![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 38. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 3:38:40
You saw the warning. Let's just say I'm talking about a close friend.
Are people always sad, despondent and vegged out when they schedule their own dirt-nap? This person has long contemplated the individual prerogative to schedule their own exit. It seems though, that the prerogative isn't related to emotional condition - - it's more economic. Like when there's no food to eat, why bother maintaining the eater? Then scheduling that thing becomes just another chore, like washing the dishes or taking out the recycling.
I know some the pharmacological treatments that have recently been required to include warnings to this effect seemed to have something like that going on. They would motivate people to get up off the couch, but the newfound motivation sometimes turned out to be terminal; they acted on ideas they only contemplated in other circumstances.
So this friend quit some jobs in an effort to improve the social milieu that was contributing to despair. Seems to have worked. The person is healthier looking than ever, but broke and not particularly interested in pushing any harder to make a place in the economy. And it's not like the person doesn't work hard - I think the complaint is that others in the workplace don't care to keep up, and tend to openly resent the person's hard work, even when it is an obvious public service.
Whatever's behind that is probably beyond this post. It's basically a talented individual who is disappointed with seeing talent misused. That's probably part of the terminal trend - if nobody else cares for the best, the person isn't interested in delivering the mediocre. This person has some strong talents, creatively and rhetorically, and harbors very altruistic ideals and hopes, but there's really no place for that, and the economy doesn't reward that particular set of aspirations.
So, question - if the person is talking about how surprised others will be because the person is so much better, emotionally, having cleared the plate of stressful work situations then improved the diet and physical condition, then checked out, is that an indicator the person might decide to do that before consulting anyone else? I recall the person tendered several warnings to the former employers, who ignored them because they liked the person's work and did not believe the person could possibly be serious about leaving such a good job that the person did so well. Pattern was, offer to leave on notice, company refuses to accept, leave without notice. Could that turn into another class and scale of leaving without notice?
The person I discuss - hypothetically, if you must - isn't one who can easily be captured, detained and reprogrammed, nor one likely to self-admit for psychological care when the person is quite confident their problems are social and economic. My take is that any effort to forcefully intervene or any effort too far afield from simple social services or economic cooperation in some income-producing venture, might push the person toward the brink if not over. The question is really just one of when to pull the switch, and this person quite confidently says nobody has any use for the life, it's been longer than average on a world-wide scale, though not by Western life-expectancy, and that some day might be the time to fade away.
Reason I ask about the happy-and-well thing, that's really how the person is. It's not like mania at all -- just solid, grounded day to day living -- making friends, socializing, mingling -- but snubbing economic participation when it requires social performance the person disdains, and the person is probably not interested in doing another go-round in squatters camps. When people check out, do others always see it coming, or are the ones who do it successfully sometimes the ones who are able to succeed at other things, as well, but apply their skills to that terminal task?
Posted by SLS on July 7, 2009, at 6:27:38
In reply to would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 3:38:40
> You saw the warning. Let's just say I'm talking about a close friend.
>
> Are people always sad, despondent and vegged out when they schedule their own dirt-nap?Tricky.
I do believe that people have the right to exercise autoeuthanasia. However, I also believe that most suicides do have their origins in feelings associated with depression (sadness, demoralization, despondency, helplessness, hopelessness, etc.), even though the decision reached during this period is carried over to a period without experiencing depression.if a decision made during this period is carried over into a more centered mental state. Rational suicide. Rational to whom? Should we allow every single person who decides upon this action to complete it, regardless of mental state of rationale? I don't think so.
> This person has long contemplated the individual prerogative to schedule their own exit.
Me too, although I have avoided doing the research necessary to formulate a painless plan. I guess I also have the prerogative to not take such a dangerous step until I really decide that it is necessary.
> It seems though, that the prerogative isn't related to emotional condition - - it's more economic. Like when there's no food to eat, why bother maintaining the eater? Then scheduling that thing becomes just another chore, like washing the dishes or taking out the recycling.
Now, you see, that doesn't seem rational to me, although I am sure it does to this person. (I am exercising my prerogative here). I would sooner place the individual in contact with a social outreach program to help you take care of such a simple, although distressing, dilemma rather than cheer him on to exercise his prerogative.
> I know some the pharmacological treatments that have recently been required to include warnings to this effect seemed to have something like that going on. They would motivate people to get up off the couch, but the newfound motivation sometimes turned out to be terminal; they acted on ideas they only contemplated in other circumstances.
