![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Gertrude on April 3, 2000, at 0:54:06
[REPOSTED because seems not to have gotten on the first time. Perhaps because I gave no email address? Apologies if this winds up being posted twice]
I am bursting with this information and this seems to be the right place to post it. I had never heard it before even though I've spent the past 6 years (since I started SSRI's) reading everything about depression, antidepressants, herbs, cognitive enhancers, "Smart Drugs" (nootropics)...
Here it is: my new psychiatrist just told me (I'm simplifying here) "SSRI's make you happy but dumb, Wellbutrin can make you more anxious but smart". All the time I was on Luvox and Effexor I was beating myself up about not being smart enough (I tested at 170 IQ in high school), not giving my (Silicon Valley) employer their money's worth, and I tried every health food supplement that offered "cognitive improvement". I even spent a few months charting what I ate, pills I took, and even the barometric pressure against my feelings of cognitive impairment.
It amazes me that I never noticed that the feelings of inadequacy started about when I started the SSRI's, and they let up significantly within a few months of switching to Wellbutrin. Since I started the SSRI's about when I moved to Silicon Valley and started my "career", and switched to Wellbutrin about the time I switched to my current job, I had always thought that the feelings of inadequacy were caused by what was going on at my last 2 jobs and my feelings of competence were caused by my current job.
I'm writing this primarily to share the information with others who might be affected similarly, not to go on about my history. But I do want to mention that on Effexor I had the "sleeping all the time" effect reported by Renee N., although again all my obsessive self-observation somehow managed to miss the correlation.
Posted by Cam W. on April 3, 2000, at 14:03:00
In reply to SSRI's: maybe cause dumbness?, posted by Gertrude on April 3, 2000, at 0:54:06
Gertrude - Increasing your intelligence via chemical means is impossible, so far. Although, I did feel like Einstein at a Grateful Dead concert about 20 years ago, but we won't go there or I will never be president. Some cognitive enhancers (eg Gingko biloba) may increase cognition in those with decreased brain perfusion (eg Alzheimer's).There are at least 7 different types of intelligence and to have even most of them would probably drive you insane. Wayne Gretzky, Stan Kutcher, Aristotle, Plato, Isaac Newton, Leonard Da Vinci, Marie Curie and Albert Einstein have or had great intelligence. They see or saw their respective occupations at a level far above or far more widely than anyone else in their field, but all of these people have or had different types of intelligence. They could see the big picture, where we only see small portions of it at a time.
SSRIs do not decrease intelligence, but may initially dull cognition as your body adjust to the drug. This is not losing intelligence, though. It is more of the side effects distracting you from what you are to be focusing on.
I wish that Wellbutrin made one more smart. Just because it gives you a little activation does not mean that it increases your intelligence. If this were the case, then all of the methadrine addicts would be working on cures for AIDS and cancer (and a "smart pill") rather than robbing my local gas station (and not in a very bright way, either. Rule #1 when robbing a gas station - Do not smile into the camera if you are a local in a small town).
I hope what I say next does not offend you, but it is something I am working on myself. I too, have feelings of inadequacy in my job sometimes. I should know more or I should have seen that coming. This has more to do with personality than with actually doing or being less than your colleagues. Everyone has these feelings and we must learn to overcome them and not take failures personally, but see them as a learning experience and proceed, rather than give up. This is easy to say, but hard to put into practice. We have to shed these feelings of inadequacy, because that is what they are, just feelings.
Just my $0.02 - Cam W.
Posted by bob on April 3, 2000, at 15:14:56
In reply to Re: SSRI's: maybe cause dumbness? - Uh-uh, posted by Cam W. on April 3, 2000, at 14:03:00
Just to follow up on what Cam had to say (and since I'd be another Dr. Bob, in this area of study, IF it wasn't for that dang paperwork):
IQ tests measure exactly what it is that an IQ test measures. Few learning psychologists nowadays, tho, consider it possible to capture what intelligence is in one single number.
The seven intelligences Cam mentioned are one view on the topic, and a very popular one at that. Go to any bookstore and look in the psych section (or the education section, if they have one) for stuff written by Howard Gardner on Multiple Intelligences. Gardner bases his distinctions on what cultures define as arenas of valued behaviors or traits and, thus, a person's level of performance in each of those arenas. IQ tests tend to measure logical/mathematical reasoning and verbal reasoning well, and some handle spatial reasoning too. But actors in the $20M club don't get there by being brainy -- they get to that level by demonstrating other types of culturally-valued performance.
