![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 354 to 378 of 488. Go back in thread:
Posted by Philip N. on October 1, 2006, at 15:31:25
In reply to CLEARER STATEMENT OF MY WITHDRAWAL OPINIONS, posted by LIFE on August 10, 2006, at 18:18:33
Hello Life!
How long are you able to stay off meds when you come off and does that make it harder for you to getting back started on meds? Is it OK to start and stop or does that make it harder to get up and going again when the Depression returns?
Thanks........Philip
Posted by sabbatini on October 27, 2006, at 9:34:08
In reply to Re: CLEARER STATEMENT OF MY WITHDRAWAL OPINIONS » LIFE, posted by Philip N. on October 1, 2006, at 15:31:25
I have been on 30 mg. of this drug for 1 year. It has been the worst experience of my life....the foggy brain, sleepless nights (although the first few weeks on this drug I slept like a baby)......I am taking 15 mg. for the last 2 months and I feel horrible. My depression is unbearable and my head hurts constantly. I've never had any of these affects before taking these meds. My Dr. thought it would be a good idea when my mom passed away last year. It numbed my pain all right but, now that I'm going off of these meds I am starting to feel again and now I'm going through the loss of my mom. I will keep trying to get off of these meds but, anyone trying to decide if they want to start......Please Give It a Second Thought. I would give anything to have this out of my system.
Posted by joslynn on December 5, 2006, at 12:45:06
In reply to Re: CLEARER STATEMENT OF MY WITHDRAWAL OPINIONS, posted by sabbatini on October 27, 2006, at 9:34:08
See this is an example where I think docs over-prescribe...of course you would be depressed, you mother died. Now if it went on an on past a normal mourning period, there could be some underlying depression that was triggered by the loss. But if not, then I don't understand why they would prescribe meds.
P.S. I am on 15 mg Remeron, and was given it when I was admitted to a mental hospital for a very severe depression that had left me not eating, not sleeping and close to suicide. I went to the ER as my last chance before hurting myself. So I understand why they gave me meds and I am not agains them in general. But to give meds to someone who is in natural mourning does not make sense to me....?
I am sorry about your mom.
Posted by adubu on December 31, 2006, at 21:53:39
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by Jon90211 on March 7, 2006, at 18:02:24
I was on 45mg of mirtazapine for three years.
I thought i'd try life without it although I'd experienced no side effects, not even weight gain. I abruptly stoped the medication and now I'm paying for it severly. It has been about two weeks since my last dose. I was fine for a few days, however its been all downhill since. The insomnia is horrible. I lay awake all night long and sweat even though its cold. In addition to my sleeplessness, I have developed a tick like behavior which feels like a sudden electric shock. I wish this would stop. I dont know if ill make it,and dont know what to do.
Posted by Maritza on April 16, 2007, at 21:50:41
In reply to Jim and Tired of Panic sugar cravings, posted by LIFE on August 18, 2006, at 22:55:36
I am on 15mg of Remeron which was reduced from 30mg 2weeks ago. It helped with severe anxiety and insomnia that I developed following surgery on my cervical spine (neck). Last night I thought I would just stop taking it because it is nearly impossible to wake up. I also have gained weight and my cholesterol in increased 60 points to 241 after being on it for 11 weeks. It was a big mistake to not take my dose. I developed severe anxiety and the runs by 12:30am, then took my 15mgs. I slept but woke up with anxiety, cramps, and head that spongebrain feeling with pressure in my head all day. I have been reading all of these blogs and it does help to know I am not alone. I'm looking for advice and support because I will be starting back to work soon and I'm wondering how any of you are able to wake up and be functional with all of these side effects/withdrwal symptoms. I'd also like to know if anyone has found relief for anxiety and/or insomnia with any specific naturopathic remedies? I wish all of you the best of luck with coming off of this stuff. I have found that prayer has helped.
Best Wishes!
Maritza
Posted by jimbobwe64 on April 17, 2007, at 22:32:30
In reply to Re: Jim and Tired of Panic sugar cravings, posted by Maritza on April 16, 2007, at 21:50:41
Hello Tired of Panic and Life. I just thought I'd say hi. I haven't been on here in an obviously incredibly long time. I'm still very much off the Remeron and it's been just over 10 months now. I've gone through some pretty rough times to get here and that's pretty much why I haven't been on here. At first it was mostly Depression and severe anxiety from the withdrawal. To tell you all, I've found from several really good and reputable sources that it really does take between 18 months to 2 years to get totally rid of the withdrawal symptoms. And I've learned that it really takes some great sacrifice and patience in order to alleviate these symptoms. I'm very glad to see that you two are still on this site and I'm very, very curious to hear how you've been doing. In addition if you or anyone else have any questions about what I've been through or what I've done to alleviate the bad thoughts, etc while I'm still "drying" out (lol), I'd be more than happy to embellish. I'm still having problems, but, finally my mind is 100 percent as sharp as it was before I went on AD's over 11 years ago. I'm hoping to hear from you soon.
Jim
Posted by Maritza on April 17, 2007, at 23:10:27
In reply to Re: Jim and Tired of Panic sugar cravings, posted by jimbobwe64 on April 17, 2007, at 22:32:30
> Hello Tired of Panic and Life. I just thought I'd say hi. I haven't been on here in an obviously incredibly long time. I'm still very much off the Remeron and it's been just over 10 months now. I've gone through some pretty rough times to get here and that's pretty much why I haven't been on here. At first it was mostly Depression and severe anxiety from the withdrawal. To tell you all, I've found from several really good and reputable sources that it really does take between 18 months to 2 years to get totally rid of the withdrawal symptoms. And I've learned that it really takes some great sacrifice and patience in order to alleviate these symptoms. I'm very glad to see that you two are still on this site and I'm very, very curious to hear how you've been doing. In addition if you or anyone else have any questions about what I've been through or what I've done to alleviate the bad thoughts, etc while I'm still "drying" out (lol), I'd be more than happy to embellish. I'm still having problems, but, finally my mind is 100 percent as sharp as it was before I went on AD's over 11 years ago. I'm hoping to hear from you soon.
