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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by saint james on April 28, 2000, at 15:00:43
http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/00/04/cyber/capital/25capital.html
Posted by KimK on April 28, 2000, at 15:19:56
In reply to Internet Rx's busted, posted by saint james on April 28, 2000, at 15:00:43
> http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/00/04/cyber/capital/25capital.html
James,
The link only goes to the NYTimes sign-in/sign-up page, not to any specific article.
Kim
Posted by Abby on April 28, 2000, at 15:30:38
In reply to Re: Internet LINK'S busted, posted by KimK on April 28, 2000, at 15:19:56
> > http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/00/04/cyber/capital/25capital.html
>
> James,
> The link only goes to the NYTimes sign-in/sign-up page, not to any specific article.
> KimKim,
You have to sign in/up to use the web site, but if you've already signed on, then it works fine. I had them save my password a while ago, and I went straight to the article.
James,
What exactly does this mean? Are there prescription drugs which are completely banned, as opposed to just unapproved, the prescription equivalent (in terms of law enforcement)of cocaine or LSD? Will we be unable to import amisulpride?
Abby
Posted by saint james on April 28, 2000, at 16:39:35
In reply to Re: Internet LINK works just fine, posted by Abby on April 28, 2000, at 15:30:38
>
> James,
>
> What exactly does this mean? Are there prescription drugs which are completely banned, as opposed to just unapproved, the prescription equivalent (in terms of law enforcement)of cocaine or LSD? Will we be unable to import amisulpride?
>
> AbbyJames here....
As long as you have a script from a US doc you are OK. Transfer of perscriptions w/o a script is illegal and Scheduled/controlled meds carry major jail time. In general I think it is a bad idea to play your own doc and order meds w/o a docs input.
I except that there might be exceptions to this opinion.It seems to me that the real thrust is in busting
people getting Scheduled/controlled meds via overseas mail w/o scripts.james
Posted by Diane on April 29, 2000, at 10:12:19
In reply to Re: Internet LINK works just fine, posted by saint james on April 28, 2000, at 16:39:35
"Many people, in their "authoritarian wisdom",
deem that risks must be eliminated and crusade to that end. They do not do so to lower risks to themselves (that is already within their power). They do so to lower the risks of others.This motivation is a natural extension of the role of parents which must protect infants and children from dangers that the young do not recognize.
And just as some parents cripple their children through overprotection, many politicians and bureaucrats allocate huge resources to combating increasingly smaller and smaller risks.
In doing so, they *infantilize* our society."
Thanks for the info tho saint james.It's just another door slamming in my face.
Posted by Cam W. on April 29, 2000, at 11:09:16
In reply to Re: Internet Rx's busted, posted by Diane on April 29, 2000, at 10:12:19
Diane - I agree that we are too regulated society, but, if you wanted to do your own experimenting with drugs and mess up and need expensive medical treatment, should I , though my taxes, be obligated to try to heal you or should I stand back and say that you did this to yourself, now die an agonizing death.If you have a psychotic reaction to a medication you take on your own and "go postal" and decide to drive your car into as many pedestrians as possible, should I say that it was just the drug and these things happen, now go live you life as before.
If you murder my wife while high on crack, should I say that is the luck of the draw and I guess that I will have to look after my kids by myself while you go free and live your life as normally as before, perhaps killing other people along the way.
Unfortuanately we live as communal animals. We need laws to protect us from ourselves, as well as others who live in close proximity to us.. Sometimes the law makers go too far, but it is the only system we have. If you would like to change it, get a law or political science degree and try to change it the only real way possible, from the inside. Protesting doesn't work. You push people, they push back. This is just human nature.
Medications are over-regulated, but better to save one life, than let many people treat their own conditions. We should leave the treating of disease to the people who actually have learned about those diseases. Even if you are trained to treat disease, you should not treat your own, as you are not seeing your disease state from an unbiased viewpoint. Sometimes you cannot see that what you are doing is unrational (eg someone in a manic episode).
Yse, the government should interfere less, but where do you draw the line in the sand?
Just some of my thoughts - Cam W.
Posted by KimK on April 30, 2000, at 0:25:02
In reply to Re: Internet Rx's busted - Diane, posted by Cam W. on April 29, 2000, at 11:09:16
Few of us who visit this board would dare say we're always rational.
