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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dwight on June 12, 2000, at 22:33:26
To All:
I'm tempted to make a sweeping generalization: that intelligence and happiness are inversely related. But let me share my experience in particular and you guys can tell me if you've had similar experiences. I have noticed that when I'm at my smartest, when I'm thinking the fastest and the most clearly, I'm also feel uncomfortable, nervous, and cannot relate well to people. I have the game ThinkFast which is a good measure of one's mental acuity on a day to basis and when would recommend it to anyone. When I take adderal I perform better on Thinkfast--I'm at the Brainmaster level. I also meditate regularly with the CD's produced by Centerpointe.com--which I also recommend highly. When I meditate, play ThinkFast, take the adderal, etc., I am at my mentally best. I am FAST. Yet when I'm like this I cannot carry on a conversation. If, on the other hand, I take klonipan and neurontin, I can talk to people for hours, intimately, confidently--but I become stupid. I can't remember things. And my thinkfast scores go down. It's a no win situation. I feel like I'm either smart and alone or studid and social. Sociability, it seems to me, is correlated with slow thinking. Alcohol works the same way. Does anyone else feel caught in this dillema?
Posted by JohnL on June 13, 2000, at 4:33:04
In reply to Suspicion: A Stupid Brain is a Happy Brain!, posted by Dwight on June 12, 2000, at 22:33:26
Interesting observations. More than once here I've seen magic cocktails include a benzo and a stimulant combination. Maybe the best of both worlds is achievable? Or at least some happy median compromise?You mentioned trying either Adderall or Klonopin+Neurontin. Have you tried all three together? What about Adderall+Klonopin with no Neurontin? Or maybe Adderall+Neurontin with no Klonopin? Just curious how different manipulations of the meds you are familiar with might work.
JohnL
Posted by Cindy W on June 13, 2000, at 8:52:33
In reply to Re: Suspicion: A Stupid Brain is a Happy Brain!, posted by JohnL on June 13, 2000, at 4:33:04
>
> Interesting observations. More than once here I've seen magic cocktails include a benzo and a stimulant combination. Maybe the best of both worlds is achievable? Or at least some happy median compromise?
>
> You mentioned trying either Adderall or Klonopin+Neurontin. Have you tried all three together? What about Adderall+Klonopin with no Neurontin? Or maybe Adderall+Neurontin with no Klonopin? Just curious how different manipulations of the meds you are familiar with might work.
> JohnLDwight, enjoyed your observations. But I still suspect people can be both smart and happy, and social and happy (although I'm still trying to find out how to do this!). ;)
Posted by judy1 on June 13, 2000, at 14:36:23
In reply to Suspicion: A Stupid Brain is a Happy Brain!, posted by Dwight on June 12, 2000, at 22:33:26
Hi Dwight,
I come from a different perspective since my brain is prewired for ThinkFast (aka mania), I'm able to achieve all the intellectual stuff, happiness (euphoria), sociability, and a lot of other things that are not quite acceptable. I now have a stupid brain- depakote, neurontin, klonopin and risperdal will do that- and unfortunately I'm not very happy. But my spouse, doctor and the rest of society sure seems to be. Go figure.
Posted by Oddzilla on June 13, 2000, at 15:10:55
In reply to Re: Suspicion: A Stupid Brain is a Happy Brain!, posted by judy1 on June 13, 2000, at 14:36:23
According to the IQ test at brain.com my IQ gained 27 points while I was on Effexor. O.
Posted by KarenB on June 13, 2000, at 15:28:17
In reply to Effexor made me genyus, posted by Oddzilla on June 13, 2000, at 15:10:55
> According to the IQ test at brain.com my IQ gained 27 points while I was on Effexor. O.
Oddzilla,
It's not the Effexor - the first time you tested must have been wrong;^)
I took the same test and mine was 8 points higher than the full two hour test I took at age 12. I thought that was a pretty close score for a five minute test!
Karen
Posted by harry b. on June 13, 2000, at 15:48:42
In reply to Suspicion: A Stupid Brain is a Happy Brain!, posted by Dwight on June 12, 2000, at 22:33:26
.
Posted by Mark H. on June 13, 2000, at 18:12:58
In reply to Suspicion: A Stupid Brain is a Happy Brain!, posted by Dwight on June 12, 2000, at 22:33:26
In Bipolar II, the dilemma is reversed: the hypomania and its quick associations, delight in words, hypersexuality, abundant humor and confidence are the happy side, while the almost speechless stupor, slowed thought and social phobias of depression are the down side. For us, stupid is not happy.
