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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by shar on May 3, 2000, at 21:12:15
I've been taking ad's for several years, and settled into Effexor XR 300 mg, Wellbutrin SR 200 mg, and 1 mg. of Klonopin at night. For about 2 years now. My doc wants me on 300 mg Wellbutrin, but I forget the afternoon dose.
So, every day now is not wrist-slittin' time. My head is above water. I am out of the black pit of despair. I function well enough, get to work and back home. I don't constantly think of the relief death would bring.
A definite improvement. Is this what I should expect? No feeling "light" or happy, or social, or pleasant, or anything? I feel those things now about 10% of the time. Otherwise, it's pretty bland.
When I tried Zoloft (long time ago) I felt "up" -- definitely up. Energetic, would talk to people, spontaneous, maybe even happy, and I constantly marveled at the fact that some people might feel this way all the time! Of course, that fizzled out after about 5 months. Stopped working, I was so disappointed.
Is this the experience of others? Is it reasonable to "expect" happiness, or just the absence of depression? I used a number of other ad's before settling on this combo, and it has the fewest side effects.
Bland is tons better than the Pit, I was just wondering what other people experienced.
Thank you,
Shar
Posted by tina on May 3, 2000, at 21:31:03
In reply to Does Not Depressed = Happy?, posted by shar on May 3, 2000, at 21:12:15
> shar: I don't think I've been actually happy since I was a teenager. I, too, have grown accomstomed to the idea of just NOT being depressed means I MUST be happy. I haven't had a good up in a long time but the downs are less pit-like. Maybe we should expect more but is it possible? I too would rather be out of the pit but it doesn't mean that we should simply be satisfied with clinging to the grass surrounding the pit and holding on for our dear lives just inches away from falling in again. HAPPY- I don't remember what it's supposed to feel like. Just a thought.
I've been taking ad's for several years, and settled into Effexor XR 300 mg, Wellbutrin SR 200 mg, and 1 mg. of Klonopin at night. For about 2 years now. My doc wants me on 300 mg Wellbutrin, but I forget the afternoon dose.
>
> So, every day now is not wrist-slittin' time. My head is above water. I am out of the black pit of despair. I function well enough, get to work and back home. I don't constantly think of the relief death would bring.
>
> A definite improvement. Is this what I should expect? No feeling "light" or happy, or social, or pleasant, or anything? I feel those things now about 10% of the time. Otherwise, it's pretty bland.
>
> When I tried Zoloft (long time ago) I felt "up" -- definitely up. Energetic, would talk to people, spontaneous, maybe even happy, and I constantly marveled at the fact that some people might feel this way all the time! Of course, that fizzled out after about 5 months. Stopped working, I was so disappointed.
>
> Is this the experience of others? Is it reasonable to "expect" happiness, or just the absence of depression? I used a number of other ad's before settling on this combo, and it has the fewest side effects.
>
> Bland is tons better than the Pit, I was just wondering what other people experienced.
>
> Thank you,
> Shar
Posted by Janice on May 3, 2000, at 22:34:06
In reply to Does Not Depressed = Happy?, posted by shar on May 3, 2000, at 21:12:15
Hello Shar,
Now, I'm certainly not an expert on normal, but I'd say you still have a low-grade depression.
It's true many people out there in normal land look pretty depressed…but because this is common doesn't mean you have to accept it. I don't think so anyway.
I have known many people in my life who feel good on the inside.
Janice
Posted by kazoo on May 3, 2000, at 23:54:40
In reply to Does Not Depressed = Happy?, posted by shar on May 3, 2000, at 21:12:15
Most certainly NOT!
Not Depressed = Trip to Rio!
Greetings to Shar.
kazoo
Posted by Mark H. on May 4, 2000, at 0:02:11
In reply to Re: Does Not Depressed = Happy?, posted by Janice on May 3, 2000, at 22:34:06
Happiness requires making it your priority and really working at it. Happiness is not just the absence of suffering, and it is not the by-product of pleasant circumstances or something that just happens "by itself." It's more like a choice, a firm decision, a willingness to change the habits of thinking that depression has deeply engraved on your mind.
