![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 72. Go back in thread:
Posted by pullmarine on September 30, 2000, at 14:45:29
In reply to Re: it's your right to die, posted by Cindy W on September 29, 2000, at 22:48:54
People have the right to take their own lives if they so wish, and this is comming from someone who has worked extensively in suicide prevention). you will notice that i recommeneded that the person try to seek some other means of escaping their pain. This having been said, I've lost two people who took their own lives, and I really do wish they had less violent methods at their disposal. Lastly, the attitude that suicide is not desireable or is to be scorned or avoided is culture specific. there are a number of cultures that respect a person's decision to take their own lives.
about > > If you're really intent on taking your own life, the only sure fire ways are violent. ...
> >
> > Pullmarine:
> > I couldn't let this one slide. What kind of advice is that for someone contemplating taking his own life? Do you think you're being funny? Suicide attemps, however hilarious you think they may be, need to be taken seriously, not joked about and certainly not explained in detail on the effectiveness of doing it a certain way. Jesus, who do you think you're amusing? Obviously yourself. Do us all a favour and THINK before you post huh?
> > The value of a human life is priceless. ANY human life. If you don't place any value on the lives of others, I'm truly sad for you. Helping someone through a rough time, in my opinion, does NOT include planning out THEIR suicide for THEM. God, get a grip and THINK! Pain is real. THe help you offer should be REAL too. It is not a lauging matter.
>
> Pullmarine, I agree with Tina. I don't think it is appropriate or kind to post ways to suicide on this board. I'd suspect that everybody here has felt like killing himself/herself at some time; however, suicidal wishes are usually temporary and there are lots and lots of options. Help may be just around the corner!--Cindy W
Posted by JaneST on September 30, 2000, at 15:42:31
In reply to Re: it's your right to die, posted by pullmarine on September 30, 2000, at 14:45:29
> People have the right to take their own lives if they so wish,
Agreed...and we could talk for hours about euthanasia, Kevorkian, etc., but on a board where so many people may be contemplating this same thing, I do NOT believe it acceptable to discuss METHODS...there are other sites for that...so please go there and exchange this information.
>Lastly, the attitude that suicide is not desireable or is to be scorned or avoided is culture specific. there are a number of cultures that respect a person's decision to take their own lives.Disagree...same reasons as above.
Sincerely,
Jane
Posted by tina on September 30, 2000, at 18:47:02
In reply to Re: it's your right to die, posted by pullmarine on September 30, 2000, at 14:45:29
Lastly, the attitude that suicide is not desireable or is to be scorned or avoided is culture specific. there are a number of cultures that respect a person's decision to take their own lives.
Those cultures practice suicide as a religious ritual of some kind and they have their right to their rituals but here, on a "mutual support board" it is NOT a ritual. It is PAIN being expressed and a plea for HELP. Don't try to justify your own ridiculous rantings by cloaking them in cultural ritualistic practices that do NOT have any bearing on this situation.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 30, 2000, at 19:20:40
In reply to Re: it's your right to die, posted by pullmarine on September 30, 2000, at 14:45:29
> I really do wish they had less violent methods at their disposal.
I understand, but I don't think I can consider it supportive to spell out methods, so I've deleted that section of your post.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 30, 2000, at 19:22:43
In reply to Re: it's your right to die, posted by tina on September 30, 2000, at 18:47:02
> Don't try to justify your own ridiculous rantings...
Different points of view are fine, and in fact encouraged, but please be civil when expressing them. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by JaneST on September 30, 2000, at 20:17:18
In reply to Re: it's your right to die, posted by Dr. Bob on September 30, 2000, at 19:20:40
> > I really do wish they had less violent methods at their disposal.
>
> I understand, but I don't think I can consider it supportive to spell out methods, so I've deleted that section of your post.
>
> BobThank you, Dr. Bob.
Sincerely,
Jane
Posted by Cindy W on September 30, 2000, at 22:14:24
In reply to Re: it's your right to die » Dr. Bob, posted by JaneST on September 30, 2000, at 20:17:18
> > > I really do wish they had less violent methods at their disposal.
> >
> > I understand, but I don't think I can consider it supportive to spell out methods, so I've deleted that section of your post.
> >
> > Bob
>
> Thank you, Dr. Bob.
>
> Sincerely,
> JaneAlso wanted to thank you, Dr. Bob, for deleting the suicide methods and promoting civility...Cindy W
Posted by Racer on September 30, 2000, at 22:42:55
In reply to Re: it's your right to die, posted by Cindy W on September 30, 2000, at 22:14:24
My father died several years ago, painfully and alone, without ever having done anything at all worth remembering. All he had were failures and misery. You wanna know why I get angry about that? He had opportunities all his life to make that life better. You know what he did about it? NOTHING. Not one damn thing. All he ever did was run away. And he couldn't even say that he didn't hurt anyone. He hurt almost everyone in his life.
I've been miserable. The doctor I was assigned by the county when I was last depressed and uninsured told me that the drugs were just fine, working as expected, but I couldn't expect to feel any relief because I was too screwed up! You think I didn't think about grabbing a gun???
Here's something you're not thinking about: reality. You married your wife because you thought well of her. At least, I imagine you did. Do you have any idea what really happens when someone dies by gunshot? First of all, it's not easy to clean up that sort of mess. Secondly, did you know that it's illegal to do it yourself in many areas? Blood, after all, is hazardous waste! Think of the expenses your wife would incur at a time when she's least able to deal with it. And guess what, she'll have to deal with it. There's no agency to step in and fix things for her. Do you really want her to have to go through the horrors of that just because you ran away? She'll also be facing the pain of you running away from her in such a terrible way.
And you know what else? You not only hurt everyone around you if you do any such thing, but you cheat yourself out of the chance to experience something better. That's like cheating at solitaire. How can anyone respect someone who cheats at solitaire?
Now, I've expressed my anger and hope that someone reminds me of this next time I'm suicidal.
ToddFromPhoenix, I truly hope you find something to relieve your depression. My grandparents used to live on East Monterosa, back in the 60s and 70s, and I remember how much I loved being in Phoenix with them. I used to collect rocks in a park there, and found the best crystals I'd ever seen there. Tiny geods, with quartz crystals as delicate as pixie hair.
Here's hoping that JC helps, and that you find relief. But damn it to hell, don't find relief for yourself by committing your wife to hell!
Posted by SLS on October 1, 2000, at 0:13:18
In reply to Now I'm angry, ToddFromPhoenix, because..., posted by Racer on September 30, 2000, at 22:42:55
I know.
I am always angry when I hear of someone who has ended their own life because they were in so much pain. Mental or physical.
I work very hard to avoid saying "God damn it!" I always say "gosh darn it" as a substitute. I rarely slip. However, when my next door neighbor told me that another neighbor's daughter, who I had met, suffering from major depression killed herself, I was very cognizant and purposeful of my instantaneous reaction, "GOD DAMN IT!" Boy, was I pissed. God damn it. I still am.
> My father died several years ago, painfully and alone,
I'm sorry. I can't imagine such a thing. Both of my parents are still living.
> without ever having done anything at all worth remembering.
Perhaps he did. You're here.
> All he had were failures and misery.
According to whom?
