![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 52 to 76 of 94. Go back in thread:
Posted by MisterB on July 9, 2000, at 20:04:52
In reply to Re: possible 2nd board and links experiment, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2000, at 14:10:26
It's Dr. Bob's time to do with as he chooses, but I would think it better spent clearly defining rules for participation on this board than spent creating more exclusive boards.
In the other hand, the internet first was created primarily as a research tool to facilite interaction among scientists. In the evolving environment of personal use, it seems totally appropriate that anyone can develop their own mailing list and conduct an ongoing exclusive dialogue. From my perspective, problems would develop when this private converstation is published for public consumption. As a reporter and journalist, my effort has been to insure that the breadth and depth of perspectives in the community are fairly represented in public forums. An exclusive second board would not be unlike the many round-table conversations available on cable TV, but those conversations benefit from a production staff that is concerned with the fairness of the content.
My concerns about an elite, exclusive, second tier are not that such a tier is per se unfair, but that it might be used unfairly, as a badge of prestige, to exclude unpopular perspectives and to publically criticize participants on a lower tier. If those were to be the functions, I would suggest members of an exclusive dialogue keep their conversation private. If the only measure for participation was that old-timers on this board can participate in a new board, I would rather it also only be read by old-time members of this board. Otherwise, anyone wanting to respond might feel obliged to post responses to the exclusive board on the main board, or to create some alternate board, and invite an open-season of un-regulated criticism. My point is that excluding segments of the public from public discourse can promote extreme reactions.
The e-groups site idea is interesting, but my experience with e-groups is that their registration processes are a bit cumbersome. It took me several tries to get a handle registered to allow me to continue posting here - I don't know if my earlier handle was blocked, my ISP was blocked, my e-mail address was blocked, if there was just a glitch in the software, or if I was persistenly making typographical errors. With e-groups, a user has to navigate several pages to log on to the site - as I recall, one can't simply direct their browser to a URL to read the contents of a discussion.
The requirement that users have a credit card is particularly offensive to me. Many, especially those in lower income groups, cannot obtain credit cards. I refuse to hold credit cards for several reasons. A general argument against numeric identifiers is that they further erode our biological identity. Anonymous participation in electronic forums seems more natural to me ... as in nature, what you see is what you get.
The idea of grad students participating as moderators here seems like a good idea, though the countersuggestion that psychobabblers perform that function is also a credible idea. Telephone crisis lines are seldom any better than the training offered to the volunteer staff, whose skills are usually limited to empathetic listening and to directing callers to other resources. Volunteers on this site would presumably serve as moderators. To go further, and offer live assistance in directing users to other resources might be very helpful in some cases, but it might also encourage dependancy at a site that otherwise helps develop initiative.
Another problem is to determine what guidelines moderators would follow. Many users of this site might agree on a common definition of the term "civil" but participation in this board so far might be self selective in favor of people who can afford psychiatric care, who have sufficient educational development to participate in their own care and who have internet access. As participation in the site grows, even if we presume that the accepted idea of civility here is to be imposed on new participants, those who do not share the predominant background might need some clues as to the definition of civility used here.
I don't mean to suggest that a moderator would limit content. My suggestion for moderators would be that they respond to the way information was conveyed rather than to the information itself. I am thinking a moderator could be like an editor.
The post about humorous verbal terrorism contains a valuable inventory of rhetorical devices used to misdirect conversation. In a discussion such as this, identification of rhetorical devices can serve to preempt escalation of interpersonal conflict. A simple, timely identification of a rhetorical device, with perhaps a brief explanation of the hazards associated with that device, might help get a discussion back on track. For a person who suspects, as I do, that many biologically identifiable mental disorders are caused by social stresses and that those social stresses are often a result of deficits in interpersonal communication skills, an informed moderator can serve not only to help keep the board on track but also to provide therapuetic education for participants.
