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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by stjames on May 26, 2000, at 21:41:01
MAPS just sent a check for $10,527 to the University of Arizona Department of Psychiatry, to pay for the psilocybin for the OCD study. Producing the
psilocybin will probably take 2-3 months, then the study can start.This will be the first FDA-approved study in 25 years to examine the use of psilocybin in a patient population. The principal investigators, Dr.
Pedro Delgado and Dr. Francisco Moreno, University of Arizona, plan to study the use of psilocybin in 10 patients suffering from obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). They want to determine if they can
replicate in a clinical study several published case reports of patients whose OCD symptoms were reduced after self-experimentation with psilocybin
mushrooms. See www.maps.org/news/1099news.html for the study update, including links to the protocol and informed consent form.
Posted by Cam W. on May 27, 2000, at 0:01:54
In reply to Psilocybin/OCD study, posted by stjames on May 26, 2000, at 21:41:01
James - While researching a paper I was writing about LSD I had read a few case studies using LSD and psychotherapy successfully in reducing OCD in several people. The LSD was used during talk therapy to gain insight into their disorder. These studies were done just a few years before LSD became a restricted drug. The psilocybin may be used in a similar manner. The results should be interesting. It is nice to see that some of the prejudice toward hallucinogens is beginning to dissipate. I believe that these drugs, if used properly in a clinical setting with a qualified therapist, may help with various psychiatric conditions (eg OCD, substance abuse, certain personality disorders, etc.). Thanks for the info James. - Cam
Posted by NikkiT on May 27, 2000, at 7:55:09
In reply to Psilocybin/OCD study, posted by stjames on May 26, 2000, at 21:41:01
What will they do about the constant giggling it produces though!!! ;o)
> MAPS just sent a check for $10,527 to the University of Arizona Department of Psychiatry, to pay for the psilocybin for the OCD study. Producing the
> psilocybin will probably take 2-3 months, then the study can start.
>
> This will be the first FDA-approved study in 25 years to examine the use of psilocybin in a patient population. The principal investigators, Dr.
> Pedro Delgado and Dr. Francisco Moreno, University of Arizona, plan to study the use of psilocybin in 10 patients suffering from obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). They want to determine if they can
> replicate in a clinical study several published case reports of patients whose OCD symptoms were reduced after self-experimentation with psilocybin
> mushrooms. See www.maps.org/news/1099news.html for the study update, including links to the protocol and informed consent form.
Posted by Adam on May 31, 2000, at 13:29:14
In reply to Early 1960s OCD Tx with LSD, posted by Cam W. on May 27, 2000, at 0:01:54
I believe it was the LSD connection that helped provide clues directing researchers to the 5-HT2A/5-HT2C receptors and their role in the anti-obsessional effects of serotonergics, along with mCPP, since many of the hallicinogens like LSD and psilocybin are potent agonists at these receptors
It has been my understanding, though, that relief from obsessions was observed so long as the patient was intoxicated with these drugs. I have also read that mCPP can cause psychedelic-like effects, such as the persistance of images after the visual stimulus is removed, along with its other troubling accute effects on anxiety.
I just wonder how the therapeutic benefits of the current potent 5-HT2-receptor agonists for OCD could be balanced with their other effects, since they seem to be either anxiogenic and/or induce mental states similar to psychosis. Pre-treatment with serotonin antagonist seems to attenuate the negative effects of mCPP, but is this a good solution for psychedelics? Would chronic treatment with, say, a certain dose of psilocybin, lead to a reduction in hallucinogenic potential as well as retention of anti-obsessional efficacy?
I guess I have some doubts about this approach. It seems to me that such therapies would only be of use to those very severly afflicted by OCD and refractory to all other forms of pharmacological treatment. Even then, given the choice between perpetual intoxication with a hallucinogen or the negative effects of surgical interventions for OCD, surgery might be superior.
>
> James - While researching a paper I was writing about LSD I had read a few case studies using LSD and psychotherapy successfully in reducing OCD in several people. The LSD was used during talk therapy to gain insight into their disorder. These studies were done just a few years before LSD became a restricted drug. The psilocybin may be used in a similar manner. The results should be interesting. It is nice to see that some of the prejudice toward hallucinogens is beginning to dissipate. I believe that these drugs, if used properly in a clinical setting with a qualified therapist, may help with various psychiatric conditions (eg OCD, substance abuse, certain personality disorders, etc.). Thanks for the info James. - Cam
Posted by michael on May 31, 2000, at 19:25:40
In reply to Re: Early 1960s OCD Tx with LSD, posted by Adam on May 31, 2000, at 13:29:14
I think it has been fairly well documented (don't know where, though) that tolerance builds rapidly to LSD & Psilocybin - so much so that there is no effect (psychedellic effects) if the same dose is taken the day following the initial dose.