This is why the third and fourth weeks of drug treatment for depression can be so dangerous. There is a recovery of mental and physical energy without a commensurate improvement in outlook. Sometimes, psychotherapy is needed to repair the damage that depression leaves in its wake. Outlook might not change at all without it. There may also may be unresolved issues that contributed to the induction of depression that must be reconciled in order to place less psychosocial stress on the brain.
It is all about outlook.
- Scott
Posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 10:33:45
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers*** » Timne, posted by SLS on July 7, 2009, at 6:27:38
Thanks for a thoughtful and experienced reply.
The "place the individual in contact with a social outreach program" suggestion seems reasonable and proper advice, but that's where my friend seems to get the rhetorically bruised forehead typical of repeatedly running into a brick wall. This person is located in one of the healingest places you can imagine. If you asked 100 people where to go in the U.S. for psycho/spiritual healing, the largest plurality at least would likely pick this person's location. And there's nothing there. Lot's of middle-class people and wealthy retired movie stars teaching self-help and "follow your bliss" but nobody who will sit down with someone and concur that modern life in the Western world alone was enough to traumatize this person to death, and then assist them in planning and executing a plan for survival.
In such a milleau, decisions to leave stressful environments for cultural and social reasons are seen as evidence of decisions made during emotional downpoints rather than as likely reactions to untenable environments. Because the person doesn't slobber on their shirt enough to appear disturbed and at risk, these coiffed healers tend to see the person more as a borderline sociopath rather than one who sees the folly -- and inherent egotism -- of so many self-help plans, which, like AA, tend to demonstrate no better odds than chance (in controlled studies) that they actually improve the lives of most who take part.
Conventional social outreach doesn't have anything to offer this person. The comparison that comes to mind is that of Sophie Scholl, the Berlin student and White Rose member whose one flamboyant excess during a leafleting operation in Nazi occupied Germany cost her life. It was practically suicide. She could've not pushed the leaflets off the balcony in the Psych building and not made the scene that got her caught and killed. She would then likely have survived to leaflet another day, and potentially, could have survived the war. But where in hell (I mean that rather literally, in her case) could she turn for "social outreach?" She had enough sway over her peers to turn them back toward the Psych hall for more leafleting when they all otherwise had a clear chance to exfiltrate safely. Those peers couldn't reach her, and the next tier of social outreach would be too close to the other side for her to take seriously at all. I mean, who's she to turn to for guidance -- the Nazi Youth counselor?
Had she survived, she might've been unknown. From the West, we might've said "our fathers/brothers/sons gave their lives and all you gave was a few leaflets?" She didn't do it with the intent of getting killed when she tossed the handful of leaflets into the air in the halls of the by-then crowded Psych building as classes let out, but she certainly had lost most appreciation of any value in a life where she could not pursue that which mattered for her. Was she emotionally disturbed, a hero, or both?
I fear the only thing that will save my friend's life is economic and social mercy at the personal level -- and that's not exactly widely available, if at all -- for that person, in this capitalist culture. Instead, the person finds "mercy" in the form of "mentors" and "healers" who would convert the person to Zen Buddhism (along with Asian authoritarianism) or New Age mysticism (along with Western-style spiritual authoritarianism) - or to Christianity, with good-old-fashioned European-style authoritarianism.
What the person really needs -- probably all the person needs, is a place to spend life, with some ground around where the person can appreciate non-human life -- life not so mediated to reflect the image or ego-interests of humankind. But that seems exactly what this credit-oriented occupying culture seems intent on imposing -- life in a primarily human-mediated environment at the expense of any other natural order.
Short: there is not social outreach program for dissidents. Maybe it's just my ego, but I believe our world would be better off with this dissident alive than dead, but I feel it slipping - nay, I see it slipping away.
So, with that follow-up in mind, do any "social outreach programs" come to mind that don't involve referrals to the state mental health system or the national social-security disability system, and that are capable of treating social dissidence as something other than a pathology?
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on July 7, 2009, at 11:05:39
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers*** » SLS, posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 10:33:45
In short, giving advice, while going through a bad/worst time in life, to help other's. I mean, in those words, just a samaritan? to help other's, because maybe you have experienced it in the past, and learned about it. Who ever is going through it, you can help, if you understand, their situation.