Posted by Oddzilla on July 9, 2000, at 20:30:58
In reply to Re: possible 2nd board and links experiment » Dr. Bob, posted by medlib on July 9, 2000, at 18:59:41
Hi Medlib-I'm glad you came back.
>
There's so much repetition if just the most relevant posts were put in the folder it would be much more useful than endless threads and the same answers and questions over and over. For instance there might be an Effexor withdrawal folder with the best posts about that topic, an Effexor success folder,an Effexor side effects folder, etc. I'm not sure how narrow each should be to be most useful. What do you think? Aren't you a Librarian? You returned just in the nick of time!It seems like it should be oriented towards being most useful rather than complete. The posts can be re-titled to make the contents clearer and more accessible. I would guess? that people would be able to add to any folder something they thought was relevant and had been left out.
If everyone worked on an area that had interest for them, it would naturally be tailored towards people who might be interested in the same area.
I would like to see a folder for some of the best posts for encouraging suicidal people because some of them have meant a lot to me .
Perhaps there could be folders for specific diagnosis or therapies,etc.I think the best part of having Babblers do it would be that we know what would have been helpful to us.
I think it would be possible to have the same post in more than one folder if it was relevant to both. At the same time a lot of repetition could be weeded out.
These are all my own impressions-they may not be what Dr. Bob had in mind at all.
I was actually thinking of more of a "Best of" version of whats in Babble for people who were too tired to try and search the archives.
I think the most valuable part of PB is the personal experience unless the information is referenced.
Do you think it would be a good idea for someone (like possibly you :-) to start an organized sytem of naming folders and then let people add to the ones they are interested in?
It's possible that I've totally missed the point(it sure wouldn't be the first time). Best Wishes O.
Posted by shar on July 9, 2000, at 23:50:42
In reply to Re: links experiment » medlib, posted by Oddzilla on July 9, 2000, at 20:30:58
If there were volunteers to search the archives and sort of sketch out what's there, that could help establish categories. I would be willing to take an archived period and analyze it.
We could ignore the personals, and focus on specific drugs, or specific situations (suicide), or hospitalization. Whatever the archives tell us. Sort of a content analysis approach.
Deciding what to include in a link, and what to leave out...that could get interesting. We could leave out redundancies.
I'll keep following the posts.
Shar> Hi Medlib-I'm glad you came back.
> >
>
> There's so much repetition if just the most relevant posts were put in the folder it would be much more useful than endless threads and the same answers and questions over and over. For instance there might be an Effexor withdrawal folder with the best posts about that topic, an Effexor success folder,an Effexor side effects folder, etc. I'm not sure how narrow each should be to be most useful. What do you think? Aren't you a Librarian? You returned just in the nick of time!
>
> It seems like it should be oriented towards being most useful rather than complete. The posts can be re-titled to make the contents clearer and more accessible. I would guess? that people would be able to add to any folder something they thought was relevant and had been left out.
>
> If everyone worked on an area that had interest for them, it would naturally be tailored towards people who might be interested in the same area.
>
> I would like to see a folder for some of the best posts for encouraging suicidal people because some of them have meant a lot to me .
>
> Perhaps there could be folders for specific diagnosis or therapies,etc.
>
> I think the best part of having Babblers do it would be that we know what would have been helpful to us.
>
> I think it would be possible to have the same post in more than one folder if it was relevant to both. At the same time a lot of repetition could be weeded out.
>
> These are all my own impressions-they may not be what Dr. Bob had in mind at all.
>
> I was actually thinking of more of a "Best of" version of whats in Babble for people who were too tired to try and search the archives.
>
> I think the most valuable part of PB is the personal experience unless the information is referenced.
>
> Do you think it would be a good idea for someone (like possibly you :-) to start an organized sytem of naming folders and then let people add to the ones they are interested in?
>
> It's possible that I've totally missed the point(it sure wouldn't be the first time). Best Wishes O.
