![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by bsj on December 10, 2003, at 14:19:39
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center-, posted by Mandybella on December 10, 2003, at 12:26:46
"And I guess I would like to check into some nice hotel like place and have the thing all over. Guess that is not going to happen"
If you got the cash, you can find rehabs that treat you like royalty. But ordinary rehab places are pitiful. Supposedly the lot of them subscribe to the addiction-as-disease paradigm, but they treat patients like criminals; it's like a doctor standing over someone in the midst of a heart-attack, chiding the victim for all the fried food he ate.
If you want to avoid rehab, take a few weeks off work and get your husband to help you. Let him control your Ambien supply. If you could get yourself down to 5 or so pills a night that would be a success. You could probably live with that for a while, then concentrate on finding other ways to deal with the insomnia.
Posted by rxnurse on December 10, 2003, at 14:24:46
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center-Great Post!, posted by krazybirdlady on December 10, 2003, at 13:55:06
Where I was working, all of the drugs including the narcs were dispensed through an ATM-like device called a Pixus. All you have to have is an access code, finger print, patient's name, and what meds you needed. So, nurses could enter false patient names or ones that have been transported to other units or even discharged. If there was any error at all when trying to get a narc out of the Pixus, it sends an alert message to the ER manager's computer and she comes looking for you for an explanation! Everything dispensed by the Pixus is on a database. On other floors the old fashioned narc log book is used which is easier to cheat because it gets passed around the floor and there are margins for error. My friend who used Demerol was mainlining it every day at work in the bathroom. She was never caught, officially. I can'not imagine being loaded at work, much less injecting myself with a needle! I have heard that Demerol in particular, is the most euphoric narcotic. It is a totally synthetic narcotic, and only used now for severe pain or for those who can't tolerate opiates. The major problem with Demerol is it's neurotoxic metabolite, which builds up in the liver. Other nurses choose Fentanyl, which is an opiate usually used during sugery. They say it produces a very pleasant high with some amnesiac effects. I guess anesthesiologists prefer Fentanyl as well. The whole thing is really very sad, for the professions as a whole. We are taught in school to give all to our profession and patients. I didn't learn a thing in school about how to take care of myself mentally nor physically when a work related crisis arose. Nurses in California are grossly overworked and underpaid. What happens when we all get sick from too much work and stress????? This is what's happening to Mandybella. Nothing is more important than your personal well-being and overall health! You can not take care of others if you are suffering. Your work must be somehow affected by the Ambien, someone is going to find out. Do not jeopardize your well-being, please seek professional help. There are lots of superb doctors, nurses and other professionals out there with your same problem. If they can do it, so can you!
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 10, 2003, at 15:02:34
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center-Great Post!, posted by rxnurse on December 10, 2003, at 14:24:46
wow, rxnurse..i am amazed that somebody could beat the system to that degree. i know that Dr.s and especially nurses are very overworked and stressed here in canada, much because of government cutbacks to our public healthcare system. but i can only guess as to the drug availability problem. my sympathies to those who succumb to the pressures. i can only imagine what it's like...
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 10, 2003, at 15:18:31
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center-Great Post!, posted by krazybirdlady on December 10, 2003, at 15:02:34
i am at a loss to describe to you what withdrawl or even tapering from ambien (called imovane in canada) is like as i personally have never seen it. i do know that it was once tauted as a relatively non-addictive drug, and that classification has now been changed. but from personal experience, most people who have taken it either complained that it doesn't work and stopped it, or managed quite nicely on their dose. i have never heard of anyone increasing it to the levels that you have. i guess most folks just give up and go back to good ol' benzos. please take rxnurse's advice and seek out the resources that are available to you. i think you already know that it won't be no hotel. no drinks by the pool. but it can be your lifesaver. i shudder to think of what might happen if customs cut you off cold turkey...
Posted by bsj on December 10, 2003, at 15:35:56
In reply to to Mandybella..., posted by krazybirdlady on December 10, 2003, at 15:18:31
It's said that Ambien is related to benzos; so I'd assume the withdrawal would be comparable. But a site on Ambien addiction lists these symptoms:
Abnormal extroversion or aggressive behavior
Loss of personal identity
Confusion
Strange behavior
Agitation
Hallucinations
Worsening of depression
Suicidal thoughts
Insomnia
Anxiety
Posted by rxnurse on December 10, 2003, at 15:59:54
In reply to Re: to Mandybella..., posted by bsj on December 10, 2003, at 15:35:56
Nothing on that list sounds like fun.