Alot of times, mental collpases have happened, and you have to reboot, due to stress, or alot of things.
I have alot of negative throughts, I have to deal with them, it's just adapting, and looking for another way to go, when all advice cannot help. Your own-insight, to help your "indiviudel" spirit/ego, due to what other's don't understand.
This was just a drop by, your post are intresting.
rj
Posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 11:27:40
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on July 7, 2009, at 11:05:39
Thanks for that Rock,
Sometimes a reboot works, but other times, I've had to replace a hard-drive and yet other times -- well, I have that one old Mac laptop in the drawer and it never rebooted.
Helping others has always been my opiate of last resort, and sometimes the first, second and third choice, too. But when helpfulness becomes the problem? That seems to be the case with my friend - started offering more profound help and found out certain property owners would rather people not have access to that kind of help.
Posted by SLS on July 7, 2009, at 12:01:38
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers*** » SLS, posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 10:33:45
I think I have a better understanding of your friend's (and your) situation now. You can sure write!
Your friend has no place to be.
Perhaps a monastery of some sort?
- Scott
Posted by fayeroe on July 7, 2009, at 12:11:19
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 11:27:40
When you talk about the location where your friend lives and how hard it is to get realistic help..it causes me to think that your friend might live near Santa Fe, NM> If that is the case, I would suggest that the friend investigate Albuquerque as a place to find other like minded souls and perhaps find some relief from the feelings of wanting to check out.
If I am correct on the location, I lived north of SF for ten years and know exactly what you are talking about when you mention "new age" and whatnot.
Being an observant person of human behavior, it is hard to find someone in that location who isn't into some "mystic healing" position and on top of that you have the movie stars and "sons and daughters" who perpetuate the mystic crap by buying into it. Been there and done that. (watched, not participated)
Albuquerque is the only location in that area where a person could probably find a rational group of people to associate with. Being a university town, there are more levelheaded dissidents there than there are north.
If I have the location wrong, I'm sorry. SF came to mind immediately when I read about the "new age" groups and who lives there. Sedonia is the only other place that comes to mind right now.
Pat
Posted by Phillipa on July 7, 2009, at 12:25:29
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers*** » Timne, posted by fayeroe on July 7, 2009, at 12:11:19
And I was thinking southern California. Phillipa
Posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 14:13:59
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by SLS on July 7, 2009, at 12:01:38
> I think I have a better understanding of your friend's (and your) situation now. You can sure write!
>
> Your friend has no place to be.
>
> Perhaps a monastery of some sort?
>
>
> - ScottIn a tribute to folk-music legend Leonard Cohen, he describes his years as a practicing, ordained Buddhist monk. "I was gracious to everyone, but I hated everybody."
I've found my analysis of authoritarian belief systems interferes with my integration in religious communities. Practical authority - exigencies of the day like planting, harvest and weather, that I understand.
"Roshi said...?" That doesn't ring nearly as true in my mind. An egalitarian community would warm my heart. Or I could use my profound writing skills to explain why they all died -- except no publisher wants to tell the story.
Posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 14:20:04
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers*** » Timne, posted by fayeroe on July 7, 2009, at 12:11:19
> When you talk about the location where your friend lives and how hard it is to get realistic help..it causes me to think that your friend might live near Santa Fe, NM>
I know that area well, and it typifies the milieu to which I refer. Thing that draws people to that place especially is not just the ambient mysticism, but also the deep, grounded indigenous culture - not just "aboriginal", but also a long-term largely hispanic culture as old as that which sprang from Plymouth rock, sans urbanism.
Having retreated to such an environment, do you think a person could then find solace in a more urbanized environment?
Posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 14:21:02
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers*** » fayeroe, posted by Phillipa on July 7, 2009, at 12:25:29
> And I was thinking southern California. Phillipa
And certain enclaves in the north coast.
Posted by fayeroe on July 7, 2009, at 15:25:13
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 14:20:04
> > When you talk about the location where your friend lives and how hard it is to get realistic help..it causes me to think that your friend might live near Santa Fe, NM>
>
> I know that area well, and it typifies the milieu to which I refer. Thing that draws people to that place especially is not just the ambient mysticism, but also the deep, grounded indigenous culture - not just "aboriginal", but also a long-term largely hispanic culture as old as that which sprang from Plymouth rock, sans urbanism.