> You wanna know why I get angry about that? He had opportunities all his life to make that life better. You know what he did about it? NOTHING. Not one damn thing. All he ever did was run away. And he couldn't even say that he didn't hurt anyone. He hurt almost everyone in his life.
I have compassion for your father. I know people like him. I want better for them and everyone around them.
> I've been miserable. The doctor I was assigned by the county when I was last depressed and uninsured told me that the drugs were just fine, working as expected, but I couldn't expect to feel any relief because I was too screwed up! You think I didn't think about grabbing a gun???
Did your father commit suicide?
> Here's something you're not thinking about: reality.
Who's?
> You married your wife because you thought well of her. At least, I imagine you did. Do you have any idea what really happens when someone dies by gunshot?
== >
I cannot share your reality of priorities and perceptions of import.
-----------------------------------------------------
> First of all, it's not easy to clean up that sort of mess.
> Secondly, did you know that it's illegal to do it yourself in many areas?
> Blood, after all, is hazardous waste!
> Think of the expenses your wife would incur at a time when she's least able to deal with it.
> And guess what, she'll have to deal with it.
She doesn't have to. But we hope she would.
> There's no agency to step in and fix things for her.
"And guess what, she'll have to deal with it."
There are a plethora of agencies that can help her deal with it.
-----------------------------------------------------
> Do you really want her to have to go through the horrors of that just because you ran away? She'll also be facing the pain of you running away from her in such a terrible way.
People often get over loss. No one gets over extant pain - de facto.
> And you know what else? You not only hurt everyone around you if you do any such thing,
Everyone around him probably would be hurt, however...
I find this to be the most selfish argument proposed against someone's decision to do something that might be in their best interests - or even in their worst interests. "Who's Life is it Anyway?" Who's interests are more important, yours or mine? Who's right is greater to be more interested in himself than others, yours or mine? Who would know better what is best for me, you or me? Possibly you. I have been known to exercise bad judgment when deciding what is best for me. This is especially true when I am depressed or in pain. Of course, suicide is not in everyone's best interests. You and I both know that for sure. However, do either of us know for sure that it is no one's best interest to bring their life to a deliberated endpoint. Why do people put their dogs to sleep? I hope you would exceed to someone's request to be treated no worse than a dog.
Euthanasia? What about autoeuthanasia?
I came up with the word "autoeuthanasia" many years ago in an effort to delineate it from other types of suicide. I will fight for my right to exercise it for as long as I live, whether or not I exercise it.
> but you cheat yourself out of the chance to experience something better.
I know this is a stupid question, but I have to ask it. Are you a fortune teller? Chance is an abstraction in that it is nothing more than conceivable. Opportunity is to be extant. Can you guarantee someone that an opportunity will present itself to them? Can you tell them how long they must endure excruciating pain before it does?
> That's like cheating at solitaire.
You can cheat at solitaire. You can't cheat pain or death. Even morphine can't help many cancer victims cheat their pain.
> How can anyone respect someone who cheats at solitaire?
I can. Sometimes it feels good to cheat at SOLITAIRE. I like to feel good. In this game, it is one's SOLITARY discretion as to if and when. But, after all, it is just a game.
> Now, I've expressed my anger and hope that someone reminds me of this next time I'm suicidal.
Whatever it takes. I will also try other things to help you save your life. Life is precious.
Pain is sometimes transient. Sometimes not.
> Here's hoping that JC helps, and that you find relief. But damn it to hell, don't find relief for yourself by committing your wife to hell!
Whatever it takes.
God bless us all.
- Scott
Posted by Racer on October 1, 2000, at 0:43:29
In reply to Re: Now I'm angry, ToddFromPhoenix, because..., posted by SLS on October 1, 2000, at 0:13:18
> > without ever having done anything at all worth remembering.
>
> Perhaps he did. You're here.He was in the room when I was conceived. You really can't say he did a whole lot more. He ran away. It was too hard to behave like a grown up.
>
> > All he had were failures and misery.
>
> According to whom?Believe me, he'd tell you the same thing.
>
> > You wanna know why I get angry about that? He had opportunities all his life to make that life better. You know what he did about it? NOTHING. Not one damn thing. All he ever did was run away. And he couldn't even say that he didn't hurt anyone. He hurt almost everyone in his life.
>
> I have compassion for your father. I know people like him. I want better for them and everyone around them.I have limited compassion for people like my father. Remember, a lot of people were hurt by his refusal to do anything for himself.
>
>
> > Here's something you're not thinking about: reality.
>
> > You married your wife because you thought well of her. At least, I imagine you did. Do you have any idea what really happens when someone dies by gunshot?
>
> == >
>
> I cannot share your reality of priorities and perceptions of import.I wanted to remind ToddFromPhoenix that there were practical consequences, as well as emotional, to violent death. It's all very well to say, "gee, everyone will get over my death, they'll be better off without me anyway" without looking to the practical aftermath: bills, arrangements, etc. It's not that that's the only priority I had. Only that it's something he probably hadn't really thought of.
This, by the way, is also one of the things which has stopped me in the past.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> "And guess what, she'll have to deal with it."
>
> There are a plethora of agencies that can help her deal with it.And during her great pain, she'll have to find them -- and PAY FOR them. Aside from the pain and suffering, do you have any idea how expensive death is??
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> > Do you really want her to have to go through the horrors of that just because you ran away? She'll also be facing the pain of you running away from her in such a terrible way.
>
> People often get over loss. No one gets over extant pain - de facto.?? Are you saying that no one ever feels better? Hell, I feel much better now than I did a year ago.
>
>
> Euthanasia? What about autoeuthanasia?Great argument, and one I think most of us have tried. I'm not going to join in with you here, because I think it's too easy an answer, and that it's too easy to take another step down this slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? At physical illness? Disability? Depression? CURABLE illness? Acne??
I wanted to encourage life, by any means. I'll never tell you all life is precious. Ted Bundy, for example, chose to make his life less worthy than many others. I'm not against the death penalty. But anyone who could write what Todd wrote above, that person IS precious. His life is precious, and he has a lot to offer. I won't do anything to encourage him to make excuses for running away.
>
>
> I know this is a stupid question, but I have to ask it. Are you a fortune teller? Chance is an abstraction in that it is nothing more than conceivable. Opportunity is to be extant. Can you guarantee someone that an opportunity will present itself to them? Can you tell them how long they must endure excruciating pain before it does?Of course not. I do know, though, that we can survive a lot of pain. Depression is something which can be overcome. And I'd like to remind you that I'm not suggesting to Todd that he do anything I haven't done myself. I survived! Life is hard, problems hang on, I'm still fighting my way back. But you know what? I survived! Maybe it's just me, but I'd say it's worth it.
Now, good luck everyone, and may your suffering be relieved. But for heaven's sake, don't end your suffering by making everyone else hurt more than you do now. If you've just got to do that, do it the way I do: call 'em up and whine at them! Equalize the pain, talk through your nose! Make 'em suffer: tell them all about what led up to the discovery of antisepsis.But don't choose a permanent end to temporary pain.