>
> JimHi. I'm sorry to hear you are still having problems and the thought of 18- 24 months of withdrawal sounds unbearable. I am very interested in knowing how you handled it and how long you were on it. Did your cholesterol level sky rocket and was there any change in that or your weight since you've been "dry" lol. How did you taper and did you get chest pain and palpitations with the anxiety? I want to be off this stuff ASAP but I was sick as a dog after just taking a dose 4 hours late, digestive issues, palpitations, sweating, dead-head feeling and insomnia! Any advice or feedback is greatly appreciated. You are like a hero to me that you have been "clean" for 10 months. Did you take anything else? I really don't want to substitute or suplement meds. Is this possible? Do you work? God Bless you if you've managed to keep a job through all this! Thanks for your response!
Maritza
Posted by jimbobwe64 on April 25, 2007, at 12:04:47
In reply to Re: Jim and Tired of Panic sugar cravings, posted by Maritza on April 17, 2007, at 23:10:27
Hi, Maritza. Thanks for the post. It's been a really long struggle, however, I think I'm finally starting to see the light of day. There are still some "Cloudy" days ahead, but they're getting less and less as the weeks and months go by.
First of all, I'd like to say, I'm sorry to hear that you're yet another "Victim" of the Anti-Depressant/Sleep war. To this day I don't know why Uneducated GP's (general practioner Docs) prescribe these for sleep. A well informed and qualified psychologist would never do that, I'm pretty sure. However, they seem to be few and far between, don't they.
As for cholesterol, while I was taking Remeron, I'm really amazed that my level was fine, as I had extreme, and I do mean extreme, cravings for carbohydrates (refined sugars). This fact I'm sure would have eventually led me to have high levels of bad cholesterol.
Over the last 2 months (which I find has helped immensely) I cut out my refined sugars almost completely. It's extremely tough, but, I've found it to be the only way to keep any of the symptoms at bay. There is no easy solution other than that, from what I've found. As well I haven't had any alcohol for almost a year now, and I've found that to help.
Here is a website that I've found recently that has been helping me to understand a lot about what I'm going through with the "withdrawal" process. I have a feeling that it will help a lot of you out there.
antidepressantsfacts.com/reaction.htm
As for weaning, you will learn that with most people (so I've observed), you will have to take it really slowly. What I did (with the psych's advise) was to cut the pill in quarters and reduce the dosage by 1/4 for each month period. Keep in mind that I was on AD's for over 11 years.
If you have a look at this website, you will learn that taking most herbal aides (while on withdrawal) will do more to harm your sense of normalcy than to help. This includes things like St. John's Wort, 5-HTP etc (anything that adds additional serotonin). This doesn't mean that you can't try these things after your withdrawal process is complete, as I plan to resume my St. John's Wort (it really works for me).
As for the Chest Pains and palpitations, yes, I've definitely had them, but, only if I tried to wean too fast or forgot to take the daily dosage. It doesn't take much.
There were a few days, when I was extremely "weepy", yikes. And days where I just could not get out of bed whatsoever. I still get the weepiness once in a while, but at a very, very minimal rate and the intervals between are much larger.
And I guess that one of the most important things to help is "Diet, diet, diet". Having a truly balanced diet daily will definitely be of assistance.
But, you'll find everything important to know on that websites. There are other websites similar to this, but I think this is the best one.
If you would like to know more about what I've been through, by all means ask. I'd be more than happy to "Scare" you some more, lol. Just kidding, I'm eager to help.
Hope things improve for you.
Jim
Posted by brazilnut on May 31, 2007, at 14:49:47
In reply to Re: Jim and Tired of Panic sugar cravings, posted by jimbobwe64 on April 17, 2007, at 22:32:30
> Hello Tired of Panic and Life. I just thought I'd say hi. I haven't been on here in an obviously incredibly long time. I'm still very much off the Remeron and it's been just over 10 months now. I've gone through some pretty rough times to get here and that's pretty much why I haven't been on here. At first it was mostly Depression and severe anxiety from the withdrawal. To tell you all, I've found from several really good and reputable sources that it really does take between 18 months to 2 years to get totally rid of the withdrawal symptoms. And I've learned that it really takes some great sacrifice and patience in order to alleviate these symptoms. I'm very glad to see that you two are still on this site and I'm very, very curious to hear how you've been doing. In addition if you or anyone else have any questions about what I've been through or what I've done to alleviate the bad thoughts, etc while I'm still "drying" out (lol), I'd be more than happy to embellish. I'm still having problems, but, finally my mind is 100 percent as sharp as it was before I went on AD's over 11 years ago. I'm hoping to hear from you soon.
>
> JimHi, Jim!
I'm coming out from mirtazapine after almost 3 years on 45mg daily. It took 6 months to reach 50% of the original dosage and other 6 months to the point I'm now: one small fragment each 8 hours (the 3 taken in a day add up to about 2mg).
I'm having a very hard time, sometimes I feel I'll not bear all this, mainly the anxiety. The docs say it's just anxiety (yes, I have been anxious all my life), nothing to do with withdraw, and that I have to take A/Ds or anxiolitcs. (The last one offered me a "harmless" drug, trazadone... I tried 20+ of these drugs for 8 years before discovering they were the main problem - never more!)
So, could you please tell me more about the "several really good and reputable sources" you found? It would help me to convince the docs.
Regards,
Bob
Posted by Maritza on May 31, 2007, at 16:34:53
In reply to Re: Jim and Tired of Panic sugar cravings, posted by brazilnut on May 31, 2007, at 14:49:47
> > Hello Tired of Panic and Life. I just thought I'd say hi. I haven't been on here in an obviously incredibly long time. I'm still very much off the Remeron and it's been just over 10 months now. I've gone through some pretty rough times to get here and that's pretty much why I haven't been on here. At first it was mostly Depression and severe anxiety from the withdrawal. To tell you all, I've found from several really good and reputable sources that it really does take between 18 months to 2 years to get totally rid of the withdrawal symptoms. And I've learned that it really takes some great sacrifice and patience in order to alleviate these symptoms. I'm very glad to see that you two are still on this site and I'm very, very curious to hear how you've been doing. In addition if you or anyone else have any questions about what I've been through or what I've done to alleviate the bad thoughts, etc while I'm still "drying" out (lol), I'd be more than happy to embellish. I'm still having problems, but, finally my mind is 100 percent as sharp as it was before I went on AD's over 11 years ago. I'm hoping to hear from you soon.