>
> Having retreated to such an environment, do you think a person could then find solace in a more urbanized environment?
>
>
> I lived in Pilar, south of Taos, for ten years and I enjoyed it very much. A Spanish village of 125 people and I was worked very hard to fit in and practice gardening, and such, as the villagers did. I wasn't i nterested in the "superficial life" in Taos or Santa Fe.I learned to do things by the moon and I listened to the elders. I frequently would visit a man who lived near the mesa and we might sit in silence for 3 or 4 hours. My closest neighbor was the mother of the man I dated. Onita was in her 80s and taught me many things about myself.
At that time I was working on a book on indian rodeo and that was a bone of contention several times with the man I dated while there. He was 1/2 spanish and 1/4 apache and 1/4 navajo. The Spanish are outspoken in their feelings towards anglos and indians.
I found a group of like minded women, who think out of the box, and we opened our own gallery. In our group we had some women whose lives were very balanced. We started meeting twice a week and I can honestly say that I learned more about myself in ten years than I had learned in the previous 45.
It was a time of great healing and growth for me and I believe that your friend could benefit from that space. The thing to watch out for are the people who literally dropped out of another society and moved there. For the most part those people are very bitter and, in a way, lost.
One more thing, I owned a bed and breakfast and I believe that being around so many different people from different cultures and environments helped me sort my priorities out in a positive manner.
Pat
p.s. When I moved back to Oklahoma, I went to our ranch and stayed there (2+years) until I felt that I could integrate myself back into a space that was going to be faster and more hectic. I now live in a very small town in Texas. I would go back and do everything the same if I felt that it would be beneficial.
Posted by SLS on July 7, 2009, at 15:29:49
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers*** » SLS, posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 14:13:59
> > I think I have a better understanding of your friend's (and your) situation now. You can sure write!
> >
> > Your friend has no place to be.
> >
> > Perhaps a monastery of some sort?
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> In a tribute to folk-music legend Leonard Cohen, he describes his years as a practicing, ordained Buddhist monk. "I was gracious to everyone, but I hated everybody."
>
> I've found my analysis of authoritarian belief systems interferes with my integration in religious communities. Practical authority - exigencies of the day like planting, harvest and weather, that I understand.
>
> "Roshi said...?" That doesn't ring nearly as true in my mind. An egalitarian community would warm my heart. Or I could use my profound writing skills to explain why they all died -- except no publisher wants to tell the story.
I was thinking more of some of the Eastern philosophies.
- Scott
Posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 16:01:35
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by SLS on July 7, 2009, at 15:29:49
> > > I think I have a better understanding of your friend's (and your) situation now. You can sure write!
> > >
> > > Your friend has no place to be.
> > >
> > > Perhaps a monastery of some sort?
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> > In a tribute to folk-music legend Leonard Cohen, he describes his years as a practicing, ordained Buddhist monk. "I was gracious to everyone, but I hated everybody."
> >
> > I've found my analysis of authoritarian belief systems interferes with my integration in religious communities. Practical authority - exigencies of the day like planting, harvest and weather, that I understand.
> >
> > "Roshi said...?" That doesn't ring nearly as true in my mind. An egalitarian community would warm my heart. Or I could use my profound writing skills to explain why they all died -- except no publisher wants to tell the story.
>
>
> I was thinking more of some of the Eastern philosophies.
>
>
> - Scott
East of Tibet? Taoist or Hindu maybe?I find plenty to admire in their experience, but the religious experience, especially when exported from a land where it's been disrupted often clashes with some of my personal experience.
intentional community rings a bit more true, but...
Has anyone else noticed that our bodies are made of Real Estate? Creation story: on day 1, god called the local realtor to find a piece of land. Working through his realtor, he reached good deal with the seller, called a banker and got a loan. After closing the deal, he shaped the Real Estate into a hominid shape, breathed a second mortgage into it, made us sign a deal promising to forever pay for what we are made of and here we are?
Posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 16:16:59
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers*** » Timne, posted by fayeroe on July 7, 2009, at 15:25:13
> > > When you talk about the location where your friend lives and how hard it is to get realistic help..it causes me to think that your friend might live near Santa Fe, NM>
> >
> > I know that area well, and it typifies the milieu to which I refer. Thing that draws people to that place especially is not just the ambient mysticism, but also the deep, grounded indigenous culture - not just "aboriginal", but also a long-term largely hispanic culture as old as that which sprang from Plymouth rock, sans urbanism.