Posted by pullmarine on October 1, 2000, at 4:12:08
In reply to Re: Now I'm angry, ToddFromPhoenix, because..., posted by SLS on October 1, 2000, at 0:13:18
beautifully put. could not have done a better job myself. You coined the word autoeuthanasia,and i coined the term: post-natal abortion. I consider my life to be a living hell. it's been this way since my teens, and personally, I look forward to dying, and I will do anything I can to speed up the process. I will never deny information to someone who truly wishes to die.
JOHN
>
> I am always angry when I hear of someone who has ended their own life because they were in so much pain. Mental or physical.
>
> I work very hard to avoid saying "God damn it!" I always say "gosh darn it" as a substitute. I rarely slip. However, when my next door neighbor told me that another neighbor's daughter, who I had met, suffering from major depression killed herself, I was very cognizant and purposeful of my instantaneous reaction, "GOD DAMN IT!" Boy, was I pissed. God damn it. I still am.
>
> > My father died several years ago, painfully and alone,
>
> I'm sorry. I can't imagine such a thing. Both of my parents are still living.
>
> > without ever having done anything at all worth remembering.
>
> Perhaps he did. You're here.
>
> > All he had were failures and misery.
>
> According to whom?
>
> > You wanna know why I get angry about that? He had opportunities all his life to make that life better. You know what he did about it? NOTHING. Not one damn thing. All he ever did was run away. And he couldn't even say that he didn't hurt anyone. He hurt almost everyone in his life.
>
> I have compassion for your father. I know people like him. I want better for them and everyone around them.
>
> > I've been miserable. The doctor I was assigned by the county when I was last depressed and uninsured told me that the drugs were just fine, working as expected, but I couldn't expect to feel any relief because I was too screwed up! You think I didn't think about grabbing a gun???
>
> Did your father commit suicide?
>
> > Here's something you're not thinking about: reality.
>
> Who's?
>
> > You married your wife because you thought well of her. At least, I imagine you did. Do you have any idea what really happens when someone dies by gunshot?
>
> == >
>
> I cannot share your reality of priorities and perceptions of import.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> > First of all, it's not easy to clean up that sort of mess.
>
> > Secondly, did you know that it's illegal to do it yourself in many areas?
>
> > Blood, after all, is hazardous waste!
>
> > Think of the expenses your wife would incur at a time when she's least able to deal with it.
>
> > And guess what, she'll have to deal with it.
>
> She doesn't have to. But we hope she would.
>
> > There's no agency to step in and fix things for her.
>
> "And guess what, she'll have to deal with it."
>
> There are a plethora of agencies that can help her deal with it.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> > Do you really want her to have to go through the horrors of that just because you ran away? She'll also be facing the pain of you running away from her in such a terrible way.
>
> People often get over loss. No one gets over extant pain - de facto.
>
> > And you know what else? You not only hurt everyone around you if you do any such thing,
>
> Everyone around him probably would be hurt, however...
>
> I find this to be the most selfish argument proposed against someone's decision to do something that might be in their best interests - or even in their worst interests. "Who's Life is it Anyway?" Who's interests are more important, yours or mine? Who's right is greater to be more interested in himself than others, yours or mine? Who would know better what is best for me, you or me? Possibly you. I have been known to exercise bad judgment when deciding what is best for me. This is especially true when I am depressed or in pain. Of course, suicide is not in everyone's best interests. You and I both know that for sure. However, do either of us know for sure that it is no one's best interest to bring their life to a deliberated endpoint. Why do people put their dogs to sleep? I hope you would exceed to someone's request to be treated no worse than a dog.
>
> Euthanasia? What about autoeuthanasia?
>
> I came up with the word "autoeuthanasia" many years ago in an effort to delineate it from other types of suicide. I will fight for my right to exercise it for as long as I live, whether or not I exercise it.
>
> > but you cheat yourself out of the chance to experience something better.
>
> I know this is a stupid question, but I have to ask it. Are you a fortune teller? Chance is an abstraction in that it is nothing more than conceivable. Opportunity is to be extant. Can you guarantee someone that an opportunity will present itself to them? Can you tell them how long they must endure excruciating pain before it does?
>
> > That's like cheating at solitaire.
>
> You can cheat at solitaire. You can't cheat pain or death. Even morphine can't help many cancer victims cheat their pain.
>
> > How can anyone respect someone who cheats at solitaire?
>
> I can. Sometimes it feels good to cheat at SOLITAIRE. I like to feel good. In this game, it is one's SOLITARY discretion as to if and when. But, after all, it is just a game.
>
> > Now, I've expressed my anger and hope that someone reminds me of this next time I'm suicidal.
>
> Whatever it takes. I will also try other things to help you save your life. Life is precious.
>
> Pain is sometimes transient. Sometimes not.
>
> > Here's hoping that JC helps, and that you find relief. But damn it to hell, don't find relief for yourself by committing your wife to hell!
>
> Whatever it takes.
>
> God bless us all.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on October 1, 2000, at 6:19:31
In reply to Re: Now I'm angry, ToddFromPhoenix, because... » SLS, posted by Racer on October 1, 2000, at 0:43:29
> I wanted to remind ToddFromPhoenix that there were practical consequences, as well as emotional, to violent death. It's all very well to say, "gee, everyone will get over my death, they'll be better off without me anyway" without looking to the practical aftermath: bills, arrangements, etc. It's not that that's the only priority I had. Only that it's something he probably hadn't really thought of.
O.K. I understand what you mean now.
> This, by the way, is also one of the things which has stopped me in the past.
I know that it has stopped many, many people, thank God. I can't say that it has ever entered into my own equation, though. However, the crushing agony that my family would suffer is something that grieves me to imagine.
> And during her great pain, she'll have to find them -- and PAY FOR them. Aside from the pain and suffering, do you have any idea how expensive death is??
Listen, the world is full of the financial hardships that death can produce.
There are free and "sliding-scale" programs available for supporting the grieved. I imagine there are free support groups for survivors of suicide. I don't know. I guess it depends upon whether or not someone lives in a city or a suburb.
> > People often get over loss. No one gets over extant pain - de facto.
> ?? Are you saying that no one ever feels better?
No. What I meant is that for any given moment that one feels pain, they have not escaped it. They can not, for they have already felt it. If someone is suffering from a severe biogenic depression that is not responsive to treatment, there is no escape from the torturous pain other than the loss or numbing of consciousness.
> Hell, I feel much better now than I did a year ago.
I feel joy for to know this of you.
> Great argument, and one I think most of us have tried. I'm not going to join in with you here, because I think it's too easy an answer, and that it's too easy to take another step down this slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? At physical illness? Disability? Depression? CURABLE illness? Acne??
Yes. This is the most difficult part of the whole issue. I don't know where to draw a line. However, I recognize that somewhere in the world somewhere in time, there are instances that occupy the tragic side of this line. I cannot treat this as a black and white, yes or no, or philosophical issue. It is much bigger than philosophy, in my opinion. Each individual and their circumstance is unique. I'm not sure that a concrete algorithm to evaluate "eligibility" is possible or desirable.
> I wanted to encourage life, by any means. I'll never tell you all life is precious. Ted Bundy, for example, chose to make his life less worthy than many others. I'm not against the death penalty. But anyone who could write what Todd wrote above, that person IS precious. His life is precious, and he has a lot to offer.