I have taken diphenhydramine or Benadryl for occasional insomnia. It worked well for me, and did not leave me with a hangover in the morning like benzo's do. However, the problem is what is causing the marked insomnia. Usually, this is caused by anxiety, depression or CNS diseases/dysfunctions. Also, once one weans off sleeping meds, many times your brain has to learn sleeping cycles again becaused they have been inactivated by the drugs for so long. Also, many of the old tricyclic antidepressants taken at night will help you sleep soundly.
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 10, 2003, at 16:17:13
In reply to Re: to Mandybella..., posted by bsj on December 10, 2003, at 15:35:56
hmmmm, no real physical withdrawl symptoms listed? not to say that the rest weren't nasty, but i really don't believe that at that dose you wouldn't have the major physical withdrawls..i.e. muscle spasms, vomiting, convulsions...etc...that is to say if you come off cold turkey...must investigate this..
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 10, 2003, at 16:21:07
In reply to Re: to Mandybella..., posted by rxnurse on December 10, 2003, at 15:59:54
> Nothing on that list sounds like fun.
> I have taken diphenhydramine or Benadryl for occasional insomnia. It worked well for me, and did not leave me with a hangover in the morning like benzo's do. However, the problem is what is causing the marked insomnia. Usually, this is caused by anxiety, depression or CNS diseases/dysfunctions. Also, once one weans off sleeping meds, many times your brain has to learn sleeping cycles again becaused they have been inactivated by the drugs for so long. Also, many of the old tricyclic antidepressants taken at night will help you sleep soundly.yes, but not after benzos...tricyclic antidepressants will work for people not aquianted with benzos, but if you are, they don't seem to have any effect at all for sleep. don't know about after ambien though...
Posted by bsj on December 10, 2003, at 17:19:22
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center-Great Post!, posted by rxnurse on December 10, 2003, at 14:24:46
rxnurse:
There's something that happened to me with the Demerol that I've never been able to explain. After making me give up my breakfast, it caused 15-20 minutes of tachycardia--120bpm or so. This has never happened with any other opiate. Could this be some kind of rebound tachycardia from the CNS depression?
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 10, 2003, at 17:41:57
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center-Great Post!, posted by bsj on December 10, 2003, at 17:19:22
when you say "give up your breakfast", do you mean you vomited? the palpitations occured after that? this is not uncommon. adverse reactions to narcotics can cause nausea and an increase in BP and palpitations. true tachycardia is when the heartrate keeps increasing...upwards of 200bpm. then medication is required to slow it. did you receive any medication or did your heartrate decrease on its own? this would be a reaction to the demerol...
Posted by bsj on December 10, 2003, at 17:46:40
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center-Great Post!, posted by krazybirdlady on December 10, 2003, at 17:41:57
"when you say "give up your breakfast", do you mean you vomited? the palpitations occured after that?"
Yes, and yes.
"true tachycardia is when the heartrate keeps increasing...upwards of 200bpm."
I've always seen it defined as any sustained heartrate greater than 100bpm.
"did you receive any medication or did your heartrate decrease on its own?"
It slowed after 15-20 minutes.
Posted by rxnurse on December 10, 2003, at 18:21:25
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center-Great Post!, posted by bsj on December 10, 2003, at 17:19:22
If Demerol is given IV, it may cause palpitaions and tachycardia. Besides being an excellent analgesic for some, it also provides as an anxiolytic. I have not idea why it would produce cardiac excitation, usually the opposite occurs. Maybe it has something to do with it's metabolite???? I have given it so infrequently these days, and most patients display the same side-effects. Everyone reacts differently to narcotics, but as long as their pain is more tolerable then the job is done. I have seen with my patients that Demerol is an excellent analgesic, more so than morphine.
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 10, 2003, at 18:22:02
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center-Great Post!, posted by bsj on December 10, 2003, at 17:46:40
again , i have to say that it was a reaction to the demerol. vomiting will raise BP and heartrate for a short period of time...was this for your kidneystone? that as well can cause vomiting..., as far as BPM, anxiety can cause sustained BPM upwards of 100, true tachycardia is a medical emergency as BPM's keep rising to the point that the heart can literally explode..
Posted by KimberlyDi on December 15, 2003, at 12:45:43
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center-Great Post!, posted by bsj on December 10, 2003, at 4:21:24
There was a guy in a treatment program who would purposely break fingers and toes to get a prescription for pain medication. All the hospitals in a 200 mile radius knew about him.
> "No kidding! We don't even give it anymore in the ER because people were coming in asking for it, straight up!"
>
> That's funny. You have to wonder where these people come from.