> >
> > Having retreated to such an environment, do you think a person could then find solace in a more urbanized environment?
> >
> >
> > I lived in Pilar, south of Taos, for ten years and I enjoyed it very much. A Spanish village of 125 people and I was worked very hard to fit in and practice gardening, and such, as the villagers did. I wasn't i nterested in the "superficial life" in Taos or Santa Fe.
>
> I learned to do things by the moon and I listened to the elders. I frequently would visit a man who lived near the mesa and we might sit in silence for 3 or 4 hours. My closest neighbor was the mother of the man I dated. Onita was in her 80s and taught me many things about myself.
>
> At that time I was working on a book on indian rodeo and that was a bone of contention several times with the man I dated while there. He was 1/2 spanish and 1/4 apache and 1/4 navajo. The Spanish are outspoken in their feelings towards anglos and indians.
>
> I found a group of like minded women, who think out of the box, and we opened our own gallery. In our group we had some women whose lives were very balanced. We started meeting twice a week and I can honestly say that I learned more about myself in ten years than I had learned in the previous 45.
>
> It was a time of great healing and growth for me and I believe that your friend could benefit from that space. The thing to watch out for are the people who literally dropped out of another society and moved there. For the most part those people are very bitter and, in a way, lost.
>
> One more thing, I owned a bed and breakfast and I believe that being around so many different people from different cultures and environments helped me sort my priorities out in a positive manner.
>
> Pat
>
> p.s. When I moved back to Oklahoma, I went to our ranch and stayed there (2+years) until I felt that I could integrate myself back into a space that was going to be faster and more hectic. I now live in a very small town in Texas. I would go back and do everything the same if I felt that it would be beneficial.
>
>
That's a wonderful story. If you'd been Islamic, or generally sympathetic to Talmudic and Sharia principals, and had not enjoyed the benefit of holding a mortgage on a business things might not have gone so well.That area is littered with the broken dreams, and the abandoned hand-built homes, of people who would have gone "back to the land to get their soul free" but weren't accepted by the millionaires and their friends who sang that song because the singers and the idealist listeners had different economic ideals.
The enclaves there didn't last nearly as long, nor never took as deep root as those West Coasties who went with Steve and Ida Maye to Summerset. That effort looked like a newborn star when it flashed through the atmosphere but it landed as a cold, hard rock, like so many other shooting stars. For some reason -- maybe it was longer growing seasons, better soil and more complete genocide in that area which left less cultural conflict to be resolved -- but...
...do you feel me Fayroe? I don't need to get myself back to the garden. *We* have got to get *our*selves back, and I'm feeling godawful alone in a desert that could be blossoming with beauty. Sitting down with a banker just doesn't seem to me to be part of the trip, but refusing that sit-down is definitely a factor in the social isolation
that my friend suffers.
Posted by Sigismund on July 7, 2009, at 18:15:29
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 16:01:35
>Has anyone else noticed that our bodies are made of Real Estate? Creation story: on day 1, god called the local realtor to find a piece of land. Working through his realtor, he reached good deal with the seller, called a banker and got a loan. After closing the deal, he shaped the Real Estate into a hominid shape, breathed a second mortgage into it, made us sign a deal promising to forever pay for what we are made of and here we are?
Is that the price of having a saviour?
Posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 18:57:46
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Sigismund on July 7, 2009, at 18:15:29
> >Has anyone else noticed that our bodies are made of Real Estate? Creation story: on day 1, god called the local realtor to find a piece of land. Working through his realtor, he reached good deal with the seller, called a banker and got a loan. After closing the deal, he shaped the Real Estate into a hominid shape, breathed a second mortgage into it, made us sign a deal promising to forever pay for what we are made of and here we are?
>
> Is that the price of having a saviour?just a mixed metaphor drawing on my own experiences. The situation did seem to arise out of centuries during which professing to have a savior was mandatory.
Posted by SLS on July 7, 2009, at 19:59:23
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 18:57:46
Perhaps it makes sense to build upon what is rather than to lament what isn't.
Only from what is can come what isn't.
It must be a very empty experience to do otherwise.
- Scott
Posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 22:32:44
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by SLS on July 7, 2009, at 19:59:23
> Perhaps it makes sense to build upon what is rather than to lament what isn't.