A different perspective on intelligence, tho, may be more of help here ... a perspective which, btw, is in no way in contradiction to Gardner's perspective--the two work together quite well. This other view gets down to more of the "mechanics" of intelligence. You can think about it as (1) what you know (declarative knowledge), (2) what you know how to do (procedural knowledge), and (3) how well you go about managing your own thinking (metacognition). By saying a drug can make you "dumb" or "smart", your doctor was probably referring to one of these.
First thing to remember is that other than doing some serious permanent damage to your brain, you won't really loose any of the intelligence that you have. Even in cases of brain damage, even in older adults, the brain still finds ways to reroute information processing and retrieval (something I've seen firsthand with my father, a multiple stroke victim who lost his ability to read, but regained it through months of difficult OT). In older people, a "use it or lose it" attitude can be essential to keeping the mind sharp and "well oiled", but its an "exercise plan" that is never too late to begin, for most people.
"Intelligence", in this perspective, means many things. The more of it you have, the smarter you are. The better your methods are, the smarter you are. The faster you think, the smarter you are. The more you can apply one skill to many areas, the smarter you are. The better you manage your thinking and avoid distractions, the smarter you are. The more planful you are in solving problems, the smarter you are. The more you take reasonable risks to push your limits--whether you succeed or fail--the smarter you are.
And as Cam (and Gardner) point out, while you might be "Einstein-smart" in these sorts of areas, it doesn't mean you're going to be "J. Paul Getty-smart" as well. Its often the case that more specialized we are in our smarts, the more we may have blindspots in other areas (such as remembering the address of where you live ... one of Einstein's problems).
As for psychotropic meds and all this -- yes, they can have some impact either positively or negatively ... your mileage may vary, even for the same drug. I'll use me as an example, since I've been on quite a few:
Unmedicated, my concentration and focus is rather poor. I do have a rather good perspective on what I know and what I don't know, tho. When it comes to what I know, I push myself and usually wind up better for it. When it comes to what I don't know, I rarely have the motivation to take a risk, even though "intellectually" I *know* this is the best way to improve.
My first time on Zoloft, I had a manic reaction to it. My confidence soared to the point of intellectual arrogance. My focus was incredibly sharp, and my mind was extremely "quick" and "agile", to the point of not considering the consequences of my actions (whether I succeeded or not).
After going off zoloft from that first time, I have never had the same effect. For the most part, it really impaired my "short term memory" -- I would have to write everything down and, even then, I would forget to look at the notes I would leave myself. I had to get into the habit of taping these notes up where I would see them in order to maintain any sort of schedule.
Going on klonopin eased an constantly heightened sense of anxiety that had played into all areas of my thinking. It resulted in more confidence in my own decision-making, and a more direct approach to finding answers to the questions I faced rather than worrying over every possibility.
Most recently, starting on ritalin has aided my concentration and clarity, without all the hyperactivity and carelessness I had that first go on zoloft.
Those are just a few examples. The "smarts" don't necessarily last, nor do the "stupids". I do think there are two lessons:
First and foremost, there are ways to get around the "stupids", like with my short term memory problems. They usually involve (1) making thinking as concrete and visible as possible (yes, writing a note to remind yourself of something counts as thinking), (2) trying to take several approaches to improve areas of weakness (like not just writing things on a white board that I needed to get accomplished, but discussing them with my boss each day and turning on the alarm on my watch so that when it beeped at 2:30, I would remember to actually look at the white board and assess what I'd done that day), and (3) "distributing" your thinking where you can (the white board, the watch alarm, my boss were all parts of how I "thought").