>
> I've experienced a good many opiates, but none ever had anywhere near the effect of Demerol. I can't even say it felt good--I don't remember; it was complete oblivion.
>
> "Substance abuse among health care professionals is serious and quite scary. It's a really stressful job to take care of others all the time, but using strong drugs at worse is really scary."
>
> I keep wondering how they could get away with it for any length of time. AFAIK, CII stuff has to be ridigly accounted for, and you think they'd install cameras in drug storerooms.
Posted by KimberlyDi on December 15, 2003, at 16:52:06
In reply to Re: to Mandybella..., posted by krazybirdlady on December 10, 2003, at 16:21:07
> yes, but not after benzos...tricyclic antidepressants will work for people not aquianted with benzos, but if you are, they don't seem to have any effect at all for sleep. don't know about after ambien though...
50mg of Imipramine at night, plus 50mg-100mg of Trazadone, helps me sleep like a baby. I don't have a history of benzo use.
KDi in TX
Posted by phunz on December 17, 2003, at 18:23:18
In reply to What happens in treatment center, posted by Mandybella on December 5, 2003, at 16:20:34
> I have a major addiction to ambien. I take 20-30 a night--that is pills, not mg. I keep trying to taper but nothing works. Of course, I have blackout periods when I remember nothing, and my husband knows but says very little. I know I need to to into treatment, but what do I tell my job. I am a nurse and I cannot afford to lose my job. I do not take the drugs from work. I get them over the internet. If I went into a treatment center, could I have a private room or do I have to give up all my rights and possessions? I was in psych once because of major depressiion and overdose attempt and I could not even keep my dental floss. I just do not know what to do, but I know I cannot keep on the way I am going. Thanks
hi! well ive only been in a rehab center once. its supposed to be one of the best in the country (search google for "chestnut ridge wv"). most staff were ex addicts (and some were too f---ed up to be helping people like me). the main doctor, the head doc that is was IMO incomptent(sp). he knew less about drugs than me (although ive taken and researched every drug out there). i had to share a room with another guy. get up at 7 to shower 8:00 was the first group... its group meatings all morning, then lunch then 30 min to yourself then meatings till 6 that night. then between 7-9 at night we would go to NA and AA meatings 6 days a week. i have sever anexity and you can imagine the "pain" i went through. they took me off all meds (antidepressents too) at WAY too fast a rate. im not a doctor or trained to tell you this but i feel if you cant control it and you want to stop go anyways (its hell but...) but if you can control it... start by taking 1-2 less pills per week would be my advice. so in 20-30 weeks you can get off them yourself much more painlessly. but you have to WANT to quit or youll never stop. if you dont really want to quit you never will. good luck and best wishes
Posted by phunz on December 17, 2003, at 18:28:58
In reply to What happens in treatment center, posted by Mandybella on December 5, 2003, at 16:20:34
oh yeah, this hot ass blonde babe came in 2 days after me and we spent any time we had making out and well other stuff we would probly have been kicked out for =) i tried to make the best of it!
Posted by Mandybella on December 17, 2003, at 19:11:31
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center, posted by phunz on December 17, 2003, at 18:28:58
I am so confused. I thought the more pricey centers would be easier to attend but it does not sound that way. I guess I am going to have to endure some pain no matter what if I want to get rid of this demon. Trouble is the craving is so bad and I just am not sure how ready I am.
Posted by krazybirdlady on December 18, 2003, at 17:57:52
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center, posted by Mandybella on December 17, 2003, at 19:11:31
yeah, unfortunately, you will have some trouble with it...but think of it this way...if you didn't have some major trouble would it really be an issue?? you can do it when you're ready...
Posted by Lindsay Rae on January 3, 2004, at 19:18:41
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center-Great Post!, posted by bsj on December 9, 2003, at 22:28:07
> "Most of the nurses I know who have entered the diversion program were addicted to heavy narcs like Demerol or Fentanyl"
>
> Just a comment on Demerol:
>
> I went to the ER once in excrutiating agony from a kidney stone; they gave me a Demerol injection and sent me home with a script for it. I don't remember the entire week following. I couldn't imagine anyone being able to work on Demerol; I sure couldn't. That's some seriously mind-warping stuff.So is black tar Heroin, but users need it just to stay "well." That's true of any opiate, given the quick tolerance build up.