As corny as it sounds, a simple affirmation such as "I have everything I need to be happy right now" repeated with conviction 500 times will have a positive influence on your affect. It seems strange, because it is so artificial; but your depressive thinking and unconscious repetition of self-damaging thoughts were just as artificial. Lots of people will hear this advice -- not one in 50 will actually DO IT to see whether it works or not. Is happiness worth 45 minutes of your time and concentration? You can even take a walk while you're repeating the phrase, as long as you stay with the repetitions.
I believe that depression CAUSES mental illness, not the other way around. I wasn't sad until I had been depressed for years. Only when the misery of depression day in and day out had worn me down did I finally give in to despair. Once I found a helpful balance of effective medications, THEN I had to start rebuilding what depression had taken from me, including the ability to create my own happiness without relying on external circumstances or events.
Our minds are amazingly programmable. Please try this experiment and tell me whether it works for you. What have you got to lose?
Very best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by JohnL on May 4, 2000, at 2:56:59
In reply to Does Not Depressed = Happy?, posted by shar on May 3, 2000, at 21:12:15
Shar,
In the psychiatric community as a whole you would be considered a success. That's because they usually measure success as a 50% reduction of symtoms. Not always, but usually. It sounds like you have at least achieved that much. Sometimes the criteria is more stringent, like a score of 10 or less on the Hamilton scale, or something similar. I suspect you have not achieved that kind of success.In my experience being undepressed is not equal to happy. Most antidepressants have lifted me out of depression, yet still left me with residual symptoms of anhedonia that clearly prevented me from enjoying a normal life. I was undepressed, but not happy either. As my counselor accurately phrased it, I was at a level of functioning, but not a level of enjoying everyday normal activities.
It might be interesting for you to follow Dr Bob's link to a site called Depression Central. Just click on 'Tips' at the top of the main page to get to the page where you can access the links. After you get to Depression Central, there is an online depression screening test you can take to determine your current level of depression. It's a simple multiple choice question and answer thing and will give you the results as soon as you're done. I am just guessing, but from the sound of your post I would venture a guess you currently fall into the category of mild or moderate depression.
JohnL
Posted by Tina on May 4, 2000, at 8:58:59
In reply to Re: Does Not Depressed = Happy? Shar, posted by JohnL on May 4, 2000, at 2:56:59
Hey JohnL> I don't have a tips option on the main page, how can I get at that Depression
Central???> Shar,
> In the psychiatric community as a whole you would be considered a success. That's because they usually measure success as a 50% reduction of symtoms. Not always, but usually. It sounds like you have at least achieved that much. Sometimes the criteria is more stringent, like a score of 10 or less on the Hamilton scale, or something similar. I suspect you have not achieved that kind of success.
>
> In my experience being undepressed is not equal to happy. Most antidepressants have lifted me out of depression, yet still left me with residual symptoms of anhedonia that clearly prevented me from enjoying a normal life. I was undepressed, but not happy either. As my counselor accurately phrased it, I was at a level of functioning, but not a level of enjoying everyday normal activities.
>
> It might be interesting for you to follow Dr Bob's link to a site called Depression Central. Just click on 'Tips' at the top of the main page to get to the page where you can access the links. After you get to Depression Central, there is an online depression screening test you can take to determine your current level of depression. It's a simple multiple choice question and answer thing and will give you the results as soon as you're done. I am just guessing, but from the sound of your post I would venture a guess you currently fall into the category of mild or moderate depression.
> JohnL
Posted by tina on May 4, 2000, at 9:03:17
In reply to Question to JohnL--TipsOption, posted by Tina on May 4, 2000, at 8:58:59
Skip it!! I found the Tips option, Maybe I should put on my glasses more often. Sorry to bug you.
> Hey JohnL> I don't have a tips option on the main page, how can I get at that Depression
> Central???
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Shar,
> > In the psychiatric community as a whole you would be considered a success. That's because they usually measure success as a 50% reduction of symtoms. Not always, but usually. It sounds like you have at least achieved that much. Sometimes the criteria is more stringent, like a score of 10 or less on the Hamilton scale, or something similar. I suspect you have not achieved that kind of success.