I strongly agree.
> I won't do anything to encourage him to make excuses for running away.
> > I know this is a stupid question, but I have to ask it. Are you a fortune teller? Chance is an abstraction in that it is nothing more than conceivable. Opportunity is to be extant. Can you guarantee someone that an opportunity will present itself to them? Can you tell them how long they must endure excruciating pain before it does?
> Of course not. I do know, though, that we can survive a lot of pain.
"A lot"? You have betrayed the complexity and painful contemplation of this issue. So, friend, where do *you* concede a line be drawn whereupon more-than-a-lot is too much?
> Depression is something which can be overcome.
For me, I hope you are right. I have invested 23 years of painful endurance and 18 years of drugs and hope and failure. Please guarantee me that my neurophysiological disorder will be successfully treated before I die. I'll be your best friend... (not such a good deal for you) :-)
You do not know if my depression will be overcome before my body is expended. Perhaps there is more to depressive illnesses you might be interested to investigate. It doesn't appear to me that you fully appreciate the biological nature of many people's predicament.
> And I'd like to remind you that I'm not suggesting to Todd that he do anything I haven't done myself. I survived!
But you don't know what things you haven't done that might be right for Todd. You are not him.
> Life is hard, problems hang on, I'm still fighting my way back. But you know what? I survived!
I am truly heartened to know this of you. Really.
> Maybe it's just me, but I'd say it's worth it.
For you.
I am SURE that you do not know how hard life can be. I know that it can be harder than you dare imagine. I know that it can be harder than you can imagine should you dare to. This is also true of me.
> Now, good luck everyone, and may your suffering be relieved.
> But for heaven's sake, don't end your suffering by making everyone else hurt more than you do now.
At this juncture, I would encourage anyone interested in this subject to acknowledge that they do not know what it is like to be every person in the world. There is much here to contemplate.
> If you've just got to do that, do it the way I do: call 'em up and whine at them! Equalize the pain, talk through your nose! Make 'em suffer: tell them all about what led up to the discovery of antisepsis.
Whatever it takes.
> But don't choose a permanent end to temporary pain.
You can't imagine.
Be well, Racer. You are a kind and compassionate human being. I like you. You deserve to continue succeeding in your struggles and fully realize the joys that you seem destined to experience.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on October 1, 2000, at 6:33:42
In reply to They shoot horses, don't they?, posted by pullmarine on October 1, 2000, at 4:12:08
> beautifully put. could not have done a better job myself. You coined the word autoeuthanasia,and i coined the term: post-natal abortion. I consider my life to be a living hell. it's been this way since my teens, and personally, I look forward to dying, and I will do anything I can to speed up the process. I will never deny information to someone who truly wishes to die.
>
> JOHN
Dear John,What is it like to be you?
Perhaps there are avenues you have not explored or educated yourself about. Maybe there is an answer for you - an end to your hell. I know it doesn't make sense to you that things can be much better and life be worth living for you.
What do you suffer from? Maybe I can throw out a few ideas. I thought I had tried everything until a new doctor showed me all the things I haven't tried. I have a concrete reason to have hope. There are no guarantees of success, but guarantees that I have an opportunity to try things that are logical, that have been successfully used before, and have a legitimate chance of working should I choose to commit myself to a little more time.
I hope we can find such things for you. If you stop telling people how to die, maybe I'll tell you how to live. No guarantees.
(You can't blame a guy for trying).
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Racer on October 1, 2000, at 13:52:22
In reply to Re: They shoot horses, don't they? » pullmarine, posted by SLS on October 1, 2000, at 6:33:42
First of all, 'post natal abortion' comes from a Philip K. Dick novel. As Frederic Goudy once said, 'isn't it awful that all our best ideas were stolen by those old guys so long ago?'
Secondly, with advances in veterinary medicine, they really don't shoot horses anymore. Thank god.
Third, I guess I misunderstood Scott's point of view last night when I was over the top. It sounds as though we're both on the side of life.
Here's what helped me through the darkest moments: I made a deal with myself, that I knew how to end my pain, but I would wait until a specific event occurred to see if I would feel better. For example, I'd wait until after my next dr's appointment, and see if she'd change my meds. If the meds changed, I'd give it a month, or a week, or whatever, to see if the new drugs helped.
Ending pain is permanent, you'll never know if the next thing you tried might have helped. So, I bargained with myself, that I'd make the effort a little longer, and see if I'd finally found the thing which did help.
Personally, I'm glad I waited, since I have joy in my life I thought I'd never experience. I'd have missed all this if I'd run away two years ago.
I hope that John's pain will ease, that he'll keep trying, and that he'll be glad he waited.
Posted by Racer on October 2, 2000, at 1:43:10
In reply to Re: Now I'm angry, ToddFromPhoenix, because... » Racer, posted by SLS on October 1, 2000, at 6:19:31
>
> > And during her great pain, she'll have to find them -- and PAY FOR them. Aside from the pain and suffering, do you have any idea how expensive death is??
>
> Listen, the world is full of the financial hardships that death can produce.
>
> There are free and "sliding-scale" programs available for supporting the grieved. I imagine there are free support groups for survivors of suicide. I don't know. I guess it depends upon whether or not someone lives in a city or a suburb.The support groups may be sliding scale, but the biological clean up costs big bux. An employee of mine lost his grandfather to a self-inflicted gunshot about 18 months ago. It was terrible, and the money for the cleanup was unexpected and very significant. And no, there was no financial assistance, and no, they were compelled to pay someone else to do it. Hazardous biological waste.
> > Of course not. I do know, though, that we can survive a lot of pain.
>
> "A lot"? You have betrayed the complexity and painful contemplation of this issue. So, friend, where do *you* concede a line be drawn whereupon more-than-a-lot is too much?If, as I suspect, you're suggesting that I underestimate the pain and complexity of depression, please sit back for a moment and ask why I'd be here if I didn't have some clue about depression? Or ask one of the old timers here, like stjames, whether they think I have maybe an inkling about it...
>
> > Depression is something which can be overcome.
>
> For me, I hope you are right. I have invested 23 years of painful endurance and 18 years of drugs and hope and failure. Please guarantee me that my neurophysiological disorder will be successfully treated before I die. I'll be your best friend... (not such a good deal for you) :-)I've had recurring depressions for almost 30 years, since late childhood/early adolescence. My first experience of anti-depressants came a decade into a severe depression which made it difficult for me to get through school. Tricyclics, with major side effects including a 70# weight gain. Then Paxil, a decade later, with a 50# weight gain and other side effects. Now, I'm on a drug cocktail, and am fairly stable. I'm hoping to go off the meds again next year, when I'll have been stable for about two years.
>
> I am SURE that you do not know how hard life can be. I know that it can be harder than you dare imagine. I know that it can be harder than you can imagine should you dare to. This is also true of me.Scott, you have NO right to say that to me. Just as you say I couldn't possibly know how hard someone else's life has been, you can't know how hard my life has been!
Let's see, should we have a test to see who deserves the right to claim the title of 'depressed individual' or maybe pin a list of failed drugs to our sleeves? Listen, I am not in competition with you. I'm just trying to offer some hope.