Posted by quilter on July 10, 2000, at 0:06:59
In reply to links experiment--good idea and we could help? » Oddzilla, posted by shar on July 9, 2000, at 23:50:42
I'm so confused... but I guess thats about par for the course. Quilter
Posted by KarenB on July 10, 2000, at 0:34:33
In reply to Re: rules, posted by MisterB on July 9, 2000, at 20:04:52
Geeeeeeeeeeez.....CHOOSE ONE NAME!!!!!!!! That way we may all have the CHOICE to avoid your posts altogether...or to read them with unbridled enthusiasm for someone who has the guts and fortitude to go against the "system,"...OR to use as needed as a viable alternative aid for insomnia.
Choice. That's what I'm talking about.
Karen
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 10, 2000, at 8:42:36
In reply to Re: possible 2nd board and links experiment » Dr. Bob, posted by medlib on July 9, 2000, at 18:59:41
> ***What kind of folder--self-, drug-, or old topic-named, or what?
Maybe like my example, with a "title" that's the focus of the folder and a "description" with your name? A lot of this will be more clear when you actually try it, I think. (I hope!)
> >In your folder, list only Psycho-Babble posts (those posts, of course, can list any page).
>
> ***By "page", do you mean the current board or a specific archived board? List how?You'll see: you get to enter, for a link, in addition to "title" and "description", "URL" also. The posts could be from the current board or any archived board.
> >URLs should include the archive, like in the Thread section of a post. If they don't, like in the Current Period section on the main Psycho-Babble page, they'll only work for the current period.
>
> ***I don't understand how to do that.To include the archive of a current post? Maybe the easiest way is to go to the post, find it in its own Thread section, click on it there, and then use the URL of that page.
> ***Is there some significance to your inclusion of only some of the posts from this thread on your eGroup sample folder?
Not really. They were just the posts I was responding to before.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 10, 2000, at 8:57:53
In reply to Re: links experiment » medlib, posted by Oddzilla on July 9, 2000, at 20:30:58
> For instance there might be an Effexor withdrawal folder with the best posts about that topic, an Effexor success folder,an Effexor side effects folder, etc. I'm not sure how narrow each should be to be most useful.
Some trial and error is going to be inevitable. Actually, you can create folders inside folders, so one way to do it would be to have an Effexor folder with withdrawal, success, and side effects subfolders.
> I would guess? that people would be able to add to any folder something they thought was relevant and had been left out.
> Do you think it would be a good idea for someone to start an organized sytem of naming folders and then let people add to the ones they are interested in?
Hmm, I was thinking one person (or at least a small number of people) would take responsibility for each folder, but it could be more open, too. But if a lot of people work on (add to) a folder, they'll need to work together...
> These are all my own impressions-they may not be what Dr. Bob had in mind at all.
Don't worry, you got it! Think of Psychopharmacology Tips with a folder of links being analogous to a page of posts.
Bob
Posted by Wallabee on July 10, 2000, at 10:36:59
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - Micro and Macro Boards?Yes, Shar, posted by Noa on July 8, 2000, at 9:48:04
I only discovered this board a few days ago.
I work as an executive director in the charitable sector and I have spent the past few years successfully leading community based organizations through periods of crisis (I actually think that in learning to live successfully with manic depression I have developed some formidable skills at coping with crisis/the unexpected) and growth characterized by:
* tension between the expectations of some "oldtimers" - particularly founding members, and newcomers - largely around the questions of "who are we" and "what do we want to be". Often the group's focus or purpose shifts or expands from that originally intended by the founder.
* issues of capacity and structure - how will we support growth, who will lead this growth, how will we govern ourselves, etc.
Dr. Bob, this is a wonderful site, and a tremendous achievement. As a newcomer I have yet to witness or be bothered by whatever issues gave rise to this thread in the first place. Nevertheless, many of the comments in the thread have useful suggestions for the site's improvement. Some suggestions I would make, based on my professional experience, if you really want to see the site maintain its vitality and become the best that it could be are:
* Be prepared to let go of the board as "your own",
* get help, lots of it. There are many people who work in the area of organizational development and specialize in and have a great deal of experience facilitating the transition this board is going through. I think you could find someone who would jump at the chance of doing it on the net. I am not in the US, so cannot give specific examples, but there must be established charities - actual organizations - whose missions would make them interested in lending a resource hand in supporting the board through this process of growth (perhaps some other posters have suggestions on who these might be). In canada the United Way maintains a service of volunteer consultants who help small organizations (or community groups struggling with the need to become organizations) deal with this stuff.