> >
> > In my experience being undepressed is not equal to happy. Most antidepressants have lifted me out of depression, yet still left me with residual symptoms of anhedonia that clearly prevented me from enjoying a normal life. I was undepressed, but not happy either. As my counselor accurately phrased it, I was at a level of functioning, but not a level of enjoying everyday normal activities.
> >
> > It might be interesting for you to follow Dr Bob's link to a site called Depression Central. Just click on 'Tips' at the top of the main page to get to the page where you can access the links. After you get to Depression Central, there is an online depression screening test you can take to determine your current level of depression. It's a simple multiple choice question and answer thing and will give you the results as soon as you're done. I am just guessing, but from the sound of your post I would venture a guess you currently fall into the category of mild or moderate depression.
> > JohnL
Posted by CarolAnn on May 4, 2000, at 9:23:53
In reply to Re: Does Not Depressed = Happy? Shar, posted by JohnL on May 4, 2000, at 2:56:59
Shar, JohnL is right.
I told my psychiatrist that I felt improvement, but that I still did not feel "undepressed" (JohnL, I thought I made that word up!). My doctor said that was not good enough and we needed to keep trying to find the "right" treatment. So, don't give up here. Keep trying for actually feeling "well". CarolAnn
Posted by Janice on May 4, 2000, at 10:36:05
In reply to Re: Nope!, posted by Mark H. on May 4, 2000, at 0:02:11
Hello Mark and everyone,
> As corny as it sounds, a simple affirmation such as "I have everything I need to be happy right now" repeated with conviction 500 times will have a positive influence on your affect.
•Mark, I've tried these positive affirmations but I find I don't have ability to concentrate to pull them off. What I've done has never worked for me, and I end up feeling more hopeless. any ideas anyone? How do you get positive affirmations to work?
>
> I believe that depression CAUSES mental illness, not the other way around. I wasn't sad until I had been depressed for years. Only when the misery of depression day in and day out had worn me down did I finally give in to despair.•Same experience, but I had never put it into words. I suffered from depression for years, a powerful physical depression, but very rarely felt sad or depressed.
•Sometimes now I wonder if by knowing so much about my illnesses that I now identify too much with my symptoms.
Anyone relate?
Posted by stjames on May 4, 2000, at 15:08:44
In reply to Does Not Depressed = Happy?, posted by shar on May 3, 2000, at 21:12:15
> I've been taking ad's for several years, and settled into Effexor XR 300 mg, Wellbutrin SR 200 mg, and 1 mg. of Klonopin at night. For about 2 years now. My doc wants me on 300 mg Wellbutrin, but I forget the afternoon dose.
>
James here....Sounds like you are better but not well. When you are well there is no question in your mind that you are well. There is a danger in undermedicating
depression; it needs to be in full remission or it tends to come back. Follow your dos'c advice to up your meds; i think he/she also feels you are not fully well.james
Posted by harry b. on May 4, 2000, at 16:13:18
In reply to Does Not Depressed = Happy?, posted by shar on May 3, 2000, at 21:12:15
Is it reasonable to "expect" happiness, or just the absence of depression?
Hi Shar-I'm not quite where you are, that is I haven't
made it back to work yet and I'm having a lot
of trouble attending to my personal affairs. I
have gotten past the point of feeling such despair
that I wanted to end my life. That is very positive.I can't say that I've ever been happy. There have
been a few glimmers of happiness, but they were
so brief and ephemeral that I barely had time to
recognize them. There have been a few periods
when I enjoyed my life, but is that happiness?I've gotten an interesting education these past
few months. The gist of it is that we each have to
work very hard to create our own happiness. Some
of us have a more difficult journey than others.
I know that sounds trite but I'm beginning to be
a believer.I do not think meds can create happiness. Meds can
save us from ourselves and allow us to continue
the fight.Be well
Posted by maggie on May 4, 2000, at 16:13:35
In reply to Re: Does Not Depressed = Happy?, posted by stjames on May 4, 2000, at 15:08:44
I agree with Mark..........BUT
it seems almost impossible when you have relied upon your negative thots for so many years, that you will ever be able to have the strength to change them to positive thots.
It's almost like we come to feel "at home" in our depression. If we had the strength, we wouldn't be here in the first place....which makes it all the more hopeless.