Two years ago I was actively suicidal, locked up on a 5150 in the county hospital, uninsured, unemployed, isolated from everyone, dealing with a doctor who pushed drugs at me despite major side effects (BP so low I couldn't walk unassisted), and hardly able to pay my bills. My mother, who thinks that depression is weak will, had to loan me money for bills, to keep a roof over my head. I couldn't get drugs, because of the cost. The doctor told me that the drugs were fine, even when I couldn't keep any food down because of them.
Believe me, I do know something about how bad it can get.
And I don't believe that my recovery is an anomoly. I think that if you give up and run away, you'll never know if you could recover too.
I will probably have to take drugs again down the line. I will probably have another depressive episode. It's still worth it to experience the life I'm building back up for myself.
Every book I read, every new song I hear, they're all things I'd have missed out on if I'd taken the coward's way out. I'm glad to have survived. I hope you do too.
Posted by Racer on October 2, 2000, at 1:44:53
In reply to Re: Now I'm angry, ToddFromPhoenix, because... » Racer, posted by SLS on October 1, 2000, at 6:19:31
How are you feeling now? Did you have any idea you'd be starting anything like this?
I do hope it's helped at least a bit to see so much energy on this topic. ANd I really hope you are doing better.
Posted by SLS on October 2, 2000, at 9:35:29
In reply to Re: Now I'm angry, ToddFromPhoenix, because... » SLS, posted by Racer on October 2, 2000, at 1:43:10
Hi Racer.
> > > And during her great pain, she'll have to find them -- and PAY FOR them. Aside from the pain and suffering, do you have any idea how expensive death is??
> > Listen, the world is full of the financial hardships that death can produce.
> > There are free and "sliding-scale" programs available for supporting the grieved. I imagine there are free support groups for survivors of suicide. I don't know. I guess it depends upon whether or not someone lives in a city or a suburb.
> The support groups may be sliding scale, but the biological clean up costs big bux. An employee of mine lost his grandfather to a self-inflicted gunshot about 18 months ago. It was terrible, and the money for the cleanup was unexpected and very significant. And no, there was no financial assistance, and no, they were compelled to pay someone else to do it. Hazardous biological waste.
It is interesting how little attention I have paid to such a real and significant aspect of an event that we see and here of in the media every day. I didn't know. I don't recall ever seeing a news story devote a single second of coverage to the condition of the room in which the deceased has committed his tragic act or how to go about cleaning it up.
This, however, has nothing to do with the extreme conditions that *may* have driven the deceased to take their own life. If after years of excruciating pain, I have RATIONALLY and deliberatively decided that it was time to go, I don't think pointing a finger at me to consider the mess and expense I would create is going to weigh heavily on the other side of the balance scale. To have even considered the logistical consequences to others as an argument to take precedence over what goes into making a decision to commit suicide to me is sad. It helps serve to demonstrate to me the *lack* of acknowledgment of the predicament of the suffering and the decision making process that the sufferer has agonized with for what perhaps has seemed like an eternity of inflicted torture. Truly, LIFE has been the sole criminal for some individuals in this world. Think about it.
How would you regard the decision of a prisoner of war who, after having had the skin ripped off his back by his torturers and sprayed with acid, has bitten into the cyanide capsule he has been hiding buccally? By the way, this day follows the one they had done the same thing with his torso. The torturers are intent on keeping him alive as long as possible. They believe he knows where a single land-mine is hidden. He doesn't. This man is your brother.
Of course, you and I both know that this sort of thing has never happened. Right?
> > > Of course not. I do know, though, that we can survive a lot of pain.
> > "A lot"? You have betrayed the complexity and painful contemplation of this issue. So, friend, where do *you* concede a line be drawn whereupon more-than-a-lot is too much?
> If, as I suspect, you're suggesting that I underestimate the pain and complexity of depression, please sit back for a moment and ask why I'd be here if I didn't have some clue about depression? Or ask one of the old timers here, like stjames, whether they think I have maybe an inkling about it...
Yes, you do have an inkling.
To quote what was lost in my previous post:
"At this juncture, I would encourage anyone interested in this subject to acknowledge that they do not know what it is like to be every person in the world. There is much here to contemplate."
> > > Depression is something which can be overcome.
> > For me, I hope you are right. I have invested 23 years of painful endurance and 18 years of drugs and hope and failure. Please guarantee me that my neurophysiological disorder will be successfully treated before I die. I'll be your best friend... (not such a good deal for you) :-)
> I've had recurring depressions for almost 30 years, since late childhood/early adolescence. My first experience of anti-depressants came a decade into a severe depression which made it difficult for me to get through school. Tricyclics, with major side effects including a 70# weight gain. Then Paxil, a decade later, with a 50# weight gain and other side effects. Now, I'm on a drug cocktail, and am fairly stable. I'm hoping to go off the meds again next year, when I'll have been stable for about two years.
> > I am SURE that you do not know how hard life can be. I know that it can be harder than you dare imagine. I know that it can be harder than you can imagine should you dare to. This is also true of me.
See your brother above.
> Scott, you have NO right to say that to me.
I have every right to. I owe this to the First Ammendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, for which many have suffered and died for. I appreciate their suffering and hardship. I have the privilege to say it here. I have the motivation to respond to what you have already said. I have the right to be wrong. Am I?
> Just as you say I couldn't possibly know how hard someone else's life has been, you can't know how hard my life has been!
Again, I hope I fully demonstrated in my previous post that I am very aware of this.
"At this juncture, I would encourage anyone interested in this subject to acknowledge that they do not know what it is like to be every person in the world. There is much here to contemplate."
Do you know how hard your brother's day has been? I don't. I can't.
> Let's see, should we have a test to see who deserves the right to claim the title of 'depressed individual' or maybe pin a list of failed drugs to our sleeves?
Ouch.
To quote you:
"Scott, you have NO right to say that to me."
No sweat.
> Listen, I am not in competition with you. I'm just trying to offer some hope.
> Two years ago I was actively suicidal, locked up on a 5150 in the county hospital, uninsured, unemployed, isolated from everyone, dealing with a doctor who pushed drugs at me despite major side effects (BP so low I couldn't walk unassisted), and hardly able to pay my bills. My mother, who thinks that depression is weak will, had to loan me money for bills, to keep a roof over my head. I couldn't get drugs, because of the cost. The doctor told me that the drugs were fine, even when I couldn't keep any food down because of them.
> Believe me, I do know something about how bad it can get.
No, you don't.
> And I don't believe that my recovery is an anomaly. I think that if you give up and run away, you'll never know if you could recover too.
Neither do I. It is the anomaly for which you cannot identify with. To try to avoid accusations of narcissism, please see my quote above.
> I will probably have to take drugs again down the line. I will probably have another depressive episode. It's still worth it to experience the life I'm building back up for myself.
> Every book I read, every new song I hear, they're all things I'd have missed out on if I'd taken the coward's way out. I'm glad to have survived. I hope you do too.
You have indeed suffered and lost much. Only you can know how much. Only you can know as to when more-than-a-lot becomes too much.