Second: during the good times, keep a diary--document in some way the things you think you are doing better and how or why this is. Not only is it important for reminding yourself in bad times that you are more capable, it will hopefully provide some information on how to find a different way of doing the same things.
er, make that THREE lessons:
Stupid or smart aren't permanent things. Just because you have the smarts doesn't mean you're using them. Similarly, not having the smarts isn't a life sentence of stupid. We all learn incidentally every day in the course of living. If you approach it more purposefully, you'll learn even more.
my buck and a quarter,
bob
Posted by Noa on April 3, 2000, at 17:23:24
In reply to Stupidity causes dumbness... (prolly a long note):, posted by bob on April 3, 2000, at 15:14:56
Hey, Bob, that was a great explanation, but you kinda lost us "dummies" after the first coupla paragraghs! ;^>
Posted by DC on April 3, 2000, at 17:32:21
In reply to Re: Stupidity causes dumbness... (prolly a long note):, posted by Noa on April 3, 2000, at 17:23:24
This is the first I have heard that SSRI's can slow cognition. Before that I heard that drugs like prozac help people think more quickly. I am very sensitive to this and in my experience the SSRI's don't usually affect cognition. IT's the benzodiazipines that slow cognition and affect memory the most. Chances are if the AD is alleviating depression you will think faster, be more alert, etc. Prozac is the most activating of the SSRI's and is probably least likely to slow you down.
Posted by kazoo on April 3, 2000, at 18:43:10
In reply to Re: SSRI's: maybe cause dumbness? - Uh-uh, posted by Cam W. on April 3, 2000, at 14:03:00
> Increasing your intelligence via chemical means is impossible, so far.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Tut, tut ... back in the ancient 1960s, controlled studies conducted on grade school children using
glutamic acid (L-GLUTAMINE) revealed that via the use of this amino acid, IQ was enhanced by 10 percent.
The studies were conducted by Dr. Humphrey Osmond of Princeton University. So, by taking mega-doses of
glutamic acid will you become 10 percent smarter? How should I know? It didn't work for me!Anything is possible, but is it probable?
Just my $1.98 (cheap!).
Greetings to Cam W.
kazoo
Posted by bob on April 4, 2000, at 12:34:43
In reply to Re: Stupidity causes dumbness... (prolly a long note):, posted by DC on April 3, 2000, at 17:32:21
Hey Noa, no biggie ... I lost myself WAAAY before the first few paragraphs ;^)
> This is the first I have heard that SSRI's can slow cognition. Before that I heard that drugs like prozac help people think more quickly.
I would imagine that any med that addresses what your neurochemical "deficits" are would aid cognition, motivation, etc. (but gimme a p<.1 on that). 2.5 years on SSRIs with no sustained positive effect pretty much demonstrated to me that my problems were not with seratonin. Rather quick and well sustained effects with meds that influence norepinephrine and dopamine lead me to believe I just *might* be onto something here.
I guess the question is whether the wrong med, even those meds that are relatively benign when they're the "wrong" med, will have no effect or will it screw you up even further?
cheers,
bob
Posted by Joy on April 4, 2000, at 13:03:51
In reply to SSRI's: maybe cause dumbness?, posted by Gertrude on April 3, 2000, at 0:54:06
How can one ever know what feelings we are having..if we are taking drugs? Suppose
you as a person..without AD's...are or are not..."feeling inadequate","smarter/dumber"?Since you have been on AD's for so long..who are YOU? Personally I want to get to the
root of my "unhappiness/confusion/depression" and deal with it using my own strength,
maturity,healthful living ie:nutrition,exercise,etc. and peace of mind.How can anyone "know" who they are..if they are using drugs?
Posted by Kathy on April 4, 2000, at 21:43:24
In reply to Re: Stupidity causes dumbness... (prolly a long note):, posted by bob on April 4, 2000, at 12:34:43
> Hey Noa, no biggie ... I lost myself WAAAY before the first few paragraphs ;^)
>
> > This is the first I have heard that SSRI's can slow cognition. Before that I heard that drugs like prozac help people think more quickly.
>
> I would imagine that any med that addresses what your neurochemical "deficits" are would aid cognition, motivation, etc. (but gimme a p
> I guess the question is whether the wrong med, even those meds that are relatively benign when they're the "wrong" med, will have no effect or will it screw you up even further?
>
> cheers,
> bobI know the SSRI`s affect serotonin but I`m still not clear which drugs affect norphinephrine and which ones dopamine.
