![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 38. Go back in thread:
Posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 14:21:02
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers*** » fayeroe, posted by Phillipa on July 7, 2009, at 12:25:29
> And I was thinking southern California. Phillipa
And certain enclaves in the north coast.
Posted by fayeroe on July 7, 2009, at 15:25:13
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 14:20:04
> > When you talk about the location where your friend lives and how hard it is to get realistic help..it causes me to think that your friend might live near Santa Fe, NM>
>
> I know that area well, and it typifies the milieu to which I refer. Thing that draws people to that place especially is not just the ambient mysticism, but also the deep, grounded indigenous culture - not just "aboriginal", but also a long-term largely hispanic culture as old as that which sprang from Plymouth rock, sans urbanism.
>
> Having retreated to such an environment, do you think a person could then find solace in a more urbanized environment?
>
>
> I lived in Pilar, south of Taos, for ten years and I enjoyed it very much. A Spanish village of 125 people and I was worked very hard to fit in and practice gardening, and such, as the villagers did. I wasn't i nterested in the "superficial life" in Taos or Santa Fe.I learned to do things by the moon and I listened to the elders. I frequently would visit a man who lived near the mesa and we might sit in silence for 3 or 4 hours. My closest neighbor was the mother of the man I dated. Onita was in her 80s and taught me many things about myself.
At that time I was working on a book on indian rodeo and that was a bone of contention several times with the man I dated while there. He was 1/2 spanish and 1/4 apache and 1/4 navajo. The Spanish are outspoken in their feelings towards anglos and indians.
I found a group of like minded women, who think out of the box, and we opened our own gallery. In our group we had some women whose lives were very balanced. We started meeting twice a week and I can honestly say that I learned more about myself in ten years than I had learned in the previous 45.
It was a time of great healing and growth for me and I believe that your friend could benefit from that space. The thing to watch out for are the people who literally dropped out of another society and moved there. For the most part those people are very bitter and, in a way, lost.
One more thing, I owned a bed and breakfast and I believe that being around so many different people from different cultures and environments helped me sort my priorities out in a positive manner.
Pat
p.s. When I moved back to Oklahoma, I went to our ranch and stayed there (2+years) until I felt that I could integrate myself back into a space that was going to be faster and more hectic. I now live in a very small town in Texas. I would go back and do everything the same if I felt that it would be beneficial.
Posted by SLS on July 7, 2009, at 15:29:49
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers*** » SLS, posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 14:13:59
> > I think I have a better understanding of your friend's (and your) situation now. You can sure write!
> >
> > Your friend has no place to be.
> >
> > Perhaps a monastery of some sort?
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> In a tribute to folk-music legend Leonard Cohen, he describes his years as a practicing, ordained Buddhist monk. "I was gracious to everyone, but I hated everybody."
>
> I've found my analysis of authoritarian belief systems interferes with my integration in religious communities. Practical authority - exigencies of the day like planting, harvest and weather, that I understand.
>
> "Roshi said...?" That doesn't ring nearly as true in my mind. An egalitarian community would warm my heart. Or I could use my profound writing skills to explain why they all died -- except no publisher wants to tell the story.
I was thinking more of some of the Eastern philosophies.
- Scott
Posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 16:01:35
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by SLS on July 7, 2009, at 15:29:49
> > > I think I have a better understanding of your friend's (and your) situation now. You can sure write!
> > >
> > > Your friend has no place to be.
> > >
> > > Perhaps a monastery of some sort?
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> > In a tribute to folk-music legend Leonard Cohen, he describes his years as a practicing, ordained Buddhist monk. "I was gracious to everyone, but I hated everybody."
> >
> > I've found my analysis of authoritarian belief systems interferes with my integration in religious communities. Practical authority - exigencies of the day like planting, harvest and weather, that I understand.
> >
> > "Roshi said...?" That doesn't ring nearly as true in my mind. An egalitarian community would warm my heart. Or I could use my profound writing skills to explain why they all died -- except no publisher wants to tell the story.
>
>
> I was thinking more of some of the Eastern philosophies.
>
>
> - Scott
East of Tibet? Taoist or Hindu maybe?I find plenty to admire in their experience, but the religious experience, especially when exported from a land where it's been disrupted often clashes with some of my personal experience.
intentional community rings a bit more true, but...