> >
> > Jim
>
> Hi, Jim!
>
> I'm coming out from mirtazapine after almost 3 years on 45mg daily. It took 6 months to reach 50% of the original dosage and other 6 months to the point I'm now: one small fragment each 8 hours (the 3 taken in a day add up to about 2mg).
>
> I'm having a very hard time, sometimes I feel I'll not bear all this, mainly the anxiety. The docs say it's just anxiety (yes, I have been anxious all my life), nothing to do with withdraw, and that I have to take A/Ds or anxiolitcs. (The last one offered me a "harmless" drug, trazadone... I tried 20+ of these drugs for 8 years before discovering they were the main problem - never more!)
>
> So, could you please tell me more about the "several really good and reputable sources" you found? It would help me to convince the docs.
>
> Regards,
> Bob
>
Dear Brazilnut,
I tried going from 7.5mg Remeron to 0mg two weeks ago. My psychodoc gave me Celexa 10mg to help me ween down from 15mg to 7.5mg 1 month ago. I was ok with the 1st reduction but after I tried to stop I began feeling extreemely, tired and unmotivated. On the 5th day I developed severe anxiety symptoms, my heart was racing, cold sweats, the runs, etc, in addition to being extreemely tired. I went back on the 7.5mg that night and am still taking Celexa. I have been trying very hard to lose weight by dieting and exercising with no luck. My cholesterol level continues to rise (240mg/dl). I am completely disgusted and would appreciate any advice you can give. I want off of these meds. How did you deal with the anxiety and what are your reputable sources?
Thanks Maritza
Posted by brazilnut on May 31, 2007, at 21:40:42
In reply to Re: Jim and Tired of Panic sugar cravings, posted by Maritza on May 31, 2007, at 16:34:53
> Dear Brazilnut,
> I tried going from 7.5mg Remeron to 0mg two weeks ago. My psychodoc gave me Celexa 10mg to help me ween down from 15mg to 7.5mg 1 month ago. I was ok with the 1st reduction but after I tried to stop I began feeling extreemely, tired and unmotivated. On the 5th day I developed severe anxiety symptoms, my heart was racing, cold sweats, the runs, etc, in addition to being extreemely tired. I went back on the 7.5mg that night and am still taking Celexa. I have been trying very hard to lose weight by dieting and exercising with no luck. My cholesterol level continues to rise (240mg/dl). I am completely disgusted and would appreciate any advice you can give. I want off of these meds. How did you deal with the anxiety and what are your reputable sources?
> Thanks Maritza
>Dear Maritza,
I can tell only my own experience. I learned too late I am very sensitive to medicines. Mirtazapine is the last item, I hope, on a list of medicines I had to quit, and I am doing it very slowly.
To get around anxiety I use transcendental meditation, alternate breathing (a very simple and efficient yoga technique), exercising, any physical work (like garden tending or organizing things at home), ballroom dancing, and occasionally some wine. I try also not to be anxious about anxiety – just relax when bad times start.
As for medicines, I take a phytotherapic compound (natural) sold OTC here in Brazil named Remilev, an association of Valeriana officinalis L. and Humulus lupulus L. (I don’t know the English names for those plants – probably valeriana is valerian root.) It is said to have the sedative power of a benzodiazepine without the problems. I started taking also Inderal, which seems to work for most people as an anxiety inhibitor, but showed too strong for me. I tried to wean off, it was not easy, I decided to do it after the mirtazapine.
Perhaps it would be better for you to take a slower path in the reduction. The key is to be patient, persistent, and keep believing some day all this will be over.
My best regards,
Bob
Posted by brazilnut on June 2, 2007, at 17:25:19
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine Withdrawal, posted by musky on May 24, 2006, at 0:18:05
> >
> Hi valjean:
> YES, YES and YES... talk to anyone whos successfully come off an a/d... I have been tapering myself, very very slowly... its taken 2yrs+ if you can believe it.. but I am down to the lowest dose possible and am taking my LAST remeron tonight...
> Sounds like you have some xreactivity going on there.. with other meds etc.. as for too many things happening in your life, dont we all have events going on all the time??? Id look at it as now is the time to dig deep into your life and that may help a ton more than staying on the Remeron forever until "the time is right" so to speak,, The way I see it ,it is NEVER a right time... I understand your concern but you have to know deep inside when you are ready,, know it in your heart not by lifes issues.. they will always be there... Remeron or not..
>
> Good Luck
> Musky
...Hy Musky!
How are you now?
Bob
Posted by jimbobwe64 on June 6, 2007, at 0:24:43
In reply to Re: Jim and Tired of Panic sugar cravings, posted by brazilnut on May 31, 2007, at 14:49:47
> > Hello Tired of Panic and Life. I just thought I'd say hi. I haven't been on here in an obviously incredibly long time. I'm still very much off the Remeron and it's been just over 10 months now. I've gone through some pretty rough times to get here and that's pretty much why I haven't been on here. At first it was mostly Depression and severe anxiety from the withdrawal. To tell you all, I've found from several really good and reputable sources that it really does take between 18 months to 2 years to get totally rid of the withdrawal symptoms. And I've learned that it really takes some great sacrifice and patience in order to alleviate these symptoms. I'm very glad to see that you two are still on this site and I'm very, very curious to hear how you've been doing. In addition if you or anyone else have any questions about what I've been through or what I've done to alleviate the bad thoughts, etc while I'm still "drying" out (lol), I'd be more than happy to embellish. I'm still having problems, but, finally my mind is 100 percent as sharp as it was before I went on AD's over 11 years ago. I'm hoping to hear from you soon.
> >
> > Jim
>
> Hi, Jim!
>
> I'm coming out from mirtazapine after almost 3 years on 45mg daily. It took 6 months to reach 50% of the original dosage and other 6 months to the point I'm now: one small fragment each 8 hours (the 3 taken in a day add up to about 2mg).
>
> I'm having a very hard time, sometimes I feel I'll not bear all this, mainly the anxiety. The docs say it's just anxiety (yes, I have been anxious all my life), nothing to do with withdraw, and that I have to take A/Ds or anxiolitcs. (The last one offered me a "harmless" drug, trazadone... I tried 20+ of these drugs for 8 years before discovering they were the main problem - never more!)
>
> So, could you please tell me more about the "several really good and reputable sources" you found? It would help me to convince the docs.