Posted by Victoria on April 4, 2000, at 21:45:47
In reply to Re: SSRI's: maybe cause dumbness?, posted by Joy on April 4, 2000, at 13:03:51
The same way you know who you are if you take thyroid medication (which, like other chemical imbalances, can have depression as a symptom). I'm now on an effective dose of meds (AD, plus thyroid and estrogen) and I feel more myself than I did when the fog and mental static of depression were getting in my way. I don't feel that my emotions per se are any different from what I felt before meds. If one has a chemical imbalance, one can certainly use all possible inner resources to cope with its effects--and for some people that might be enough and there's some evidence that talk therapy might have some effect of brain chemicals--but probably the imbalance will still be there. And I haven';t found that taking meds solves all my problems, so I am using my inner resources to work on them (rather than just to cope with the symptoms of depression), among them learning to sort out which behaviors and attitudes are reactions to being depressed and can be gotten rid of now that I'm not. I realize it's a bit more complicated because the organ that's affected by meds is the same as the organ you use to judge those effects, but I personally don't believe that the proper dose of the proper med changes who one is (I'm not talking about side effects oo being thrown into a manic or hypomanic state).
Also on the question of SSRI-induced dumbness, I think I experienced it, a feeling of confusion and trouble finding words. There's soem material on the Psychopharmacology Tips page that deals with word-finding problems as a side-effect of SSRIs.
> How can one ever know what feelings we are having..if we are taking drugs? Suppose
> you as a person..without AD's...are or are not..."feeling inadequate","smarter/dumber"?
>
> Since you have been on AD's for so long..who are YOU? Personally I want to get to the
> root of my "unhappiness/confusion/depression" and deal with it using my own strength,
> maturity,healthful living ie:nutrition,exercise,etc. and peace of mind.
>
> How can anyone "know" who they are..if they are using drugs?
Posted by Kathie on April 5, 2000, at 1:27:46
In reply to Re: SSRI's: maybe cause dumbness?, posted by Victoria on April 4, 2000, at 21:45:47
To suggest that a person not know who they are because of taking an AD is ridiculous, in my opinion. I suffered a severe case of clinical depression, one which could not be affected by "therapy". I needed drugs, and that was all there was to it. I fought for over a year, to get by on my own, to eat right, to exercize, to look to the inner ME to repair myself. It was impossible. I started on SSRIs and within a week I knew I was feeling somewhat better, and within a month I was feeling more like the real ME than I had felt in over 18 months. I have been taking the SSRI for over a year now and I feel wonderful. No depression whatsoever. My family is happy again, they were very worried about me, and I am happy again. Feeling good is what makes us who we are, not feeling sick and fighting to feel better day after day with no positive results...in fact that just makes the depression more severe, because you are failing to heal yourself.
As for the "dumbness"....I would say my ability to concentrate really hard has been somewhat impaired from what it was prior to the depression. I find it much more difficult to write agreements, proposals, etc. than I used to. I have blamed it on the SSRIs, but maybe it was really caused by the depression, and just hasn't gone away yet..who can say?? And really, I don't much care (typical SSRI attitude????? ;))
feeling well and happy are much more important to me...and also (my I am babbling a little) I have discovered I have artistic ability, and I have tapped into that since being on the SSRIs. I find my abilities in that area..manual as opposed to mental..have blossomed in a surprising and pleasing way. My whole family now have pieces of my art decorating their homes!! I think that is so cool!!Anyways....thats my two bits.
Kathie
Posted by bob on April 5, 2000, at 1:34:43
In reply to Re: Stupidity causes dumbness... (prolly a long note):, posted by christi on April 4, 2000, at 22:27:16
"Schizophrenic? I'm Bleeding Quadrophenic!"
[but before I launch into a speech -- Kathy, I'm on nortriptyline, which is a moderate reuptake inhibitor of NE as well as a weak reuptake inhibitor or seratonin, and on ritalin, which according to the fat little manual on psychopharmacology that my apartmentmate owns "directly releases dopamine into the synapses", whatever that means. Not that I really know what a reuptake inhibitor is after all this time, either, but I get the general idea. TCAs generally affect NE. A lot of the newer meds affect several of these neurotransmitters at once. If you have a question about what you're taking, just ask -- someone here will know =^)]
Now, about that speech ...
The lenses of my eyes are misshapen and my eyeballs are too narrow front to back, but I see no reason to be "the real me" and go without my glasses. I guess I could just "behave" the right way -- get really close to things and squint -- but that technique doesn't work too well at 65 mph.