Has anyone else noticed that our bodies are made of Real Estate? Creation story: on day 1, god called the local realtor to find a piece of land. Working through his realtor, he reached good deal with the seller, called a banker and got a loan. After closing the deal, he shaped the Real Estate into a hominid shape, breathed a second mortgage into it, made us sign a deal promising to forever pay for what we are made of and here we are?
Posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 16:16:59
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers*** » Timne, posted by fayeroe on July 7, 2009, at 15:25:13
> > > When you talk about the location where your friend lives and how hard it is to get realistic help..it causes me to think that your friend might live near Santa Fe, NM>
> >
> > I know that area well, and it typifies the milieu to which I refer. Thing that draws people to that place especially is not just the ambient mysticism, but also the deep, grounded indigenous culture - not just "aboriginal", but also a long-term largely hispanic culture as old as that which sprang from Plymouth rock, sans urbanism.
> >
> > Having retreated to such an environment, do you think a person could then find solace in a more urbanized environment?
> >
> >
> > I lived in Pilar, south of Taos, for ten years and I enjoyed it very much. A Spanish village of 125 people and I was worked very hard to fit in and practice gardening, and such, as the villagers did. I wasn't i nterested in the "superficial life" in Taos or Santa Fe.
>
> I learned to do things by the moon and I listened to the elders. I frequently would visit a man who lived near the mesa and we might sit in silence for 3 or 4 hours. My closest neighbor was the mother of the man I dated. Onita was in her 80s and taught me many things about myself.
>
> At that time I was working on a book on indian rodeo and that was a bone of contention several times with the man I dated while there. He was 1/2 spanish and 1/4 apache and 1/4 navajo. The Spanish are outspoken in their feelings towards anglos and indians.
>
> I found a group of like minded women, who think out of the box, and we opened our own gallery. In our group we had some women whose lives were very balanced. We started meeting twice a week and I can honestly say that I learned more about myself in ten years than I had learned in the previous 45.
>
> It was a time of great healing and growth for me and I believe that your friend could benefit from that space. The thing to watch out for are the people who literally dropped out of another society and moved there. For the most part those people are very bitter and, in a way, lost.
>
> One more thing, I owned a bed and breakfast and I believe that being around so many different people from different cultures and environments helped me sort my priorities out in a positive manner.
>
> Pat
>
> p.s. When I moved back to Oklahoma, I went to our ranch and stayed there (2+years) until I felt that I could integrate myself back into a space that was going to be faster and more hectic. I now live in a very small town in Texas. I would go back and do everything the same if I felt that it would be beneficial.
>
>
That's a wonderful story. If you'd been Islamic, or generally sympathetic to Talmudic and Sharia principals, and had not enjoyed the benefit of holding a mortgage on a business things might not have gone so well.That area is littered with the broken dreams, and the abandoned hand-built homes, of people who would have gone "back to the land to get their soul free" but weren't accepted by the millionaires and their friends who sang that song because the singers and the idealist listeners had different economic ideals.
The enclaves there didn't last nearly as long, nor never took as deep root as those West Coasties who went with Steve and Ida Maye to Summerset. That effort looked like a newborn star when it flashed through the atmosphere but it landed as a cold, hard rock, like so many other shooting stars. For some reason -- maybe it was longer growing seasons, better soil and more complete genocide in that area which left less cultural conflict to be resolved -- but...
...do you feel me Fayroe? I don't need to get myself back to the garden. *We* have got to get *our*selves back, and I'm feeling godawful alone in a desert that could be blossoming with beauty. Sitting down with a banker just doesn't seem to me to be part of the trip, but refusing that sit-down is definitely a factor in the social isolation
that my friend suffers.
Posted by Sigismund on July 7, 2009, at 18:15:29
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 16:01:35
>Has anyone else noticed that our bodies are made of Real Estate? Creation story: on day 1, god called the local realtor to find a piece of land. Working through his realtor, he reached good deal with the seller, called a banker and got a loan. After closing the deal, he shaped the Real Estate into a hominid shape, breathed a second mortgage into it, made us sign a deal promising to forever pay for what we are made of and here we are?