Some other observations:
* The first thing that struck me about this board is that it is way too much for one person, or even one person and a group of grad students to take on.
* It is truly a community resource, and belongs as much to the people who post here as to the university that hosts it, and you Dr. Bob, who founded and oversee it in a way that is not entirely clear (though that lack of clarity may just be because I have only taken a cursory look at some of the other pages).
* It is something sufficiently worthwhile that it should not be struggling for funding, and could receive sufficient philanthropic support if there was leadership and determination to find same (and that is not meant as a slight at you Dr. Bob, rather one more illustration of my point that this is just too much work for one person).
Sorry if my comments are not an instant fix, but I hope that they will be useful. Still IMHO
My non cryptic email is:
dymordecai@yahoo.com, but I check and answer them all.
Wallabee
Posted by Wallabee on July 10, 2000, at 10:41:20
In reply to some observations based on my professional exp, posted by Wallabee on July 10, 2000, at 10:36:59
didn't mean to imply grad students aren't people
lol
Posted by noa on July 10, 2000, at 16:05:24
In reply to and no, I didn't mean to imply . . ., posted by Wallabee on July 10, 2000, at 10:41:20
When I have visited the sleep apnea forum, I noticed that they have a page of "today's posts". If that were possible here, then we wouldn't always have to view all the threads. We could just check the "today's posts" page to see what is new. Your yellow "new" posts are terrific, but I think that with the skyrocketing volume, scrolling through to see what is new is still quite a job.
Posted by stjames on July 10, 2000, at 18:07:21
In reply to Re: links experiment, posted by Dr. Bob on July 10, 2000, at 8:57:53
>
> Some trial and error is going to be inevitable. Actually, you can create folders inside folders, so one way to do it would be to have an Effexor folder with withdrawal, success, and side effects subfolders.
Hmm, I was thinking one person (or at least a small number of people) would take responsibility for each folder, but it could be more open, too. But if a lot of people work on (add to) a folder, they'll need to work together...
>James here...
I like the way this is developing. I;ll take Effexor.
james
Posted by noa on July 10, 2000, at 18:36:51
In reply to Re: links experiment, posted by stjames on July 10, 2000, at 18:07:21
Ok, I checked out the links thing at egroups. I think I get it. It is indeed easier to understand when you see it.
The problem I am having is finding posts through the search function--I thought I would find some old posts to put in a folder . I would like to start a folder on thyroid related depression.
Posted by noa on July 10, 2000, at 19:32:23
In reply to Re: links experiment, posted by noa on July 10, 2000, at 18:36:51
I just created a folder and filled it with a bunch of links, mostly PB posts, and a couple of Mary Shomon's pages. It probably will need editing--ie, weeding, keep only the most relevent. But I wanted to see how it works. This is pretty cool.
Posted by Oddzilla on July 10, 2000, at 20:04:42
In reply to Re: links --Noa's Thyroid/Depression Links folder, posted by noa on July 10, 2000, at 19:32:23
> I just created a folder and filled it with a bunch of links, mostly PB posts, and a couple of Mary Shomon's pages. It probably will need editing--ie, weeding, keep only the most relevent. But I wanted to see how it works. This is pretty cool.
You're amazing- I'm still trying to decide on a subject for mine. It looks really good. BTW how do you keep your e-mail address from being posted
on the E-groups site? I don't guess it really matters, but nobody else's is showing. Best Wishes O.