Posted by S.D. Guy on April 30, 2000, at 20:45:13
In reply to Re: Internet Rx's busted, posted by Diane on April 29, 2000, at 10:12:19
...
> And just as some parents cripple their children through overprotection, many politicians and bureaucrats allocate huge resources to combating increasingly smaller and smaller risks.
>
> In doing so, they *infantilize* our society."Very well said.
[on soapbox]
In that article, the tactics described were rather disturbing. It sounded like 'law-enforcement' by intimidation, de facto prior restraint:
"Web sites were notified that they could be in violation of their local laws.
The groups then go back to check for compliance and to file charges against Web sites that do not take down or modify their potentially illegal claims."Could be in violation?? Potentially illegal claims??!! I guess they don't wan't their uncertainty to get in the way of charging people with crimes.
[off soapbox]For the most part, I don't think we have to worry until they start passing a bunch of new restrictive laws. Laws about prescriptions and medicine sales have been around a long time, and the 1st amendment still carries some weight (eventually) as evidenced by recent legal successes in the face of a disdainful U.S. FDA.
Then Cam said...
>...better to save one life, than let many people
>treat their own conditions. We should leave the
>treating of disease to the people who actually
>have learned about those diseases...Couldn't disagree more. How many of us here know that they are more informed about their conditions and meds (if not all the chemistry involved) than the doctors who prescribe to us? How many of us have suffered side FX and withdrawal syndromes that our physicians never warned us about?
Peace and health
Posted by Cam W. on April 30, 2000, at 23:24:00
In reply to Right on Diane! (Re: Internet Rx's busted), posted by S.D. Guy on April 30, 2000, at 20:45:13
{sigh!} - To S.D.
>How many of us here know that they are more informed about their conditions and meds (if not all the chemistry involved) than the doctors who prescribe to us?
• Not many, even less of us can diagnose our conditions because we either have never seen them before or, because of our illness, lack the insight to make rational choices about our treatment.
>How many of us have suffered side FX and withdrawal syndromes that our physicians never warned us about?
• Or, stated another way, how many of the drug companies (followed by the drug reps) inadvertently forget to mention or play down certain aspects of their product, to get that drug accepted by the FDA. If a physician is not warned of the side effects or withdrawl symptoms, or they happen in only a small percentage of people, how are the docs expected to know what will happen with every drug. I believe it is up to pharmacists (some of whom to actually track down this info) and doctors (who diagnose the particular problems) to work closer together for the betterment of the health care system.
BTW - S.D. How much Prozac would you give yourself for depression if you were taking Lipitor (anticholesteremic) and Cardiazem (calcium channel blocker)? Watch it, it is a trick question, but actually happened in my practice (prescribed by 2 different docs).
My soapbox oratory - Cam W.
Posted by stjames on May 2, 2000, at 17:17:39
In reply to Re: to S.D. (Re: Internet Rx's busted), posted by Cam W. on April 30, 2000, at 23:24:00
>
> >How many of us have suffered side FX and withdrawal syndromes that our physicians never warned us about?
>
> • Or, stated another way, how many of the drug companies (followed by the drug reps) inadvertently forget to mention or play down certain aspects of their product, to get that drug accepted by the FDA. If a physician is not warned of the side effects or withdrawl symptoms, or they happen in only a small percentage of people, how are the docs expected to know what will happen with every drug. I believe it is up to pharmacists (some of whom to actually track down this info) and doctors (who diagnose the particular problems) to work closer together for the betterment of the health care system.
>
James here....Also all side effects with AD's are reversable when the dose is lowered or med is stopped. What is the point of listing all side effects when most will not get them. Doc's do a good job about
letting us know about the major and life threating ones. To me side effects are minor if they go away when the med is stopped. Neurotransmitters, mood, and other body functions are tied together so it is hard to effect mood w/o effecting other functions, hince a wide virety of side effects which varies for person to person.james
Posted by stjames on May 2, 2000, at 18:43:16
In reply to Re: to S.D. (Re: Internet Rx's busted), posted by stjames on May 2, 2000, at 17:17:39
How about getting a doc to write a script for a non-US med then contacting the manufacture via a compassionate use program for free meds ? Lots cheaper w/o the danger of breaking any laws.