>
> Regards,
> Bob
>
Hey, Bob,Thanks for the question. Sorry to hear about the problems you've been having. No anxiety is a good thing, regardless of what the cause is.
First of all, I'm not a doctor, so anything I say should be scrutinized (until you get to know me, then it should be really scrutinized, lol). Anyhow, everyone's metabolism is different and only you can tell if you truly should get off a certain medication. However, if you've had anxiety before you went on any A/D med, then you really should get to the root of the anxiety, whether it be psychological or due to diet.
Second, as for sources, I have a friend whose wife is a very, very good psychiatrist who has given me a lot of sound ideas towards my recovery. I've always gone with her ideas to my doctors and have convinced them about what to do. I've just recently retired from the Canadian military and have not always had proper access to good quality psychological assistance, therefore having to rely upon, in almost all cases, general practitioners to do the job. Another source I've found in recent months and kind of helps to keep me going is as follows:
http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/reaction.htmLike I said I don't know if your anxiety is something that can be managed without the assistance of meds or not. However, I do know one thing and that is that managing your diet can only do good things for you, if not only to relieve a few of the symptoms or the whole anxiety "kit and kaboodle".
All I can say is that I've made some major changes to my diet (because, quite frankly, mine was kinda poor) and it's helped my anxiety go way down to the point where I'm actually venturing without A/D's. something I would never have thought of about 3 or 4 years ago.
If you find that changing your diet's just not doing it to relieve the anxiety, then you should keep trying new A\D's until you find the right one for you. It is very important that I say that there are some people who simply should not be off those meds. And that alone is not a bad thing either, as well it doesn't make you a bad person because you're on A/D's, as it is definitely not your fault that you have a chemical deficiency.
The one question that I do have though, Bob, is: are the docs you're seeing qualified Psychiatrists or just General Practitioners??
Hopefully this helps a bit.
Jim
Posted by brazilnut on June 18, 2007, at 15:14:34
In reply to Re: Jim and Tired of Panic sugar cravings, posted by jimbobwe64 on June 6, 2007, at 0:24:43
> Hey, Bob,
>
> Thanks for the question. Sorry to hear about the problems you've been having. No anxiety is a good thing, regardless of what the cause is.
>
> First of all, I'm not a doctor, so anything I say should be scrutinized (until you get to know me, then it should be really scrutinized, lol). Anyhow, everyone's metabolism is different and only you can tell if you truly should get off a certain medication. However, if you've had anxiety before you went on any A/D med, then you really should get to the root of the anxiety, whether it be psychological or due to diet.
>
> Second, as for sources, I have a friend whose wife is a very, very good psychiatrist who has given me a lot of sound ideas towards my recovery. I've always gone with her ideas to my doctors and have convinced them about what to do. I've just recently retired from the Canadian military and have not always had proper access to good quality psychological assistance, therefore having to rely upon, in almost all cases, general practitioners to do the job. Another source I've found in recent months and kind of helps to keep me going is as follows:
> http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/reaction.htm
>
> Like I said I don't know if your anxiety is something that can be managed without the assistance of meds or not. However, I do know one thing and that is that managing your diet can only do good things for you, if not only to relieve a few of the symptoms or the whole anxiety "kit and kaboodle".
>
> All I can say is that I've made some major changes to my diet (because, quite frankly, mine was kinda poor) and it's helped my anxiety go way down to the point where I'm actually venturing without A/D's. something I would never have thought of about 3 or 4 years ago.
>
> If you find that changing your diet's just not doing it to relieve the anxiety, then you should keep trying new A\D's until you find the right one for you. It is very important that I say that there are some people who simply should not be off those meds. And that alone is not a bad thing either, as well it doesn't make you a bad person because you're on A/D's, as it is definitely not your fault that you have a chemical deficiency.
>
> The one question that I do have though, Bob, is: are the docs you're seeing qualified Psychiatrists or just General Practitioners??
>
> Hopefully this helps a bit.
>
> JimHi Jim!
Thanks for your kind answer and information. So late to answer because life is hard down here.I asked for your sources on A/D withdrawal because I have a hard time trying to convince doctors that W/D from some medicines may last for months. They say that after a month of stopping the intake there is no more medicine in my body, so what I feel is not related to it. As if W/Ds were caused by the presence of the medicine, not the absence… I would like to find some scientific references on this, but the closest thing I came across were Prof. Ashton’s studies on benzodiazepines.
I started taking A/Ds in 1997 thanks to the ignorance of two docs. The first, an ENT with whom I would have a snoring operation, prescribed Frontal for sleeping during vacations, and told nothing about how to stop it – so I went cold turkey. The second, a psychiatrist, misdiagnosed the following severe W/D crisis as depression. Followed 10 miserable years in which I had 4 different diagnostics and tried 20+ of the strongest medicines available.
Only two years ago I discovered, reading this website, that the medicines were not solution but at least part of the problem. (Of course, I understand this happens to me and a small minority only, and many people benefit from such medicines.) I started then a very slow and difficult process of weaning off. Today morning I took the last particle of mirtazapine - I was taking 1 small fragment of about 0.5mg 3 times a day for 15 days. One year ago it was 45mg daily.
This situation – years of mixing and changing medicines – made me very anxious, and I know no medicine will help me. I am naturally anxious, but I am sure that the many W/Ds I went through magnified my anxiety. To counterbalance the absence of the mirtazapine I am taking Saint John wort and ginkgo biloba. For the anxiety I take valeriana officinalis (valerian root?) combined with humulus lupulus (sorry, don’t know the English names of these plants).
As for diet, I am a vegetarian for … 50 years! (since in the last 8 years I have been eating fish too, I am actually a “fishtarian”). I eat a lot of fruits and healthy vegetables and take supplements such as magnesium and B vitamin. I used to drink wine regularly, for many years, but decreased it naturally as my symptoms worsened - now I take half a glass weekly, or even less. Some doctors said I should take a little more to cope with the anxiety, but I prefer to be cautious.
About the qualification of my docs, I have been recently 11 months with one and 7 months with another of the best reputed psychiatrists in town, and consulted once with four others. The last one, also a nationally renowned pharmacologist, seeing my medicine list said there is nothing left to try. I have also a very good GP whom I visit regularly.