Posted by Fallen4myT on January 25, 2004, at 18:28:16
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center, posted by krazybirdlady on December 18, 2003, at 17:57:52
WOW Mandy I haven't seen anyone mention THE BETTY FORD clinic as an option..and it is even for some not rich people they have programs, grants and take insurance...worth a call and a call to see what they have to say on those doses of AMBEIN.You know they have NO LONG TERM studies on this drug but doses over 40mgs are I read in an AD equal to valium I think it said at 20 mg..look for the ads... I will pray for you..I was and kinda still am scared to go off my 10- 7 1/2 mgs of Ambein a night..sometimes I take up to 20 mgs....but not often and you have kinda saved me more cause I don't think I am even gonna sneak that 20 mgs now and then anymore. I hope you post back in here you havent in a while. CHECK OUT BETTY FORD IF I knew what state you were in I would find out from my T some GOOD detox places
Sadly i must admit part of me whats to know the area you got your meds so I can get more ..not to take tons but to always know I have a way...kinda dependent mentally i guess
Posted by Mandybella on January 25, 2004, at 19:29:42
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center, posted by Fallen4myT on January 25, 2004, at 18:28:16
Just to let you all know that I did it ! Went to treatment center in Pasadena, Ca--Las Enicnas Hospital. They have an excellent program for chemically dependent and also a program for dual diagnosis(people with mental illness and chemical adddiction). I went on dual diagnosis floor since I also have depression and anxiety.
They took me off ambien and klonopin (I had been taking 2mg a day of klonopin for anxiety). Although I did not abuse klonopin, I learned that I had to be off all benzos plus alchohol, etc. because I had activated my addiction gene and had to stay away from everything.
I had an excellent therapist and doctor and the groups everyday helped me process a lot. Everyone kept expecting me to seizure as I detoxed, but I had no major problems. I learned a great deal and am determined to never relapse.
I am now 21 days clean of all substances and it is a great feeling!!! I know I need to be always in the maintenance phase and can never take even one pill because it will start the cravings. I believe I can do it. I believe in God and I think I now have a second chance to get on with my life. Thanks to everyone who posted and gave me support and info.
Posted by Fallen4myT on January 25, 2004, at 19:47:43
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center--I did it!!! » Fallen4myT, posted by Mandybella on January 25, 2004, at 19:29:42
OMG I just posted to you today and wham you DID IT,.....I am snoopy dancing for you :) I am so glad it went well and that you have made it 21 days wow..someday I pray that it is ME posting that. I suffer anxiety too and hope maybe someday when you have time you can tell us more of what and how you did it and NO seizure...too cool. I always thought they gave you Neurontin in case at a detox place..I suffer anxiety so this is such GREAT news to hear about you and also for HOPE for all of us...and think of all the cash you will save from no more meds online :)
GOD BLESS
> Just to let you all know that I did it ! Went to treatment center in Pasadena, Ca--Las Enicnas Hospital. They have an excellent program for chemically dependent and also a program for dual diagnosis(people with mental illness and chemical adddiction). I went on dual diagnosis floor since I also have depression and anxiety.
> They took me off ambien and klonopin (I had been taking 2mg a day of klonopin for anxiety). Although I did not abuse klonopin, I learned that I had to be off all benzos plus alchohol, etc. because I had activated my addiction gene and had to stay away from everything.
> I had an excellent therapist and doctor and the groups everyday helped me process a lot. Everyone kept expecting me to seizure as I detoxed, but I had no major problems. I learned a great deal and am determined to never relapse.
> I am now 21 days clean of all substances and it is a great feeling!!! I know I need to be always in the maintenance phase and can never take even one pill because it will start the cravings. I believe I can do it. I believe in God and I think I now have a second chance to get on with my life. Thanks to everyone who posted and gave me support and info.
>
>
Posted by Mandybella on January 25, 2004, at 19:52:40
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center--I did it!!!, posted by Fallen4myT on January 25, 2004, at 19:47:43
We must be on computer at same time. They did have me on a phenobarb protocol. I was on phenobarb at high dose for about 8 days with gradual taper and am still on neurontin till end of February. I am lucky I had no problems with withdrawal so I could really get the most out of the program and the group setting. The key is really to use the groups and therapist to learn as much as possible about reasons for addiction and ways to stay clean.
Posted by Fallen4myT on January 25, 2004, at 20:01:10
In reply to Re: What happens in treatment center--I did it!!!, posted by Mandybella on January 25, 2004, at 19:52:40
Yes we are...kinda makes me think God sent us here cause I really do not want to take sleeping meds my whole life. BUT in my head I am scared to even try no meds..I am so happy it went way better than you thought and I just posted back to you on my worry thread on Ambein. I am glad you have the Neurontin I am not a nurse but kinda knew that so cool I hear that helps a LOT
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Substance Use | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.