There are ligitamate ways of getting these meds.
james
Posted by Cam W. on May 2, 2000, at 23:03:53
In reply to Re: to S.D. (Re: Internet Rx's busted), posted by stjames on May 2, 2000, at 17:17:39
>
> >
> > >How many of us have suffered side FX and withdrawal syndromes that our physicians never warned us about?
> >
> > • Or, stated another way, how many of the drug companies (followed by the drug reps) inadvertently forget to mention or play down certain aspects of their product, to get that drug accepted by the FDA. If a physician is not warned of the side effects or withdrawl symptoms, or they happen in only a small percentage of people, how are the docs expected to know what will happen with every drug. I believe it is up to pharmacists (some of whom to actually track down this info) and doctors (who diagnose the particular problems) to work closer together for the betterment of the health care system.
> >
>
>
> James here....
>
> Also all side effects with AD's are reversable when the dose is lowered or med is stopped. What is the point of listing all side effects when most will not get them. Doc's do a good job about
> letting us know about the major and life threating ones. To me side effects are minor if they go away when the med is stopped. Neurotransmitters, mood, and other body functions are tied together so it is hard to effect mood w/o effecting other functions, hince a wide virety of side effects which varies for person to person.
>
> jamesJames - After all is said, side effects are only drug effects we do not want at that particular time for that particular disorder. A side effect in one disorder is a drug effect in another. - Cam W.
Posted by Diane on May 5, 2000, at 16:24:26
In reply to Re: Internet Rx's busted - Diane, posted by Cam W. on April 29, 2000, at 11:09:16
***** I agree that we are too regulated society, but, if you wanted to do your own experimenting with drugs and mess up and need expensive medical treatment, should I , though my
taxes, be obligated to try to heal you or should I stand back and say that you did this to yourself, now die an agonizing death.That's a hard one. I personally am going about this so slowly and cautiously that I don't believe I'd waste your tax dollar. But it could happen and that is partly what your taxes are
for...health emergencies.
If you do your own experimenting with drugs you have to be responsible for your actions. You have to take cautious steps. Lowest dose possible. Be aware. You go slow and easy.***** If you have a psychotic reaction to a medication you take on your own and "go postal" and decide to drive your car into as many pedestrians as possible, should I say that it was
just the drug and these things happen, now go live you life as before.I'd expect you to end my life. Electric chair etc.
***** If you murder my wife while high on crack, should I say that is the luck of the draw and I guess that I will have to look after my kids by myself while you go free and live your life
as normally as before, perhaps killing other people along the way.Crack is a street drug. Were not talking street drugs. Obviously death row is where I'd belong if I killed anyone.
***** Unfortuanately we live as communal animals. We need laws to protect us from ourselves, as well as others who
live in close proximity to us..Yes unfortunately. Zero population growth, in the long run, is the only thing that is going to stop us from killing each other and everything else on this plant.
***** If you would like to change it, get a law or political science degree and try to change it the only real way possible, from the inside.
Yeah right, I'm 46 years old. Been unable to function as a productive person sense I was 11yrs old. The only drug that turned me 180 degrees around in the right direction was
Methadone but our government has made Methadone inaccessible for anything out side of heroin/opiate addiction and sever pain. So I sit in my room 21 out of 24 hours.***** Medications are over-regulated, but better to save one life, than let many people treat their own conditions.
THAT'S RIDICULOUSLY CHILDISH !. Save just one and sacrifice the masses. That's what I call absolute control. You can't (and shouldn't) safe guard against EVERY LITTLE
BLOODY THING! It's counter productive/destructive in the end.
***** We should leave the treating of disease to the people who actually have learned about those diseases.I went to my GP with 4 printed pages in hand. I told him I wanted/had to get this long time depression taken care of once and for all now. I told him if he didn't feel up to dealing with it to
recommend some one who could, please. I gave him my email address. He gave me Prozac, I reacted badly, took what was left of the sample back to him, haven't heard from him sense.
He didn't give me another drug to try or make any recommendations. My mistake was being honest with him about Methadone.