Is that the price of having a saviour?
Posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 18:57:46
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Sigismund on July 7, 2009, at 18:15:29
> >Has anyone else noticed that our bodies are made of Real Estate? Creation story: on day 1, god called the local realtor to find a piece of land. Working through his realtor, he reached good deal with the seller, called a banker and got a loan. After closing the deal, he shaped the Real Estate into a hominid shape, breathed a second mortgage into it, made us sign a deal promising to forever pay for what we are made of and here we are?
>
> Is that the price of having a saviour?just a mixed metaphor drawing on my own experiences. The situation did seem to arise out of centuries during which professing to have a savior was mandatory.
Posted by SLS on July 7, 2009, at 19:59:23
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 18:57:46
Perhaps it makes sense to build upon what is rather than to lament what isn't.
Only from what is can come what isn't.
It must be a very empty experience to do otherwise.
- Scott
Posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 22:32:44
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by SLS on July 7, 2009, at 19:59:23
> Perhaps it makes sense to build upon what is rather than to lament what isn't.
>
> Only from what is can come what isn't.
>
> It must be a very empty experience to do otherwise.
>
>
> - Scott
I at least appreciate the intent to support or counsel.
On emptiness, I'm amazed that so many people counsel to pursue the mind of an empty vessel as a spiritual goal, yet try to treat emptiness as a disorder at the same time. Ifmy friend
could just empty the vessel without painting in colors of Tibetan royalty or Hollywood mysticism, the person might not be considering emptying the vessel of red corpuscles entirely.
Posted by SLS on July 8, 2009, at 5:30:36
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 22:32:44
I guess everyone finds his own path to spiritual fulfillment. I just happen to find existence to be the source of my spirituality. I find spirituality in logic. I also find it in intuition. The spirituality that I have found for myself helps me to integrate both of these into a the Gestault. I see introspection as a vehicle for me to better understand myself and the world that I sense around me. I am spiritually fulfilled despite the lack of certitude.
It works for me.
I wouldn't know what to suggest to someone who is spiritually empty. It took a very long time, and an extremely tumultuous road travelled for my seeking nature to find spiritual resolution.
Every now and then, as happens to most everyone, I have been asked, "What is the meaning of life?" I usually respond quite simply that life is its own meaning.
The beauty I see in the order of the Universe, despite entropy, helps to reinforce my spiritual being, and encourages me to nurture it so that it may grow. At the moment, I feel that I have a firm root system upon which to do so.
It works for me.
- Scott
Posted by Timne on July 8, 2009, at 10:25:06
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers*** » Timne, posted by SLS on July 8, 2009, at 5:30:36
> I guess everyone finds his own path to spiritual fulfillment. I just happen to find existence to be the source of my spirituality. I find spirituality in logic. I also find it in intuition. The spirituality that I have found for myself helps me to integrate both of these into a the Gestault. I see introspection as a vehicle for me to better understand myself and the world that I sense around me. I am spiritually fulfilled despite the lack of certitude.
>
> It works for me.
>
> I wouldn't know what to suggest to someone who is spiritually empty. It took a very long time, and an extremely tumultuous road travelled for my seeking nature to find spiritual resolution.
>
> Every now and then, as happens to most everyone, I have been asked, "What is the meaning of life?" I usually respond quite simply that life is its own meaning.
>
> The beauty I see in the order of the Universe, despite entropy, helps to reinforce my spiritual being, and encourages me to nurture it so that it may grow. At the moment, I feel that I have a firm root system upon which to do so.
>
> It works for me.
>
>
> - Scott
>Scott,
Your approach to spirituality seems very similar to mine. I have to support your claim that it works for you, only if out of Senatorial Protocol, but, well, you are here and you're on record here discussing your experience with the same sort of dilemma, if not the same dilemma, as do I.
I'm not convinced my spirituality nor my emptiness is the problem. My problem might be more related to reactions to my emptiness. My problems (like those of my at-risk friend, and the character in a book I'm researching [in the event I need to sue a P-doc, a ISP and a local police department for sending armed, politically motivated psychological police to my door instead of to my friend's door]) are primarily social, economic and cultural, not psychological or spiritual. The use of psychiatric medicine or psychological claims to neutralize political, cultural and social dissidents is widely recognized by such advocates as Amnesty International and the like. It just doesn't happen in the land of the free. Wherever that is.