If more-than-a-lot does become too much for you, I will try to cure you if I can, easy your pain if I can, help you find someone who can if I can, ask you what I can do for you, and try to convince you to allow more time and stay alive. I will NOT try to persuade you not to end your life by telling you what a mess you would make for everyone to clean up and make you feel guilty for not having taken that into consideration. Well, perhaps I would. It might work.
Perhaps your condition is chronic and untreatable. Perhaps you are a cancer patient with six months to live and suffering excruciating pain for which there is no escape, not even with morphine. You have thought it over. You beg everyone around you to help you die. When it comes right down to it, it is the pain and agony you suffer that I would be most wanting to ease. Whatever it takes.
Perhaps you don't have to shoot the horse.
Perhaps, if things were different, the same act would be accomplished without making a mess.
Let's just agree that we both have a different hierarchy of priorities, and that we differ in how we feel about another's pain we cannot know.
There is much here to contemplate.
- Scott
Posted by PuraVida on October 2, 2000, at 14:55:35
In reply to Re: It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by stephanie l. on October 2, 2000, at 11:00:19
To all,
Why would someone kill themselves if they had the flu? Yes, depression and mental illnesses are terrible, but most of the time, with meds and some patience and effort, we do get better. I'm better now, still on meds, and just came on this site for any info on contradictions between serzone and ginko biloba. I am really sad to see such a long post about suicide. Well, I guess its great that people are posting, and not doing it, but I can't believe how many of you think that its a solution.
I've been battling depression for nearly six years now, and I understand your pain, I do. I've spent months on end in bed, damaged jobs and relationships, etc. I've damaged my credit rating, spent tons on late fees, and who knows what else. No, life shouldn't be so painful, and yes, depression sucks. BUT, YOU WILL GET OUT OF THE HOLE! There is a light at the end of the tunnel - you MUST tell yourself this everyday. I can't believe how differently I can see things now - I can't beleive I ever even thought about not participating in the live. Take your meds, eat good foods, get out doors, exercise, and surround yourself with positive experiences and people. Hypnotherapy, as well as traditional therapy, helped me. So did getting massages and mainucures, and even the tanning bed in the winter! Treat yourself well. Volunteer to raise a dog for the blind, or teach kids how to read. Best yet - get a change of scenery - pack a backpack with a journal and your meds and hike a mountain or catch a flight to India to see how much "pain" others experience. Why do our Western cultures get depressed, when life flows so regularly in other areas of the world? Travel to other countries is possible the best therapy I've found. It's a pain to get yourself there, but once you do, it can be very freeing.
Maybe you are "dead" inside because your environment "killed" you - but really, you've just gone into hibernation. Go live a little! Life is a process, not a goal - take a step each day and you'll be suprised at how it starts to be easier. Its when we sit still for so long, or push ourselves too hard that it takes so much effort to take steps, so take one everyday, no more no less, and off you'll go.
Please don't think I'm a Polyanna who had a bit of a bad mood. I still battle with indicators that I may slip back into the whole, but I use the advice I've just given to you, above, and I've managed to be functional for the past year, and I think I can say I've managed to be pretty happy about myself for the past 6 months or so. There are a bunch of us out here who have made it out of the tunnel - we've got big old lights we want you to see so that you can join us. Good luck!
Liz
Posted by SLS on October 3, 2000, at 18:36:29
In reply to To all: Re: I'll die if I want to. , posted by PuraVida on October 2, 2000, at 14:55:35
Dear Liz,
I just wanted to say hi and offer you my warm smile for having read your post. It was wonderful.
Just in case there is any confusion as to my belief system:
I do not advocate encouraging or allowing someone to commit suicide because they are depressed, especially when they are depressed.
Thank you for providing me with such a positive and constructive perspective and suggesting things I can do to try to make things better for myself.
Thank again.
- Scott> To all,
>
> Why would someone kill themselves if they had the flu? Yes, depression and mental illnesses are terrible, but most of the time, with meds and some patience and effort, we do get better. I'm better now, still on meds, and just came on this site for any info on contradictions between serzone and ginko biloba. I am really sad to see such a long post about suicide. Well, I guess its great that people are posting, and not doing it, but I can't believe how many of you think that its a solution.
>
> I've been battling depression for nearly six years now, and I understand your pain, I do. I've spent months on end in bed, damaged jobs and relationships, etc. I've damaged my credit rating, spent tons on late fees, and who knows what else. No, life shouldn't be so painful, and yes, depression sucks. BUT, YOU WILL GET OUT OF THE HOLE! There is a light at the end of the tunnel - you MUST tell yourself this everyday. I can't believe how differently I can see things now - I can't beleive I ever even thought about not participating in the live. Take your meds, eat good foods, get out doors, exercise, and surround yourself with positive experiences and people. Hypnotherapy, as well as traditional therapy, helped me. So did getting massages and mainucures, and even the tanning bed in the winter! Treat yourself well. Volunteer to raise a dog for the blind, or teach kids how to read. Best yet - get a change of scenery - pack a backpack with a journal and your meds and hike a mountain or catch a flight to India to see how much "pain" others experience. Why do our Western cultures get depressed, when life flows so regularly in other areas of the world? Travel to other countries is possible the best therapy I've found. It's a pain to get yourself there, but once you do, it can be very freeing.
>
> Maybe you are "dead" inside because your environment "killed" you - but really, you've just gone into hibernation. Go live a little! Life is a process, not a goal - take a step each day and you'll be suprised at how it starts to be easier. Its when we sit still for so long, or push ourselves too hard that it takes so much effort to take steps, so take one everyday, no more no less, and off you'll go.
>
> Please don't think I'm a Polyanna who had a bit of a bad mood. I still battle with indicators that I may slip back into the whole, but I use the advice I've just given to you, above, and I've managed to be functional for the past year, and I think I can say I've managed to be pretty happy about myself for the past 6 months or so. There are a bunch of us out here who have made it out of the tunnel - we've got big old lights we want you to see so that you can join us. Good luck!
>
> Liz
Posted by jackflash2 on October 8, 2000, at 1:57:06
In reply to It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by Rainwoman on September 28, 2000, at 14:25:47
> I agree with both John and Todd. Everybody's pain is different, and who is to say how you should deal with it. I can see how it is alarming to some to discuss your own demise, especially for someone who has never suffered from depression before, let alone major depression. Lucky for those of you, you still have your survival instinct intact. Mine must've ran out of me with all the tears I have cried over the years. I know all too well nowadays what it feels like to have no hope. If you are already dead on the inside, why continue to suffer and consequently have those around you suffer? And before anybody brings up therapy, I have a very kind therapist whom I actually kind of like. He does try to make me feel better. He thinks that I just need to change my thinking. That if I improve my self esteem and recognize that I am talented, smart, witty(not as witty as Todd though), intelligent and have alot to offer, I will be happy. Sorry, but as dear as he is, he could say all those things to me until his tongue fell off. I can't FEEL any of those things. How can you when pain and sadness just consumes you and hurts so much sometimes that it hurts to breathe. I tried thinking his way, but I am so sick and tired of keeping up that farse. People, in my miserable little mind, can't understand what a person feels until you walk a mile in their shoes. Even then, you're just a mile away and you've got some poor bastards' shoes. My favorite thing is when he says, "Now I want you to promise me, you won't do anything to harm yourself, promise??" Okey, dokey doc, cross my heart, hope to die (oops, you already know that part...). The second favorite thing is, you can call me anytime to talk....yeah to your answering machine. I called that answering machine at 4:00am this morning to say I was having a very hard time and was really down (I didn't mention the fact that I had a "good friend" next to me myself. Only I throw up at the sight of blood. I would end up throwing up stuff I ate last week. That could make for a real long and messy ending. I don't have the courage for that, I didn't much care for half of what I ate last week. It's a good thing too, cause, call me demure, but I don't think that leaving a "I'm contemplating a slash and splash party and you're invited" is proper answering machine etiquette regardless of the hour.).