Sometimes my head hurts, from stress or work or from the ear infection I currently have ... but I see no reason I should be the real me and let my own natural pain killing and infection destroying systems take their natural course, nor do I feel any compunction to practice, say, biofeedback techniques to reduce the pain. Biofeedback really isn't the real me anyway.
My cholesterol levels just aren't as low as the average human's are, but I see no need to pursue that heart attack the genetically real me is striving towards just so that I can die when my body thinks it should, nor do I want to experience the several strokes that my father has indicated is my biological lot in life. I do what I can with diet and exercise, and Lipitor does the rest.
And a DAMN good job it does at that.
Now, the trauma I experienced growing up in my parents' house was the same set of circumstances that an older and a younger brother had to face as well. My older brother is not quite the mess that I am in some ways, and in other ways he's much worse off (after all, he's a blue collar republican ... talk about dazed and confused!). My younger brother--God bless him, his wife, and his one daughter and three sons--is living a life devoid of any sign that he went through what the rest of us went through.
So, is he who I'm supposed to be, if I just work at it a little harder?
Sure, environmental factors played a BIG role in creating who I am right now, and certainly my behaviors play a BIG role in maintaining that. But while I can have laser surgery to reshape my eyes, and I can start practicing those meditation techniques I've learned and smile like the Buddha while waiting for my headache to disappear, and I can start training for marathons and triathlons to cut my body fat to zilch (plus or minus a few percent), there is no physical action I can take at this time, short of passing several thousand volts between my temples, that is going to have a serious enough impact on my brain chemistry.
Your mileage may vary.
Me? I was born with this Jones; it got kicked into high gear when I was 8 years old; and I'm still trying to find a way to set it right. Behaviorally AND chemically.
I've seen more than a dozen combinations of meds -- some here have seen more, some less. In my time, I've seen about six or eight different "me"s over the last 3 years.
So which one of them is the real me?
All of them?
None of them?
Perhaps the worst of them is who I really am. Maybe my genetic code is hard-wired to self-destruct for a reason, and maybe I should just follow my genetically-predetermined path and remove myself from the gene pool before doing the species any more harm than what its already caused itself, along with all the other genomes out there. There is no question about the lethality of our disorders ... so if I can't fix myself by trying harder to change, does that mean I really should off myself right now?
I had a Very Good Friend in junior high school who did his best to drag me out of the socially phobic, guilt-ridden, grief-deadened depressed black hole I was ... and the only way I could bear it was to play the fool. Making people laugh, whether with me or at me, made it begin to become bearable. And I created this facade of this witty, intelligent young man who resembled no one I really thought I was until, by my senior year in college, I thought I had lost myself completely. I didn't know who I was, even though who everyone thought I was seemed to be doing pretty damn good in school and with his friends and by any observable yardstick you might want to apply. I was one set of behaviors ANY mother would love to have as a son. But I couldn't go on living that lie, and I had absolutely no sense of who I was.
As much of a failure as I believed myself to be, thank God I was even worse at killing myself!
So who was the real me? The jokester? the geek? the tightly wound ball of pain? Yes, I was all of that.
And the eight or so "me"s I've seen in the last 3 years? I'm all of them as well.
I've been thinking, sulking, obsessing, you name it, about this issue for almost thirty years, and there's only one bit of wisdom I've ever been able to arrive at ... and, for all that, only for the last six months or so.
I cannot be anyone that I am not.
If only I had listened to Popeye, all those years ago. "I yam what I yam and that's all what I yam." And then some, as it turns out. My learned behaviors, instilled attitudes, self-delusions, and chemical enhancements or dehancements all have one thing in common: me.
Personally, I'll take any of the above that will help me ac-cen-tu-ate the positive and e-lim-in-ate the negative. Chemically enhanced? Behaviorally enhanced? Just as long as I'm enhanced ... I've been dehanced enough of my life already. It sucks.
"A tough guy, a helpless dancer.
A romantic, is it me for a moment?
A bloody lunatic, I'll even carry your bags.
A beggar, a hypocrite, love reign over me."
-- Pete Townsendcheers,
Bob
Posted by bob on April 5, 2000, at 3:41:08
In reply to Re: SSRI's: maybe cause dumbness?, posted by Kathie on April 5, 2000, at 1:27:46
> ... (my I am babbling a little) ....