The dilemma for people such as myself, my friend and characters I might create for the sake of discussion, is that the primary response in Western communities is to treat these dilemmas as spiritual and psychological rather than as practical, economic and social.
Imagine sitting, empty of desire, in a room full of millionaires who just returned from their eight-day retreat, all boasting about the profound emptiness they achieved and how their newly recharged "emptiness" will pay off in financial terms as they return to their busy lives. They've emptied their minds of all the conflict between what they say they are and what they are. I ask "Can I just sit, today. I need to work on something personal." "No, we have work to do, and by the way, I'm raising your rent, because I need to pay for my trip to Nepal on a 747."
Logic, intuition, mere existence -- these all nurture me, but they are too much or too little for the "enlightened" I've kept company with lately.
Mere existence -- that's narcicistic self-satisfaction (at least according to plentyoffish's algorythm, which draws on major psychological theories of our time). People satisfied with a lowly economic status are not to be trusted by standards I've encountered in the workplace. They lack ambition, and no matter the value of the logic or intuition they offer, if they don't want to use it to advance their financial position, it's probably an artifact of pathology, at least according to popular capitalist culture.
Logic -- "you need to be more sensitive to people. Bring them along -- you don't have to confront them with facts (in the workplace where the facts are the substance of our business)" Intuition -- "well we all have intuition. The problem is your intuition says something different than mine. Don't bring your personal preferences to work, please. And by the way, what's your sign. I want to read your chart to see why you claim to have intuition at all."
Logic and intuition reveal to me the authoritarian basis for these behaviors. So I pursued work where logic and truth were supposedly the foundation. What I found was explicit lies perpetrated by the very institutions we rely on to keep our collective narrative on a logical path.
Sophie Scholl didn't die because she had a spiritual problem, or because she was "empty." She died because she dared confront a problem 99.99% of us will agree was a problem worth confronting with all of our nation's resources, and with the lives of some of our best and brightest.
Frankly, I'm fed up. I'm fed up that, 8 years after the attacks, the vast majority of Westerners can't articulate the fundamental difference in approaches to finance between the culture from which the attackers were recruited and that championed at the specific location and by the very businesses that were attacked. Those aren't spiritual or psychological dilemmas for me, except that I need the psychological strength to live in a confused, illogical, misdirected and self-serving social milieu.
Posted by SLS on July 8, 2009, at 14:19:08
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 8, 2009, at 10:25:06
> > I guess everyone finds his own path to spiritual fulfillment. I just happen to find existence to be the source of my spirituality. I find spirituality in logic. I also find it in intuition. The spirituality that I have found for myself helps me to integrate both of these into a the Gestault. I see introspection as a vehicle for me to better understand myself and the world that I sense around me. I am spiritually fulfilled despite the lack of certitude.
> >
> > It works for me.
> >
> > I wouldn't know what to suggest to someone who is spiritually empty. It took a very long time, and an extremely tumultuous road travelled for my seeking nature to find spiritual resolution.
> >
> > Every now and then, as happens to most everyone, I have been asked, "What is the meaning of life?" I usually respond quite simply that life is its own meaning.
> >
> > The beauty I see in the order of the Universe, despite entropy, helps to reinforce my spiritual being, and encourages me to nurture it so that it may grow. At the moment, I feel that I have a firm root system upon which to do so.
> >
> > It works for me.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
> >
>
> Scott,
>
> Your approach to spirituality seems very similar to mine. I have to support your claim that it works for you, only if out of Senatorial Protocol, but, well, you are here and you're on record here discussing your experience with the same sort of dilemma, if not the same dilemma, as do I.
>
> I'm not convinced my spirituality nor my emptiness is the problem. My problem might be more related to reactions to my emptiness. My problems (like those of my at-risk friend, and the character in a book I'm researching [in the event I need to sue a P-doc, a ISP and a local police department for sending armed, politically motivated psychological police to my door instead of to my friend's door]) are primarily social, economic and cultural, not psychological or spiritual. The use of psychiatric medicine or psychological claims to neutralize political, cultural and social dissidents is widely recognized by such advocates as Amnesty International and the like. It just doesn't happen in the land of the free. Wherever that is.