We don't have the strength to change our way of thinking.HAPPINESS IS NOT BEING UNDEPRESSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Take the medications and WORK, WORK, WORK on developing a new strategy of thot
Posted by Shar on May 4, 2000, at 20:14:20
In reply to Re: Nope!, posted by Mark H. on May 4, 2000, at 0:02:11
Mark,
Affirmations are among the very few things I haven't tried. Do you have to believe them when you're repeating them? Or, just saying them helps replace the depressive thinking?I must be a cynic, because I could not say that and mean it or believe it.
Thanks,
Shar
Posted by Mark H. on May 4, 2000, at 20:21:57
In reply to Affirmations/Identifying with symptoms , posted by Janice on May 4, 2000, at 10:36:05
Dear Janice,
Yes, your second question is the central issue in my spiritual practice at this time. I want to give you a thoughtful answer (or at least open a discussion), but it will have to wait until I am a bit clearer.
Everyone's points about affirmations are well taken, yet notice that no one actually did them and said whether it made a difference or not, even as an experiment or to prove me wrong. Isn't that interesting?
I reach a point in my work sometimes that I consider hiring someone temporarily for $10 an hour out of my own pocket just to sit with me in my office and help me move from task to task -- that's all it takes sometimes, is just not to be alone with my own thoughts. I've arranged for someone who already works here to do just that tomorrow -- we'll see how it goes.
But my point is, when I practiced that affirmation years ago on my walk to work in the morning, I would get in about 600 repetitions in 20 minutes, and it would brighten my affect and break my obsessiveness. I understand that severely depressed people think they cannot focus on something even this simple for 20 minutes, but I assume that someone brought back to the middle range of "undepressed" with medication can.
Not just 20 minutes -- we waste that in the bathroom -- but how many HOURS a day do we spend thinking negative thoughts about ourselves?
I can't threaten, cajole, humor, dare, guilt-trip or trick anyone into doing this, but I believe that for most people, it will make a positive difference. If in fact it does, what would happen if we put as much energy into making our lives happy and positive as we do into, say, our self-hatred and useless fears?
I'm deeply interested in finding out whether the power of mind can turn around a biological brain disease. I suspect that it might even be possible to be profoundly physically depressed and still find joy -- but I don't yet really believe it.
For a long time, I was a witness to my depression. Then at some point I fell in, and the sense of a healthy, separate "witness" was lost. That is when I experienced despair.
I am working to strengthen the witness and increase the joy in my life. You are helping me, Janice!
Many thanks,
Mark H.
Posted by allisonm on May 4, 2000, at 20:34:26
In reply to Re: Does Not Depressed = Happy?, posted by maggie on May 4, 2000, at 16:13:35
I guess I disagree with Maggie. Depression isn't about not having enough strength and trying to be stronger. It's about brains and chemistry and other things that we still don't understand. Being strong doesn't keep depression at bay. It can cripple anyone -- regardless of level of intelligence, mental fortitude, background or disposition.
I myself have felt unhappy or flat for years now. It was only in 1998 that my depression was disgnosed. Meds have kept me from suicide. Sometimes, like harry, I feel cheerful and have glimmers of hope, but those feelings are pretty alien and strange. They are fleeting and don't feel normal or real.
I've been feeling better lately with different meds. The negative thoughts going around in my head aren't there so much. It's as though the tape loop broke. I've felt less exhausted, and more up to doing things that I wouldn't have imagined a few weeks ago.
I don't kid myself that non depression means happiness. I fear that happiness is a different animal all together. It feels elusive. Have you ever tried to catch a butterfly? I'm not even going to seek happiness -- at least not directly. My main focus is staying out of this hole. If happiness comes after that somehow, I won't turn it away. But I don't think it's something that one can seek out and grab. It has to come from within. I think it sneaks up on people. There are zillions of books out there with theories on how to find it. I think if anyone ever really discovered how to get it and bottled that, they'd be richer than Bill Gates.
Just my .02
Posted by Mark H. on May 4, 2000, at 20:35:43
In reply to Re: Nope!, posted by Shar on May 4, 2000, at 20:14:20
Shar,
You're not a cynic -- most of us think that way. You say things ALL DAY LONG, both out loud and silently to yourself, that you do not believe with any conviction, yet we resist saying an affirmation that is reasonable and demonstrably TRUE because we don't know the difference between "simple" and "easy."