Bob
Posted by Brazilnut on June 30, 2007, at 21:27:49
In reply to Re: Jim and Tired of Panic sugar cravings, posted by jimbobwe64 on April 17, 2007, at 22:32:30
Hi everybody!Yesterday was my 10th day off mirtazapine, after almost 4 years taking it. Mirtazapine was just the last on a list of 20+ other strong medicines I have been taking the last 10 years, so these are the first 10 clean days of the past decade. I have been longing for these days for 2 years, but now they are just hell. Never worse than now.
Every morning I wake up between 4pm and 7pm with pressure in my chest, heat in my throat, difficulty to breath, occasionally palpitations. The thing in the throat slowly becomes an acute pain, which migrates also to the head. In a few hours the pain dissipates, giving place to heavy abdominal cramp, burning chest and throat and arms and legs, dizziness, depression, extreme anxiety... All the morning I am not able to work, due to the lack of concentration and anxiety. Usually I get a little better slowly, just to go to bed and wait for the next attack.
My question is whether anyone out there experienced something like this in relation to mirtazapine withdrawal. Or would it be rather a consequence of that long list (Klonopin, Stilnox, Efexor, Trileptal, Welbutrin, Tryptanol, Topamax, Risperdal…)?
Thanks for any information.
Bob
Posted by Maritza on July 1, 2007, at 23:30:46
In reply to Mirtazapine: 10 days, 10 years – a question, posted by Brazilnut on June 30, 2007, at 21:27:49
Hi Bob,
I have been on Remeron for about 6months. I have cut back from 30mg to 15mg, then to 7.5mg with 10mg of Celexa added in the am. My doctor added this to help me with the past reduction (down to 7.5mg) I tried to stop taking Remeron and still continued the Celexa about 3 weeks ago. After about 4 days I began feeling the symptoms you described. I became very tired and depressed. Then I developed abdominal cramps and the runs. This was followed by anxiety and heart palpitations along with chest pain. I took my 7.5mg dose after about 5hrs of this, and felt better within a half an hour. My doctor told me I need to stay on it for a year. He said that there are cycles to the medication and right now I am in the remission cycle. He said the next cycle is the recovery cycle where my brain should begin to manufacture its own seretonin in response to an increasing tolerance to the remeron. He said this takes time. The recovery phase should begin soon according to him. He said I could decrease my dose after being in this phase for a couple of months. I understand you were taking a very small dose for a while. I wish I could tell you what to do but I am very frustrated by this situation myself. I was satisfied with my doctors explanation but it came after months of insisting that I wanted to come off these meds. What has your doctor told you? How long have you been off of the other meds? How long were you on the last dose and what was it? I know it takes a while for your brain to adjust to each new dose. My doctor added the Celexa with my last reduction because he said it would be easier to come off of this. My pharmacist agreed with this. My doctor also said there isn't any withdrawl from Remeron.
Sometimes I feel there's a conspiracy and I'm not Schizophrenic (LOL)! Seriously, though, I worry about these withdrawl symptoms and fear they could be dangerous to my heart. I am seeing a Cardiologist this week because of the palpatations and the fact that this drug increased my cholesterol to 241 from 170 in 2months! I would also like to get the Cardiologist's opinion on withdrawing from Remeron. I read in one of these Blogs that a doctor prescribed a blood pressure med to protect the heart from increased adrenaline during withdrawl. My phsychiatrist told me Remeron is not dangerous to the heart, but he also said there aren't any withdrawl symptoms. Either he doesn't know what he's talking about or he's just plain lying to me! Anyway, I wish you the best of luck. Prayer has helped me through all of this greatly and I pray that my doctor can advice me properly. I'll pray for you. Let me know when you start feeling better. Maybe go to a medical doctor to discuss your symptoms and make sure your body is adjusting properly. I'll let you know what the Cardiologist tells me. I've also found that Magnesium supplements and potassium from juices like prune juice help to relax your nervous system. Remember that God gave you a sound mind and He is all powerful. When the symptoms come on release them to God and know that He can and will heal you. God Bless!
Maritza
Posted by Brazilnut on July 6, 2007, at 9:32:38
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine: 10 days, 10 years – a question, posted by Maritza on July 1, 2007, at 23:30:46
Maritza,
Thanks for your kind and comforting reply. It helps to know that others feel similar symptoms, so I am not crazy – or at least not crazy alone!
I´m glad to see that Celexa is helping you. As for me, I tried more than 20 of such meds in the last 10 years, and none was a solution, just another problem.
I quitted, perhaps too fast (3 months), klonopin and trileptal 2 years ago. A few months after I was feeling very bad and went for help to a psychiatrist, specialist on chemical addiction (later I learned his experience was on alcohol and street drugs). He just gave me other medicines that worsened my condition. It took me a whole year to wean off the last, risperidone. I changed to another doc, who denied any long term withdrawal – he said I had only anxiety. He gave me Inderal, a medicine prescribed for controlling blood pressure but also used for anxiety outside the US (perhaps the med you mentioned). I hoped that with time and observing what was happening to me he would believe me, but he just refused to see evidences against his beliefs. So I quitted him a month ago. Now I have only my GP, who also resists to believe in such long and painful withdrawals, but is more open to new evidences, and very competent on the other matters.
I never met a doc who believes in Remeron withdrawals; some concede there are a few cases of short and light symptoms after discontinuation. They just don´t know, because they didn´t learn it in school and never met it – luck people like ourselves are a tiny minority, I guess far less than 1%. And when they find one, they deny it, they don´t want to think about something that challenge their knowledge and their way of doing things. I don´t know how are things where you live, but here in Brazil docs have no time to pay attention to patients or to learn – unless from stuff released by pharm companies. If your case deserves special attention, specific care, forget it. You´ll be treated as the good average patient.
I took mirtazapine for 3 years, 45mg daily, and then started weaning off one year ago, very slowly, finishing it 16 days ago. The last dose was about 0,5mg thrice a day, for 15 days. The first days were not that bad, but in the last 10 days things are getting worse continually. I suspect that Inderal is part of the problem, because I am very sensitive to changes in its dose - any change will trigger a stronger attack next day. I tried to wean off it, just impossible.
Yesterday was the worst day in my life (each month I say this..) Now I don´t know what to do. Stop Inderal at any cost? Just wait until the recovery from mirtazapine starts?