It would be fun -- but fruitless -- to try to define "intelligence" and "happiness" in the context of your observation. I think things would quickly fall apart if we looked too closely.
However, at an intuitive level your argument is supported by thousands of years of use of stupefying intoxicants by literally hundreds of millions of people in virtually every culture. As we used to say at the bar closest to the University of Oregon, "Ignorance is Blitz."
;-) Mark H.
Posted by Dwight on June 13, 2000, at 19:23:05
In reply to What is Think Fast? a puter game or what? (nm), posted by harry b. on June 13, 2000, at 15:48:42
Harry,
Yes, ThinkFast is a kind of computer game. Actually, it's series of six different games which measure various aspects of cognitive functioning. After each game you are presented with a variety of different gauges--Overall performance, Brain speed, efficiency, percent correct, etc,.--to help you interpret your score. At the end of the series you are given an overall assesment and a brain level ranking. If you play the game daily--it takes about 15 minutes--you will steadily improve. But I'll warn you the game is addictive. You'll keep pushing until you get into "Theta" level. I've played it so much that I've gotten to the end of the spectrum. Do I feel smarter? In subtle ways, yes. I type faster, I can remember ISBN numbers without writing them down. I read faster and with better concentration. In any case the game is a lot of fun. And can be a valuable too, as long as you are careful not to spend too much time on it. You can download it, or order it, from www.brain.com. Don't worry I don't work for them.
In my above post I also mentioned some CDs from centerpointe.com. I have to say I think their technology is amazing. Basically you listen to the tapes or cds and without doing anything special you find yourself falling into a very, very deep meditative state, deeper than anything I'd accomplished using traditional meditation techniques. It works by sending slightly different frequencies into each ear. (you have to use headphones.) These different frequencies somehow slow down your brain wave patterns. All way down to Delta even. Centerpointe is on to something, but it's very expensive and there is a lot of advertising hype surrounding the technology. The website is at www.centerpointe.com. If you have headphones you can listen to a free demo right on your computer with realplayer; by the end, you'll feel something! I would be very interested in hearing what other people think about this technology. Again, I'm not trying to sell anything; I'm just always looking for ways to improve/heal myself and these are two rather exciting technologies I stumbled upon.
Today I started a combo of adrafinil/amisulpride/adderal/klonipin. The adrafinil and amisulpride are new and I didn't want to go cold turkey off the others. The neurontin was probably the most potent in terms of lowering social inhibitions, but it causes rather severe memory loss. I'll save it for emergency situations. As of today I don't feel anything remarkable. To John--I hope I can find that combo that gives me the best of both worlds. Warmest Regards
Dwight
Posted by harry b. on June 13, 2000, at 21:08:26
In reply to Re: ThinkFast and Centerpointe.com, posted by Dwight on June 13, 2000, at 19:23:05
Thanks Dwight-
The game sounds fun, but I do have a past history
of video game addiction :)I'll visit the Centerpointe website, but after 4
months off work the funds are low.I'd like to hear how the new meds go, as I've been
considering giving the Amisulpride a trial. If
you are starting both at once, how will you know
which is effective?Hope they work for you. Thanks again,
hb
Posted by Oddzilla on June 13, 2000, at 21:25:01
In reply to Re: Oddzilla-me jeenyus too!, posted by KarenB on June 13, 2000, at 15:28:17
> > According to the IQ test at brain.com my IQ gained 27 points while I was on Effexor. O.
>
> Oddzilla,
>
> It's not the Effexor - the first time you tested must have been wrong;^)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
I'll go for that-actually the only times I've ever had IQ tests were when I was in the hospital so I guess maybe the depression was depressing my IQ too.
I went back to brain.com and tried to download Testrunner so I could play Thinkfast and I CANNOT get it to work right so I may have to deduct points anyway:0)
Posted by Cindy W on June 13, 2000, at 21:54:46
In reply to Effexor made me genyus, posted by Oddzilla on June 13, 2000, at 15:10:55
> According to the IQ test at brain.com my IQ gained 27 points while I was on Effexor. O.
Oddzilla, I'm taking Effexor-XR and I don't think I've gained any IQ points! Am I doing something wrong?