There are times when etiquette is not the most important thing in the world. And actually, that really doesn't sound like it violates etiquette. :)
I did hear from him at about 2:00 pm today. I don't blame him, I wouldn't want to hear those kind of party plans at 4:00am either. Ah, too many psychos, too little time.
>
> I am supposed to have an appt. with a p-doc next week, but I have done the med treads myself already, and just thinking about being let down again adds a new, not so colorful dimension to my ever present dismay. The only thing I fear, is that wherever you go from here is worse than here, if that could be possible. Another night like last night, and I may not have to wonder.
>
> I have no "safe" place in my childhood. Unless you might consider under the bed. But I lie awake in agony on top of the damn thing, I don't think climbing under it with the dust bunnies is going to bring me any hoorahs. Although it works for my cats.
>
> Anyway, enough of my rambling I just wanted to say I can empathize with what you are saying, and I hope things turn out for the better for everyone than they are for me. And, Todd, I like your dry sense of humor. You probably could write a book. I wouldn't want you to end up a "ghost" writer though! Sorry, poor pun. But, I think if you feel that way and it makes you feel even a little better to post it, I say let it out. I know how you feel.
>
> Rainwoman
>
> Sadness Within
>
> I can fathom reasons to live
> but can't feel any of them.
> Holding out for a hope
> to end this problem.
> In my world every day is full of strife,
> could I just for once
> feel the meaning of my life?
> They say I'm talented
> but I feel no joy,
> it's depression I feel
> talent is a decoy.
> A face to appear in, a mask of deception
> when all there really is,
> is the sadness within.
> I want to be me, for the hopelessness to cease
> for once to feel what everybody sees.
> Just a few moments in time,
> when I can be at peace. --RainwomanWhat do you want out of life?
Posted by coral on October 8, 2000, at 8:10:44
In reply to Re: It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by jackflash2 on October 8, 2000, at 1:57:06
Folks, IMHO, suicide is a viable option. I can't think of anything that is more of an inalienable right than the right to live or die. I went through a severe clinical depression for three and a half years, got the so-called "best" medical and psychiatric advice, including the head of psychiatry at a leading medical university, went on enough meds to fill a pharmacy, went through 11 docs... Other than doc appts., I was a lump on the couch. If my husband hadn't fixed meals and brought them to me, I wouldn't have eaten. For me, depression was like a frozen river. All anyone on the outside sees is ice... but, on the inside, as the ice gets thicker, the pressure from the water continues sto increase and increase unbearably. That depression ended with Zoloft and an amazing psychologist - one full year of both to break free and be healthy again. However, during the depression, had I known that it would never end, I would've committed suicide. The depression was horribly costly in every way; our business plummeted, finances were a disaster, bankruptcy, I threw my husband out (after being separated for a year, we've reconciled and the last six years have been great), and we're still rebuilding our business and financial lives. However, during the depression, I discussed suicide with my husband and explained my position. Undoubtedly, had he "caught" me in the act, he would've intervened and I would've found myself locked up in a psych ward. I told him my decision, not as a threat or call for help, but to let him know that he would not be responsible if I did commit suicide. My brother-in-law committed suicide and I know, first hand, the horrors of suicide on other people, especially the sense of "could I have stopped it?" and that's why I spoke very seriously with my husband. The depression brought an element of unrelenting horror into my life, not anyone's fault, just something that happened, but if it was permanent, I was out of here. I'm on the healing side of my second depressive episode (two months) and the same remedy worked this time, Zoloft and the amazing psychologist. As sad as it is when someone commits suicide, ultimately, it is still that person's choice. As a society, we tend to say if a person has a fatal disease with X number of months to live and is in unrelenting pain, suicide may be understandable. Yet, what is different if a person has depression with YEARS to live? I know for me, I found a solution that works with Zoloft and psychotherapy. Others may not be so lucky, but I do think they have an obligation to make their feelings known to help their survivors understand (as best as possible) that it was a choice the person has made, and that the survivors aren't responsible. Candidly, I also used the thought of suicide as a means of hope . . . "if I can't conquer this, I can end my life" .. . and it was reassuring.
Posted by SLS on October 8, 2000, at 13:38:02
In reply to Re: It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by coral on October 8, 2000, at 8:10:44
The biggest problem with allowing a depressed individual to rationally decide to end their own life is that they are most often not rational. Their judgment is impaired and skewed by the warping of congnition and perception that is the manifestation of the depression itself. Their thought processes are inextricably contained within the confines of a depressed mood, influencing the individual's decision-making processes to draw conclusions that they might not draw in the absence of depression.
Suicidality is often fleeting. Suicide is not.
- Scott> Folks, IMHO, suicide is a viable option. I can't think of anything that is more of an inalienable right than the right to live or die. I went through a severe clinical depression for three and a half years, got the so-called "best" medical and psychiatric advice, including the head of psychiatry at a leading medical university, went on enough meds to fill a pharmacy, went through 11 docs... Other than doc appts., I was a lump on the couch. If my husband hadn't fixed meals and brought them to me, I wouldn't have eaten. For me, depression was like a frozen river. All anyone on the outside sees is ice... but, on the inside, as the ice gets thicker, the pressure from the water continues sto increase and increase unbearably. That depression ended with Zoloft and an amazing psychologist - one full year of both to break free and be healthy again. However, during the depression, had I known that it would never end, I would've committed suicide. The depression was horribly costly in every way; our business plummeted, finances were a disaster, bankruptcy, I threw my husband out (after being separated for a year, we've reconciled and the last six years have been great), and we're still rebuilding our business and financial lives. However, during the depression, I discussed suicide with my husband and explained my position. Undoubtedly, had he "caught" me in the act, he would've intervened and I would've found myself locked up in a psych ward. I told him my decision, not as a threat or call for help, but to let him know that he would not be responsible if I did commit suicide. My brother-in-law committed suicide and I know, first hand, the horrors of suicide on other people, especially the sense of "could I have stopped it?" and that's why I spoke very seriously with my husband. The depression brought an element of unrelenting horror into my life, not anyone's fault, just something that happened, but if it was permanent, I was out of here. I'm on the healing side of my second depressive episode (two months) and the same remedy worked this time, Zoloft and the amazing psychologist. As sad as it is when someone commits suicide, ultimately, it is still that person's choice. As a society, we tend to say if a person has a fatal disease with X number of months to live and is in unrelenting pain, suicide may be understandable. Yet, what is different if a person has depression with YEARS to live? I know for me, I found a solution that works with Zoloft and psychotherapy. Others may not be so lucky, but I do think they have an obligation to make their feelings known to help their survivors understand (as best as possible) that it was a choice the person has made, and that the survivors aren't responsible. Candidly, I also used the thought of suicide as a means of hope . . . "if I can't conquer this, I can end my life" .. . and it was reassuring.