>
> The dilemma for people such as myself, my friend and characters I might create for the sake of discussion, is that the primary response in Western communities is to treat these dilemmas as spiritual and psychological rather than as practical, economic and social.
>
> Imagine sitting, empty of desire, in a room full of millionaires who just returned from their eight-day retreat, all boasting about the profound emptiness they achieved and how their newly recharged "emptiness" will pay off in financial terms as they return to their busy lives. They've emptied their minds of all the conflict between what they say they are and what they are. I ask "Can I just sit, today. I need to work on something personal." "No, we have work to do, and by the way, I'm raising your rent, because I need to pay for my trip to Nepal on a 747."
>
> Logic, intuition, mere existence -- these all nurture me, but they are too much or too little for the "enlightened" I've kept company with lately.
>
> Mere existence -- that's narcicistic self-satisfaction (at least according to plentyoffish's algorythm, which draws on major psychological theories of our time). People satisfied with a lowly economic status are not to be trusted by standards I've encountered in the workplace. They lack ambition, and no matter the value of the logic or intuition they offer, if they don't want to use it to advance their financial position, it's probably an artifact of pathology, at least according to popular capitalist culture.
>
> Logic -- "you need to be more sensitive to people. Bring them along -- you don't have to confront them with facts (in the workplace where the facts are the substance of our business)" Intuition -- "well we all have intuition. The problem is your intuition says something different than mine. Don't bring your personal preferences to work, please. And by the way, what's your sign. I want to read your chart to see why you claim to have intuition at all."
>
> Logic and intuition reveal to me the authoritarian basis for these behaviors. So I pursued work where logic and truth were supposedly the foundation. What I found was explicit lies perpetrated by the very institutions we rely on to keep our collective narrative on a logical path.
>
> Sophie Scholl didn't die because she had a spiritual problem, or because she was "empty." She died because she dared confront a problem 99.99% of us will agree was a problem worth confronting with all of our nation's resources, and with the lives of some of our best and brightest.
>
> Frankly, I'm fed up. I'm fed up that, 8 years after the attacks, the vast majority of Westerners can't articulate the fundamental difference in approaches to finance between the culture from which the attackers were recruited and that championed at the specific location and by the very businesses that were attacked. Those aren't spiritual or psychological dilemmas for me, except that I need the psychological strength to live in a confused, illogical, misdirected and self-serving social milieu.
I think my way is simpler. I really am a very simple man. For me, I find that there is enough complexity in life not to complicate it further by devoting my intellectual energies into designing a universe composed of Ptolemeic epicycles.I found that when I operate with too many intellectual filters, not enough light comes through.
I don't know if any of this makes me a narcissist, but if it does, it seems that I have found a way (acceptance) to be happy and economically challenged at the same time.
- Scott
Posted by Sigismund on July 8, 2009, at 15:40:13
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 8, 2009, at 10:25:06
>the vast majority of Westerners can't articulate the fundamental difference in approaches to finance between the culture from which the attackers were recruited and that championed at the specific location and by the very businesses that were attacked.
This is getting interesting. You are talking about Sharia banking? (Allow me to just remark in passing on the difference of attention given to MJ as against the latest Afghan wedding party blown to bits. What are they doing walking around anyway?) Some largish percentage (10 or 15%?) of the world's banking is Sharia based. As I understand it they go in for joint ventures.
Posted by Timne on July 8, 2009, at 15:49:00
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Sigismund on July 8, 2009, at 15:40:13
> >the vast majority of Westerners can't articulate the fundamental difference in approaches to finance between the culture from which the attackers were recruited and that championed at the specific location and by the very businesses that were attacked.
>
> This is getting interesting. You are talking about Sharia banking? (Allow me to just remark in passing on the difference of attention given to MJ as against the latest Afghan wedding party blown to bits. What are they doing walking around anyway?) Some largish percentage (10 or 15%?) of the world's banking is Sharia based. As I understand it they go in for joint ventures.
>
>Okay, the rest of you give me some companionship and at least a notion of alternative ways of thinking, but Sigismund gets a point for giving me a reason to live another day. "Sharia banking." First time I've heard that term (or read it in response to a clue-prompt) since I learned about it.