Posted by noa on July 10, 2000, at 20:23:56
In reply to Re: links --Noa's Thyroid/Depression Links folder » noa, posted by Oddzilla on July 10, 2000, at 20:04:42
BTW how do you keep your e-mail address from being posted
> on the E-groups site?Good question. All that actually shows right now on mine is the beginning of the address, and I guess you could make educated guesses about the rest of it, but it isn't obvious. Since Dr. Bob did not create a "Members" page, or perhaps I don't have access to it (yet), that keeps email addresses from being posted.
My preference would be to not have mine up there.
Posted by janeS on July 10, 2000, at 20:48:06
In reply to Re: links --Noa's Thyroid/Depression Links folder, posted by noa on July 10, 2000, at 19:32:23
> I just created a folder and filled it with a bunch of links, mostly PB posts, and a couple of Mary Shomon's pages. It probably will need editing--ie, weeding, keep only the most relevent. But I wanted to see how it works. This is pretty cool.
Noa:
It IS pretty cool...great job!
Thanks,
Jane
Posted by shar on July 10, 2000, at 22:38:53
In reply to Re: links --Noa's Thyroid/Depression Links folder, posted by janeS on July 10, 2000, at 20:48:06
Possible topics (for anyone's use)
AD's in combination
Withdrawal
Individual AD's (Wellbutrin, Paxil, etc.)
AD: MAOI Group
Non-AD meds (I'm not sure about this--Zyprexa?)
Hospitalization
Suicide/Suicidal Thoughts
One of those Days (down days that surprise us)
Getting back into the swing of things
Self-medicating (alcohol, Rx drugs, pot, whatever)
Choosing Pdocs and other Pdoc issues
Women's issues?
Drug interactions
Definitions: SSRI, Tricyclic, MAOI-like a glossaryAnd, how do I get to the eGroup?
Thanks, Shar
Posted by Adam on July 10, 2000, at 23:30:16
In reply to Possible topics and question, posted by shar on July 10, 2000, at 22:38:53
I think many of these ideas for possible folders are great, and probably right on target.
Once an old girlfriend spent a summer at Cornell. When I visited, I was a little disturbed by the eclectic archtecture, but there was this one quad that I thought was kind of cool: It had all these sidewalks criss-crossing it in what appeared to be a haphazard fashion, but the truth was they simply paved over paths already created by students collectively taking what was to them the best routes to serve their purposes. It lacked much, if any, of the symmetry and structure one would imagine an engineer or an architect might dream up, but it was in all likelihood the best of all possible arrangements, since it suited the needs of those who used it every day, rather than the aesthetics of any particular designer.
I imagine the redundancy here that I have described might be a little like those students wearing paths in the ground. The "structure" (meaning, I suppose, the organizational scheme that has the most utility) has been made clear by the "paths" we have gravitated towards; or it would be clear if it were not for the fact that the oft-traveled "paths" are periodically obscured or hidden through archiving and a linear structure that would, if it were not for archiving, create an endless sequence of posts and threads that few would have the patience to scroll through.
We often tread the same paths. More often than not, I think, we're not aware of it. Our way might be more clear if we could survey the route taken by those before us. I think the most functional topical breakdown of this space (should such a breakdown be implemented) has already been designed. It just requires an adequate survey to be elucidated. Hopefully some means of paving new paths, when they "organically" are laid for us, will also be implemented, to balance the needs for efficiency and structure with the need for growth when it is compelling.
Just more thoughts...
> Possible topics (for anyone's use)
>
> AD's in combination
> Withdrawal
> Individual AD's (Wellbutrin, Paxil, etc.)
> AD: MAOI Group
> Non-AD meds (I'm not sure about this--Zyprexa?)
> Hospitalization
> Suicide/Suicidal Thoughts
> One of those Days (down days that surprise us)
> Getting back into the swing of things
> Self-medicating (alcohol, Rx drugs, pot, whatever)
> Choosing Pdocs and other Pdoc issues
> Women's issues?
> Drug interactions
> Definitions: SSRI, Tricyclic, MAOI-like a glossary
>
> And, how do I get to the eGroup?