Posted by Janice on June 13, 2000, at 22:25:02
In reply to Suspicion: A Stupid Brain is a Happy Brain!, posted by Dwight on June 12, 2000, at 22:33:26
many big mistakes in this generalization for bipolar folks
me sad=me dumb
me happy=me smart=me social
me a little sad right now, Janice
Posted by Cam W. on June 13, 2000, at 22:47:24
In reply to Re: Suspicion: A Stupid Brain is a Happy Brain!, posted by Janice on June 13, 2000, at 22:25:02
> me a little sad right now, Janice(((((Janice))))) - big hugs - Cam
Posted by KarenB on June 13, 2000, at 23:42:08
In reply to Re: Suspicion: A Stupid Brain is a Happy Brain!, posted by Janice on June 13, 2000, at 22:25:02
> many big mistakes in this generalization for bipolar folks
>
> me sad=me dumb
>
> me happy=me smart=me social
>
> me a little sad right now, Janice
Hey, hey HEY! Though you sad, you still smart. Me jeenyus. Me know these things.Karen
Posted by CarolAnn on June 14, 2000, at 9:30:21
In reply to Re: Don't cry, Janice - you jeenyus too., posted by KarenB on June 13, 2000, at 23:42:08
I read this somewhere.
If you have the ability to wonder if you are stupid, then you most likely are not. The truly stupid people are the ones who have absolute faith in their intelligence, while everyone else can see their stupidity! In other words; stupid people never even question whether or not they might be stupid... ;-)
Posted by Greg on June 14, 2000, at 11:13:15
In reply to Re: The stupid test..., posted by CarolAnn on June 14, 2000, at 9:30:21
CarolAnn,
If this is true (and I'm sure it is coming from you), then I must be absolutely brilliant! I question my intelligent at least once an hour...
Greg
> I read this somewhere.
>
> If you have the ability to wonder if you are stupid, then you most likely are not. The truly stupid people are the ones who have absolute faith in their intelligence, while everyone else can see their stupidity! In other words; stupid people never even question whether or not they might be stupid... ;-)
Posted by Cam W. on June 14, 2000, at 11:14:24
In reply to Re: The stupid test..., posted by CarolAnn on June 14, 2000, at 9:30:21
> I read this somewhere.
>
> If you have the ability to wonder if you are stupid, then you most likely are not. The truly stupid people are the ones who have absolute faith in their intelligence, while everyone else can see their stupidity! In other words; stupid people never even question whether or not they might be stupid... ;-)uh-oh!
=^(
Posted by S.D. on June 14, 2000, at 14:28:25
In reply to Re: ThinkFast and Centerpointe.com, posted by Dwight on June 13, 2000, at 19:23:05
> Today I started a combo of adrafinil/amisulpride/adderal/klonipin. The adrafinil and amisulpride are new and I didn't want to go cold turkey off the others. The neurontin was probably the most potent in terms of lowering social inhibitions, but it causes rather severe memory loss. I'll save it for emergency situations
>As an alternative to Neurontin or klonopin, consider kava kava. For me, it seemed to have the same (anti-Social anxiety) effect that Neurontin is having currently (although I didn't put myself in enough anxiety-provoking situations while on kava kava, to gauge the benefit as well as I have with Neurontin). After a few days of adjustment, the only persistant side effect was dry & itchy eyes which was annoying but tolerable and probably is treatable. No memory loss or other noticeable cognitive deficit! Maybe this is due to it being counterbalanced by another action such as the supposed reversible MAO-B inhibition ( the packaging I have says don't mix with an MAOI - I guess combining 2 MAOIs is bad?). If so, maybe your adrafinil or other potentially enhancing meds would counteract negative effects of Neurontin or Klonopin.
Anyway, search psychobabble for "kava kava" (or "kava kava" and "S.D.") to find my previous posts about the stuff. I posted some links to kava kava info.Can I ask you (or anyone!) something about your Neurontin experience? Was the memory loss of the sort that made you "absent minded", like "did I already let the cat outside just 10 minutes ago?"? Did it interfere with learning new things (e.g. you'd read from a book and not retain the information well)?
Did it impair your recall of 'old' knowledge - either simple things like a password you hadn't used in a while or More complex things?