And to top it off, you managed to do it without insulting the 10 to 15 percent of the world that embrace that particular economic morality. The usual is "yes, but they have a way to get around it." and "yes, but that's just to keep them in their place under rich sheiks" as if the vast majority of mortgage holders in Western countries aren't similarly beholden, many locked into jobs with which they have deep ethical concerns but which they cannot leave because of their debt burden.
Yes, Sharia banking. Where do I sign up? (hint -- Fanny Mae has Sharia-compliant instruments)
Posted by Sigismund on July 8, 2009, at 16:51:14
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 8, 2009, at 15:49:00
I was lucky enough to go to a particular session at a writers festival where a banker had who had just written a book on banking was speaking. She had interesting things to say about the Chinese way of doing banking, which we will see more of.
I know Islamic practice places a high value on hospitality, and that precludes the kinds of social (non)-interactions with the checkout girl in Woolworths, which is why you get invited in to the carpet shop to drink tea and exchange photographs before you start the bargaining. It's an entire way of life that has not been treated kindly by modernity. Mohammed Atta's parents were relocated from ground level to highrise, and subsequently he wrote his thesis on the medieval architecture of Aleppo. And people we know here had relatives and offices in the very buildings destroyed in New York. It's all connected.
Posted by Timne on July 8, 2009, at 18:47:08
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Sigismund on July 8, 2009, at 16:51:14
> I was lucky enough to go to a particular session at a writers festival where a banker had who had just written a book on banking was speaking. She had interesting things to say about the Chinese way of doing banking, which we will see more of.
>
> I know Islamic practice places a high value on hospitality, and that precludes the kinds of social (non)-interactions with the checkout girl in Woolworths, which is why you get invited in to the carpet shop to drink tea and exchange photographs before you start the bargaining. It's an entire way of life that has not been treated kindly by modernity. Mohammed Atta's parents were relocated from ground level to highrise, and subsequently he wrote his thesis on the medieval architecture of Aleppo. And people we know here had relatives and offices in the very buildings destroyed in New York. It's all connected.I'm certain my friend would not want to go out like atta did.
Posted by Phillipa on July 8, 2009, at 19:13:53
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 14:21:02
So how is your friend today? Any better? I'm thinking of is it a him or a her? Phillipa and bet you mean NYC.
Posted by Sigismund on July 8, 2009, at 19:24:00
In reply to would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 3:38:40
>Could that turn into another class and scale of leaving without notice?
Yes.
I had a friend in school who was able to leave. He left before the end of school because he wanted to, which surprised me because I never assumed my feelings had anything to do with anything else, much less something that might be acted on. So, he left and then had the usual problems (O God, I'm gay, now I'm on drugs etc etc) and he had the extreme misfortune to go to a particular biological shrink and ask for help. He must have been back and forth with this bloke for a bit at least. Anyway he made the further mistake of more contact with the doctor who said 'Well, come in for a bit of ECT', but on the way my friend jumped out of the taxi, over an overpass and in front of a moving train. And that's when I reflected that he was always able to leave, and that in itself is a risk factor.
Posted by Sigismund on July 8, 2009, at 19:33:33
In reply to would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 3:38:40
>When people check out, do others always see it coming, or are the ones who do it successfully sometimes the ones who are able to succeed at other things, as well, but apply their skills to that terminal task?
There was a case here many years ago. The head of the Reserve Bank and his wife, having reached the age of 68 or something were both found dead by suicide. I doubt they were depressed. Certainly there was no suggestion of that. They just felt they had seen their best and now it was time to go. Plenty of people were concerned by this, of course. I doubt the psychiatric profession wants to allow such sentiments to go unmedicated.
Posted by Sigismund on July 8, 2009, at 19:38:07
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Sigismund on July 8, 2009, at 19:33:33
And every second really old person I've spoken to has said in effect
'just don't get old'
and that's not depression talking.
It's much more a realistic assessment of what getting old is really like.
Posted by Timne on July 8, 2009, at 23:15:06
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers*** » Timne, posted by Phillipa on July 8, 2009, at 19:13:53
> So how is your friend today? Any better? I'm thinking of is it a him or a her? Phillipa and bet you mean NYC.
