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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 67 to 91 of 102. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on November 17, 2010, at 8:47:40
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now, posted by hyperfocus on November 17, 2010, at 8:41:54
Thank you for saying what I wanted to say, but with greater clarity.
Posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 10:19:59
In reply to Re: FYI, posted by Dinah on November 17, 2010, at 8:44:36
Hitler? I do believe Hitler said and did things much worse don't you? This isn't even minutely close to that.
Posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 10:27:29
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now, posted by hyperfocus on November 17, 2010, at 8:41:54
No, what is being said is not the same thing as what was done. Nobody here did any type of threatening. Do you not see that? What is worse? To tell someone directly that the behavior is not acceptable or pretend it didn't happen and continue to let gossip reign? I don't follow your logic. People here are stating what has occurred and how the situation is something that Dr. Bob should not tolerate as they are concerned.
Posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 10:34:20
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now, posted by hyperfocus on November 17, 2010, at 8:41:54
I would welcome Phillipa to explain herself but what happens every time this occurs she deflects blame and does not address the problem.
I would like her to explain why she uses babblemail to gossip and say the things she does. This is better in the open don't you think?
Posted by hyperfocus on November 17, 2010, at 10:52:21
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now » hyperfocus, posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 10:27:29
Not specifically your posts johnj1; it just seemed to me that when you aggregate all the things that were said in this thread, it comes awfully close to bullying. A lot of unnecessary stuff was said, including threats to ostracize Phillipa. That stuff can be pretty hurtful.
>People here are stating what has occurred and how the situation is something that Dr. Bob should not tolerate as they are concerned.
I agree with you that this is what should happen. Somehow this thread turned into something else. We're all human and we all make mistakes. I think there should be a clear line between something someone does and their character. If Phillip made a mistake in judgment then that's one thing; what I'm saying is personal attacks should never happen here. I try to see the good in people because that's how I hope to be treated by them.Phillipa took it upon herself to marshal a PB tribute for ASV - that's a pretty generous and caring action to me. I haven't personally contributed 1/100 of what Phillipa has given to PB.
Posted by hyperfocus on November 17, 2010, at 10:58:57
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now » hyperfocus, posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 10:34:20
> I would welcome Phillipa to explain herself but what happens every time this occurs she deflects blame and does not address the problem.
>
> I would like her to explain why she uses babblemail to gossip and say the things she does. This is better in the open don't you think?Yes if it is happening then it is better in the open. I just want people to understand that posting on Facebook and ordinary email is very different from posting here and on babblemail and it's not unexpected that somebody might not discern the differences. There's stuff that I might say to people on FB everyday that would get me banned for 52 weeks here. So I guess asking people to account for their actions here has to be handled differently also, because we're all vulnerable here.
Posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 11:48:50
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now » johnj1, posted by hyperfocus on November 17, 2010, at 10:52:21
Fair enough. I understand your point. The intention was to call to Dr. Bob's attention these things that are happening and the repeated times this has occurred. Whether it be intimidation or threats they should not be tolerated. It is hard to determine whether this thread is "uncivil" or not. Some see it has as such maybe and some are exasperated at the times this gossip has occurred and it's intent.
Posted by 10derheart on November 17, 2010, at 11:49:09
In reply to Re: FYI » Dinah, posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 10:19:59
Uhh....I thought that was *precisely* Dinah's point.
Posted by 10derheart on November 17, 2010, at 11:54:25
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now » hyperfocus, posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 11:48:50
>It is hard to determine whether this thread is "uncivil" or not.
I don't think it's hard to determine. No, I don't think so at all. If I were still part of the admin here I would be very busy with posts on this thread.
Accused and put down - that is the standard.
Posted by 10derheart on November 17, 2010, at 11:55:45
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now, posted by hyperfocus on November 17, 2010, at 8:41:54
Thanks for your post.
Posted by gardenergirl on November 17, 2010, at 11:56:01
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now, posted by hyperfocus on November 17, 2010, at 8:41:54
I'd like to apologize to Phillipa for my comments above about gossiping. I can see how she might feel hurt by them. I didn't intent any hurt or to suggest that Phillipa or anyone else here is lacking something. Rather, I was trying to empathize, in a hypothetical way, with someone who might not be getting their needs met--needs we all have and try to meet in any number of ways. I know from my own experience that not getting basic needs met for love, esteem, belonging, etc. hurts. I'm sorry my actions added to that for anyone.
I feel bad for everyone involved. I've been on both "sides" of this at different times of my life, and neither role feels very good.
Our reactions to this, though varied, are all valid, and it's a tricky thing. For myself, I'm going to focus on my own behaviors and making sure what I do does not contribute to talking badly about anyone, either behind their backs or publicly.
gg
Posted by 10derheart on November 17, 2010, at 12:08:15
In reply to My apologies, posted by gardenergirl on November 17, 2010, at 11:56:01
Hey....humility, honesty and courage look awfully good on you, dear :-)
I was so *not* surprised to see this post and I'll bet Phillipa appreciates it.