Did/does klonopin cause any of these problems for you?Sorry to ask so much, but (finally) what was the 'quality' of the reduction in social anxiety from Neurontin and/or Klonopin? For instance, for me kava kava and Neurontin nearly eliminated my anxiety and inhibition in recent dealings with salespeople in stores and asking them questions. However, the salesperson always initiated ("can I help you...") and I don't seem to be having any easier time being the one to approach another person first to ask a question/make a request/chat them up/etc. Nor do I think it has reduced my "interpersonal sensitivity" ('thin-skinned-ness').
peace and health,
S.D.
Posted by CarolAnn on June 15, 2000, at 9:18:21
In reply to Non-dumbening alternative to Neurontin or Klonopin » Dwight, posted by S.D. on June 14, 2000, at 14:28:25
Hi S.D., I read your post 'cause I was looking for an alternative to Xanax. First, for your eyes, you want to get eye drops that are labeled "artificial tears", these are just lubricants which you can use as often as you want. Don't get products that "Get the red out", these are not meant to be used long term and after a while your eyes get immune to them and the drops no longer work.
Second thing, is there a brand of Kava Kava that you prefer? I know, I know, you probably already posted this in some previous thread, but could you please, please, indulge my laziness and post it again? Thank you, thank you! CarolAnn
Posted by S.D. on June 16, 2000, at 20:15:17
In reply to Re: dry eyes » S.D., posted by CarolAnn on June 15, 2000, at 9:18:21
> Second thing, is there a brand of Kava Kava
> that you prefer?The only thing I know about different Kava Kava preparations is that there was a study that found a 30% kavalactones (a.k.a. kava pyrones) product was more effective than another, more concentrated, one (based on equal amounts of kavalactones). Most commercial products are 30% anyway.
Regarding herbal-extract products in general, I've heard that some have better quality control than others (e.g. some assays finding such-and-such a product has widely varying amounts of the active ingredient.) but I don't know if any manufacturers or brands can legitimately claim better quality than others.
In my case I happened, by luck, onto a bunch of "Kavatrol" by Natrol, that was 99¢ for 30 capsules (200mg x 30% kavalactones), marked down from $4.99, marked down from $12.95!
Actually I'd recommend against this product, simply because it contains some other stuff like passion flower, chamomile flower, etc.peace and health,
S.D.
Posted by Sara T on June 17, 2000, at 11:18:41
In reply to best brands of Kava Kava? Don't know. » CarolAnn, posted by S.D. on June 16, 2000, at 20:15:17
> > Second thing, is there a brand of Kava Kava
> > that you prefer?
>
> The only thing I know about different Kava Kava preparations is that there was a study that found a 30% kavalactones (a.k.a. kava pyrones) product was more effective than another, more concentrated, one (based on equal amounts of kavalactones). Most commercial products are 30% anyway.
> Regarding herbal-extract products in general, I've heard that some have better quality control than others (e.g. some assays finding such-and-such a product has widely varying amounts of the active ingredient.) but I don't know if any manufacturers or brands can legitimately claim better quality than others.
> In my case I happened, by luck, onto a bunch of "Kavatrol" by Natrol, that was 99¢ for 30 capsules (200mg x 30% kavalactones), marked down from $4.99, marked down from $12.95!
> Actually I'd recommend against this product, simply because it contains some other stuff like passion flower, chamomile flower, etc.
>
> peace and health,
>
> S.D.There are books out and on the web there are sites that give detailed mongraphs from the German Commision E which is the most referred to source on Herbal medicines. It won't tell you which brand is the best, but it will tell you what dosages and what to look for in terms of standardization on the labels. Check out DR. Koop, or any of they other links on DR. Bob's tips page.
Sara T.
Posted by Stickan on December 17, 2002, at 10:12:42
In reply to Suspicion: A Stupid Brain is a Happy Brain!, posted by Dwight on June 12, 2000, at 22:33:26
Man! it all depends on what people you speak with. If you're bright and are speaking with a dull person, let's say a person with an average IQ, or a "Beta-level person", the conversation will seem slow to you. because he/she comprehends slowly.
But I agree with you that a very focused person becomes oversensitive to perceptions and may appear annoying to others, because he puts words in their mouths and draws conclusions from what they say that they were unaware of etc. Such a person might find it hard to adjust to an ordinary social situation, which is why he should seek pears in High IQ Sociaties etc.
And if you feel like that at Brainmaster, you can imagine how hard it is to be social among neurotypicals for a person at Brainmaster +14!
This is the end of the thread.
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