Phillipa,
If I knew how to assess this situation, I could offer an honest answer. Physically, my friend is healthier than I've seen in 20 years. I want to avoid gender references, mostly to protect my friend's privacy.
A couple things in this thread show us why it's so difficult to assess this friend. Scott pointed out that people on AD meds are especially at risk in the 3rd or 4th week -- when the meds might really be making a difference but underlying motivations are still present. More motivation coupled with terminal underlying motivations can be a dangerous mix, apparently. It might not just be meds -- there's an old folk story about kicking one demon out, but not replacing it with anything, so seven demons move in to fill the void. It's a very old parable, so the "getting better makes you worse off" syndrome might be a perennial part of the human condition, and meds might just be one of many things that can trigger it.
Then Sigs referred to a person who was able to leave school (as was my friend) and then later checked out for real, and how the ability to step out of untenable situations can be a risk factor.
My friend is still in free fall. The person is working on some challenging tasks, but the economics of the tasks are risky. They must be completed, all the same. Sometimes a challenge like that can keep a person occupied. I see the person pursuing opportunities to add more structure to the daily routine, and to set at least some direction for a mid-range future, but that's the luck of the draw and the economy is currently pppoor.
My friend is also relating some very specific self-realizations about integrity. Why some kinds of intellectual integrity matter more to some people than others escapes me. Maybe it's the way they were raised. The person seems to be saying "if I can't have an honest life, maybe I can have an honest..."
As in the experience Sigs cited, I think this person would go over the railing (did you know a person of my friend's weight would be traveling almost 120mph after falling 600 feet?) before the person would accept ECT or any of the other offerings that look only at the individual's biochemistry but not at the social context and the personal history.
This person is honestly trying to stabilize, but that ability to leave -- especially when there has been a pattern of saying let's deal with this or I'll go -- that's just an unsettling element in this person's history, which is probably why I inquired here about it. But this isn't a jobs board, nor a find-business-partners board, nor a sell-work board, so that part of it is probably beyond the kind of support offered here. My friend needs social support. If some sort of purposeful and productive social structure emerges in that life, our world -- and I -- will get to enjoy a little while longer living with an exceptionally unique and mission-oriented individual. It seems the dice are still tumbling for my very soulful, caring and able friend.
Thanks for asking.
Posted by Phillipa on July 9, 2009, at 20:09:20
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers*** » Phillipa, posted by Timne on July 8, 2009, at 23:15:06
So has this friend just started on antidepressants? I wonder how long person has been on them and if the person is having side effects or getting more energy. Sounds like the person might have a plan? If so maybe this person should see someone In Real Life? I don't know what do you think? Yes economically the country is a mess. Phillipa
Posted by Timne on July 9, 2009, at 23:14:13
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers*** » Timne, posted by Phillipa on July 9, 2009, at 20:09:20
> So has this friend just started on antidepressants? I wonder how long person has been on them and if the person is having side effects or getting more energy. Sounds like the person might have a plan? If so maybe this person should see someone In Real Life? I don't know what do you think? Yes economically the country is a mess. Phillipa
Based on available clinical research about known contraindications, I think that to prescribe any of the psychotropics marketed as anti-depressants to the person I know would almost certainly be certain homicide, as would giving large doses of sugar to a diabetic. I'm not saying the drugs are generally dangerous for anybody, or for any class of people. I'm saying clinical research indicates they pose a more lethal hazard to my friend than does my friend's contemplation of an exit strategy, and only because I understand the unique situation my friend represents.
The person's clear recognition of the danger these drugs pose to one in the person's particular position, coupled with warnings from the person that those drugs would almost certainly lead to death in the person's very particular situation (and none other -- I'm only talking about my friend, and some similar past cases cited in peer-reviewed clinical research) would provide a solid basis for a large damages award if the person's survivors were left with a record of flawed efforts to intervene despite my friends specific and articulate warnings. My correspondence here could even be called as evidence that the person recognized and was known to warn others of the perils drug use would pose in the person's particular situation if the person allowed doctors to prescribe drug use as a solution. I believe at least one person who would survive practices law, and could establish a secure future with the earnings from such a lawsuit, but I don't think my friend would allow such a situation to arise, unless court ordered to do drugs as a putative medical remedy.