It IS all so dicey and tricky to express empathy and talk about your own stuff without inadvertently slipping into something that sounds like a commentary on someone else......so frustrating with good intentions. I know I have a heck of a time doing it.
You done good here, IMO. {{hugs}}
Posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 13:45:21
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now » johnj1, posted by 10derheart on November 17, 2010, at 11:54:25
"Accused and put down - that is the standard."
Surely you jest. If not, wow, it must be nice in that ivory tower.
Posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 13:53:56
In reply to Re: FYI » johnj1, posted by 10derheart on November 17, 2010, at 11:49:09
I have no idea which post you are referring to but if you actually believe nothing has gone on via babblemail, recently or in the past, that is wrong, I can't help or explain it to you. I do believe we have had this discussion in the past and it appears your position is the same: Let's turn a blind eye.
Posted by gardenergirl on November 17, 2010, at 14:12:32
In reply to Re: FYI, posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 13:53:56
> I have no idea which post you are referring to but if you actually believe nothing has gone on via babblemail,
Regardless of what did or did not go on via babblemail, we cannot accuse someone or cause them to feel accused of what may or may not have gone on via babblemail. The way to have behavior addressed by Dr. Bob that one thinks is uncivil or needs some sort of sanction is to either send a notification on a post in question, or in the case of a babblemail, forward the babblemail with headers to Dr. Bob. The civility guidelines do not allow for us to post about someone or their behavior to complain. We CAN, however, post about our feelings related to the behavior, but that has to be from a first person standpoint. We can say I'm angry or sad or whatever, but NOT "Your action made me angry or sad or whatever."
I don't think it's turning a blind eye, per se. It's more turning a discrete eye by keeping the complaint off the boards. You can find more about the civility guidelines in the FAQ http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Feel free to babblemail me if you want to talk more about this.
gg
Posted by 10derheart on November 17, 2010, at 14:35:29
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now » 10derheart, posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 13:45:21
Sorry, I don't understand "ivory tower?" Sarcasm? {shrug} Probably my ADD - I am a little dense about expressions, I guess. (I am a little bit afraid of heights, so being in a tower sounds not-so-nice....)
I was just reiterating a portion of Dr. Bob's civility rules from the FAQ:
"Please respect the views of others even if you think they're wrong. Please be sensitive to their feelings even if yours are hurt. Different points of view are fine, and in fact encouraged, but your freedom of speech is limited here. It can be therapeutic to express yourself, but this isn't necessarily the place.
Please don't be sarcastic, treat injury or death lightly, suggest that others harm (or use this site to exchange information that could be used to harm) themselves or others, jump to conclusions about others, post anything that could lead others to feel ***accused or put down***, harass or pressure others, use language that could offend others, disclose without permission information (including previous posting names) that identifies or private communications from another poster, post information that you know to be false, exaggerate or overgeneralize -- etc. Even if you're quoting someone else."
Probably several parts of that would apply in this thread. I was just attempting to say I don't think it would be difficult at all to determine, keeping the rules in mind.
Posted by maxime on November 17, 2010, at 15:03:09
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now » johnj1, posted by 10derheart on November 17, 2010, at 14:35:29
Yes, I sent the Babble Mails to Dr. Bob, but I have not a response from his yet. My guess is that he will have no problem with what Phillipa sent me ... as usual.
This is second time that Phillipa and I have had an altercation over Babble Mails. About 2 years ago she started a rumour that I went after the men on the group. She went so far as to Babble Mail all new male posters and "warn" them about me. The rumour spread, as rumours do, and it came back to me. It was untrue of course, but I was humiliated. I ended up leaving PB for a long time. It doesn't seem fair that I had to leave (even though I choose to)whilst Phillipa was allowed to stay on PB with not a single PBC let alone a block.
I am tired about being the root of her gossip.
Posted by maxime on November 17, 2010, at 15:07:33
In reply to Re: FYI, posted by maxime on November 17, 2010, at 15:03:09
I forgot the quote I wanted to add:
Trying to squash a rumor is like trying to unring a bell. ~Shana Alexander
and
It isn't what they say about you, it's what they whisper. ~Errol Flynn
Posted by SLS on November 17, 2010, at 16:15:17
In reply to Re: FYI, posted by maxime on November 17, 2010, at 15:07:33
Hi.
I was going to write some long-winded post so as to muse over this situation. After enough time had passed, I realized that there was nothing much that I had to say. It is unfortunate that people have been hurt.
- Scott
Posted by gardenergirl on November 17, 2010, at 17:59:18
In reply to Re: FYI, posted by maxime on November 17, 2010, at 15:03:09
Maxime, I would be livid if I thought someone did that to me. Livid. That being said, I really enjoy your participation on Babble, and I don't want to see you get blocked. So while I can empathize with you in the situation you described and can understand wanting to disclose this, I can see where Phillipa could feel accused. Rightly or wrongly.