In 1982 I went to a Psychiatrist who put me on Melliril (euck), than Xanax (euck). He never told me that you just can't stop taking Xanax...I ended up in the hospital for a week(i stated in
past posts 2 weeks, but I was wrong. only 1 week) with seizures. After that I had trouble with words. I couldn't remember the names of things. That's a cat. That's the door. I was bad the
first year.In 1989 I entered a clinical trial for Nafarillin (used for endometriosis) at Stanford. W. LeRoy Heinrichs, M.D., Ph.D.(leroy.heinrichs@stanford.edu) was conducting the study. He was
nice, friendly, happy to have me aboard etc. during the interview up until I told him about my being on Methadone. He got an ugly look on his face and said "You're not going to
embarrass me are you?" I said of course not (you rude insensitive ass) and was excepted. End of interview. Boom. I talked to him for well over an hour before telling him I was on 80mg
of Methadone. He never knew. But as soon as he did he treated me inferior. Doctors are prejudice and there is nothing you can do about it except self medicate. Unless of course you
have unlimited funds and can shop the shrink market.I would love to see everyone connected with a doctor/psychiatrist. I would love to see myself under the care of a caring, smart Psychiatrist. But I can't afford it. I don't have a car. I live in
a tiny town (1 doc. who must be 80yrs old), etc.
I don't like doctors. I don't like the way they treat me(like a little kid). I don't like having to hide my past with Methadone because it is crucial in my opinion. I don't like asking/begging
anyone for anything actually and this the first time in my life where I've had too (and it ain't easy). I lost everything in the past 8 yrs(husband died, medical bills took the house, retirement$,
cars, boat, lot up at Eagle Lake, EVERYTHING!!). And all I want is to get back on Methadone...that's all. So I can get out and get a bloody job. It's the only thing that has helped me
put aside my self doubts, social phobias motivated me, helped me to focus, etc. But the government says no you can't have it Diane It's a big baddy drug...it's addictive. Methadone is
tainted in the eyes of the government and doctors because of heroin. People have this misconception that most all heroin addicts are gutter junkies, when in actual fact only 10% are.
Ninety percent (90%) of heroin addicts are in and from the middle and upper socio-economic classes. I was a heroin addict myself for 10 yrs and sold heroin during half that time. Only 3
of my customers were dirt poor. The rest were normal intelligent clean middle class folks, who worked every day, owned businesses, owned homes, drove nice cars(a couple BMWs,
Mercedes). None of them were like what you see on TV.
Methadone does not get you HIGH. The general population is under, again, this misconception that Methadone being a "cure" for heroin addiction MUST get you HIGH. That is not true.
There is no heroin head in chest high from Methadone.
But small ignorant scared minds prevail. So I'm outta luck. Enough said.SO I am forced to experiment with ADs (which I hate!) You are very right about the risk of a psychotic reaction. I had one with Prozac. But I personally am not that irresponsible to go
anywhere while on a drug until I know myself on said drug (I learned my lesson with Klonapin). I never went anywhere or drove a car while high on heroin( the first hour or so) And
anyone who does should be thrown in jail. I personally don't like drugs, outside of Methadone. Taking ADs scares me. I also don't like how pills creep up on you(klonopin).
In my personal opinion/experience ADs are more dangerous than Methadone could ever dream of being. There is no comparison***** Even if you are trained to treat disease, you should not treat your own, as you are not seeing your disease state from an unbiased viewpoint. Sometimes you cannot see that what
you are doing is unrational (eg someone in a manic episode).I can see that as good advise for doctors. If I was a doctor attemtpting to treat myself I would get many opinions, the more the better. That's a no brainer. Doctors have unlimited
access.***** Yse, the government should interfere less, but where do you draw the line in the sand?
I'm not sure but I'm for erring on the side of risk. Some of us might be incapacitated by depression/social phobia etc. but that doesn't mean we are irresponsible, or lame enough to leave
the house when taking a new drug. Or that we are unaware of the drugs effects on our psyche and stop taking it if undesirable. I would hazard a guess that 90% of the people who suffer
from depression are responsible enough to attempt a cautious self help.
10% is the risk factor.I've learned more in these past 3 years... sense getting this computer.... than I've learned all my life before.
Sorry I took so long but I don't come to Psycho-Babble much anymore. I never had anything to contribute (except my seemingly radical opinions when riled) only questions to ask.
I felt/feel guilty about that. You don't go around taking all the time(I've never owed anybody in my life). But at this time of my life I'm on the shitty end of that stick...taking more than
giving, and I HATE it. I need to get back in the black and out of the red. I need help to do it tho, but I can't seem get out of this freaking room. What ever happened to house calls?
$$$My 2 cents again.
This is the end of the thread.
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