So perhaps a consistant dose would be an option, if the OCD effects were still there...?
> I believe it was the LSD connection that helped provide clues directing researchers to the 5-HT2A/5-HT2C receptors and their role in the anti-obsessional effects of serotonergics, along with mCPP, since many of the hallicinogens like LSD and psilocybin are potent agonists at these receptors
>
> It has been my understanding, though, that relief from obsessions was observed so long as the patient was intoxicated with these drugs. I have also read that mCPP can cause psychedelic-like effects, such as the persistance of images after the visual stimulus is removed, along with its other troubling accute effects on anxiety.
>
> I just wonder how the therapeutic benefits of the current potent 5-HT2-receptor agonists for OCD could be balanced with their other effects, since they seem to be either anxiogenic and/or induce mental states similar to psychosis. Pre-treatment with serotonin antagonist seems to attenuate the negative effects of mCPP, but is this a good solution for psychedelics? Would chronic treatment with, say, a certain dose of psilocybin, lead to a reduction in hallucinogenic potential as well as retention of anti-obsessional efficacy?
>
> I guess I have some doubts about this approach. It seems to me that such therapies would only be of use to those very severly afflicted by OCD and refractory to all other forms of pharmacological treatment. Even then, given the choice between perpetual intoxication with a hallucinogen or the negative effects of surgical interventions for OCD, surgery might be superior.
>
>
>
> >
> > James - While researching a paper I was writing about LSD I had read a few case studies using LSD and psychotherapy successfully in reducing OCD in several people. The LSD was used during talk therapy to gain insight into their disorder. These studies were done just a few years before LSD became a restricted drug. The psilocybin may be used in a similar manner. The results should be interesting. It is nice to see that some of the prejudice toward hallucinogens is beginning to dissipate. I believe that these drugs, if used properly in a clinical setting with a qualified therapist, may help with various psychiatric conditions (eg OCD, substance abuse, certain personality disorders, etc.). Thanks for the info James. - Cam
Posted by Cam W. on May 31, 2000, at 23:53:35
In reply to Re: Early 1960s OCD Tx with LSD, posted by Adam on May 31, 2000, at 13:29:14
Adam - Sorry that I didn't clarify the dosing regimen. If I remember correctly, the gentleman in the study I was thinking of was given a limited number of LSD doses over a period of years, gradually increasing the time between doses. Psychotherapy was done during LSD intoxication, as well as follow-up psychotherapy shortly afterward to discuss the experience andthe insight that was gained. Over a period of about 5 years, I think the guy had taken in the range of 15 to 20 doses. Regular psychotherapy also was conducted between the doses. Sorry for any confusion - Cam
Posted by Cindy W on June 1, 2000, at 10:01:00
In reply to Re: Early 1960s OCD Tx with LSD » Adam, posted by Cam W. on May 31, 2000, at 23:53:35
> Adam - Sorry that I didn't clarify the dosing regimen. If I remember correctly, the gentleman in the study I was thinking of was given a limited number of LSD doses over a period of years, gradually increasing the time between doses. Psychotherapy was done during LSD intoxication, as well as follow-up psychotherapy shortly afterward to discuss the experience andthe insight that was gained. Over a period of about 5 years, I think the guy had taken in the range of 15 to 20 doses. Regular psychotherapy also was conducted between the doses. Sorry for any confusion - Cam
Everyone, I've enjoyed the posts on this thread. As someone with OCD, big time, I'd love to try anything that would help further reduce OCD (Effexor-XR helps with the obsessions and compulsions, but doesn't take them all away, such as hoarding).--Cindy W
Posted by MB on June 1, 2000, at 12:48:26
In reply to Early 1960s OCD Tx with LSD, posted by Cam W. on May 27, 2000, at 0:01:54
Makes sense, given that SSRIs have helped relieve OCD, and that both LSD and SSRIs increase serotonergic activity. The case studies that seem weird to me are the ones in which LSD alleviated psoriasis. What the hell was THAT about? Any case studies of Prozac doing THAT?
> James - While researching a paper I was writing about LSD I had read a few case studies using LSD and psychotherapy successfully in reducing OCD in several people.
Posted by Adam on June 1, 2000, at 14:47:18
In reply to Re: Early 1960s OCD Tx with LSD, posted by michael on May 31, 2000, at 19:25:40
Interesting. I've, uh, never done such a repeat dosing experiment. I've never taken LSD, for that matter, though I did try psilocybin mushrooms. I guess you could say I was relieved of obsessions, but I was relieved of a number of other things, too, such as my mental faculties. Something as mundane as a plate of spaghetti held such fascination it was all I could do to focus on the other diners, much less my particular obsessive traits.
