proposed to Glyn, I see so clearly what was underlying in my initial angry reaction to her words. All that you said above fits perfectly for me. While I couldn't truly understand why I felt angry and Glyn and what she said in her orignal post, I see now that what is going on inside me is much deeper than my initial knee-jerk reaction.
Thanks for your insight. I learned so much about myself, and what was underneath my anger, from what you offered to Glyn.
Sharon
Posted by Sharon J. on October 21, 2000, at 15:55:45
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by Noa on October 21, 2000, at 14:38:45
> Sharon, somehow, it didn't offend me because I think Glyn managed to preface the comments in a way that made them less threatening.
>
> Glad you stuck with it.Me, too.
Sharon
Posted by pullmarine on October 21, 2000, at 16:58:29
In reply to SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by GLYN on October 19, 2000, at 18:52:29
> Hi,
>
> I am fairly new to this site but I have spent a lot of time reading the back posts and a few interesting consistencies between us all keep on striking me i.e cognitive behaviour, previous expereinces etc. (other than the fact that we are all in some way mentally ill - very much in want of a better expression).--Try 'more lucid than the average person'.
>
> I may be way off track here and maybe I'm stating the obvious but here goes:
>
> We are all morbidly fascinated with our problems so much so that they appear to be as much a hobby as they are a burden - no offence intended as I am the worst for this.
>
--- yes, and the point being? I thionk that this is the result of labeling and accepting labels. My asdvice. Reject the labels!!!!Set yourselves free. They are destructive, they don't help, and they a reductive. Personnally, I am far more than a psychiatric label.> We are all extremely intelligent, articulate, informed and, I would guess, fairly high achievers or gross under achievers (I myself have three degrees - BA, MSC, PhD - and work as an academic - thanks mainly due to my consistently manic attributes). I am consistently amazed by the quality and high level of writing which I see on this site - far more sophisticated in most than many of my MSc students.
>
> Almost all of you (I dont include myself in this just yet) are more informed about our meds than most docs are.
>
[-----Practice makes perfect!!!> An alarming number of us confess to have taken some kind of illegal drug in the past (Cannabis, LSD etc). The old causation correlation debate applies here though and because there appears to be a relationship it is not easy to say if one caused the other.
>
> Despite all of our travailing, very few of us seem to have been "cured" or feel satisified by the meds we are taking.
>That's because there is no cure. 1. Cure implies illness. 2. much of what we are is the result of life circumstances. 3. the statement that what we go through is the result of biochemical occurences that are insulated from the environment is 95% myth.
JOHN
Posted by Abby on October 21, 2000, at 18:37:07
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by GLYN on October 20, 2000, at 7:21:59
>
> If there is one consistent thread of belief to be seen amongst the masses it is this: "Ours is not to reason why. Ours is but to do and die." ARe we all people whose metal capacity will not allow us to do otherwise than to "reason why" and question the (utterly illfounded in my opinion) excuses and constructs which society has developed to make excuse for the otherwise meaningless, dangerous and remarkably subjective world that we all live in - but few share.
>
>
>
> Anyway, I'm rambling and I can't think clearly due to the drugs I'm on but what if.....
>
> We embrace our uniqueness and stop fearing it as "abnornmal" but recognise it as a form of genius - yes, genius - we are genetically incapable of delluding ourselves and can't help but "reason why"???????
>
> We recognise that we do live in a world where meaning, contentment, happiness and security are based on mass dellsuion which our minds are incapable of purchasing wholesale and so we must seek out our own meanings and wrestle with them.
>
> I should say though that perhaps religion or belief in a transcendant and intelligent God offer many solutions to our problems - though unless we buy our own bible and explore them for ourselves we simply embrace another set of contructions - however, if you can embrace them then this is probably not such a bad thing.
>
> One thing that set me off thinking was Freud's statement towards the end of his career that he now realised that psychoanalysis was itself the very disease is sought to cure - in other words, an analytical fascination and sometimes morbid concern with our mental processes, their meaning and their relationship to the "norm" may in itself be the root of many of our problems and a symptom which sustains them.
>
> PS - I know I'm talking rubbish and others such as the philosopher Foucault have said it all much better - in fact, I'm going to read his works on madness now!
>
> Love to hear your ideas....Glyn,
I'm not generally fond of deconstruction, and I think that Foucault is hugely overrated. I do, however, highly recommend Aldous Huxley's "The Doors of Perception" Huxley describes his experience of taking the hallucinogen mescalin. (Then in the companion volume "Heaven and Hell" he describes some of the problems). Huxley talks about teh value of seeing the complete reality but also the biologic necessity of seeing what is useful for us to get on with our lives. It seems to me that what he wanted to do in approaching that full reality was to knock us down from prideful arrogance. He NEVER thought it would be a good idea to live in such a state permanently. The terrible pain of the "schizophrenic", a term he used to refer to one who can not filter out the biologically extraneous information, was too great and a waste of the sheer wonder of creation.
I hope you enjoy it.