>
> Only from what is can come what isn't.
>
> It must be a very empty experience to do otherwise.
>
>
> - Scott
I at least appreciate the intent to support or counsel.
On emptiness, I'm amazed that so many people counsel to pursue the mind of an empty vessel as a spiritual goal, yet try to treat emptiness as a disorder at the same time. Ifmy friend
could just empty the vessel without painting in colors of Tibetan royalty or Hollywood mysticism, the person might not be considering emptying the vessel of red corpuscles entirely.
Posted by SLS on July 8, 2009, at 5:30:36
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 7, 2009, at 22:32:44
I guess everyone finds his own path to spiritual fulfillment. I just happen to find existence to be the source of my spirituality. I find spirituality in logic. I also find it in intuition. The spirituality that I have found for myself helps me to integrate both of these into a the Gestault. I see introspection as a vehicle for me to better understand myself and the world that I sense around me. I am spiritually fulfilled despite the lack of certitude.
It works for me.
I wouldn't know what to suggest to someone who is spiritually empty. It took a very long time, and an extremely tumultuous road travelled for my seeking nature to find spiritual resolution.
Every now and then, as happens to most everyone, I have been asked, "What is the meaning of life?" I usually respond quite simply that life is its own meaning.
The beauty I see in the order of the Universe, despite entropy, helps to reinforce my spiritual being, and encourages me to nurture it so that it may grow. At the moment, I feel that I have a firm root system upon which to do so.
It works for me.
- Scott
Posted by Timne on July 8, 2009, at 10:25:06
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers*** » Timne, posted by SLS on July 8, 2009, at 5:30:36
> I guess everyone finds his own path to spiritual fulfillment. I just happen to find existence to be the source of my spirituality. I find spirituality in logic. I also find it in intuition. The spirituality that I have found for myself helps me to integrate both of these into a the Gestault. I see introspection as a vehicle for me to better understand myself and the world that I sense around me. I am spiritually fulfilled despite the lack of certitude.
>
> It works for me.
>
> I wouldn't know what to suggest to someone who is spiritually empty. It took a very long time, and an extremely tumultuous road travelled for my seeking nature to find spiritual resolution.
>
> Every now and then, as happens to most everyone, I have been asked, "What is the meaning of life?" I usually respond quite simply that life is its own meaning.
>
> The beauty I see in the order of the Universe, despite entropy, helps to reinforce my spiritual being, and encourages me to nurture it so that it may grow. At the moment, I feel that I have a firm root system upon which to do so.
>
> It works for me.
>
>
> - Scott
>Scott,
Your approach to spirituality seems very similar to mine. I have to support your claim that it works for you, only if out of Senatorial Protocol, but, well, you are here and you're on record here discussing your experience with the same sort of dilemma, if not the same dilemma, as do I.
I'm not convinced my spirituality nor my emptiness is the problem. My problem might be more related to reactions to my emptiness. My problems (like those of my at-risk friend, and the character in a book I'm researching [in the event I need to sue a P-doc, a ISP and a local police department for sending armed, politically motivated psychological police to my door instead of to my friend's door]) are primarily social, economic and cultural, not psychological or spiritual. The use of psychiatric medicine or psychological claims to neutralize political, cultural and social dissidents is widely recognized by such advocates as Amnesty International and the like. It just doesn't happen in the land of the free. Wherever that is.
The dilemma for people such as myself, my friend and characters I might create for the sake of discussion, is that the primary response in Western communities is to treat these dilemmas as spiritual and psychological rather than as practical, economic and social.
Imagine sitting, empty of desire, in a room full of millionaires who just returned from their eight-day retreat, all boasting about the profound emptiness they achieved and how their newly recharged "emptiness" will pay off in financial terms as they return to their busy lives. They've emptied their minds of all the conflict between what they say they are and what they are. I ask "Can I just sit, today. I need to work on something personal." "No, we have work to do, and by the way, I'm raising your rent, because I need to pay for my trip to Nepal on a 747."
Logic, intuition, mere existence -- these all nurture me, but they are too much or too little for the "enlightened" I've kept company with lately.
Mere existence -- that's narcicistic self-satisfaction (at least according to plentyoffish's algorythm, which draws on major psychological theories of our time). People satisfied with a lowly economic status are not to be trusted by standards I've encountered in the workplace. They lack ambition, and no matter the value of the logic or intuition they offer, if they don't want to use it to advance their financial position, it's probably an artifact of pathology, at least according to popular capitalist culture.