Thanks again for your interest, suggestions and support. I wish your recovery starts soon. God bless you too!
Bob
Posted by 13243 on July 9, 2007, at 18:14:09
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine: 10 days, 10 years – a question, posted by Brazilnut on July 6, 2007, at 9:32:38
all. I have been on remeron/mirtazapine for the past 6 years. It was a "dream pill" for me when i first starting taking it. I had severe insomnia and tried many other meds to get it resolved but all failed. this stuff worked the first night i took it. That was great but a year later and ever since i've wanted to get off it but neve could. I felt i could "suck up" whatever withdrawals I would encounter but boy was i wrong. My symptoms were like any other time i missed A DAY of taking the stuff (15mg). I would wake up in the middle of the night figidity, headaches, nausea - you name it. I kept trying to get the courage to come off but 1 day of the above and i figured "why not stay on....." I just wanted to get off it. I had no real complaints but now that i'm almost done successfully weainging off I realized how much this thing was sedating me. I'd need 10 hours of sleep and another hour just to get my bearings straight but the rest of the day (what's left of it!) was fine. I'm like an earlier post "waiting for the right time" but like someone said above "when is the right time" so I'm giving it a shot now. I started weaing off a few weeks back. Started with 7.5 MGs a night for the first week and 3.75MG a night for the past week - should be done in a day or so. The only thing I've noticed now is that I've been a bit wiped out at times during the day but the other symptoms have seem to go away (figidity,nervous,nauseaus etc).
Good luck to whoever wants out! You'll need it. For years my only excuse for not trying more was the fear of feeling like garbage for the next day/s. I don't know why - maybe it's my time I'm feeling pretty lucky so there is hope. I have to say I had some personal issues during the past 6 years too which didn't help and I've squared them away so maybe that's the key - either way I'm excited to get off this stuff - it's a crappy feeling getting around every day making sure that "pill" is there for you - nothing worse than going away for a day or so and realizing you forgot the darn stuff knowing you're going to feel like crap!
Posted by Brazilnut on July 10, 2007, at 14:16:59
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine: 10 days, 10 years – a question, posted by 13243 on July 9, 2007, at 18:14:09
13243:
Each person is different, and I hope you aren't so sensitive as myself. One of the things I learned with great pain weaning off several meds is that at the beginning it looks like it will be easy. But after a few days on a lower dose problems start, and there’s no coming back. I spent 6 months to come from 22.5mg mirtazapine to zero, and now I think it was too fast. I finished it 21 days ago; the first 10 days were manageable, but then it started to get worse each day.
Another thing I learned is that splitting the dose along the day, instead of taking just one, helps a lot. I don’t know it will work for everybody, but it did for me with rivotril, trileptal and mirtazapine. My hypothesis is that W/d symptoms are more or less proportional to the variation of the concentration of the drug in the blood during the day. But even splitting the dose in 3 was a painful process for me.
I know what you mean by the feeling of that pill waiting for us every day. If you decided to stop it, go ahead!
Now that I finished mirtazapine, I learned that Inderal, that I started taking to lessen the mirtazapine W/D symptoms, is also very difficult to wean off… But this is subject for another board.
Good luck!
Posted by Maritza on July 11, 2007, at 13:05:16
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine: 10 days, 10 years – a question, posted by Brazilnut on July 6, 2007, at 9:32:38
Dear Bob,
I was wondering how you were coming along? I've been to see a Cardiologist about the chest pains and palpitations I've experienced, mostly when I try to stop Remeron. My Phsychiatrist just thinks it's anxiety but I would feel better being checked out. I have to take some tests and wear a halter monitor, these are comining up in the next month. My Cardiologist can't say whether I should stop the med or not. She did tell me to take magnesium supplements. I have been doing that for the past few months. It does have an effect that relaxes the nervous system. It should be taken with Calcium and Vitamine D. Calcium alone stimulates the nervous system but combined they provide a balance. I had been taking megadoses of Calcium when my symptoms started. I was recovering from cervical spine (neck) surgery where some of the bones in my neck were broken and hollowed out to remove discs and decompress the spine. They needed to grow back and fuse together to heal properly. The excess Calcium may have triggered my anxiety although I was worrying about the healing and many other things. My main question for you, at this point, is how to did divide the pills up into such small doses, (.5, etc)? also, are you only taking Inderal at this point? How does that make you feel? What is your blood pressure? Did it lower it? Do you plan on weening off of this? Did your Doctotr give this to you to help with withdrawl or did you have high blood pressure? Was it their suggestion or yours? I'm concerned with protecting my heart when I do withdraw completely. My Cardiologist told me that anxiety and depression are damaging to the heart and cardiovascular system. Thanks for your support, information and encouragement. Good luck and God Bless You!
Maritza
Posted by 13243 on July 11, 2007, at 18:14:49
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine: 10 days, 10 years – a question, posted by 13243 on July 9, 2007, at 18:14:09
Brazilnut,
thanks for the encouragement. Last night I did not take 3.75mg. I'm considering taking 3.75 tonight but not sure.....I feel ok. I'm sleeping well - a bit "quessy" at times and have had some bouts with tiredness (thank heavens i work from home so it helps if i need to take a nap which i have). It's weird - it just feels like it's my time..don't know why. Six years on this stuff and every time i even missed a day i was a mess. As I said I had some personal things going on (marital issues) that i got squared away a year or so ago so I'm in a better place. I'm just surprised (crossing my fingers too) that even though i may be moving on from the intial reasons i went on the stuff that the withdrawels have not been as bad as other times i tried to get off it.
Time will tell - I'll keep you posted!
Everyone be well
Posted by Brazilnut on July 16, 2007, at 21:51:27
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine: 10 days, 10 years – a question, posted by Maritza on July 11, 2007, at 13:05:16
Dear Maritza,
Thanks for your interest! Sorry for this so looong post.My heart and blood pressure were always OK, but I had palpitations and high blood pressure 3 years ago, when I was taking Stilnox (Ambien) and missed some doses. My GP gave me Ablok (Tenormin), a “beta blocker” such as Inderal. Ablok controlled both palpitations and pressure nicely and I took it for 2.5 years.
I’ll give magnesium a try. Was it effective for you? Are you completely recovered from the spine issue? How long did it last?