Comes with the territory. Welcome to Babbleland. ;^)
cheers,
bob
Posted by Liz on April 5, 2000, at 9:47:37
In reply to Can you see the real me?, posted by bob on April 5, 2000, at 1:34:43
Bob, I loved your post. It touches on something I have been struggling with - my failure to affect a positive change without the use of medication. I didn't actually start agonizing about that until after I began Celexa. I started to feel better, then I began to stew about that, like I needed anything new about which to struggle! Anyway, your note made some terrific analogies and helped me recall a statement my doctor made, that it wasn't really ME, but my brain chemistry and, as you say, all one's baggage is also thrown into the mix. So, I'm going to make a determined effort not to fret too much about it, just as I don't fret about taking aspirin for a headache. Also, your post made me think that perhaps the "real me" does not exist as some static thing; that we all are sort of evolving, working toward being happier, being better people, etc. If we don't adapt and change, if we don't respond to our environment and our experiences, then we are truly in a sad place. I might add, in reference to this whole thread, that Celexa alone did make me fuzzy, but now that I've started Adderall, the combination is really effective! In less than two months, I've come a long way....I'm having trouble remembering how low I had really sunk. It also struck me that you aren't looking for medication to make some magical transformation FOR you, but are using it as a catalyst for taking your own positive steps. Thats a notion that has just come to me recently and I like feeling as though I'm an active participant in my improvement, recovery, whatever you want to call it. Bob, you do sound like a witty, bright and thoughtful person. I like your attitude - keep up the good work.
Posted by Cam W. on April 5, 2000, at 10:25:01
In reply to Can you see the real me?, posted by bob on April 5, 2000, at 1:34:43
Dammit bob - Will you quit giving out my life story and calling it your own ;^}
- Cam W.
Posted by bob on April 5, 2000, at 15:49:18
In reply to Re: Can you see the real me?, posted by Cam W. on April 5, 2000, at 10:25:01
> Dammit bob - Will you quit giving out my life story and calling it your own ;^}
Sorry Cam, it's just that I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.
Liz, thanks (blush) ... what you're describing reminds me of a rather important concept across the board in science -- that of equilibrium. Maybe that's what we all are looking for in some way ... not just equilibrium, but a reasonable baseline that includes a sense of well-being.
The thing is, far too many people think that equilibrium is some fixed, static thing. I love reading personal ads just for those sorts of descriptions: people in search of the perfect mate who will arrive perfect and stay perfect. Well 9and here's one for Vesper ;^), Rush has a great song about just how boring eternity would be living with the unchanging perfection of life in Pleasure Dome of Kublai Khan.
There's also dynamic equilibrium, tho -- like stepping up on that big circus ball and trying to maintain your balance. My brain may have a lot of problems, but stagnation would have led me to put the barrel of a 45 in my mouth long, long ago if I had to face that sort of life.
My life may suck at times, but since I learned to start challenging my status quo it certainly has been interesting....
cheers,
bob
Posted by Liz on April 5, 2000, at 17:00:03
In reply to Goo goo ga joob, posted by bob on April 5, 2000, at 15:49:18
> > Dammit bob - Will you quit giving out my life story and calling it your own ;^}
>
> Sorry Cam, it's just that I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.
>
> Liz, thanks (blush) ...> cheers,
> bob
I made you blush! Good! Not to leave anyone out, I have been reading all Cams posts too; you and he obviously have a lot in common:) Since I just found this board and also just started taking medication, I'm extremely interested in what everyone has to say. I'm also very impressed with the level of support and amount of knowledge evident here. Bob, if you could manage to keep amusing me so consistently, I could probably go off meds! I liked your thoughts on "dynamic equilibrium." I think I've always strived for perfection - a static sense of well-being. Since I rarely achieve it, I'm constantly berating myself and am never satisfied with the results. Then I go into periods of near stupor, total apathy, more depression...anyway, enough about me. But what I think I understand you to say is that life is like that ball - being on that ball is even a good place (at least we're stuck on that ball) and some days the balancing act is a little easier and sometimes we fight to stay atop, but the effort is part of what makes life interesting and it is also inevitable. However, just now I could stand a small glimpse of life in the Pleasure Dome! Take care, Liz
This is the end of the thread.
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