Logic -- "you need to be more sensitive to people. Bring them along -- you don't have to confront them with facts (in the workplace where the facts are the substance of our business)" Intuition -- "well we all have intuition. The problem is your intuition says something different than mine. Don't bring your personal preferences to work, please. And by the way, what's your sign. I want to read your chart to see why you claim to have intuition at all."
Logic and intuition reveal to me the authoritarian basis for these behaviors. So I pursued work where logic and truth were supposedly the foundation. What I found was explicit lies perpetrated by the very institutions we rely on to keep our collective narrative on a logical path.
Sophie Scholl didn't die because she had a spiritual problem, or because she was "empty." She died because she dared confront a problem 99.99% of us will agree was a problem worth confronting with all of our nation's resources, and with the lives of some of our best and brightest.
Frankly, I'm fed up. I'm fed up that, 8 years after the attacks, the vast majority of Westerners can't articulate the fundamental difference in approaches to finance between the culture from which the attackers were recruited and that championed at the specific location and by the very businesses that were attacked. Those aren't spiritual or psychological dilemmas for me, except that I need the psychological strength to live in a confused, illogical, misdirected and self-serving social milieu.
Posted by SLS on July 8, 2009, at 14:19:08
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 8, 2009, at 10:25:06
> > I guess everyone finds his own path to spiritual fulfillment. I just happen to find existence to be the source of my spirituality. I find spirituality in logic. I also find it in intuition. The spirituality that I have found for myself helps me to integrate both of these into a the Gestault. I see introspection as a vehicle for me to better understand myself and the world that I sense around me. I am spiritually fulfilled despite the lack of certitude.
> >
> > It works for me.
> >
> > I wouldn't know what to suggest to someone who is spiritually empty. It took a very long time, and an extremely tumultuous road travelled for my seeking nature to find spiritual resolution.
> >
> > Every now and then, as happens to most everyone, I have been asked, "What is the meaning of life?" I usually respond quite simply that life is its own meaning.
> >
> > The beauty I see in the order of the Universe, despite entropy, helps to reinforce my spiritual being, and encourages me to nurture it so that it may grow. At the moment, I feel that I have a firm root system upon which to do so.
> >
> > It works for me.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
> >
>
> Scott,
>
> Your approach to spirituality seems very similar to mine. I have to support your claim that it works for you, only if out of Senatorial Protocol, but, well, you are here and you're on record here discussing your experience with the same sort of dilemma, if not the same dilemma, as do I.
>
> I'm not convinced my spirituality nor my emptiness is the problem. My problem might be more related to reactions to my emptiness. My problems (like those of my at-risk friend, and the character in a book I'm researching [in the event I need to sue a P-doc, a ISP and a local police department for sending armed, politically motivated psychological police to my door instead of to my friend's door]) are primarily social, economic and cultural, not psychological or spiritual. The use of psychiatric medicine or psychological claims to neutralize political, cultural and social dissidents is widely recognized by such advocates as Amnesty International and the like. It just doesn't happen in the land of the free. Wherever that is.
>
> The dilemma for people such as myself, my friend and characters I might create for the sake of discussion, is that the primary response in Western communities is to treat these dilemmas as spiritual and psychological rather than as practical, economic and social.
>
> Imagine sitting, empty of desire, in a room full of millionaires who just returned from their eight-day retreat, all boasting about the profound emptiness they achieved and how their newly recharged "emptiness" will pay off in financial terms as they return to their busy lives. They've emptied their minds of all the conflict between what they say they are and what they are. I ask "Can I just sit, today. I need to work on something personal." "No, we have work to do, and by the way, I'm raising your rent, because I need to pay for my trip to Nepal on a 747."
>
> Logic, intuition, mere existence -- these all nurture me, but they are too much or too little for the "enlightened" I've kept company with lately.
>
> Mere existence -- that's narcicistic self-satisfaction (at least according to plentyoffish's algorythm, which draws on major psychological theories of our time). People satisfied with a lowly economic status are not to be trusted by standards I've encountered in the workplace. They lack ambition, and no matter the value of the logic or intuition they offer, if they don't want to use it to advance their financial position, it's probably an artifact of pathology, at least according to popular capitalist culture.