Now I answer, as much as I can, your interesting questions:
- My main question for you, at this point, is how to divide the pills up into such small doses, (.5, etc)?
I used scissors, after having tried sharp knives and a pill cutter (not good here in Brazil). I used to start with a 30mg pill and to divide it in twelve parts– of course they were not equal, but the important thing is to take each time equal or smaller amounts, as an average. To go below that size I scratched down those 1/12 pills, with the scissors or a nail, depending on the size. I prepared the necessary number for a week, all as much as possible alike (I used to take 3 a day, in order to keep the concentration in my blood as even as possible). For the next week I would prepare another batch slightly smaller. Of course at a certain point I was not able to assess the weight of the pills, but I was sure that, in the average, I was taking each week smaller or equivalent pills. So the 0.5mg was just a guess. I could buy mirtazapine in any dosage (I don’t know how small) in those pharmacies that prepare medicines to order (I don´t know the English term). It would be even much less expensive, but I tried it once and found the “power” of the drug lower than the manufactured one, what would require a painful adjustment.- also, are you only taking Inderal at this point?
I take also St. John´s Wort (in a concentrated form sold here as Iperisan), to compensate the antidepressant effect of mirtazapine; Ginkgo Biloba, as antidepressant also and brain stimulant; and valerian plus lupullus (sold here as Remilev) for sedative effect.- How does that make you feel?
Inderal was prescribed for anxiety. It looks like it is not officially indicated for this purpose in the US, but it is widely used by performers, such as musicians or speakers, to control stage fright. I stopped then the Ablok I was taking for the pressure, because they are equivalent for this purpose. That was in last December, when I was weaning off mirtazapine (45mg to 22.5mg) and risperidone (21mg to zero), and was having heavy anxiety attacks, always at wake-up time. At the beginning it worked, but with time not anymore. When I decided to quit it I discovered I couldn’t: I would have unbearable anxiety attacks with any change in doses. I made a search on the Internet and discovered that Inderal may have dozens of frightening side effects and withdrawal problems, for some persons – it seems that only for a very small minority, since it has been prescribed successfully for millions for many years (I read somewhere that at one point in time it was the most sold medicine in the US).- What is your blood pressure?
Now it is OK. At wake-up, when I have those attacks, only 13/8. The rest of the time about 11/7 (I think in the US it would be 130/80 and 110/70.)- Did it lower it?
It certainly helped to keep it down as a replacement for the other beta blocker, Ablok. Beta blockers usually lower the pressure and the heart rate.- Do you plan on weaning off of this?
Last week I took by accident two half pills (total 40mg) at bedtime, instead of the usual one. The next day was one of the worse days in my life. Similar things had happened before, with any change for plus or less. I decided then to quit it at any cost and switch back to Ablok, since I don’t recall any problem with this one. Today is the third day of the switch, and I’m having a very bad time, just for having substituted one of the three daily 20mg doses for 25mg of Ablock. Last night I was not able to sleep - each time I started I would wake-up with severe pains in the throat.- Did your Doctor give this to you to help with withdrawal or did you have high blood pressure?
In a certain sense, for the withdrawal symptoms, even considering that the doc, then a psychiatrist, believed it was only anxiety I had, not related to medicines.- Was it their suggestion or yours?
It was his suggestion.My final observation is: if you are sensitive to medicines, be cautious with Inderal. It’s a very strong medicine, acting on the brain. I can suggest you some places on the Internet where it is discussed.
Be strong and good luck!
Bob
Posted by Brazilnut on July 16, 2007, at 21:51:41
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine: 10 days, 10 years – a question, posted by Maritza on July 11, 2007, at 13:05:16
Dear Maritza,
Thanks for your interest! Sorry for this so looong post.My heart and blood pressure were always OK, but I had palpitations and high blood pressure 3 years ago, when I was taking Stilnox (Ambien) and missed some doses. My GP gave me Ablok (Tenormin), a “beta blocker” such as Inderal. Ablok controlled both palpitations and pressure nicely and I took it for 2.5 years.
I’ll give magnesium a try. Was it effective for you? Are you completely recovered from the spine issue? How long did it last?
Now I answer, as much as I can, your interesting questions:
- My main question for you, at this point, is how to divide the pills up into such small doses, (.5, etc)?
I used scissors, after having tried sharp knives and a pill cutter (not good here in Brazil). I used to start with a 30mg pill and to divide it in twelve parts– of course they were not equal, but the important thing is to take each time equal or smaller amounts, as an average. To go below that size I scratched down those 1/12 pills, with the scissors or a nail, depending on the size. I prepared the necessary number for a week, all as much as possible alike (I used to take 3 a day, in order to keep the concentration in my blood as even as possible). For the next week I would prepare another batch slightly smaller. Of course at a certain point I was not able to assess the weight of the pills, but I was sure that, in the average, I was taking each week smaller or equivalent pills. So the 0.5mg was just a guess. I could buy mirtazapine in any dosage (I don’t know how small) in those pharmacies that prepare medicines to order (I don´t know the English term). It would be even much less expensive, but I tried it once and found the “power” of the drug lower than the manufactured one, what would require a painful adjustment.- also, are you only taking Inderal at this point?
I take also St. John´s Wort (in a concentrated form sold here as Iperisan), to compensate the antidepressant effect of mirtazapine; Ginkgo Biloba, as antidepressant also and brain stimulant; and valerian plus lupullus (sold here as Remilev) for sedative effect.- How does that make you feel?
Inderal was prescribed for anxiety. It looks like it is not officially indicated for this purpose in the US, but it is widely used by performers, such as musicians or speakers, to control stage fright. I stopped then the Ablok I was taking for the pressure, because they are equivalent for this purpose. That was in last December, when I was weaning off mirtazapine (45mg to 22.5mg) and risperidone (21mg to zero), and was having heavy anxiety attacks, always at wake-up time. At the beginning it worked, but with time not anymore. When I decided to quit it I discovered I couldn’t: I would have unbearable anxiety attacks with any change in doses. I made a search on the Internet and discovered that Inderal may have dozens of frightening side effects and withdrawal problems, for some persons – it seems that only for a very small minority, since it has been prescribed successfully for millions for many years (I read somewhere that at one point in time it was the most sold medicine in the US).- What is your blood pressure?