It was definitely fun, but I wouldn't want to live life that way. If it's true one could build such a rapid tolerance to psilocybin, perhaps it could really hold some promise. Or maybe LSD. I was always scared off by LSD because people said it was so potent compared to psilocybin. Does the choice of psilocybin have anything to do with its relative potency to other psychedelics?
> I think it has been fairly well documented (don't know where, though) that tolerance builds rapidly to LSD & Psilocybin - so much so that there is no effect (psychedellic effects) if the same dose is taken the day following the initial dose.
>
> So perhaps a consistant dose would be an option, if the OCD effects were still there...?
>
>
> > I believe it was the LSD connection that helped provide clues directing researchers to the 5-HT2A/5-HT2C receptors and their role in the anti-obsessional effects of serotonergics, along with mCPP, since many of the hallicinogens like LSD and psilocybin are potent agonists at these receptors
> >
> > It has been my understanding, though, that relief from obsessions was observed so long as the patient was intoxicated with these drugs. I have also read that mCPP can cause psychedelic-like effects, such as the persistance of images after the visual stimulus is removed, along with its other troubling accute effects on anxiety.
> >
> > I just wonder how the therapeutic benefits of the current potent 5-HT2-receptor agonists for OCD could be balanced with their other effects, since they seem to be either anxiogenic and/or induce mental states similar to psychosis. Pre-treatment with serotonin antagonist seems to attenuate the negative effects of mCPP, but is this a good solution for psychedelics? Would chronic treatment with, say, a certain dose of psilocybin, lead to a reduction in hallucinogenic potential as well as retention of anti-obsessional efficacy?
> >
> > I guess I have some doubts about this approach. It seems to me that such therapies would only be of use to those very severly afflicted by OCD and refractory to all other forms of pharmacological treatment. Even then, given the choice between perpetual intoxication with a hallucinogen or the negative effects of surgical interventions for OCD, surgery might be superior.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > James - While researching a paper I was writing about LSD I had read a few case studies using LSD and psychotherapy successfully in reducing OCD in several people. The LSD was used during talk therapy to gain insight into their disorder. These studies were done just a few years before LSD became a restricted drug. The psilocybin may be used in a similar manner. The results should be interesting. It is nice to see that some of the prejudice toward hallucinogens is beginning to dissipate. I believe that these drugs, if used properly in a clinical setting with a qualified therapist, may help with various psychiatric conditions (eg OCD, substance abuse, certain personality disorders, etc.). Thanks for the info James. - Cam
Posted by Adam on June 1, 2000, at 16:32:14
In reply to Re: Early 1960s OCD Tx with LSD » Adam, posted by Cam W. on May 31, 2000, at 23:53:35
Thanks, Cam!
> Adam - Sorry that I didn't clarify the dosing regimen. If I remember correctly, the gentleman in the study I was thinking of was given a limited number of LSD doses over a period of years, gradually increasing the time between doses. Psychotherapy was done during LSD intoxication, as well as follow-up psychotherapy shortly afterward to discuss the experience andthe insight that was gained. Over a period of about 5 years, I think the guy had taken in the range of 15 to 20 doses. Regular psychotherapy also was conducted between the doses. Sorry for any confusion - Cam
Posted by SLS on June 2, 2000, at 6:28:13
In reply to Re: Early 1960s OCD Tx with LSD » Adam, posted by Cam W. on May 31, 2000, at 23:53:35
> Thanks, Cam!
>
> > Adam - Sorry that I didn't clarify the dosing regimen. If I remember correctly, the gentleman in the study I was thinking of was given a limited number of LSD doses over a period of years, gradually increasing the time between doses. Psychotherapy was done during LSD intoxication, as well as follow-up psychotherapy shortly afterward to discuss the experience andthe insight that was gained. Over a period of about 5 years, I think the guy had taken in the range of 15 to 20 doses. Regular psychotherapy also was conducted between the doses. Sorry for any confusion - Cam
Cam - Does LSD intoxication represent ergotism?Just curious. All this talk about LSD is giving me a migraine, though. Any suggestions? #25 doesn't seem to help me much.
- Scott
Posted by michael on June 2, 2000, at 10:20:12
In reply to Re: Early 1960s OCD Tx with LSD » Cam W., posted by SLS on June 2, 2000, at 6:28:13
>
>
> Cam - Does LSD intoxication represent ergotism?
>
> Just curious. All this talk about LSD is giving me a migraine, though. Any suggestions? #25 doesn't seem to help me much.
>
>
> - ScottErgotism? Is that anything like egotism?
(Sorry, I couldn't stop myself.)
This is the end of the thread.
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