Abby
Posted by GLYN on October 21, 2000, at 19:05:19
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by pullmarine on October 21, 2000, at 16:58:29
I find all your responses fascinating and I'm glad to hear that Sharon feels she has more insight on herself after Noa's comments.
Your also right as I do accept labels far too easily and in fact I almost cling to them at times but this post is helping me to rethink these things. Some may describe me as in a constant state of mild mania - actualy I have severe anxiety and mild depression but I have been on the lookout for other stuff since I became obsessed with my mental health - but I am know realising that this is not an illness with me but just a part of who I am (the apparent mania that is). For instance, I NEVER go to bed before 4 am, have racing thoughts, a general inability to "relax" like "normal" people by watching hours of mind numbing TV, and a million and one good ideas most of which I fail to fulfill for lack of time and the one's I do manage to pull off keep me occupied from wake to bed. Is this an illness? I hope not as I would not want it any other way as I am happy with who I am - and a lot more so since this thread started. I live a diverse life - I'm an artist, published author, Jazz musician, academic, business man (I own and run a couple of web businesses), web designer and a whole host of other things - too many to mention. Strange thing is that although I would describe myself as well accomplished in all of these things I have yearned all my life to find the one true thing I was born to do. Yes, you say, "sure sounds like some form of mania to me" but I can honestly say that I truely love all of these things and have always found each of them relief from the otherwise one-dimensional life that I see other "normal" people lead (I sound arrogant now and I'm sure that they do indeed lead fuller lives than it appears).
If a doc ever described me as Manic and gave me a pill to make me "normal" I'd be broken hearted. Anyway, where does passion end and mania begin?
I beg to differ over cure. I believe that there are such things as cures. The Nazis found a "cure" to the Jewish problem just like we British found a cure for distinguishing ourselves from others less intelligent or refined by constructing a polite society and a class system (I must say that the USA is the only other country in the world where I see this as well defined as it is in the UK),
Drugs can cure but as somebody else said it all depends whether you see it as an illness or not. Alcohol "cures" inhibition, nicotine "cures" the need for nicotine, a bullet "cures" a bad relationship - but the question is in all cases "is the cure better than the problem?" and I believe that we must ask oursleves that before we hit the pills. If the answer is "yes, I'd rather cured" then great as this is the easy option - its learning to wrestle with our problems because we feel that they are worthwhile thats really tough.
I am starting to think that by taking the pills I do that I may be missing out on the experience of improving and stretching myself by getting over then by hard work and self analysis. Surely, none of us REALLY believe that our "problems" are always chemical do we? IS somebody going to tell me that boredom is caused by a lack of alcohol in the brain as well. Just becuase fiddling dopamine and serotonin makes us feel better doesn't mean that the lack of them or abundance of them is a cause of our problems does it? I've heard of people being given SSRI's after their partner has died (within days often) because they feel depressed - for heaven's sake who wouldn't? So why a drug and why an illness?
ANyway, thats enough ranting for one day.
Glad I was only paranoid about insulting people.
BTW: Dont mean to be pedantic but I am a 29 year old male from the UK - just noticed that I was refered to as a "she" in some posts. Or maybe there's something I should know about my gender or sexuality which you have all noticed? They say you are the last to know?
: )
Thanks again.
Glyn
Posted by ksvt on October 21, 2000, at 22:12:55
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by GLYN on October 21, 2000, at 19:05:19
> I find all your responses fascinating and I'm glad to hear that Sharon feels she has more insight on herself after Noa's comments.
>
> Your also right as I do accept labels far too easily and in fact I almost cling to them at times but this post is helping me to rethink these things. Some may describe me as in a constant state of mild mania - actualy I have severe anxiety and mild depression but I have been on the lookout for other stuff since I became obsessed with my mental health - but I am know realising that this is not an illness with me but just a part of who I am (the apparent mania that is). For instance, I NEVER go to bed before 4 am, have racing thoughts, a general inability to "relax" like "normal" people by watching hours of mind numbing TV, and a million and one good ideas most of which I fail to fulfill for lack of time and the one's I do manage to pull off keep me occupied from wake to bed. Is this an illness? I hope not as I would not want it any other way as I am happy with who I am - and a lot more so since this thread started. I live a diverse life - I'm an artist, published author, Jazz musician, academic, business man (I own and run a couple of web businesses), web designer and a whole host of other things - too many to mention. Strange thing is that although I would describe myself as well accomplished in all of these things I have yearned all my life to find the one true thing I was born to do. Yes, you say, "sure sounds like some form of mania to me" but I can honestly say that I truely love all of these things and have always found each of them relief from the otherwise one-dimensional life that I see other "normal" people lead (I sound arrogant now and I'm sure that they do indeed lead fuller lives than it appears).
>
> If a doc ever described me as Manic and gave me a pill to make me "normal" I'd be broken hearted. Anyway, where does passion end and mania begin?