Have you ever been in a play? Ever had to lie your way out of a bad grade or a speeding ticket? Of course you can say these 10 words with conviction!! Will each repetition bring up some negative stuff that contradicts it? Sure. Will you want to stop after four minutes and say, "This is really stupid -- why am I doing this?" Of course.
We imagine that we are so smart because we have high measured IQs, but we do stupid stuff all the time.
If you will say those ten words, with conviction, 500 times, you will feel some change, and I predict that it will be a positive change. Maybe you'll just sleep a little better. Maybe the truth of the phrase will make more sense to you. Maybe you'll let go obsessing (I used to obsess about socks in the Lands End catalog -- now that was useful!!). It's just a tiny, insignificant experiment in proving to yourself the power of conscious thought in affecting the patterns of your own thinking and the emotional responses that follow.
"I can't say those words and believe them" is just a different mantra than the one I'm suggesting -- what effect do you suppose thinking that has on your feelings?
Isn't this interesting? I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass, I'm just hoping we can support one another in using every tool available to us and maybe even invent some new ones that help make life more joyous for all of us.
Wanna play?
Many thanks for your response,
Mark
> Mark,
> Affirmations are among the very few things I haven't tried. Do you have to believe them when you're repeating them? Or, just saying them helps replace the depressive thinking?
>
> I must be a cynic, because I could not say that and mean it or believe it.
>
> Thanks,
> Shar
Posted by tina on May 4, 2000, at 21:13:45
In reply to Re: Does Not Depressed = Happy?, posted by allisonm on May 4, 2000, at 20:34:26
I'm with you all the way kiddo. Get yourself well and then deal with getting happy. If you don't feel what you consider well find yourself a new doc or better meds.
> I guess I disagree with Maggie. Depression isn't about not having enough strength and trying to be stronger. It's about brains and chemistry and other things that we still don't understand. Being strong doesn't keep depression at bay. It can cripple anyone -- regardless of level of intelligence, mental fortitude, background or disposition.
>
> I myself have felt unhappy or flat for years now. It was only in 1998 that my depression was disgnosed. Meds have kept me from suicide. Sometimes, like harry, I feel cheerful and have glimmers of hope, but those feelings are pretty alien and strange. They are fleeting and don't feel normal or real.
>
> I've been feeling better lately with different meds. The negative thoughts going around in my head aren't there so much. It's as though the tape loop broke. I've felt less exhausted, and more up to doing things that I wouldn't have imagined a few weeks ago.
>
> I don't kid myself that non depression means happiness. I fear that happiness is a different animal all together. It feels elusive. Have you ever tried to catch a butterfly? I'm not even going to seek happiness -- at least not directly. My main focus is staying out of this hole. If happiness comes after that somehow, I won't turn it away. But I don't think it's something that one can seek out and grab. It has to come from within. I think it sneaks up on people. There are zillions of books out there with theories on how to find it. I think if anyone ever really discovered how to get it and bottled that, they'd be richer than Bill Gates.
>
> Just my .02
Posted by Fred Potter on May 4, 2000, at 22:38:19
In reply to Re: Well said Allison, posted by tina on May 4, 2000, at 21:13:45
I think once the depression is lifted you then find happiness by not looking for it. Think of others more than oneself - get involved in good causes. These are things which one can't consider when depressed. BTW Mark I tried those words and I feel more content this afternoon. In a way, the objections that pop up in your mind are the most interesting part. Thanks for that
Fred
Posted by Mark H. on May 5, 2000, at 13:24:15
In reply to Re: Well said Allison, posted by Fred Potter on May 4, 2000, at 22:38:19
Dear Fred,
Thank you for your feedback. I agree with you. The path to true happiness is to put others' happiness ahead of your own. I don't know if seriously depressed people can hear that. I often refer to my depression as the "selfish disease," because it makes everything seem like it's about me, when in truth nothing is about me.
I have three little notes on my monitor at work: "What is best for the organization?" "What is the right thing to do?" and, "It's not about me." Today I'll add one that says, "What's my motivation?"
Best wishes,
Mark
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