>
> Thanks, Shar
Posted by shellie on July 11, 2000, at 0:18:59
In reply to Re: Possible topics and question » shar, posted by Adam on July 10, 2000, at 23:30:16
I understand the concept of archiving. I think on many topics it will be very useful, e.g. Noa's thyroid/depression links.
Specifically, because at least so far I have used the board for medication issues, looking in files would, I think, satisfy most of my needs, if the information is there. Some of the meds I've tried recently, however, are so new, I don't think there is enough information to archive them (e.g., provigal). So then I assume I come to the board and ask if I have any questions or any experience that I want to share.
But what about a person, for instance, not knowing whether to go into the hospital, or not knowing whether to change pdocs. Do they get sent to the links board to look up "going into the hospital" or "changing pdocs", or is the human element still going to be there to say, yeh, I hear how scared you are, etc..."Should I assume that this will still be here for people? That the main board will function similarly to how it is functioning now, and the links folders are the research option?
A couple more questions. Suppose Noa leaves the board for a while and some new information comes out about thyroid and depression. Who would update it? For that reason do we really want to put people's names on the folder title, or is it enough that each link is assigned to the person who set it up?
Maybe how people use the archives vs the board will just happen organically. Maybe you can forget all my questions! shellie
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2000, at 0:59:59
In reply to Re: another idea, posted by noa on July 10, 2000, at 16:05:24
> When I have visited the sleep apnea forum, I noticed that they have a page of "today's posts". If that were possible here, then we wouldn't always have to view all the threads...
It turns out you can do something like this with the search function. But you don't get "threaded" output. For today, search for:
"value=.July 11"
*with* the quotes (and the period). Why that works is kind of technical, but I do think it works...
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2000, at 1:14:21
In reply to Re: links --Noa's Thyroid/Depression Links folder, posted by noa on July 10, 2000, at 19:32:23
> I just created a folder and filled it with a bunch of links, mostly PB posts, and a couple of Mary Shomon's pages. It probably will need editing--ie, weeding, keep only the most relevent. But I wanted to see how it works. This is pretty cool.
Fantastic, what a nice example of what's possible! :-)
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2000, at 1:18:35
In reply to Possible topics and question, posted by shar on July 10, 2000, at 22:38:53
> how do I get to the eGroup?
http://www.egroups.com/group/psycho-babble-tips
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2000, at 1:27:37
In reply to Re: Possible topics and question, posted by shellie on July 11, 2000, at 0:18:59
> Should I assume that this will still be here for people? That the main board will function similarly to how it is functioning now, and the links folders are the research option?
Yes, definitely!
> A couple more questions. Suppose Noa leaves the board for a while and some new information comes out about thyroid and depression. Who would update it? For that reason do we really want to put people's names on the folder title, or is it enough that each link is assigned to the person who set it up?I think others besides the original creator can update (add links to) a folder. If people are working together, maybe all their names should go on the folder?
> Maybe how people use the archives vs the board will just happen organically.
Probably it will. Already one of my "rules" has been broken. Well, like Wallabee said, you have to let go at some point. :-)
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2000, at 1:45:44
In reply to some observations based on my professional exp, posted by Wallabee on July 10, 2000, at 10:36:59
> * Be prepared to let go of the board as "your own"
You mean, keep an open mind? I'll try.
> * get help, lots of it.
Easier said than done. But it's also true that I can like to hang on to control...
> * It is something sufficiently worthwhile that it should not be struggling for funding, and could receive sufficient philanthropic support if there was leadership and determination to find same (and that is not meant as a slight at you Dr. Bob, rather one more illustration of my point that this is just too much work for one person).
If anyone out there can come up any leads, I'm game!
Bob
Posted by noa on July 11, 2000, at 8:44:22
In reply to Re: how to get to the eGroup, posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2000, at 1:18:35
It appears that anyone can add to each folder. Can anyone edit or delete a link in a folder, or just the person who submitted it?
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.