Posted by pullmarine on October 9, 2000, at 4:04:38
In reply to Re: It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by SLS on October 8, 2000, at 13:38:02
> The biggest problem with allowing a depressed individual to rationally decide to end their own life is that they are most often not rational.
1. Rational? according to what or whose standards?
Their judgment is impaired and skewed by the warping of congnition and perception that is the manifestation of the depression itself.
2. Depressed persons have a much better sense and grasp of reality, ask your doc about this and other findings.
Their thought processes are inextricably contained within the confines of a depressed mood, influencing the individual's decision-making processes to draw conclusions that they might not draw in the absence of depression.
3. drawing conclusions from an accurate sense of reality. with thinking that is rational, and well thought out.
4. Suicidality is often fleeting. Suicide is not.
There is something to be said for permanence.John
> - Scott
>
> > Folks, IMHO, suicide is a viable option. I can't think of anything that is more of an inalienable right than the right to live or die. I went through a severe clinical depression for three and a half years, got the so-called "best" medical and psychiatric advice, including the head of psychiatry at a leading medical university, went on enough meds to fill a pharmacy, went through 11 docs... Other than doc appts., I was a lump on the couch. If my husband hadn't fixed meals and brought them to me, I wouldn't have eaten. For me, depression was like a frozen river. All anyone on the outside sees is ice... but, on the inside, as the ice gets thicker, the pressure from the water continues sto increase and increase unbearably. That depression ended with Zoloft and an amazing psychologist - one full year of both to break free and be healthy again. However, during the depression, had I known that it would never end, I would've committed suicide. The depression was horribly costly in every way; our business plummeted, finances were a disaster, bankruptcy, I threw my husband out (after being separated for a year, we've reconciled and the last six years have been great), and we're still rebuilding our business and financial lives. However, during the depression, I discussed suicide with my husband and explained my position. Undoubtedly, had he "caught" me in the act, he would've intervened and I would've found myself locked up in a psych ward. I told him my decision, not as a threat or call for help, but to let him know that he would not be responsible if I did commit suicide. My brother-in-law committed suicide and I know, first hand, the horrors of suicide on other people, especially the sense of "could I have stopped it?" and that's why I spoke very seriously with my husband. The depression brought an element of unrelenting horror into my life, not anyone's fault, just something that happened, but if it was permanent, I was out of here. I'm on the healing side of my second depressive episode (two months) and the same remedy worked this time, Zoloft and the amazing psychologist. As sad as it is when someone commits suicide, ultimately, it is still that person's choice. As a society, we tend to say if a person has a fatal disease with X number of months to live and is in unrelenting pain, suicide may be understandable. Yet, what is different if a person has depression with YEARS to live? I know for me, I found a solution that works with Zoloft and psychotherapy. Others may not be so lucky, but I do think they have an obligation to make their feelings known to help their survivors understand (as best as possible) that it was a choice the person has made, and that the survivors aren't responsible. Candidly, I also used the thought of suicide as a means of hope . . . "if I can't conquer this, I can end my life" .. . and it was reassuring.AMEN,
JOHN
Posted by SLS on October 9, 2000, at 11:11:23
In reply to Re: It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by pullmarine on October 9, 2000, at 4:04:38
> > The biggest problem with allowing a depressed individual to rationally decide to end their own life is that they are most often not rational.> 1. Rational? according to what or whose standards?
If you are truly interested in the subject of how severe depression affects cognition, perception, and reality-testing, I suggest you investigate it. There are decades of inquiry into this matter. Perhaps you will then be able to answer your own question.
Did you know that a depressed individual cannot even perceive properly the emotional content of another human face? (Results of a decade of study of NIMH inpatients in the Department of Biological Psychiatry).
Again, if you are truly interested...
> > Their judgment is impaired and skewed by the warping of congnition and perception that is the manifestation of the depression itself.
> 2. Depressed persons have a much better sense and grasp of reality, ask your doc about this and other findings.
Is this what *your* doctor said? A much better grasp of reality? Give me your doctor's phone number. I think you are lying.
> > Their thought processes are inextricably contained within the confines of a depressed mood, influencing the individual's decision-making processes to draw conclusions that they might not draw in the absence of depression.
> 3. drawing conclusions from an accurate sense of reality. with thinking that is rational, and well thought out.
See your point #1.
> > 4. Suicidality is often fleeting. Suicide is not.
> There is something to be said for permanence.
And what exactly would that be?
I do not feel that depression and rational deliberative thought are mutually exclusive. It is dependent upon the individual's type of depression and the momentary state of brain-mind that they are in. Have you ever heard of "psychotic depression"? You may want to look into the accuracy of the sense of reality of the sufferer of this kind of depression. Just look up the word "psychotic".
It would be extreme to take the position that depression de facto precludes the ability to produce appropriate decisions. I do not believe that the prospect of living a life with a severe case of intractable and torturous psychiatric illness qualifies any less than any other illness for the consideration of autoeuthanasia. However, I don't think the vast majority of depressed individuals who become suicidal qualify. Suicidality is often an impulse to escape an intensification of pain and feelings of doom. The pain and feelings of doom are either transient or treatable. Often, the same person gets suicidal episodically. Their "rational" decision-making processes seem to change with the changes in the severity of their illness. Do you feel it is rational to allow or encourage such an individual to successfully end their own life during such an episode?
I don't.
- Scott
Posted by coral on October 9, 2000, at 17:16:33
In reply to Re: It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by SLS on October 9, 2000, at 11:11:23
"....Suicidality is often an impulse to escape an intensification of pain and feelings of doom.
The pain and feelings of doom are either transient or treatable. Often, the same person gets suicidal episodically. Their "rational" decision-making processes seem to change with the changes in the severity of their illness. Do you feel it is rational to allow or encourage such an individual to successfully end their own life during such an episode?"I think you're confusing "suicidality" with "suicide ideation." Much of what we "thought" we knew about suicide has been debunked, such as those who talk about it, don't do it. We now know that's a myth. Also, it's not easy to commit suicide. Suicide normally requires a great deal of planning for successful execution (sorry.... no pun intended.)
I, too, have been told by therapists, through researching, formal education and by my own personal therapist, that a depressed person's perceptions are more accurate than a non-depressed persons, in many instances. That's part of the difficulty in the role of the therapist, to ascertain which perceptions are accurate and which are distorted, due to the depression. Not surprising, the causes of the depression are almost always linked to accurate perceptions of the depressed person. Rather than being able to handle the situation, for whatever reason, the psyche/brain malfunction, resulting in depression.
As far as "allow or encourage", I have interrupted someone's attempted suicide and would unhesitatingly do so again. No, I would not encourage someone to commit suicide.
I think the point of this discussion is whether someone has the right to commit suicide, and whether it should be considered as a viable option. I also clearly recognize that it's a slippery slope once a society says "okay" to suicide. The worst case scenario being forced euthanasia.
But, ultimately, the choice to live or die must rest with the individual.
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