>
> I beg to differ over cure. I believe that there are such things as cures. The Nazis found a "cure" to the Jewish problem just like we British found a cure for distinguishing ourselves from others less intelligent or refined by constructing a polite society and a class system (I must say that the USA is the only other country in the world where I see this as well defined as it is in the UK),
>
> Drugs can cure but as somebody else said it all depends whether you see it as an illness or not. Alcohol "cures" inhibition, nicotine "cures" the need for nicotine, a bullet "cures" a bad relationship - but the question is in all cases "is the cure better than the problem?" and I believe that we must ask oursleves that before we hit the pills. If the answer is "yes, I'd rather cured" then great as this is the easy option - its learning to wrestle with our problems because we feel that they are worthwhile thats really tough.
>
> I am starting to think that by taking the pills I do that I may be missing out on the experience of improving and stretching myself by getting over then by hard work and self analysis. Surely, none of us REALLY believe that our "problems" are always chemical do we? IS somebody going to tell me that boredom is caused by a lack of alcohol in the brain as well. Just becuase fiddling dopamine and serotonin makes us feel better doesn't mean that the lack of them or abundance of them is a cause of our problems does it? I've heard of people being given SSRI's after their partner has died (within days often) because they feel depressed - for heaven's sake who wouldn't? So why a drug and why an illness?
>
> ANyway, thats enough ranting for one day.
>
> Glad I was only paranoid about insulting people.
>
> BTW: Dont mean to be pedantic but I am a 29 year old male from the UK - just noticed that I was refered to as a "she" in some posts. Or maybe there's something I should know about my gender or sexuality which you have all noticed? They say you are the last to know?
>
> : )
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Glyn
This thread has progressed very quickly in a short period of time, and it's gotten far too lengthy for me to really digest so what I say may be very redundant. Nonetheless, i would like to weigh in. I found this site only about 4 months ago in the process of trying to get some drug info. In the past I've been on numerous different ADs without really knowing anything about them. Several things struck me about this site: 1) People take so many different combinations of things. In a sense this is heartening, because my pdoc never really let me know how many alternatives were out there, so I frequently have felt like I'm running out of options. It's also been good for me to see how much effort people have been willing to put into finding the right meds combination. 2) Some people on this site do have an incredible amount of knowledge about meds. I have a very sparse scientific background and lots of the time, the information desseminated around here passes right over my head. Nonetheless, it can be communicated as simply or as detailed as you'd like, and I'm awfully grateful for the input. 3) Even if my understanding of some of the physiological issues is limited, this site has been very helpful in allowing me to understand the kinds of questions I should be asking my pdoc and the kinds of issues I should be concerned about. Being able to do this has certainly helped me feel that I am taking a bit more control and not just floating along for the ride. 4) I've always been impressed with the amount of support people are offered on this board. It's heartening for me to see that even if it's not a thread that has anything to do with me. 5) Depression can be an unbelievably isolating illness. I can write things here that I can't really say to anyone and I know that what I write will be understood by people whose experiences have been similar. It's nice to find people who speak your language even if it's a language skill that you'd love not to have. 6) I don't see mental illness as anyone's hobby. It seems to me that most people here try to lead pretty normal lives. As someone else observed, people do get better and leave. I'm not anywhere near as inclined to spend time on this site when I'm feeling great. Thanks for raising some interesting points for discussion. ksvt
Posted by noa on October 23, 2000, at 7:49:32
In reply to Re: SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT US ALL, posted by GLYN on October 21, 2000, at 19:05:19
> If the answer is "yes, I'd rather cured" then great as this is the easy option - its learning to wrestle with our problems because we feel that they are worthwhile thats really tough.
>As of now, I don't believe there is a "cure" to my depression, just treatment.
And, I do object to the statement above about medication as "the easy option", and your assumption that taking medication obviates wrestling with our problems.
Pardon, me, Glyn, but this seems to me to be an oversimplification of the entire matter, which surprises me as you seem an intelligent guy.
Brain disorders are often not attributable to either one or the other of nature vs. nurture. The brain and the human experience and mind are far too complex for it to boil down to chemical vs. personal struggle.
Our minds and brains are shaped both by our innate constitution as well as by our experiences. Similarly, our constitutions can, to a certain extent, shape our lives. The two interact in a mutually influential and complex way.
From what you describe, you are enjoying your lifestyle, what could be called hypomania/mania (that is not unusual), so you have little motivation to treat it medically. And that is your right. That does not mean that you are opting out of the "easy option". You are simply making a choice based on what you feel and what you believe is best for you.
My medication does not eliminate my problems or make my life easy at all. But it eases a crippling depression that would have made me completely incapable of wrestling with my problems and my life, or led me to an early death.
As for labels, they are human made contstructs that serve a purpose. To me, they neither need to be accepted wholesale nor rejected. They are there to help conceptualize what is going on. One need not see them as the only way to conceptualize what is going on, but it helps if one wants to try to understand what is going on and devise strategies. The medical model need not stand opposed to a psychological model. Different ways of conceptualizing can help to form a richer understanding of situations and provide a larger set of options for addressing them.
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