>
> Logic -- "you need to be more sensitive to people. Bring them along -- you don't have to confront them with facts (in the workplace where the facts are the substance of our business)" Intuition -- "well we all have intuition. The problem is your intuition says something different than mine. Don't bring your personal preferences to work, please. And by the way, what's your sign. I want to read your chart to see why you claim to have intuition at all."
>
> Logic and intuition reveal to me the authoritarian basis for these behaviors. So I pursued work where logic and truth were supposedly the foundation. What I found was explicit lies perpetrated by the very institutions we rely on to keep our collective narrative on a logical path.
>
> Sophie Scholl didn't die because she had a spiritual problem, or because she was "empty." She died because she dared confront a problem 99.99% of us will agree was a problem worth confronting with all of our nation's resources, and with the lives of some of our best and brightest.
>
> Frankly, I'm fed up. I'm fed up that, 8 years after the attacks, the vast majority of Westerners can't articulate the fundamental difference in approaches to finance between the culture from which the attackers were recruited and that championed at the specific location and by the very businesses that were attacked. Those aren't spiritual or psychological dilemmas for me, except that I need the psychological strength to live in a confused, illogical, misdirected and self-serving social milieu.
I think my way is simpler. I really am a very simple man. For me, I find that there is enough complexity in life not to complicate it further by devoting my intellectual energies into designing a universe composed of Ptolemeic epicycles.I found that when I operate with too many intellectual filters, not enough light comes through.
I don't know if any of this makes me a narcissist, but if it does, it seems that I have found a way (acceptance) to be happy and economically challenged at the same time.
- Scott
Posted by Sigismund on July 8, 2009, at 15:40:13
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 8, 2009, at 10:25:06
>the vast majority of Westerners can't articulate the fundamental difference in approaches to finance between the culture from which the attackers were recruited and that championed at the specific location and by the very businesses that were attacked.
This is getting interesting. You are talking about Sharia banking? (Allow me to just remark in passing on the difference of attention given to MJ as against the latest Afghan wedding party blown to bits. What are they doing walking around anyway?) Some largish percentage (10 or 15%?) of the world's banking is Sharia based. As I understand it they go in for joint ventures.
Posted by Timne on July 8, 2009, at 15:49:00
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Sigismund on July 8, 2009, at 15:40:13
> >the vast majority of Westerners can't articulate the fundamental difference in approaches to finance between the culture from which the attackers were recruited and that championed at the specific location and by the very businesses that were attacked.
>
> This is getting interesting. You are talking about Sharia banking? (Allow me to just remark in passing on the difference of attention given to MJ as against the latest Afghan wedding party blown to bits. What are they doing walking around anyway?) Some largish percentage (10 or 15%?) of the world's banking is Sharia based. As I understand it they go in for joint ventures.
>
>Okay, the rest of you give me some companionship and at least a notion of alternative ways of thinking, but Sigismund gets a point for giving me a reason to live another day. "Sharia banking." First time I've heard that term (or read it in response to a clue-prompt) since I learned about it.
And to top it off, you managed to do it without insulting the 10 to 15 percent of the world that embrace that particular economic morality. The usual is "yes, but they have a way to get around it." and "yes, but that's just to keep them in their place under rich sheiks" as if the vast majority of mortgage holders in Western countries aren't similarly beholden, many locked into jobs with which they have deep ethical concerns but which they cannot leave because of their debt burden.
Yes, Sharia banking. Where do I sign up? (hint -- Fanny Mae has Sharia-compliant instruments)
Posted by Sigismund on July 8, 2009, at 16:51:14
In reply to Re: would I do it when I'm happy? ***triggers***, posted by Timne on July 8, 2009, at 15:49:00
I was lucky enough to go to a particular session at a writers festival where a banker had who had just written a book on banking was speaking. She had interesting things to say about the Chinese way of doing banking, which we will see more of.
I know Islamic practice places a high value on hospitality, and that precludes the kinds of social (non)-interactions with the checkout girl in Woolworths, which is why you get invited in to the carpet shop to drink tea and exchange photographs before you start the bargaining. It's an entire way of life that has not been treated kindly by modernity. Mohammed Atta's parents were relocated from ground level to highrise, and subsequently he wrote his thesis on the medieval architecture of Aleppo. And people we know here had relatives and offices in the very buildings destroyed in New York. It's all connected.
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