Now it is OK. At wake-up, when I have those attacks, only 13/8. The rest of the time about 11/7 (I think in the US it would be 130/80 and 110/70.)- Did it lower it?
It certainly helped to keep it down as a replacement for the other beta blocker, Ablok. Beta blockers usually lower the pressure and the heart rate.- Do you plan on weaning off of this?
Last week I took by accident two half pills (total 40mg) at bedtime, instead of the usual one. The next day was one of the worse days in my life. Similar things had happened before, with any change for plus or less. I decided then to quit it at any cost and switch back to Ablok, since I don’t recall any problem with this one. Today is the third day of the switch, and I’m having a very bad time, just for having substituted one of the three daily 20mg doses for 25mg of Ablock. Last night I was not able to sleep - each time I started I would wake-up with severe pains in the throat.- Did your Doctor give this to you to help with withdrawal or did you have high blood pressure?
In a certain sense, for the withdrawal symptoms, even considering that the doc, then a psychiatrist, believed it was only anxiety I had, not related to medicines.- Was it their suggestion or yours?
It was his suggestion.My final observation is: if you are sensitive to medicines, be cautious with Inderal. It’s a very strong medicine, acting on the brain. I can suggest you some places on the Internet where it is discussed.
Be strong and good luck!
Bob
Posted by Maritza on July 16, 2007, at 23:16:13
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine: 10 days, 10 years – a question, posted by Brazilnut on July 16, 2007, at 21:51:41
Thank you for the very thorough response! I thought I'd tell you I am very impressed with your English, knowledge and patience ( especially in cutting the pills into 12 equal doses! LOL!)
I thought you'd find this interesting; today I took my mother (68 y/o) to a neurologist because she has alot of pain, also from herniated discs. Her doctor prescribed her Cymbalta for pain. She has never used antidepressants and is not depressed. I am completely against her use of this, for reasons which I'm sure you can imagine. She thinks it can help her because "the doctor said so". I can't decide whether these doctors are naive, ignorant or evil!
Yes, Magnesium does help calm the nervous system and I've stopped the morning dose of Celexa (10mg). I also started drinking Noni juice. There are claims of many benefits, particularly blood presure regulation and strengthening of the immune system. It is an adaptogen, so it responds to fluctuations in blood pressure by normalizing it. Many people claim they were able to stop taking BP meds just by drinking 1oz/day. I smoke so I take 3-4 oz/day. It calmed me immediately, making me feel overmedicated, so I stopped the am dose of Celexa. I plan to Quit smoking in the next few weeks. I need to be medically cleared to use the patch by my Cardiologist, who I consulted because of palpitations also. I then plan to cut back on Remeron, to about 3.5mg in about 1 month. I may restart the 10mg of Celexa at this time, if I need to, or maybe drink more Noni juice. I appreciate your correspondence so I thought you might like to know about the Noni, especially since you use supplements. I also take Ginko and have found alpha lipoic acid to be good for mental alertness. I used Valerian some years ago and found it to be addictive. It has a similar chemical makeup to valium and caused me to have tremendous mood swings. I also take some supplements that activate my metabolism, such as green tea concentrated, yerba mate and others. The list is very long. If your interested I'll list them for you. I was wondering if you had any weight gain on Remeron or loss since discontinuing it? I gained 10 lbs in 1 month and have lost it very slowly over the past three months as I changed dose from 30-7.5mg Remeron. This has been a very difficult struggle. I eat very low fat, low carb, and low calorie and include all of the necessary nutrients, etc. and excercise every day by alternating rollerblading, biking, raquetball and long walks on the beach. Thank God my neck has recovered completely and I am pain free! I need to lose 10 more lbs but I don't have three months left to be so agressive with the activity. I am a High School teacher and will begin two-jobs in September. I have been unemployed due to my injuries/surgery since last June. The doc keeps telling me that Remeron does not effect the metabolism but I disagree. Do you have an opinion on this? Thanks so much for your time, I apologize for the length of my posts. My God bless you with peace as He heals your body and mind!
Sincerey,
Maritza
Posted by Brazilnut on July 21, 2007, at 9:24:09
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine: 10 days, 10 years – a question, posted by Maritza on July 16, 2007, at 23:16:13
Dear Maritza,Thanks for your kind words. My English is not that good, I am just a perfectionist who tries hard. I lived two years in the US in the 80's, for professional reasons, and that helped – even if I was in Oklahoma… (ha ha) As for knowledge, I have only what resulted from my own long, unhappy experience, what I learned in forums like this one and from some Internet reading. Cutting those pills was really boring, but was the thing to do.
My mother, 87, was also offered an antidepressant a few months ago, for some circumstantial reason. Fortunately my sister, who takes care of her, didn’t agree. The problem with antidepressants and the like is that they are good for the majority of patients, and doctors tend to believe they are good and harmless for all. A few suffer mild side effects and withdrawal symptoms, and just a tiny minority like ourselves, which is out of the statistics, experience severe consequences. And there’s no way of knowing beforehand who will benefit and who will jump into a nightmare. Anyway, I believe that if one can avoid it, it’s better.
I had never heard of Nonin. A quick search on it with Google really impressed me. I even discovered the juice is being sold in Brazil, at US$ 80.00 per 1 liter bottle. It’s crazy, they just don’t want to sell. I’ll wait for better prices.
I have not found any previous reference to Valerian as addictive, but I’ll take care - usually what is addictive to someone is addictive to me.
I know green tea is rich in flavonoids, but I avoid it for the caffeine. Yerba mate is a traditional infusion, of Indian origin, in south Brazil. I tried it as a boy, but didn’t like - it’s hot like hell in the traditional way. What are its benefits? I would be interested in supplements for easing anxiety. Any suggestion? I am a vegetarian (actually a “fishtarian”) and have a reasonably healthy nutrition, plenty of salads, fruits and vegetables every day.
With Remeron I gained 4 kilos on top of 72, not much for 1.78m height. (Can you understand these figures?) Now I’m back to 72. My preferred exercising is ballroom dancing; it is really a therapy, for body and mind.
I am not prepared to give an opinion on Remeron and metabolism. But from a layman’s point of view, if it causes weight gain, changes sleeping, mood and sexual performance, isn’t it changing metabolism?
Thanks for praying for me. I need it.
All the best for you!
Bob
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