My friend recently decided to stand up for the person's own integrity, and for the integrity of economic activities the person was asked to engage in the workplace. In the nation where this person lives, that alone is practically suicide. In that nation, most people are expected to don one of a few socially accepted roles, while independent thinkers become usually become integrated into the worlds largest per-capita captive population, which that particular nation happens to hold in prison camps scattered across the nation.
The process of standing up for integrity cost the person jobs -- which the person left voluntarily. The process also involved a fitness regime. Physically, the person is healthier than ever, and mentally the person is as clear-headed and happy as I've seen. The person seems to be approaching the critical juncture with head up, back straight, shoulders erect, feet firmly planted on the ground, a heart full of contentment and no place for such a life on this earth. Surely a court order to do drugs -- or simply the process of trying to pigeonhole this person under the rubric of "depressed" -- would seem an invitation to exit. If the world refuses to accept the person as is, the person is quite content to carry out the bargain as the world at large negotiated it.
The person is making efforts to contact whatever reasonable and real people such as may be available and trustworthy. There seems to be a shortage of persons available to befriend my friend who are interested in friendship outside of economic and class-oriented contexts. The particular middle-class culture my friend knows practices a notion of "professionalism" that prohibits honest dialogue in favor of pretense. Nothing like the world you and I know, I'm certain -- this friend of mine lives in such a strange and far away place we couldn't possibly identify with such an alien culture or feel less positive about ourselves for identifying with that very different situation because it's nothing like the much better world you and I live in where most personal conflicts can be resolved and most social difficulties that aren't easily resolved can be treated as mental health problems by well trained professionals who pretty well understand human needs. Nobody here could possibly feel put down by my friends outlook, because my friend is looking at world so far away, it's nothing like the one anybody here would know anything about. In fact, that world that so frustrates my friend is so far away, it might not even be real, so how could anybody feel put down by my friend's experience in a world nothing like ours? We could no more feel put down by my freinds analysis than we could feel put down by a fictional character's analysis of life on a far away planet. Different worlds. In our world "it's all good." Nothing like my friends unfortunate situation where it's not all so good.
My friend's perception is that most of those who would offer "professional" assistance primarily want to convert the person to their various mystical, authoritarian belief systems, or use the person to validate their institutional roles as caregivers. I sincerely doubt any of the salaried mental health professionals in the person's area would have anything to offer, and unless the "caregivers" were ones who helped formulate an economic survival plan rather than a mental health intervention, I'm certain their intervention would most likely erase any chance of survival my friend might have.
But no, my friend does not have a plan. My friend does have military training, and in the nation where my friend served in the military, part of the training included methods for effective suicide, along with instructions from a government employee requesting such an act be performed effectively or not attempted. I don't think being a military veteran with formal training in suicide methods is a lawful cause for involuntary commitment in the nation where my friend lives.
Posted by Phillipa on July 10, 2009, at 0:24:02
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 9, 2009, at 23:14:13
Are you saying that he might be involuntarily committed? For doing what? I don't think I would like that place much myself would you? Phillipa
Posted by Timne on July 10, 2009, at 0:38:05
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers*** » Timne, posted by Phillipa on July 10, 2009, at 0:24:02
> Are you saying that he might be involuntarily committed? For doing what? I don't think I would like that place much myself would you? Phillipa
No, I wouldn't like such a place. I'm really sorry I ever came to see that world through my friends eyes. My friend encourages me to disable my technical capacity to view his world, as in don't watch that show anymore. I can understand why my friend wants to check out. The biggest risk of involuntary commitment presented is because of my involvement and discussion here. I've asked that my membership here be terminated, but so far the only reply I've received indicates the only way I can end my membership here is to die. I fear the administrators will force me to continue to be involved by "blocking" me for some unimaginable infraction so that I won't be allowed to gracefully remove myself from this forum by terminating my membership, although I was not informed that my name would remain on the membership roles indefinitely when I consented to participate in this clinic. I do have a plan for that potential event, involving post-mortum publication of a notice that I am no longer a member here when, eventually, someday, I die, as all people naturally do.
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