And I can understand feeling really frustrated were I in the situation you described, especially if you feel unsupported by Dr. Bob. All I can say is what I said to you privately and now publicly--character speaks.
gg
Posted by Willful on November 17, 2010, at 18:32:56
In reply to Re: FYI, posted by Dinah on November 17, 2010, at 8:44:36
~~~~Phillipa, the actions of those on this thread say a lot about them, and only tangentially anything about you. This thread might have been something that was justified against Hitler. You aren't Hitler. ~~~
I'm at a loss to understand this comment
I don't find anything that was said or done in this thread that is remotely like the type of things that are deserved only by someone as evil as Hitler.
Some few people ( there only seem to be two or three) who have spoken up (hardly enough to constitute ganging up against Phillipa, given especially that she has had her defenders here too) are legitimately upset about some things that Phillipa has done. Whether anything uncivil has been said in this I leave up to Bob. However, it is entirely understandable to be upset about some of the events here that are not denied by Phillipa.
I would certainly feel accused if someone said any comments I directed toward Phillipa were so accusatory as to be deserved only by someone like Hitler. So I guess there may be lots of hurt feelings and accusations flying around here.
Everyone, I hope, has had a chance to express their upset feelings. Perhaps some of that has hurt other people Perhaps it's just time for everyone to step back and wait for Bob to consider all this. Probably Maxime, who's been going through a very hard time lately, wanted some support in the circumstances, which led to her posting rather than dealing with things entirely privately . If that has hurt Phillipa, it likely wasn't the primary intention.
I wouldn't want to hurt Phillipa, but I also sympathize with Maxime and others who feel very disturbed by various events that have, in fact, occurred. So I guess a degree of compassion and mutual understanding is called for on all sides.
I hope people can come back to their better feelings and equanimity. I would hate to see anyone get blocked. And I"m concerned that this may happen unless we made some amends for any hurt that has been inadvertently caused.
Willful
Posted by Dinah on November 17, 2010, at 19:36:59
In reply to Re: FYI, posted by Willful on November 17, 2010, at 18:32:56
Perhaps you're right. I apologize for my hyperbole.
Hyperfocus expressed himself better than I did. I'd like to second what he said.
Posted by floatingbridge on November 18, 2010, at 15:44:58
In reply to Re: FYI, posted by Dinah on November 17, 2010, at 8:44:36
> I cannot bear to be here any longer.
>
> I hurt so much for Phillipa. I hurt so much I am shaking and crying. Of course, I no longer self injure, so perhaps my pain and Phillipa's pain are of no concern to anyone.
>
> I can't imagine what anyone could say behind the scenes that could hurt more than this very public thread.
>
> I can't imagine that a threat of any babblemail could be worse than the reality of this. What on earth could Phillipa's husband do? Say nasty things? Start a thread to shame Maxime? Moreover *he* didn't do it. And there is always the choice of forwarding any babblemail to Dr. Bob without even reading it. No one need be assaulted by words in a Babblemail if it is expected. There is always the choice to delete a babblemail unopened if it is from someone you don't wish to hear from. If it is suspected to contain uncivil material,
it can be forwarded to Dr. Bob with headers without being read.
>
> Has Phillipa's babblemail even been forwarded to Dr. Bob?
>
> I don't wish to be at Babble if this is considered an ok thing to do. I became a deputy because I could not bear to see these things. If I can do nothing to stop
it, I cannot be here. It hurts. It feels like middle school all over again. Those people too believed they had reason to try and humiliate me. Of course, they could not. Their actions reflect on them, not on me.
>
> Phillipa, the actions of those on this thread say a lot about them, and only
tangentially anything about you. This
thread might have been something that was justified against Hitler. You aren't Hitler.
>
> (Lord of the Flies is generally used to refer to the actions of a group of those
who reject the mediating role of civilization over the savagery of human nature. Not to refer to a single gossip. If
there can even be a single gossip.)I am not reading anymore. I feel sick to my stomach and about to cry.
Dinah, I thank you for addressing this thread as far as you have. I so appreciate your efforts and ability to maintain, restore, and model basic civility, (not to be confined to the PB definition).
I strive, and fail, and strive to honor and respect the human being in us all. That is my intention. That is what I want for myself, my son, for every babbler, no matter how angry or upset I feel.
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on November 18, 2010, at 16:12:24
In reply to Re: Could we stop the flogging now » 10derheart, posted by johnj1 on November 17, 2010, at 13:45:21
I am happy to have you as a friend. I always have been. You welcomed me here 1+ years ago. You have been civil, kind, and supportive in all our interactions. On board I experience you as helpful, welcoming, curious about others, and both outgoing and shy at the same time.
I do not know why there is this controversy. You do not deserve the disrespect being shown you.
fb
Posted by johnj1 on November 18, 2010, at 19:49:09
In reply to Phillipa, posted by floatingbridge on November 18, 2010, at 16:12:24
What about the other people that were disrespected? Do they not matter? Have you paid attention to the thread? The gossip and the intimidation? I bet you would feel different if you were the brunt of that bullying. My gosh, people are hard to understand sometimes.
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